Any thoughts on this question? I have a pair of M80 V2's in a room 16.5 x 13.4 feet and I cannot seem to get them to sound the way I would like. My amp is a NAD C390DD 150 wpc so I don't think power is an issue.

My gut feel is that I should be using stand-mount speakers to get the source more focused, ideally point-source.

When you say they don't sound quite the way you like, can you describe what it is you are hearing/not hearing? could be helpful to know what your room is like... is it carpeted or do you have hardwood floors, curtains, bare walls etc? could be a room issue.

Sound is very good, but seems lacking in presence. Like the event is happening down the hall. I'm not good at describing this. It's better/worse depending on program. Orchestral or choral programs are perhaps worst. Jazz vocalists ensembles are pretty good. I've used room eq wizard REW to measure and tune lows. Room is pretty soft. Hard floors about 2 feet around outside with low carpet in center. Walls a bit bare on upper 2/3 rds. Stipled ceiling. No special room treatment.

Maybe I'm just being picky. I don't have a lot of experience auditioning to go on. Need to hear a pair of KEF blades on monoblocks

You could try toeing the speakers in/out slightly as well as moving them out from the wall. Sometimes it's the source mat'l. I've also got M80V2's and certain recordings sound great while some are lacking.

Backs of speakers are 15" from front wall, cenetred in room, 6.5 feet apart. toed in so tweeters would direct slightly behind my head. LP is about 7.5 feet from spkrs, equidistant.

My local sources are mostly ripped cds to flac. I have a few higher res downloads. Also listen to Spotify premium.

I appreciate conversing with you.

Listening to ChanChan on Buena Vista Social Club, I felt performers were too far away, but loud enough to not want more volume. Soundstage was a bit narrow. Moved speakers so no toe-in or out and I think it has improved. A few weeks ago, everything seemed right of center. I thought something was wrong with the hardware. Then I looked right and saw the patio doors with exposed glass. When I put some couch cushions there, problem solved.

This is hard to get right.

Anyway, my main question remains ... can speakers be too big for the room. My M80s have 6 drivers vertically mounted and only 7 feet from my head. Will they resolve from there or should I be back 14 feet ... impossible in this room.

Thanks to anyone with an opinion to share

Hello,

I have a pair of M80s and a pair of M22s, the latter on a pair of 22-inch stands, the M80s outflanking the M22s, in a room somewhat larger than yours.
I prefer the M22s (which run with an EP500 subwoofer) to the M80s, but only because the M22s are easier to ideally position for a really good soundstage, width and depth. Both sets of speakers are musically very neutral, of course, and with the subwoofer running, it's hard to distinguish between the two pairs using the A/B switching, except that I prefer the M22s because of the soundstage placement, which is higher than the subjective image from the M80s, which seems closer to the floor (I'm particular about the soundstage height.)

When I used to work for Axiom, I use to advise against getting M80s for smallish rooms, only because they are big and heavy and harder to ideally place than bookshelf speakers. It would seem there's something amiss in your installation, because the M80s set up properly and ideally placed, are capable of a very wide deep soundstage, something that my M22s yield but my M80s do not because of their less-than-ideal placement in a room thats 13 x 20 x 9 ft. I sit about 8 to 10 feet back from both sets of speakers.

I do think you're sitting too close to your M80s. They don't really "open up" until you're well back from them, so I'd experiment with other placements that let you sit 10 or 12 feet back from them. Otherwise, you may find a pair of M22s on stands would deliver the soundstage depth and width you're searching for.

REgards,
Alan

use to........ what the....... exactly when did this occur?

The answer is it is possible to have speakers that are too large for your room but that's not your problem.

Place them along the length of the room instead of the width. Place the back 2 feet away from the front wall, space them 9 feet apart and sit 8 feet away on the diagonal. Treat the first reflection points on the sidewalls and floor at least - ceiling if practical.

My guess would be that yes, they are too close together. My M80s are more like 8-10ft apart, not toed, and I definitely don't have that effect. My room is a fair amount larger, though, at ~ 19x20ft with an open hallway and large opening to the kitchen.

Alan retired a couple of years ago.

Think I posted twice ... sorry ... still learning use of this forum.

At one point I had the speakers positioned along the long wall. Since re-configuring, we have added furniture that might not work in that config, but I will definitely consider it.

May I ask what reasoning/experience leads you to this recommendation? Also, by "sit 8 feet away on the diagonal" do you mean "Sit at a position 8 feet away from the fronts of each speaker"?

Thanks

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Before receiving your most recent inputs, I set the speakers a bit closer together and aimed them straight ahead (no toe-in) and it made quite an improvement.

Using the room simulation feature of REW (and the sub crawl), I concluded that the best place for the sub was halfway along one long wall, pretty much in the floor-wall intersection. But I must admit I don't know exactly how to interpret room mode presentations in REW graphics.

I'm going to try various of your suggestions and get back to you. But I do find my present config. suitably improved that it will be my "return to" position if I make it worse.

Alan, I appreciate your advice about the possibility of M22's. I've been wondering about that possibility also. But for now (and for my wife) I'm going to try to keep my wallet in my pocket.

On that subject though, I've been eyeing Paradigm Prestige B15 bookshelfs. Any thoughts on that? Probably bordering on heresy in an Axiom forum.

My experience with speakers is a bit thin. Before the M80s I had PSB Alpha (bookshelf smalls with passive sub) and before that, a pair of Advents from the 70's.

If you are going to pass axiom up at least go for the "best" in this category and price you are considering.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-performa3-m106-loudspeaker#Sr8IMh6er6v4vvuL.97

In pondering your recommendation, I'm guessing that the desire is to get the speakers further apart but that would put them too close to the corners.

Hi Solardad,

My retirement was a gradual transition. Three or four years ago, I began working half days for about a year, around the time I turned 70, then went into full retirement.

Of course I still hang around the Axiom forums from time to time since audio-video is an ongoing interest and has occupied a good chunk of my professional career, starting in the early 1980s when I became editor of Sound Canada magazine, which later became Sound&Vision Canada magazine.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks, I had not seen that review. Will keep in mind.

Having recently subscribed to Spotify, I find it interesting to read speaker reviews for the music the reviewers use to test the unit. I dial the track up on Spotify and try to compare with what I'm hearing, bearing in mind of course that Spotify is missing some (hopefully not all) of the significant content for such comparisons. It's an interesting way to encounter new artists as well.

I'd check the phase of the speakers.

Tim,

2X6 has a point. If the speakers are out of phase, it could produce the effect you describe, as music happening "somewhere down the hall."
While you're at it, check that the gold links between the woofer and tweeter speaker binding posts are secure and connected.
Make sure all the drivers are operating. You can do that for each speaker by using a 9-volt battery and touching the positive and negative leads of each speaker wire to the terminals on the battery while you put your ear close to each driver. You should hear a "click" when you connect the positive and negative leads to the battery terminals (you won't damage a driver by doing this). Do it for each of the six drivers in each M80. If you don't hear a click from each driver, you can assume that something is wrong with the driver or a speaker wire inside the enclosure has come loose.

Speakers are in phase. I alternated reversing wires on one side while pointing speakers towards each other and putting my head between. Max. bass was on red-to-red. I've always been pretty 'anal' about double-checking my wire connections. Interestingly, my amp has a menu choice for "Reverse Polarity" but I couldn't distinguish any difference when toggling. The manual describes it as:

Allow compensation for recordings that have reversed polarity.

Positive: A positive sine wave at the input remains positive at the output. Polarity is defaulted to “Positive” setting.

Reversed: A positive sine wave at the input is negative (inverted) or reversed at the output.

I don't understand what they're getting at. If it's happening on both channels what difference would it make?

I hope it's not all psychosomatic, but I believe my symptoms are not as bad now as originally described. The only thing I can recall doing is facing the speakers straight ahead rather than toed in. They are also a few inches closer together now. As Alan has pointed out, the M80's are not easy to manhandle around to try different options. And I've read a review where the reviewer felt that the M80's were quite sensitive to placement, (perhaps especially with earlier versions? mine is V2).

Anyway, I'm going to work with the ideas you've all provided so far in an effort to get the best sound I can. I think I may revisit placing speakers along the long wall and experiment a bit with that.

Alan, when you speak of using a 9-volt battery, am I correct in assuming that you do this at the terminals on the back of the cabinet, thus activating all drivers within and listening to each in turn for a click? Otherwise, I cannot see how I could do it driver at a time without getting inside the box or removing each driver in turn through the front. I'm pretty sure all drivers are firing just by listening in front of each, but maybe that's not foolproof.

When all is said and done, I think I might be better off with smaller speakers but I cannot afford to buy new ones at the moment (by 'afford' I include the spousal resistance There are a lot of nice bookshelf options available.

Cheers all !
Tim

P.S. It's an interesting observation that the sound seems like it's coming from "down the hall". That's mostly true for orchestral recordings. But I play amateur viola in a community orchestra. I can't say that I've ever heard a recording/system combination that could fool me into thinking the orchestra was right there in front of me. I wonder sometimes if someone is going to hear me play viola in front of them and say "that's not what a viola sounds like" and point out the difference with their mp3 recording.

Forget this. I found the answer in another area. I'll let you know when pics are available.

I have 3 pictures of my room I would like to upload but cannot find the link that "Forum Help" says should be visible. See Can I attach a file to my post? in help.

Here are 3 pictures of my room in case that helps.

1. Looking down the length of the room from the only open doorway (30" opening). Speaker fronts are 43" from side walls and 34" from front wall.

https://goo.gl/photos/KSLNYfLR2e9WoXLK7

2. Right side of long wall. Speakers here will straddle patio doors. The challenge in placing speakers along long wall will be getting far enough away from them. A couch behind the LP will put LP about 40" in front of the rear wall minimum.

https://goo.gl/photos/kCXyaEBTVTF6K8VR7

3. Left side of long wall.

https://goo.gl/photos/FbAsjen7PqpYGFBg9

Throw the two arm chairs out and move the speakers 1/3 of the way into the room. Space them so they're 30" from the side walls. Put that black chair 8 or 9 feet away from the speakers. Then enjoy.

Warning: once you do this, you may never put those two arm chairs back!

Are you using any sort of equalizer settings (like Audyssey or the like?)

Hi Tim,
Just a few observations on your questions and continuing quest to improve the sound from the M80s in your room.
Yes, to your question about using the 9-volt battery at the speaker terminals (or with a short speaker lead attached if it makes it easier). The battery will activate all the drivers but by putting your ear close to each one on the front baffle, you can isolate its operation from the other drivers.

That nonsense in the manual for your amplifier is just that: nonsense. Some years ago, there was a faddish interest in the notion of "absolute polarity" -- that if a recording showed reversed polarity, you should adjust your system to reflect that, thereby "hearing" the recording playback in the same sequence of compressions and rarefactions that occurred in the recording. There is no scientific support for this idea. Sounds are made up of rapid compression and rarefaction of air molecules, and whether it's a positive pressure change or negative one makes no difference to the perception of the
sound and its timbral quality by our ear/brain system.

Stereo is an imperfect illusion. To quote Dr. Floyd Toole, the Canadian scientist and pyschoacoustician, all you can hope for is a "plausible recreation" of a musical event. Stereo with good loudspeakers can manage small ensembles rather well -- think string quartets and the like, or a small pop group or jazz ensemble. But a large orchestral work with a massed choir and soloists? You get a suggestion of the experience but it's a far cry from the real thing. One of the intrinsic limitations of stereo is that the two front loudspeakers fire all the musical energy plus all the reverberant energy at your ears from the front, whereas the reverberant information should come from the sides, as it does in concert halls and other live venues. You might consider adding a surround facility to improve the illusion. Dolby and dts both have effective systems to extract reverberant information from 2-channel recordings and re-direct those sounds to side speakers in a 5-channel configuration. I do much of my classical listening using Logic7, a proprietary system from Lexicon, which is owned by Harman. I'm sure there would be objections about additional speakers from your spouse, but I assure you the "plausible illusion" is greatly enhanced by multi-channel playback of a variety of recordings. (It doesn't do much for dry studio multi-miked recordings; live recordings, choral, classical, opera and jazz benefit the most.)

Nice to know you play the viola. I studied violin for many years and played in several local orchestras (Woodstock, Ont), and the U. of T. symphony.
Of course, our quest to improve the illusion in our homes is what makes this hobby fun.

The PSB Alphas were nice little bookshelf speakers, not in the same class as the M22s or the M3s, but pretty neutral overall.
And the Advents in their time were very good.

Ken C has a point. I am not a fan of Audyssey and other auto-EQ systems (nor is Ian C., the founder of Axiom). They have some utility in smoothing out bass response, but they can make good neutral loudspeakers like the Axioms sound bad. So turn them off and listen to the M80s unsullied by electronic manipulation of the M80s' excellent smooth frequency response. You can use it later on if you wish. (Audyssey does have the ability to make lousy speakers sound significantly better.)

Also, I'd ignore any advice about applying absorptive panels to "the first reflection points". This will diminish the envelopment and spaciousness of speakers like the M80s. You are not trying to turn your living room into the control room of a recording studio, with ultra-absorptive panels everywhere. Normal furnishings of most rooms, with rugs and the like, provide an ideal mix of reflective and absorptive surfaces.

I've known Kevin Voecks (the designer of Revel speakers) for many decades since he worked for Mirage. He has designed some excellent speakers for the latter as well as Snell and Revel. But keep in mind that Revel is a "luxury audio" division of Harman, and the Revels are aimed at a carriage-trade market, with carefully positioned prices for that market.

Although many audiophiles have difficulty accepting this, sound quality and musical accuracy do not correlate with price. I have heard various Revels and they're excellent, but there is no reason to believe that a smallish 2-way bookshelf speaker from Revel will be superior in sound quality to Axiom's M22.

I've not heard Paradigm's B15, but it seems it's a further evolution of the excellent Paradigm Reference Studio 20, at a much higher price. I own a pair of the Studio 20s and they are almost identical to the M22s, except for a slightly greater bass emphasis and a bit less overall linearity.

Regards,
Alan

Ken, the short answer to your question is "No", but I'm going to give the longer version in my reply To Alan Lofft's subsequent post. You should find it nearby. Thx.

Alan, thanks for your carefully considered reply. I feel very privileged to have your assistance, and that of the others who've taken the time to assist me. And I am taking all advice into consideration, but not necessarily acting on them all (one cannot, since in all such things, some options are mutually exclusive).

That's interesting about the 'polarity reversal' topic. When NAD came out with the C390DD, I believe it was another manifestation of NAD's approach to bringing higher-end technology to customers on a stricter budget. So the C390DD is perceived as being a 'black box' offspring of the M2. So I suspect that the polarity reversal menu item trickled down from the M2. Another, to my mind, less that truly useful feature is that on the back of the C390 there are 2 pairs of speaker binding posts. But they are not for "Speaker A / B" selection. Instead they are for bi-wiring. I don't know what to make of this attention to $8,000 speaker cables and $400 power cords. But I do know that when I get my system to the point where these are the next steps in the pursuit, I intend to pack it in and start listening for the joy of it (not that I don't already!).

Although I really like my C390, I do have some issues with features that are non-essential to it's DAC/amplifier premise.

Regarding equalization, to which Ken C referred, I do not use any active components in EQ. I have used Room Equalization Wizard (REW) to calculate filter values. REW is not an active player in the signal path. It is something like Odyssey in that using a computer and mic attached to the amp, one plays sweeps through the system.

REW running on the computer then calculates filter values to compensate for room factors. My amp permits adjustments at 6 fixed frequencies, 40/60/90/120/180/240 hz. Once I've done that, I enter those values into my amp and put REW aside. The values REW calculated are in the range of +2 / -6 dB for my room, and when I toggle EQ in/out, the sound is better with EQ enabled. Playback does not involve REW.

Of course, the values REW calculates depend upon where the speakers are located in the room and where the microphone is positioned (i.e. the intended listening position) at the time the sweeps / calculations are performed.

It is true that each time I change something in the room, I should redo the REW tuning with EQ set off on my amp so that REW can calculate new values. I haven't been doing so for minor adjustments like moving the LP back or forward a few feet or removing toe-in.

I'm enjoying this conversation, so if it continues I will not be disappointed. On the other hand, I think my original question has been answered along these lines:

Yes, speakers can be too big for a room. But in my case the M80's should be quite workable in my room. In other words, I am not pursuing something that is impossible under my circumstances.

All of this makes me feel good in having chosen the M80's and the C390DD.

btw, IMHO the C390DD outfitted with the DD-BluOS plug-in module is a beautiful means of going all-digital. Controlled by the NAD-supplied tablet app, one has access to locally stored audio files up to 192/24 resolution, streaming "radio" stations and streaming on-demand sources including Spotify and Tidal.

Cheers everyone!
Tim

Tim, since the people who deserve an opinion have weighed in at length, I now feel free to contribute nothing useful to you.

My room is a foot longer than yours. I had M60's for 4 years. They were truly perfect for the room in every way. I now have M100's. They are perfecter.

My rules of thumb are, "Do they fit through the door, and can two of them and me all fit in a room at the same time?"

It's actually an old Rock and Roll guitar amplifier joke, but I think it's a universal truth.

That's so simple ... why didn't I think of that? ;-)

Thanx Bob

Mojo, you did it! Today I rearranged the room pretty much as you suggested. I was here a few months ago, but had less furniture in the the room, speakers closer together, and before the DD-BluOS module. Right now I'm listening to Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon. Beautiful! The reflection points are pretty much neutralized by the fireplace on the left and a soft armchair on the right. I'll post a couple of pictures tomorrow to show you all the difference.

Thanks all my new friends here! I hope I can someday return the favour. "That Great Gig in the Sky" is calling me to pay attention.

That's terrific! Now hopefully anyone living with you won't object. If they do, it really is time for them to go .

Any room can be turned into Audio Nirvana. It's a question of time and money. In my experience, small rooms are easier to deal with.

Check out one of my audio rooms. It's the smallest at 800 ft^3. I have another that is 1920 ft^3 and yet another at more than 4000 ft^3. The sound gets worse as my room size increases. It gets worse because I haven't spent the time nor money to treat them properly.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxTe-z9ctC7NazI4YUpMR3hpQ2s&usp=sharing

For the room above, sound panels, sound panel location, speaker and chair position tweaking were made possible by Serenity_Now. Prior to his help, I had terrible bass macrodynamics, muddled microdynamics, bloated mids, unfocused imaging, and a narrow soundstage. Between my 1920 ft^3 and this one, I had to boost the gain by almost 11 dB to achieve the same sound pressure with the same audio gear and the sound panels in the room. After the tweaking, I am down to a -9 dB gain compared to the large room. Micro and macro dynamics are absolutely outstanding, soundstage is more than adequate, imaging is spectacular and the sound is smooth and even across the entire band. It's the most satisfying I've heard in this house. A big thanks to you out east, Trev. This room is bringing me so much joy. More joy to come after I add my recliner in there .

BTW, my Denon set the bookshelves to Large in this room. I also found that a 60Hz xover and LFE+Mains works best. The only thing lacking now in this room is compression-free speakers when I turn it up LOUD. I'm into native drum music and those Dreamcatcher drivers just can't keep up even if I cross over at 80Hz in LFE only mode. I'd love to try the M3 V4 or M22 v4 or maybe even Bryston's Mini-T.

Note the "diffusers" and "absorbers" throughout the room.

Here are some pics of my room after repositioning. There's probably one too many armchairs, but the room serves multiple uses.

https://goo.gl/photos/d8J2CERoQVQiJEFy6

You'll notice two NAD amps in the rack. The lower one is an older purely analogue 7000 that I use for phono playback. Upper amp is C390DD which has no analogue inputs as configured. At the moment I change banana plugs to the Axioms depending on source.

Thanks to all for advice, with special thanks to Mojo for the suggestion to put speakers along long wall.

Tim

P.S. I never had a lava lamp in the 60's-70's ... call it a post mid-life moment.

Nice! Try removing the speaker covers. On my M80v2 (and audiobytes), there is a noticeable difference.

Double cool stuff.

Yup, My movie room in progress is 15.6 x 11.6 x 8 . I am going with M22 for fronts. thinking V160 for centre.
I am not sure if I am going 11.2 or Atmos 7.2.4.
If I go Atmos, not sure why yet but will be M22 , Vp160 and 4 M22 in wall or on wall. ANd thinking of getting the Def.Tech Atmos as they are angled and I guess designed for Atmos.

If I just stay status quo and just upgrade the pte/pro Anthem AVM60 to 11.2 , I will go with M22 Front and wides, VP160 Centre, for qs8's and M2's on wall for heights.

I can't see why I need these M80s in a room that small.
Not sure yet on the subs but it will be dual EP500, SVS Ultra Sealed, JL Fathom E112. Just really got to figure out if the JL's are worth $1000 more than the SVS's or if the SVS's are worth $1000 more than the Axioms ?

In a room that small the Axiom's are more than ample as are the SVS, I think the Fathom is just way overpriced for the few extra db and slightly lower FR range.

I am in a room almost the same size. My M80v3 are 9.6 apart centre to centre and 11" off the back wall. Sound stage and imagining are great

Thanks, I knew I read this somewhere before. I am fighting with this room and the M80s and asked if I should raise them higher to better blend with the tv. When I was upstairs in a bigger room I was 15 ft from the speakers and the imaging was different, specially with the VP180. Not so much imaging, but hust cannot seem to get the sound right with the screen. I am now only 9 - 10 ft away and I do not have much more room to go back.
But, I feel that the M80's just sounds like imaging is at the bottom of my screen.

going to order the M22's for this room

My M80s are 8 feet away from me on the diagonals and I sit so me ears are in line with the bottom tweet. Theys almost up against the back wall and though I'd love to pull them out, I can't.

The sound is right where it should be a foot or so above them and usually in the plane of the speakers so not too far forward or too far back and they imagine pretty good given they're shoved back along the wall.

Something's pooched in your set-up because all this stuff about them M80s sounding knee-high to a grasshopper is weird!