Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System

Posted by: craigsub

Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/10/19 10:05 PM

Hi Guys - We have a pair of almost 4 year old LFR-1100's. They are running in our high end, 2 channel system. We tried them as part of a 5.1 system, but later took the M50's back speakers and VP180 HP and combined them with the M100's in our main theater.

The reason for this is the 1100's throw such a large sound stage and a terrific image from any listening position that the center wasn't needed, and the rear channels were not quite up to the fronts.

With the introduction of the LFR-1100 actives, we are seriously thinking about running a 4.2 system with Dual LFR-1100 actives in the front, dual LFR-1100's rear, ADA-1500's all around (a total of 14 channels - 5 each for the fronts, 2 each for the rear) and a pair of EP800's for bass.

Ian and I have been emailing about the idea, and we are waiting for his thoughts on LFR-1100's for the rears along with the phantom center idea for movie use.

Most listening in this room is music, as most movies are on our 120 inch screen, M100/VP180HP/M50 system (with an EP800 for bass).

While this system will be expensive in "Axiom terms," compared to other high end systems, it's actually very affordable.

Any thoughts?
Posted by: brendo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/10/19 11:01 PM

True some speakers alone cost more than proposed system. Would very much enjoy reading your thoughts with such a super system. Your room could probably rival most concerts with so much power.

Would this room continue to be more music?
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/10/19 11:22 PM

Brendo - It would be more music. I have never had a music system that had 5 channel stereo that sounded good. The Pre/Pro is a Marantz 7703, which Ian thinks is a keeper.

It would be interesting to see (hear) if the system would make me a convert for the 5 channel music discs.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/10/19 11:32 PM

Craig, would the dual 1100s be stacked on top of each other?
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/10/19 11:35 PM

Lol ... Only you. laugh

The passives would be the rear channels, the actives in the front.

In the emails with Ian, he was fascinated enough to want to test two ideas:

1. Are the 1100's so good in the front that a center isn't needed for a great front stage?

2. How will 1100's handle being the rear channels? They would be placed so the main sides were facing the front of the room and the back sides the back of the room - mirror image to the fronts.
Posted by: brendo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 01:29 AM

Cool that's my wonder as well. How awesome could SACD\concert footage be? Would you daisy one of the channels? Isn't 13.2 the highest Denon/Marantz processing?

Isn't the proper placement plus Phantom center strategies enough for the 1100s center already?

Sorry so many questions. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Complete massive emersion. At a still in reality price. As opposed to some of the equipment you'd go too see at say Axpona and other shows.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 01:59 AM

I suppose I'll forever be etched in your memory as the Mad Stacker. smile

I don't have any thoughts about your ideas but since you will have so many speakers, you need to try stacking them. laugh
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 02:35 AM

BTW, I could be wrong but judging from the photos on the active LFR1100 page, it appears the LFR1100s are no longer angled on the back.
Posted by: Ian

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 09:46 AM

Hi Mojo,

The back angle is still there. It is hard to tell that from the photo though.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:46 AM

Thank you, Ian.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 03:11 PM

2.0 active first...
I have similar surround issues in my room. The rears compete with the front channels, running fronts alone sound the best for most content.
Even surround encoded material sounds correct/enveloping in 2.0/3.0.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 03:51 PM

Hmmmm...I see. I tried all kinds of rears for 7.1 and I can't hear them. I am very happy with 5.1 and side QS10s. I am also very satisfied with 2.1 with the v4.

Some songs do have more of a wow factor in 5.1. 2.1 sets the vast majority of the images in planes behind the speakers while 5.1 expands some images further to the sides. In some pieces, in 2.1, there are some wild effects where images come very far forward and sink back in as if the performer came closer to the audience and then retreated. With the M100s, some parts of Oxygene sound as if there are curved acoustic conduits between the tweeters and 5 feet forward and two feet up my sidewalls. Sound is sourced from the tweeters, goes into my sidewalls, comes out again and sinks back into the tweeters. In Radioactivity, puffs of highs come out of the tweeters and shoot 5 feet forward at the interface between my sidewalls and ceiling. I hear the puffs right at the interface.

The M5s don't make those effects but they have other benefits in that they acoustically disappear in my space. They are not as high fidelity as the M100s and they also have tiny 'nads to boot. The M100s plain out are more sensitive. The M3s acoustically disappear also but their fidelity is lower than the M5s. For some rooms and moods though, the M3s may be better than the M5s.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
Cool that's my wonder as well. How awesome could SACD\concert footage be? Would you daisy one of the channels? Isn't 13.2 the highest Denon/Marantz processing?

Isn't the proper placement plus Phantom center strategies enough for the 1100s center already?

Sorry so many questions. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Complete massive emersion. At a still in reality price. As opposed to some of the equipment you'd go too see at say Axpona and other shows.


The system would not be daisy chained, but rather a simple 4.2 with the center channel as phantom engaged. The Marantz easily allows this, along with running Audyssey XT-32 on the subwoofers alone.

With Active 1100's, break the speakers down as 1: 3 front firing woofers, 2: 2 front firing mid ranges, 3: 2 front firing tweeters, 4: 2 rear firing mid ranges and 5: 2 rear firing tweeters.

EACH of the 5 as listed above gets its own channel from an ADA-1500 with no passive crossover. Each is still a single speaker, getting the full range signal from the pre-amp.

This eliminates the "lossiness" of a passive crossover, and will result in what should be superior sound.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 10:34 PM

I think I now see what you are trying to achieve, Craig. A fully active system without having to resort to a fully active center. I don't know man. I love my 2.1 but not for movies.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 10:47 PM

I miss read your first post. I pictured 4 (2 pairs) up front...
Lol
4.0 all the way.
Maybe 4.1.4 with 4 800s.
Its not my money but I'd love to be there.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:03 PM

Mojo - With the 1100's, I had some fun with this. The VP180 was placed on the stands in the system, but not hooked up. I played several movie scenes, and asked various people what they thought of the center channel. They walked around the room, and declared it to be one of the best they had heard.

I then showed the unplugged speaker wires, and everyone was astonished.

Hopefully, Ian will soon do some listening tests of his own. The VP180 is a fantastic center - we are listening to one now with the M100's, and the movie soundstage is tremendous. I have just found the 1100's don't need a center.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:11 PM

LOL! I definitely can't achieve that here with my 100s, M5s or M3s. Music yes, movies definitely not!

Hmmm...if that's the case, folks can trade in their centers. Thanks for posting this. I don't think I ever saw this observation from you until now.

How about the low end. Any chance we might not need subs?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
I miss read your first post. I pictured 4 (2 pairs) up front...


Yes, Blair. That's exactly what I thought. That's why I was wondering if Craig was going to stack them. I know his ceiling is too low for that but I thought he was gonna knock a couple of holes through it for the sake of stacking science. LOL!
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:14 PM

We will always need subs. laugh
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:19 PM

Damn! I was thinking if I don't need the VP160 and the 800v4, I'd use the cash from those to trade up to active LFR1100s.

Craig, I want to know right now, man. Do your 1100s acoustically disappear like my M5s? My M100s do not. Not in my room.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:29 PM

The 1100's and the Ohm SSC-4900's both disappear. Both also take different paths to a proper omni directional sound stage.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:30 PM

Thank you, Craig. Do your M100s acoustically disappear in your room?
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:34 PM

They come close to disappearing, and without having auditioned the 1100's, I would have thought they were close to as good as it could get.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:41 PM

Hmmmm...I don't find that. The disappearing act between the M5s and M3s compared to the M100s is huge. Both of the others completely disappear. Both of those also disappear in my living room. It's likely due to some interaction with my room. Thank you.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/11/19 11:48 PM

Craig, sorry, I have one more question. The rear drivers of your 1100s are angled towards your side walls, right? I've often wondered what would be the effect if they were switched.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/12/19 09:34 AM

Mojo - they are angled. Reversing them would likely cause some issues with soundstaging. The DSP was programmed quite carefully, and with the idea of delivering a constant image regardless where one sits.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/12/19 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Hmmmm...I don't find that. The disappearing act between the M5s and M3s compared to the M100s is huge. Both of the others completely disappear. Both of those also disappear in my living room. It's likely due to some interaction with my room. Thank you.


Is your listening room some form of wood floor, either hardwood or carpet over plywood?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/12/19 12:26 PM

It is concrete with 10 oz under-lay and the finest balencia Berber money can buy. 5/8" drywall all around with Roxul insulation in walls and ceiling. 7'2" ceiling. Thanks again, Craig.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/12/19 12:44 PM

Have you tried experimenting with port blockers?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Axiom 2 Channel / 4 Channel Super System - 05/12/19 01:56 PM

I did and did not like how they sounded. I don't like the M3s and M5s with them either. However, I was not listening for acoustic disappearing when I blocked them. Out of curiosity, I'll have to try again.

In the blind listening blog, Ian talks about position error. He reminded me of that also. Unfortunately, no matter where I move them, I can't achieve a complete disappearing act like I can with the M3s and M5s.

I've noticed that as I lower the tweeters relative to my MLP, the M5s and M3s disappear better to the point where when the tweeters are 5" below my ears, they're completely invisible. Then it's like they project images behind them all across the front soundstage. I've had people go behind them to only find sphincters back there rather than drivers. It's interesting watching their behavior and amazement. Lol!