Hi guys - we have a pair of LFR-1100 Actives ordered with an ADA-1500-6 to go along with our current ADA-1500-4. The 4 channel will handle the three 6.5 woofers per speaker and the dual 5.25 inch rear mids.

The ADA-1500-6 will handle the The front mids and front/rear tweeters.

The current LFR-1100's will go to the rear speaker duty, and a Marantz 7703 pre-amp for processing duties.

A pair of EP-800's will anchor the system.

This is going to be FUN !!

Craig, will you be using a centre?

Mojo - no center in this system, although we will have the VP180HP with the M100's in our dedicated theater.

This system is more for high end, 2 channel.

I see. You know those triple woofers can handle peaks in excess of 5200W? In which case the 1500-4 will not bring them to their dynamic limits. Just sayin'. You'll have high end but not the highest.

Based on the expected compression as we near the excursion limits, we are giving up less than 1 dB of actual output against the maximum.

I can handle that.

I am sure at some point giving up that 1 dB will start to haunt you. Hee hee...snort!

Wow too cool!!!

Here on the West Coast anxiously awaiting your opinion, of possibly the dream system all the other manufacturers are attempting to build at the moment.

On the YouTube other manufacturers have been speaking of making fully active systems in the future.

There may be a support group if I can't take it.

A pair of actives with dual ADA-1500's plus a pair of EP800's has a retail of about $18,400. Ian will typically give a pretty good system price - let's call it $16,000.

For $15,000, one gets an omnidirectional system with some serious blind testing and science behind it. It will have a flat response curve from 12 to 20,000 Hz. It's Power Sound Curve will be something no one in the industry can touch.

And, it will have about 15,000 watts of pure power that never touches a passive crossover.

I find it quite sad that every few years, the major manufacturers are re-inventing their drivers and cabinets and all the tooling and processes that go with that. It's akin to re-inventing the wheel. Axiom makes the wheel rounder and bigger.

Congrats! I look forward to reading your impressions.

I'm making layaway payments toward a system upgrade of my own. I know it will include LFR1100 Actives and more amplification, but beyond that I haven't nailed down all of the details. I would like to reduce from four EP800s to two, just to free up space, and I'll make them both v4 horizontals. Maybe by the time I have enough of a balance to do the upgrades, there will be a new active omnidirectional center to complete the front.

Mazel Tov Craig on your new super potent dream system!

2x6, you're gonna go for it, right?

Craig, do you realize the active LFR1100s have a sensitivity of 94dB/W/m and are capable of 4800W peaks? This means with your amplification, they'll hit 121dB at your 12 foot listening distance!

CV - You are a patient man!

2x6 - Thanks. It won't be long until you go active.

Mojo - That's probably overkill, but overkill is good.

Awesome news!

Guys, I'm gonna join this party too! Then the only ones left out will be Randy and mattmanhasgonebutisbackandlurkingmorethanever...LOL!

Pretty soon I'll be in a position to open up my Axiom shrine to the public-at-large. Waaaahooooooooo!!!!

The new system is paid for (meaning the check cleared the bank, and the people of Dwight can rest easy tonight) and in production.

Got an email today that the technicians were smoking some fat bois, listening to Pink Floyd, and working on the cabinetry.

Now I need to order 400 interconnect cables.

I personally fail to see the point of going Active. As I know what levels that I am happy listening at, and what my current LFR produce, it would be a case of throwing money against a wall and seeing if it sticks.

Your LFR's are fantastic. You would have to experience a speaker without a crossover network in order to "get it" in terms of increased clarity, at all SPL.

That being said, you have one of the finest speakers in the world already.

Actually, I’m looking forward to hearing Craig’s review of these and if he thinks the difference is noticable.

There are two kinds of noticable ...
1 - a/b side by side (blind or otherwise) and
2 - a/b hours or days apart ... which I think is rather hard if the speakers are close

Now, I’ll ask you if you can’t tell them apart in test 2 ... does test 1 really matter for what you put in your home. I know ... just causing trouble me is ....

BTW ... being a big believer in active crossovers I’d have go with the active ... but if I owned an LFR already .... I’d ask that question ... unless I had to own the best

In theory, we could to an instant blind A/B test using the passive preamp box Debbie built for me 4 years ago. Yes, Debbie is that talented. The staff in Dwight is remarkable.

It would take a lot of setup, and interconnects, but it could be done.

To cool congrats Craig.

You make a lot of great points. When talking with Ian, we already had a 4 channel ADA1500-4 and a 5 channel ADA1000-5. Most people with LFR1100's have an Axiom amp already - or another multi channel amp from another company. We decided to use the ADA1500-4 for the woofers and rear mids, with the ADA-1500-6 for the front mids and tweeters. The 6 channel amp will see a lighter load, as the woofers are what need the most power. It's possible that an ADA1500-2 for the woofers and an ADA1500-8 for the mids/tweeters is an attractive package.

ANYWAY ... one's current amps should be factored into actives, even if you have Outlaw or Emotiva.

How much cleaner will the Actives sound? As you asked, can you hear a difference with one pair used for a week, then the other, in real world listening?

If yes, will Ian come up with either a retro fit or a good trade in allowance for those who want an upgrade but don't want to drop 10 grand?

From a size vs. performance perspective, my Audiobytes are quite amazing. I was listening to my 601 Series II at my FWB's today and then came home to do some office work. The contrast was shocking. I'm sure my desktop setup would sound even better with the v4 computer speakers but I'm not complaining.

I'm sure many of you out there think I'm nuts but there's something to be said for being able to drop a pair of speakers anywhere and getting great sound out of them. Like my Boses, I've never had to tweak anything with the Audiobytes. And the Audiobytes have higher fidelity than the Boses by far.

100 feet of Axiom speaker wire and 20 banana plugs have been added to the order. We also need to get 10 good interconnects.

Starting to get stoked here!

Mr. Chase, when are you expecting shipment?

No shipping date yet, but last week, the panels were all cut and the amp being built. It would not be a surprise if they shipped next week.

Soon Craig, very soon, the majestic voices of a hundred angels will pour forth from each driver and fifty more from each magnificent sphincter to blend into glorious hosannas in the highest. Your ears-brain will bathe in an effervescent acoustic field giving rise to an orgasmic rapture that will saturate and enslave your soul. The question is, do you possess the strength to resist the potent grip active linear frequency radiators have over man?

Mojo ... I am not sure if I can resist. But I can fart in your general direction.

I don't think your sphincter is in the same tier as the LFR sphincters. LOL!

Is that similar to 'phart'?...

TAM

Hey, we got Monty Python into the conversation.

Tam ... pharting is exclusive to Elephants.

And now Mojo can fantasize about elephant sphincters!

I already have 24 sphincters here to fantasize about. Wahahahahaha!

I nominate Mojo for the title of “Axiom Acoustical Poet” (provide he can keep it relatively clean). Any 2nd?

Is the wire still with smoked sheath or have they gone back to the black cover?

The official title would be Poet Reprobatus.

As soon as they arrive, I will let you know.

yes there is that side also.

While Craig pondered the profundity of my poetic prowess, I penned more prose to please proponents of my propitious productions.

Mojo proclaims poetic prominence while potentially pontificating preconceived possible plaudits for his preferred powered speaker ports.

Perfect!

A thread has been opened on Home Theater Forum. This thread will help give Ian some exposure for his high end design, so please join and post there when you can.

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/communi...-thread.362727/

Very good, Craig. Ian is so busy inventing stuff, he has no time to tweet his own horn.

We all know these are gonna sound so much more awesome than anything you currently have. The question on mattmanhasgonebutkeepscomingback's mind is are they 25 times more awesome than the M3s?

Actually - passive LFR-1100's are about the same money as 10 pairs of M3's. In reality, it would probably be impossible to make 10 pairs of M3's sound as good as a pair of LFR-1100 actives.

So ... mmhgbkcb needs Active LFR-1100's.

I was figuring in the price of amps and DSPs. Twenty five M3s, arranged in a pentagonal prism configuration, with each rectangular face comprised of five M3s, would be a masterfully magnificent and marvellously multilateral monolith of multipolar, mellifluous musicalization.

Ten ADA-1000-5's would be needed to drive the 25 pairs of M3's.Total price is $29,000.

This is multiplying money for muddy music.

A normal pentagonal prism has 7 faces but presumably Mojo envisioned leaving the floor and back "speaker free" and therefore he would have 5 faces with 5 M3's each for a total of 25 M3's, or 5 ADA-1000-5's (one for each face). However, unless each M3 needs a discrete signal, you could probably wire 5 M3's into each channel of an ADA-1500-5 for a mere $4,400.

Pablo, a normal rectangular prism has 7 faces but as I said, drivers would only be placed on the 5 *rectangular* faces.

Each driver would need an amp channel and DSP channel so Craig is right although an ADA-200-5 and ADA-50-5 is likely enough for each face for a 12 foot listening distance. The 200-5 would be for woofage and 50-5 for tweetage. The electronics could be housed inside the prism and accessed from the top face.

Axiom can build this today if it weren't for one barrier; poor Ian would be found swinging from the rafters after realizing it's humanly impossible to seamlessly integrate the responses from so many drivers. None of us want that!

If Ian moves from alcoholic beverages to heroin, it's our fault.

Is heroin the path to an octagonal prism?

No, but you may have a sudden urge to watch reruns of "Barney the Purple Dinosaur."

I love you You love me
We're a happy family
With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you.
Won't you say you love me too!

The Andrew Dice Clay Version ....

I love you ... You love me ... That's how we both got VD.

I am no longer infected.

You are a shining example of the miracle of modern medicine.

Thank you.

😂

I found pentagonal prism speakers at the link below. Quite a history to this company. They made a few different lines.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Soundwave.html

It is time for an update - The LFR Actives are mostly built. I also ordered an Axiom Air N3 and two N2's, and told Ian to ship them all at the same time. It will be quite the delivery! But - with my additional order, it will be a few extra weeks before anything ships.

Presumably the DSP will include twin sub pre-outs?

It will.

What cross-over management features will be available on said sub pre-outs and how shall said cross-over management be set?

It looks as if the LFR's will ship next week.

What finish did you get on the LFRs, Craig?

They are oak with the cinnamon accent to match the EP800's.

Oh wow!

Tried to link a pic ... links to a page don't work.

Yeah...Rich said that this morning. We were talking audio while you were sawing logs.

Ok ... I am done with this. Take it from here, guys. Do your own review.

Actually I think the talk was more color related then audio ... mojo was saying something about wearing a lime something or other while ogling red M3s or was it that the red M3 were wearing the lime something or other ... have to go back and reread that thread

Craig, just send me all your gear and I'll take care of the review. I'll post photos on my google drive. Rich, can you send me your lime mankinis to dress up Craig's active LFRs?

Hmmm, I think he wants all the toys

I tried imgur and that didn't work either.

Hey Craig. Check it out. I looked at Steve's (SRoode's) post that had an embedded photo. He used postimages.org and likely used the "thumbnail for forums" option. Real easy. No sign up required.

The review will be posted at Home Theater Forum, with additional conversation on Axiom's FB page. People interested in discussion of product welcome.

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/communi...-thread.362727/

Looking forward to it Craig.
On another topic, Are you planning on reviewing the air M3/M2?

The active LFR1100s will be the most amazing speaker Craig has ever heard.

I wonder if Ian put a gut punch switch on the active LFR DSP.

The LFR-1100 Actives have shipped, along with the ADA-1500-6 amp. We already have an ADA-1500-4 here.

In the Home Theater Forum thread, there is a dedicated page to post pictures from unboxing to finished install. There will be a lot of technical information provided as well.

The pictures and tech info will be in posts two and three in the thread.

The actives are only going to get better as Axiom increases the resolution of amplitude response measurements and equalizes resonances with improved parametric filters in the DSP. I remember Ian saying the summer student was going to work on that.

Awesome Craig anticipating your review. Four 1100s WOW!!!

Hoping all the sheeple on HTF don't go into their typical bashing of products they aren't fanboys of. Remembering the EP350 sub showdown it's hard for some to open their minds to something they're not already huge fanboys of.

Craig, it would be real interesting to test how these sound when they're placed against the front wall vs. into the room.

So, with the Active LFR1100s and Axiom amps, do you still need the DSP?

What happened to my mischievous penguin?

Yes. It's the DSP that provides the digital cross-overs to the driver arrays.

Tinypic is toast!

Craig, we've been waiting all day. What's taking so long to make up your mind about some simple active LFRs? LOL!

It was about 2.5 hours to do the initial set up - but everything is installed. There will be some housecleaning to be done and for now, the speakers are getting 23 hours of burn in before we start doing some listening tomorrow.

Craig, I think it's about time!

From the Home Theater Forum thread - the first report:

"Ok - The speakers are set up and the initial process of listening tests has started. Look for some pictures this weekend. The system now is an OPPO universal player, the Marantz 7703 pre-amp and the Axiom LFR-1100 actives. No processing is being used, and they are running full range.

Tonight, music auditioned was Roger Water's "In the Flesh" live SACD and the Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Session."

Both make for excellent review discs as both present some serious challenges.

"In the flesh" has an immense sound stage and in Pink Floyd fashion, all sorts of sound effects. "Trinity Session" is almost the opposite - it was recorded on the Church of the Holy Trinity in Toronto, and is all unamplified music using a single microphone.

First impressions are these speakers are extremely revealing and neutral. On Trinity, it is easy to place each instrument on stage and Margo Timmin's vocals are more "in the room" than with any speaker we have had to date. All the grandeur of "In the Flesh" hits hard and fast. The helicopter fly over as we enter "Another Brick in the Wall" lets one feel each blade thwap.

This is going to be several months of work - the speakers have already impressed, but there is a lot of tweaking to be done."

No subs yet, correct?

No subs - for at least a month.

Lucky, Craig. I've always wanted to experience what an amplifier, free of analog filters, can do to an electrodynamic driver. You have powerful amplifiers, capable of 9000 clean peak Watts, and 22 such drivers managed by digital filters that have had the hell engineered out of them with at least 30 years of progressive research behind their engineering.

Mojo ... a man of few words

The illusory trinity of the before, the now and the hereafter all coalesce into a single poignant moment. That moment, birthed via the loins of mammas Colquhoun and Welker, is also inexplicably entangled with one from, all places, Erie Pennsylvania. That one has been entrusted with participating in the moment and describing to less fortunate souls, the divine goodness that may arise from it. That one is a man by the name of Craig Chase, who gripped the moment and felt blade thwapping, hard and fast hits and Margot Timmin causing him to proclaim the active LFR1100s are already revealing, neutral and impressive.

Did I get that right, Rich?

I don't know about Rich, but personally, I won't be able to stifle a chuckle the next time I see Andrew and Ian and their respective "momma loins."

Wahahahaha! Just think about it though. Everything, and I mean everything, those two have done up 'till now has been about the active LFRs. It must be glorious for Ian to finally hear what his system sounds like freed from the inaccuracies of passive filtering and the deleterious effects of limited dynamics. This system can reach 120db+ at 12 feet away and the pristine detail preserved by the digital filters must render acoustical images like a hologram. This is not about us. It's about them.

I don't even have to hear it to know how worthy it is. I know from the v4 gear I have, these guys have reached a deity-like pinnacle of understanding about their systems and their associated emotional response.

I suspect Ian still won't be completely satisfied until he improves their accuracy with a quarter of a degree spinorama resolution on the Family of Curves.

Mojo, you have two choices:

Grow old waiting for Craig to review it OR
Mortgage the house and hear it yourself
We all know which one you want.
So get on it and sing your praise having listened to the darn things ...

P.S. the LFR active were created for the SPL starved, image obsessed, audio nut ... Anyone come to mind?

Yeah, Rich, I am image obsessed for sure. Not sure about SPL-starved but I have noticed some of the very well-recorded jazz and brass pieces I listen to need a lower (quiet) level of 85dBC at my 12 foot listening position. These same pieces have peaks of an additional 20dBC. To hit 105dBC at a 12 foot distance requires a lot of peak power with an electrodynamic speaker like the Axioms as I've reported before and many of us know.

Besides being able to hit the peaks accurately, great imaging also requires detail through a high resolution Family of Curves, precision and accuracy in processing and amplification and "low" noise. These three things lead to separation, or a blackness, between the images. The precision and accuracy and low noise is very, very difficult to achieve. Axiom has made a great start with pre-amplification digital filtering but I suspect this is certainly not the end. We might think that every enhancement from now on is a refinement but so is getting a new eyeglass prescription every couple of years. Look at the difference those new glasses make!

Craig, I hope you're at home...listening to them. I mean, what the hell, dude? How can you not?

I had a 9 hour day at the dealership plus a killer workout at the gym this morning - got in at 8:30 and spent an hour listening to a wonderful CD of Acoustic Guitar. These speakers bring the live feel to guitars. My son plays and teaches guitar, so I get to hear a lot live. It was a terrific decompression!

Isn't that dealership running itself yet?

When you feel more acquainted with them, let us know what happens between the notes and in betwixt the images? Do you hear silence and "see" blackness? If you close your eyes, do you eerily feel the images there, existing with you, aetherially?

Your eyes snap open...memorable.

As I've said a few times, I experience this with the M5s. I have not been able to replicate it with the M50, M3 or M100. I expect the active M5s will make this effect much sharper than what it is now.

Just finished the SACD of Dark Side of the Moon. These speakers are ruthless - they reveal just how old this recording is. In contrast to the Masters of Acoustic guitar, Dark Side lacks the depth and purity in the recording.

And that brings me to a new level in reviewing: This is the first pair of speakers that has me reviewing the disc instead of the speakers.

Yeah, I should probably send my LFR1100's to Mojo. I have a small living room, mostly windows and masonry heater, and (as of this evening) a truck full of LFR1100 actives to fit in there somewhere.

I'm not even totally sure where the amps and DSPs will go, let alone the speakers, and I don't play music all that loud.

But dammit, I'm looking forward to this. I haven't had a tri-amped system for almost 40 years and that's just too long.

That's so beautiful!

"I haven't had a tri-amped system for almost 40 years and that's just too long."

Uhmm...it's penta-amped.

You are both right - it has 5 amps, but only 3 different bandwidths for the drivers.

Craig, is Masters of Acoustic Guitar Laurence Juber - Altered Reality?

Craig, there's a very noticeable difference when compared to the passive LFRs, right? I mean you can be a total audio newbie and you'd notice it, right?

Yeah, true... it's more like tri-and-two-thirds-amped.

I'm going to need a lot of banana plugs... and 10 DSP-to-amp cables. Hmm... this may not come to life over the weekend. I'm thinking three stages:

- get everything sitting in the right place and measure
- order a bunch of stuff and wait for it to show up
- hook everything up and enjoy

Also thinking I should have ordered two Oppo UDP* players rather than one before they stopped production. What is current thinking re: decent CD players, or has everyone gone to PCs already ?

This is what I am using for cable and connects:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0076SFE9Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B006U3O566/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I can't help you with CD players. I use my PS3 and a Pioneer. The vast majority of the time I use Spotify Premium.

John - I have two OPPO's and also the Yamaha Aventage 1060 universal player. It's an excellent unit that, to me, matches the OPPO units.

Based on experiences with other people, I would have to say no. Some people just don't even try to listen and discern. Of course, I think red wine either tastes good or bad, and don't get into nuance. We all have our "things."

I will also try to get the artists on the disc - it's a compilation.

Wine IS either good or bad. LOL!

I remember when I first listened to my M80v2. I was coming from Bose 601 series II. The M80s were a revelation. What I heard was clarity and definition. That is all I could describe at the time. As time marched on, I realized there was more to the M80s compared to the Boses. I could hear distinct images at the centre, and speaker extremes and areas in between. I ended up listening to many different speakers at many different locations. As I listened more and more, I found I could locate sounds better. I think without knowing it, I trained my brain to discriminate between sound source locations.

I got to the point where I realized my M80v2 were the limiting factor in my soundstage enjoyment. This was right around v3 time when Axiom started to make a big deal of their spinorama. I started to read up on the spinorama and realized this wasn't much different than some of the work I was involved with over the years on combustible gas sensors. I also realized that running curves was one thing, running them accurately and with sufficient resolution was another. Interpretation was a whole different matter as was implementation in the form of drivers, cabinets, cross-overs. As I've said in the past, I decided to observe for many years by watching posts and reading what Ian and Andrew were writing. Frankly I was not surprised when the vast majority of those who upgraded to v4 made simple obsrvations like "there's more bass" and "it's clearer". There were very few others however who piqued my interest by describing the difference in soundstage. Those were folks who, whether they knew it or not, had trained brains.

What convinced me to give v4 fronts a try, more than 4 years after they were brought to market, was a post by I think a fellow named davenote, and emails with Craig. When I first listened to the M5s, I confirmed it was the M80v2 that was the culprit and not my brain. I saw images with the M5 that were impossible to pick out with the M80v2 and those images were not just across the stage but into it. Then I heard the M3v4 and realized that Axiom must have really had done a hell of a lot of work in the chamber because now I was seeing the same images from two different speakers. The images from the M5 were of course clearer.

Which brings me to now. I've trained myself with the v4 so well, they are now the barrier to greater resolution in the perception of holographic imaging. No doubt chucking out passive filters and replacing them with actives will make a difference, but will the difference rival my brain's location discrimination capability? I don't know what that limit is but my feeling is that actives and LFRs won't be good enough for me just yet. I think the same with Craig and others who are trained. Better, yes. Rivaling our sensory capabilities, no.

I think that limit is found in higher resolution in the Family of Curves. What that resolution is, I don't have enough theoretical grounding in psychoacoustics to know. Is it one degree, half a degree, a quarter? It likely depends on what your MLP is. The closer you are, the more you can resolve up to the limit of near-field effects.

Having high resolution curves is one thing and interpreting them to figure out what variations are low Q/high Q and how to best flatten them is another. Thankfully a DSP can do things that no analog filter, not even active analog filters, can do. Even an inexperienced signal analysis engineer has simulation tools available to, for all intents and purposes, design a perfect frequency domain filter. The real challenge is in noise rejection because that really blurs imaging when all other parameters have been optimized.

I wonder at what point perfection, which I define as the limits of human perception, will be reached and what will have to be done to get there.

Craig, are you using XLR or RCA connects between DSP and amp ?

Short RCA cables seem to be pretty common but short XLR's not so much...

Thanks... added to cart while I figure out what to use between DSPs and amps.

You really ought to use XLR if for nothing else but reducing the possibility of ground loop noise.

Something like this. Not sure of gender.

GLS Audio 2ft Patch Cable Cords - XLR Male to XLR Female Color Cables - 2' Balanced Snake Cord - 6 Pack https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000S91BI8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_fltFDbA5YTFFY

What the hell, John? I expected you to have constructed site-specific drawings detailing the installation of all components, cable part numbers and routing. And a final draft Site Acceptance Test document. Now I find out you're scrambling. Come on, man! LOL!

I second the vote for XLR mainly to make sure your noise floor can be as low as possible. The last thing you need is a loop with such a setup.

Yeah, guilty as charged. Work has been a lot more chaotic than I expected and I am scrambling on all fronts.

Added some XLR cables to the order... hopefully I got the genders right. Maybe I'll unbox the amps and DSPs just to be sure.

EDIT: Woof, ADA1500's are heavy. Looks like Axiom follows the "inputs are female, outputs are male" convention so a bunch of female-to-male cables should work. Ordered.

Thanks everyone !

You need female on one end male on the other for DSP to ADA. The DSP input needs a male.

Great, thanks. I think I'm still going to have to run RCA from pre-amp to DSPs unless/until I upgrade the pre-amp.

I'm running one of those TubeDAC combos at the moment... no XLR's.

I guess I'm going to end up with two stacks of electronics... probably DSP on the bottom (Ian says that should be OK), then ADA1500, then CD player on top of one ADA1500.

The TubeDAC doesn't have a phono input so I figure I'll move the turntable and HK receiver into the basement, hook up the MP5s there, and use that for ripping/playing LPs. At some point I guess I'm going to have to go look for a gadget that streams from the PC into the pre-amp.

I see why kids just play music on their phones

EDIT: OK, plan B. I ordered a basic Pro-Ject phono pre-amp, plus an acrylic platter so I can install the moving coil cartridge I bought about 10 years ago. Now I can have a turntable on top of the other DSP/ADA1500 stack.

Might end up wishing I had a subsonic filter somewhere in the path... we'll see.

John - We have Blue Jeans Cable's top RCA interconnects.

Here is a link to the Masters of Acoustic Guitar CD:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/masters-of-acoustic-guitar-mw0000596328

Thank you, Craig.

Craig, do you have access to Spotify on the active LFR system? Also looking forward to your feedback on the Airs.

Time for updates ...

1. Yes, we have access to Spotify Premium, and the account is set to "extreme high quality."

2. Last night was an evening with John Rankin Quartet - some fantastic jazz.

3. Tonight was Mozart.

The soundstage of these speakers, with eyes closed, is well outside the walls of the room. The depth is outstanding - on Mozart, you can see the violins well back and to the left.

Try this for imaging.

https://open.spotify.com/track/14TOo8SQP8YkAC4ExlvDaM?si=XvIud-cHSVSsl9ZQZ6OGsw

And this for giving the mid-woofers and their digital cross-overs a workout.

https://open.spotify.com/track/1hN3VqjowjWzyr3MSBNYtU?si=qdSeT1feSoawYA2SoWs9jQ

This for depth.

https://open.spotify.com/track/6GBH7ezU6hXHDDm2L58pWY?si=xsdPPGDoQzWgDQdu5JfFEg

This for width.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7a2Bn6l0huPgPxDAtm7iT1?si=m2VN9630RJ2WyZ_oEeo_Pg

Lol

Blair, we need some.

Guys - I meant to come back an edit my last post. Some biz stuff came up, and I had to step out. I forgot we only have a half hour to edit ... So here is the added info ...

The various horns were well placed a bit forward and to the right of the violins, with Cellos at the right of the stage.

For strict music listening, it takes a special speaker to keep my attention with classical music, and the Actives do it with ease.

And now Mojo wants an audition of the National Geographic Channel.

That Mojo sure is trouble!

Craig, where are the baffles of the speakers with respect to the front wall?

A pair of LFR1100 actives are in packaging and and a pair of ADA1500 5s are in quality control.

I'm getting pretty giddy. No idea how to set them up, but I figure the instructions should make it clear.

I will report back when I get them all set up.

Wonder how many actives were sold so far ... I count at least 4 on this board.

Who besides 2x6, Craig and Bridgman?

Whoa, Phil! I really like you too, dood! That was a very fast decision.

Me ... just can’t take delivery till my Room is ready.

I suspected you were one of the early adapters of active LFRs. Congrats!

2x6 - Congrats on the order! The worst part was stripping 40 wire ends. You also have to pay close attention to making sure you follow from DSP - Interconnect to amp - speaker wire to proper input. I did it one at a time all the way through - the last thing you need is to hook the woofer output to the tweeter on the speaker.

Mojo - the speakers are 31 inches from the back wall and 24 inches from the side walls. The rear baffle's angle is out.

"the last thing you need is to hook the woofer output to the tweeter on the speaker."

Craig, I don't understand this.

Is that 31 inches to the front baffle or the rear of the cabinet?

Like all you dudes too!

Stripping 40 wire ends?

Mojo ... by last thing you need to do, I mean DON'T DO IT!!

Another example ... "The last thing you need to do is ask your mother in law for her opinion."

It is the rear baffle that is 31 inches from the wall.

There are 10 speaker wires required. Each needs 4 ends stripped. Think positive and negative on each end.Thus, 40 in total.

LOL! Ok, I got it, Craig. BTW, do you know if the tweeters have a cap to protect them from possible DC levels?

Regarding the 31", it would be great if, at some point, you could experiment with putting them say 12" away and see how the image depth changes. Very few of us have the room or WAF to place them that far away. Andrew says the BGC switch on the DSP should really help with imaging in that kind of installation.

Phil, the other way to think about the wires is as follows: there are 5 cables going to each speaker: woofer array, front mid-woofer array, front tweeter array, rear mid-woofer array, rear tweeter array. Each of those cables has two ends - one for the amp and the other for the speaker. Each end has 2 wires - a positive and negative. So that's 5 cables * 2 wires/cable * 2 ends/wire = 20 ends. Since there are two speakers, that's 2 * 20 = 40 ends.

I'd help you wire, set these up and lock them into perfect "focus" if only I lived closer.

Thank you in advance Craig for keeping us all in the loop. You're a real credit to the hobby!

Phil, if you know your cable lengths, you could see if Axiom can provide you with all necessary cables including the ones between DSPs and amps.

Craig, is BGC set to zero?

BGC is set to off, and there will be a lot of different ideas tried, including close wall proximity.

We will also delve into 2.0 and 2.1 movie auditions, Audyssey tests with and without sub ... it's going to take months.

Yes, I know. I just want to make sure you don't miss anything in your test plan. :p

I sure wish you'd give up your day job for your hobby.

If the soundstage of perception were cleansed, every sound would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his passive, bipolar speakers.

Took an hour and fired up Steely Dan's "2 against nature" CD tonight. The Actives let the dynamics through in a way I haven't heard since we had the Klipschorns here. And the Actives do it with a sense of pure music that the Klipschorns cannot match.

They also give almost subwoofer depth in bass on the synthesized kick drum. These speakers are worth the effort to set up, for sure.

Is the 1500-4 and 1500-6 combo enough?

They are not even breaking a sweat.

I think they're designed to spray more mids and highs out the back rather than the front. Just sayin'...

Do you all realize what Axiom can do with this technology? And how quickly they can do it. This and the Air. I love it!

My cable parts arrived last night. Haven't been brave enough to open the box yet... that "40 wire ends" thing is a bit daunting. Probably need to dig around in the "tools I used 30 years ago" pile for some better wirestrippers.

Each wire will take you no more than one minute. It's actually rather therapeutic. Does that motivate you?

I use this for most of my wire striping ...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01018CX46/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Takes seconds per wire end good to 10AWG but I’ve only used it.to 12
It’s especially useful for stripping wire for small crimp connectors and other small electronic things where your repetitively trying to strip 1/8” or 1/4”. It can do casings if your careful.
And for you guys it’s great for speaker wire.

I just use one of these bad boys. I know John would appreciate it. For extra challenge, I close my eyes and do it behind my back. That one minute estimate I gave included terminating the end, a visual inspection followed by an electrical test. John, if you want an even bigger challenge, use the edge of the Cold Steel Spetznaz shovel.

Rich, are you procuring an active LFR centre and active surrounds too?

Yes but how many fingers do you have?

Have a VP180HP ... but if the LFR can image it out of existance I would not be unhappy ...

BTW
Can’t figure out the advantage to an LFR center unless maybe if your speakers are very far apart and you want to sit closer then the LFR sweet spot will allow.
And ... I’m not not positive the center to right / center to left sweet spots would work as I’m imagining.

Hey guys - after a couple of nights off for my parent's 65th wedding anniversary, it was time to rock out. Tonight was Bob Seager's "Live Bullet."

These speakers can kick some serious jams! Once again, the clarity is astonishing. You can not only hear the lyrics with ease, but you pick up Seager's breathing between words, subtle stage sounds - it gives a real feel for being at the concert, with one exception.

One can clearly tell they used one track of the 16 track recorder to record the audience from the stage, which makes them sound like they are "behind" the performers. Sometimes, accuracy makes for some odd listening experiences.

65th. Wow! Congrats to mamma and pappa Chase. Is that the original or re-mastered?

It was the first marriage for both.

Happy celebrations,

Time is so special in the long run.

Cool seems logical the background would be in the background. just more of a back up in such representation.

Oh yeah? That's great but I was asking about the album.

Background should be be to the sides and behind. Like Craig is sitting in a pool of people with Bob in front.

It's a probability that a unidirectional microphone was used on stage, facing the audience, to place the audience sounds into the soundtrack.

As Mojo suggested, the more accurate would be to have the audience surrounding the listening position, but this typically takes one omnidirectional microphone in the audience, which is a tough task, especially in a large venue.

Mojo - I will check the CD tomorrow to see if it was remastered, but that still would not have an effect on microphone placement.

I was thinking more of a guy mixing with either headphones or 2 monitors and trying to put the audience in the back ground.
Very dependant on method of recording/mics. used.

In that aspect I would expect most recordings of them becoming a backup singer. By default almost. Plus the recording artist probably never heard an Omnidirectional Active Loudspeaker, let alone even knowing it now exists.
The blueray concerts could be quite entertaining with the audience as more backup vocals

Brendo - As the concert was from the 70's, the speaker technology from then was quite different, especially in terms of a sound power experience ala Floyd E. Toole / Axiom (and a host of Harman International speakers - Toole's labs are there).

There were some bi-polar speakers and also other designs intended to create what is now showable in a family of curves. The Bose 901 is the most famous, and there were some other high end companies at the time doing it. There were no measurements behind the concept - merely drivers pointing in different directions.

What's remarkable is this: I have heard Live Bullet a bazillion times. I think we wore out 3 LPs my freshman year in college. The audience noises were always noticeable, but the Active 1100's make it clear how the audience was recorded.

Now I am looking forward to playing The Wall in its entirety - but this HAS to have an EP800 in the mix.

Hmmm...I've listened to the first track and plan to listen to more tracks. I can't say it's a great recording but perhaps better than a lot of other recordings of that genre. On that first track, the audience mostly collapses to the left and right M100s. A couple of times I heard the audience behind the M100s and to the inside. On the M5, the audience is behind the speakers and pushed "back". The M100s reveal more detail.

I'm really happy mith my setup. Might get some time tonight...

Yeah, I'm happy too. But we could be happier.

Well, I unpacked the 4 electronic devices, 2 amps and 2 dunno whats, I'm waiting for a friend to help repackage the LFR1100s and unpack the new LFR1100 actives. That's a lot of stuff.

The amps look very good. Pure design, quality look and feel, and HEAVY.

I have 12 XLR balanced interconnects and 2 RCA interconnects ready to connect. That exhausts my XLR cable supply.

Should be making some music by this evening. Will report.

Sounds like a fun day ahead
Congrats on the delivery.

Congrats, Phil. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Cool!!!

Is that 5 pairs of speaker binding posts per speaker?

I'm a bit jealous of you guys getting your deliveries ...
Although I'm also looking forward to hearing about everyone's impressions.
My expectations are high and every thing I hear keeps notching that up ...

December is so far way ...

Yep. 5 pairs.

Rich, Axiom's AI will take in feedback from users and improve the DSP. So yours will sound better.

2x6 - Congrats on the delivery. Set up will take some time, but it will be worth it.

After walking the golf course today in 88 degree temps, it was time for more listening. Today was Earth Wind and Fire's Greatest Hits. "Shining Star" was unlike anything I ever heard - the closing part Acapella was more of a "they are in the room" than anything I ever experienced. The whole disc was immersive in nostalgia along with dynamics and clarity that I have never heard.

Now I have "My Cousin Vinny" on, and the lack of center channel is not noticed, even when sitting outside either speaker. These speakers just let everything through - when the car expert takes off his glasses, you can hear the plastic clicking as he closes them. The realism is just too much fun.

2x6 - can't wait for you to get started!

I listened to many renditions of Shining Star on Spotify Premium. The only ones that feel like they're in the room are live in Tokyo and live in Baltimore. Maybe those live versions on your actives will make you feel like you're there!

post got away from me ... will repost

I was on the facebook axiom enthusiast page when my antenna went up.
There was this guy, Mr Stevens, who claimed to be a A-LFR purchaser. A fifth buyer I never heard of ... but wait … those speakers look suspiciously familiar … Mr. Chase you had me going there for a minute …

This got me thinking about who would be likely to be an early adopter in A-LFR market. Given the cost of the A-LFR (including 10 channels of amplification), one would need to trust that Axiom was not just spewing marketing hype. Right now the A-LFR market is us.

At least until some “in the know” reviewer comes out with the thumbs up to give others the warm and fuzzy to purchase.

Right. It all boils down to trust and money.

Here is a pair in High Gloss white with the two ADA1500-1 and four ADA1500-2. The comment I got back was:

"I've listened to a whole lot of speakers, but THESE!!!, they nail it"

Wow, someone tell me the use case where you need more than one 1500 per speaker in what looks to be a living room. One case I can think of is the saving of using a stack of 1500s and DSPs to hold up your gear instead of a cabinet.


P.S. Must have gotten too high ... think there is an ADA missing from that stack ...

Rich ... it was my profile picture that got you, right?

Guys ... let's talk the relative performance of the passive and active LFR-1100'S.

A pair of Passive LFR-1100's and an ADA 1500-4 retails at $8310.

The Active LFR-1100'S and a pair of ADA 1000-5's retail at $8760.

The active package, for about the same money, will outperform the passive package in every way.

Yes, going with a more powerful amp will get a little more headroom, but the Active pacacke for $8760 will have better dynamics with 5 amp channels per speaker and no loss from the crossover.

Now we are looking at a speaker / amp package of incredible value.

When one considers that one can later trade a 1000 for a 1500 relatively easy, I cannot see a reason to get the passive package over the active package.

Put in simple terms, no speaker system currently available can match the overall performance of the $8760 active LFR-1100 package.

Read the professional reviews of the passive 1100's ... the actives are superior.

I do think a mistake is made telling people they "need" $7000 to $22,000 in amplification to get great performance.

The next step up in performance would be in understanding the three 6.5 inch woofers need the most power.

For this ... take the Actives ... a 1500-2 and a 1000-8 for $10,410 retail. The relative in box efficiencies of the mid range and tweeters make this a solid package, and also an easy upgrade later.

Yeah. I will be buying them. I have the trust. Now I need to scrape together the money.

I think those belong to 2x6. Rich, that's one of his eight bathrooms. The other 7 already have 5.2.4.

Did you notice there are 7 ADAs? One is in warm stand-by.

Craig, you're not applying XT32 yet, correct?

The Marantz 7703 is being used as a 2 channel preamp with no processing of any kind, including Audyssey XT32.

Once nice feature of the Marantz is it allows Audyssey to be run, then turned off for the speakers ... basically, it now acts as a subwoofer eq.

There is a reason this will be a 6 month interview process. There is a lot to explore.

Marantz 7703...mmmmm...dreamy!

When I upgraded from v2 to v4, I founded I needed XT32 less. With v2, my system was unlistenable without XT32. I can't say that with v4. Without XT32, it is not offensive. Perhaps with actives, I won't need "room correction".

That's similar to what I ended up with based on Ian's guidance - a 1500-2 for the woofers (my existing 1500-4 with only 2 channels used) and a 1500-8 for everything else.

I haven't had to think about powering more than 1500W of amps before... guess the two 1500's should each have their own 15A circuit.

This is more like figuring out how to hook up a plasma cutter


OK, that answers my "I wonder if I could put the amps *and* DSPs into a single stack ?" question. I had discussed putting one amp on each DSP with Ian but didn't go further than that.

I think you'll be ok if you plug them all into one 20A outlet.

You can see how easy active upgrades will be when v5 drivers are out. You'll need a 1500 per side for the HP+ woofers.

DSPs will be relatively easy to upgrade as well when Hi-Rez FOC correction is available.

What Axiom is selling these active speakers for is an incredibly high value compared to other offerings. Show me another offering, at any price range, where the active listening window and sound power curves are one and the same. There are none. On top of that, you get low frequency response that extends down to 30Hz, peak SPL of 120dB+ at 12 feet away, vanishingly small THD+N (especially now that the passive filters are gone) and any finish you want.

You can also choose your own amplification. What little research I have done regarding amplification suggests the ADAs are also a high value product. If you want better, be prepared to pay five times more for reduced THD+N and a higher S/N. It's actually not clear in my mind if increased performance in these areas is merited. That's one area I need to understand more deeply.

Then you also have Axiom's generous trade-in program. As far as I am concerned, Axiom does not have any worthy competition.

Thanks for sharing Ian that stack is a sight to behold. And work towards.

Agree very much with you guys the value is incredible. When I purchased my 1250 most comparable powered Amps. were a fair bit more.

guess that you kind of like them then

what that’s not you?

That's a pretty safe statement. There is one caveat - these speakers are ACCURATE. There is no subtle bass boost nor added warmth. They really will put the performance from whatever media you are using with an extremely high level of accuracy.

They are, on the other hand, never harsh. For example, the Infinity IRS-Sigmas ($10,000 per pair 15 years ago and needing a MASSIVE amp) would get harsh at levels that the 1100 Actives think is an easy delivery in terms of SPL.

You are going to LOVE the dynamics from these guys. Music recordings of unamplified music will make you want to listen for hours.

think your a bit off here .. maybe forgot to add a 2nd amp?

Rich, he said 1000-5. You may be dreaming of 1500-5. LOL!

Mojo is right - I typed 1000-5. Another way of looking at it ... fully active, powered Active 1100's can start at:

$8760 for a pair with two ADA-1000-5's ... and go all the way to: $27,300 for a pair with 10 ADA-1500-1's (I think it's $27,300 - $5700 for the speakers and $21,600 for the amps)

Craig, can you give us any idea of where your Marantz's gain is set to and what peak SPL is being achieved?

yes I missed that

Mojo - I am not taking any measurements at this time. If you read most in depth reviews, measurements are done at the completion of the review. My basic plan is to play with the speakers until mid November, then do some serious listening for a couple of months. By early February, a full review will be posted. I have the same measurement system that Kal Rubinson uses at Stereophile, so look for a REAL batter of measurements at that time.

I really don't understand the power requirements or capabilities of the active LFR1100. The 1500-1, used for the woofer array, is capable of 4500 dynamic Watts. Presumably the woofer array handles this peak power without compression. If so, the musical power tweeters would see is no more than 10% of that peak or 450W and the mid-woofers 30% or 1350W. The 1000-1 is capable of 3000W. What then is the purpose of the 1500-1 for the mids and highs? The only advantage I can see is improved S/N.

In reviewing Ian's post again, I see it's the 1500-2 being used for mids and highs. The 1500-2 allows for 2250 dynamic Watts for each mid-woofer and tweeter array. I can't see why so much power is required given the 450W and 1350W figures from my previous post. This is particularly confusing given the active LFR1100 is specified for 4400 peak Watts.

Mojo ... the tweeters don't need the power, but as it's currently not possible to get an amp with a 1500 for the woofers and a 1000 for everything else, we match amps.

I did mention to Ian that a tailor made amp with a single 1500, two 1250 and two 1000 channels in a single box, with two boxes required for a speaker pair, would make a great solution.

I think that would require different voltages on the rails for each amp's finial stage ... maybe you might be able to share one mother of a transformer but think little else. Plus the fact that you're limited to what a single outlet can provide.

Instead if you actually thought you needed more than 1 1500 per A-LFR speaker then I'd suspect the best bang for the buck would be something like, and I say this from intuition and without real knowlege of what each of the 5 sections draws under real music conditions, 3 ADA 1500 or 2 ADA 1500 + a 1250 ... a dedicated 1500-1 for each speaker's woofer and 1 ADA-8 for everything else ... I'm sure Ian or Andrew can tell me why the mids and tweet need more to balance out the dedicated 1500-1 ... I mean someone at Axiom (Ian seems likely) felt that insane power of all those amps could at times be needed (at the same time).

Rethinking the balance maybe a dedicated 1500-2 for the woofers and front mids per speaker and a 1250-6 for everything else.

The one box concept would not necessarily mean one electric cord. Earthquake has done dual cords for years.

The guys are toying with some ideas. There are so many options now. Your idea of 1500's and 1250's is also solid, with the possible change to a 1500-2 for the woofers and a 1250-8 for the mids and tweeters.

The whole idea is it doesn't cost a fortune to get active sound.

I am glad to hear Axiom is thinking about it; there's a lot to think about.

I hope so. Looks like I have 1 20A circuit for the living room and 3 20A circuits for the vault / gun room.

That is not how I would have allocated the circuits... total power to the gun room is maybe 30W for lighting and 40W for dehumidifier.

On the other hand Ian's amplifier stack probably needs its own transformer out by the street.

3x20A circuits in the gun room is barely enough for your plasma rifle.

Craig, is this your last speaker purchase?

I thought I was ahead of the curve by putting a dedicated 20A circuit in the theater in addition to the shared 15A. Should have added another...

So Steve...it sounds like you will be upgrading your M100s?

Oh no! I'm happy with what I have! I don't have that kind of budget now and my room is really not ideal for omnidirectional speakers. With 11 speakers in a 16x18 ft room, I can get nice surround by putting the system in... surround.

But I will say that with the new M100s for the little I got to play them, the wife and I both enjoy listening to music in pure stereo now. More playing this weekend when I get home.

BTW, I did set them up further away from the front wall by about another 6". They sound great!

I think I went a bit over the top ... put a sub panel in the media room and race ways in the floor to get it where it’s needed. Wanted the option to change stuff.

Looks great Great job on your room .Im just about to pull the trigger on another EP500 and a pair of QS10s .
Then cool off period before the my wife send me to Audio anonymous. The need for more never stops.

That's a really nice room, Steve. I agree surround is nice but I expect active LFRs to be a completely different experience.

Rich, 100A sub-panel?

actually I’m not sure. We talked about having 6 to 8 circuit so it probably is. If I remember I’ll look at the main breaker panel

THAT's one great looking room!

That's like asking Sam Malone if he's done dating.

At the moment I have a generator sub-panel (not connected to anything except city power; need to get off my butt and get that hooked up to a generator input) that drives boring stuff like furnace, water pump, fridge and freezer.

If I remember correctly, however, there is a second "great room" circuit on the generator panel.

"It was really wierd driving by Bridgman's house... there weren't any lights on but something had shaken all the snow off the roof".

Thanks all! Can't wait for the VP180HP. It's in QC now.

Steve, according to Craig, we won't need centers when we all upgrade to active LFRs. Just sayin'...

Understood, Craig. Thanks.

They will be my last. I expect them to be less of a speaker and more of an audio platform. I look forward to driver upgrades, amp upgrades and DSP upgrades.

Hi Rich,

The insane amp stack (2 x ADA1500-1 and 4 x ADA1500-2) is really for one application, the dance party. There just seems to be no end to everyone wanting to progressively keep turning the system up in direct relationship to the bar getting drained. But this application aside, something like a combination of an ADA1500-2 for the LF sections and an ADA1250-8 for the rest sounds like a smart combination. It saves money compared to two ADA1500-5s and you can still run balanced everywhere if you want. As to how much power is needed for the mids and tweeters compared to the bass it is tough to nail down an exact number as the content plays a big role. But we do know that you want to avoid any clipping at all cost as just a minor amount taints the performance.

Ian,
I think it might be easier to consider what max voltage is needed at each speaker section rather than power..

There are two parts to consider: the driver section needs (voltage/SPL/freq) and the max content peak voltage over frequency relative to a reference (say 1kHz). The driver part you have and I’ll bet that the content part has to be known if you don’t know it already ... ( if not, it would not be a hard reasearch project given all the online content. Know of any a grad students who might need a topic?)

Armed with this info we can talk about relative amp clipping and power.

It's pretty simple in my mind. We already know the woofer array can take in excess of 4500 peak Watts. We know this because Axiom is selling systems with a 1500-1 for each woofer array. So if the woofer array is sized for 4500W, what should the mid and tweeter arrays be sized for? Well, if we make the reasonable assumption that 60% of the musical power is bass (that's 4500W), 34% is mids and 6% is highs, that brings us to 0.36*4500=1530W peak required for mids and 0.06*4500=270W peak required for highs. So as a maximum system size, you'd need:

- 4500W peak for bass
- 1530W peak for front mids
- 1530W peak for rear mids
- 270W peak for front highs
- 270W for rear highs

I've made the assumption that front and back are fed the same amount of power. This may or may not be the case depending on the design of the filters and how the BGC switch is set.

If we go with what I have above, then each active LFR needs:

- ADA 1500-1 for bass array
- ADA 1000-2 (one for the front mids and one for the back)
- ADA 1000-2 (one for the front highs and one for the back)

But how do you optimize the power delivery for a system of two? You'd do the following:

- Two 1500-1 for the woofer array per LFR
- Two 1000-3 for the front mid and the two tweeter arrays per LFR
- One 1000-2 for the rear mids per LFR.

One last thought. The above is maximum system sizing for absolute max SPL that these things can deliver. Keep in mind that I can blow my brains out with an ADA-1000-2 and M100v4 in my 4,200 cu. ft. room sitting 12 feet away.

I'm starting off with a 1500-3 and a 1000-8. All Watts in the following discussion are peak Watts.

The 1500-3 will give me 4500W to share between the LFR and 160v2. The 1000-8 will give me 3000W to share with the remaining LFR channels. I also plan to test a 1000-3 in place of the 1500-3.

I think all this will be over-kill; even with the 1000 in place of the 1500. Here's why:

- 0 dB on my Onk is really LOUD in my room through my M100v4 and (any) ADA.
- if I play a 60Hz tone, 0dB on my Onk is 441W across the woofer array. I know this because that triple woofer array is 4 Ohms and 0dB on my Onk is 42V out of an ADA. 42 squared divided by 4 is 441W.
- let's assume the bass signal in my music is really 441W. That makes the mid 36% of that or 159W and the highs 6% of the lows or about 26W.
- for stereo listening, with the 1500 for the lows, I have over 2000W of head-room per channel. Even with an ADA-1000-2, I'd have over 1000W of headroom per channel.
- with the 1000-8, I have over 150W of headroom per channel for mids and 350W per channel for highs...LOL!

So I think for those who are just sitting on the sidelines and aren't sure about what to get for amplification, go with a 1000-2 for the lows and a 1000-8 for everything else.

Keep in mind you'll likely be running an active LFR system with a sub. So that's load that's lifted from the amps.

I still like how clean 2.0 sounds.

I'll try it for sure.

I just want to add another thing about the amps with active LFRs. I really like the clipping protection circuit in the ADAs. Without being overly-offensive, the channel shuts down. I like this much better than a compression circuit because it lets me know if I need more amp power.

So far, I've never had a need for more than a 1500 for any of the Axioms. The only time I've been able to activate the 1500 clipping circuit is when I had two stacked M5s (a 2.5 Ohm load) and also an M5 stacked on the M100 (again a heavy load). I was still able to pull 112 dBC peaks on the stacked M5 and 109dBC peaks on the stacked M5/M100 at 12 feet away before shut-down.

But I’m trying to size it with the max voltage needed to play musical content in mind. This thought was moot in a passive x-over but in an active one it might be relevant to sizing the amps.

Agreed that it would be so awesome if Axiom released specs for all the driver arrays. Until then, I guess we have to experiment and maybe blow shit up!

Now here's something interesting about the active LFR power I posted above. If your LFRs are far away from the front wall, you may have to boost the gain of the rear drivers by either 1.5dB or 3dB. If you are close to the wall, you may have to cut the gain by the same amounts. This is done via the BGC switch on the DSP box. You can do this on a per-LFR basis. So my numbers above would have to be adjusted accordingly.

In my case, one of the LFR rears will be firing into a curtain. I may need a 20dB boost. Lol!

I sure hope these are the wet dream Craig is talking about because it's a lot of money and time spent.

Mojo - you will be wanting a better pre-amp. The wet dreams are up to you.

What would you recommend? The pre-amp I mean.

Why aren't my Onk pre-outs good enough?

Will this be audio only? Or also for movies?

It's for both. It's my main system in the man-cave.

For both, the Onk is fine. I just like messing with you. A sales rep for my company was a BIG fan of strip clubs. He thought all the girls loved him. His enthusiasm for strippers was about the same as yours is for speakers. Since he is no longer in my employ, I need someone else to tease about his obsession.

Craig, tease away man if it makes you feel good. All the women thought I loved them too when I stripped. And I did.

Now that I'm looking at the various wood finishes, I love speakers even more!

Regarding the Onk, I've been wanting to better understand the pre-amp quality. I should really stop buying speakers and get some test equipment.

BTW, any advantage to using the sub outs on the DSPs for the fronts vs. my Onk?

I'm just gonna say this about the Axioms before I make swine, eggs and cappuccino for breaky. Now that I've had a chance to listen to most of the Axiom line-up, I can finally understand what Ian has done for us all. He's left no one behind. Regardless of budget, room, style or taste, he has something for everyone. And it all sounds very good. That's truly something to be very proud about.

I'm gonna get some rosewood to be like TAM.

Craig, one of the things I really like about my 160v4 right now is that it sounds like it's coming from my TV. The 160 is sitting right below the TV; the top of it is almost touching the bottom of the TV. I'd be curious to know if you get that "coming from the TV" effect with the active LFR.

Mojo - Vocals are nicely engaged from the TV with "just" the Active 1100's. And beyond that, it's a seamless soundstage for both depth and width.

Even watching football is fun - you get a real feel for being there. An example is when the team bands start playing - it's palpable.

Thanks, Craig. That's actually quite impressive given the fact your TV is set back from the driver plane of the LFRs by about 3 feet.

Craig, did you vaporize yourself with the active LFRs?

It has been a busy couple of days - month end at the dealership and some other business issues.

BUT ... my music education son, the guitar instructor, was over tonight. He was astonished at how well the Actives reproduce acoustic guitar and drums.

As an aside - last spring, I did a review of a pair of American made "Human speakers" from the company that took over when Genesis Physics closed in the 80's.

They are a fantastic speaker - 8 inch woofer, hand built 1 inch dome tweeter - think EPI from the late 70's (Genesis Physics was formed by 2 EPI engineers).

My son has those in his dorm room, and loves them. His ear for music is tremendous, and he thinks the Actives are unlike anything he ever heard.

He is also the next gen audiophile. Dad got him a turntable for Christmas, and he loves the hobby.

Wait till your son hears Ian's new ribbon design that will have quad opposed 10 inch subs (2 per side), a 1600 watt subwoofer amp ... Quad 6.5 inch woofers - Triple 5.25 inch mids front and back and a new, Colquhoun Labs Ribbon Tweeter array front and back.

He's not that ambitious. He will "settle" for the Actives 1100's.

When you upgrade in a year, he can have them. My son knows he can talk with Uncle Ian when he's ready to get serious.

Mojo - On a serious note - the post about the $28,000 speaker was satire.

When I did a blind comparison between the M100's and Legacy Signature SE's 4 years ago, the M100's came across as the more musical speaker. Legacy made one of my all time favorite speakers - bought a pair of their Model 1's in 1988.

People were astonished when I preferred the Axioms with the dome tweeters over the 2015 Legacies with a ribbon. This got me thinking about some truly great speakers - like Harbeth -that use domes.

The whole point is that if one takes the Active/Passive 1100's or M100's ... the drivers used can match the drivers from some $15,000 to $100,000 speakers.

And instead of a speaker with built in subs (more satire) - the true superspeaker would be a pair of Active 1100's with a pair of EP800's - similar in form/factor to the Infinity IRS systems of 25 years ago - but much more affordable.

A pair of LFR-1100's, a pair of ADA-1500-5 and a pair of EP800 subs is under $17,000 in the "I can wait 21 days" option.

This is amplification, signal processing, a sound power window that Wilson Audio can't touch for $200,000 and 10 Hz bass with musicality to match anything JL Audio can muster in terms of subwoofer.

This system is so good it is limited primarily by the software - in other words - how well is the music recorded. I can easily hear the difference between the best Spotify and my CD player. The CD player is much better.

For some humor ... "ribbons? we don't need no stinking ribbons!"

Yeah dude. I know. I'm insane; not stoopid.



Craig, I've read everything you've ever written on-line. I am your number 1 fan!

The M100v4 is the highest fidelity and most dynamic speaker I've ever heard.

BTW, when you bought your Legacies, I thought Realistic was hi-fi.



Damn it! I will only have two 500v4 up front and an 800v4 in back. I better upgrade to twin 800v4 up front.

Four EP600s is another good subwoofer match for the LFR1100 Actives. It gives you 2,400 watts of continuous subwoofer power and will smooth out the bass response in your room.

Craig, Ian is giving you advice.

Craig, did you toe them in as Andrew suggested in his blockbuster youtube vid?

The basic layout of our room .... 44 x 14.5 feet with 7.5 foot ceilings. Concrete walls and floor with 2x4 under drywall, fully insulated.

Thick carpet pad with a very high quality carpet. At 2/3rd from front to back, a stairway with same carpet that does a great job eliminating any echoes.

Dual subs work the best, as the rear of the room is quite dead, and also 25 feet from the listening position. EP800's are flat to 11 Hz in room at 4 listening positions.

Tried a bit of toe in, but straight on works better in our room. It is a live front and very dead back room.

OK. Do they come in an inflatable version? I ripped my shoulder bone off my body bone while spear throwing.

Craig, where do you plan to set up your subs relative to the actives?

Mojo - I am not sure. For a cool look, next to the speakers might work - but for best sonics, I may cross them at 40 Hz and place them behind the listening position.

My 800 is behind and fires across the room diagonal.

A 40 Hz sine wave is about 28 feet long - 20 Hz is 56 feet and 80 Hz is 14 feet. This is why bass is considered to be "non directional."

It's fun to have people listen to one's system, then show a subwoofer behind the listening position. It sounds like the bass is coming from the man speakers.

At my place, on many songs, bass is very localized behind the speakers. It's a very eerie effect. This is both in my mancave and living room.

There are many examples. Here are two. I can "see" all instruments, including the drums, being projected in the volume of space between the back of my speakers and the front wall.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2AHaMdixIVlMfcme6Ww4Yt?si=JdkyKszDScS5SLSXQwzTjg

https://open.spotify.com/track/6GBH7ezU6hXHDDm2L58pWY?si=PCxthDm4Q42ReGVylXEnJw

Craig, here's a treat for your actives.

https://open.spotify.com/track/0FwjfnVDTXDaf5cMMbIKef?si=ZDnon-yGRfqRkhOqrmiJlA

Mojo - Thanks for the link. Spotify has been downloaded to my laptop. I also ordered a Yamaha CDS-2100 CD/SACD player. The measurements at Australia's top stereo review site are off the chart good for both CD and SACD.

It's a $3500 unit that compares favorably to gear from Luxman and Esoteric, which are all over $10,000.

Included is a USB input to access the DAC from one's Laptop. Spotify will now be as good as any CD production.

My daughter is getting married on the 20th - after that, things will start getting serious. Looking forward to you getting yours as well.

Congrats on your daughter, Craig. I'm kind of worried now. I think you're telling us that sources become the ultimate limitation with the actives. We may need direct digital into the DSPs.

Those Esoteric units are beautiful. Another really beautiful rig set THE GRYPHON but stupid expensive as well.
They're so sleek while still massive and bold at the same time.

Think we are getting into the pride of ownership territory here ...
I doubt big heavy, beautifully built, optical media transports add much over cheaper versions ...

As the timing and accuracy are all in the electronics

Mojo is right ... the farther down the audio chain it stays digital the better off you are ...
at least in theory .. digital audio can be screwed up by bad digital processing and the final d/a convertion ... so the first component might be the best place to go analog ...

Even if the DSP had a digital port, what format would it support and how would that connection be made via a receiver?

Axiom could support direct digital with the Air platform but use cases would be limited.

On a different topic, Craig how many vortex ports are on the back of the actives? The passives have two.

Rich, jitter in optical discs is real and affects sonic quality. The jitter is found in playback equipment and also the production process. You can have a player with very low jitter due to stability of the servo and transport, but if the disc was produced with poor jitter, sound quality will be affected. And vice versa. The laser generator and optical pickup are also prone to various effects.

Mojo ... I maybe wrong but I believe a CD stores it’s audio as 16 bit samples. There are a bit more than 44K of these numbers a second. I assume that these numbers come off the CD and are stored in a buffer to be reclocked to the D/A.

I imagine that today one would buffer many seconds of audio at a time and go back for more when needed making the transport just a skip free storage device.

Ok, on to jitter ...I doubt jitter on the D/A side of things would really matter that much given a reasonable clock and output filtering. That said, I’m sure you will educate me. Now when one is going the other way, the A/D side of things, jitter will raise your noise floor.

I'm not an expert so don't quote me on any of this. There are over 4 Mbits/sec retrieved from a CD. I think about 1.5 million of that is audio data and the rest is used for ensuring integrity in the modulation scheme.

You know those pits on the CD? It's the transition between the pits and the land that is read as ones and zeros - these are the zero crossings of the modulated analog signal. If the production process is bad and the transition between the pits and land isn't sharp, there's phase shift in the modulated signal and the zero crossings aren't where they should be. This is really bad for highs and those highs are responsible for soundstage width at least.

On jitter, I am an expert but not on audio. Rather, on sampling power system harmonics which are all in the audible frequency spectrum. So it's sort of the same thing as audio. Jitter affects D/A converter synchronization. I remember we had 100 picoseconds of jitter and it affected performance out to the 30th harmonic. I'm extrapolating here from my experience but I surmise low amplitude, high(er) frequency audio is affected. That screws with depth cues.

Craig how many vortex ports are on the back of the actives? The passives have two. The M100s have 5.

I will look tonight.

Thank you.

Note in the measurements below on Craig's new CD player, the jitter is five times less than the ITU-T standard for 20Hz to 100KHz. I am sure Craig factored this into his purchase decision.

We peasants will have to listen to our active LFRs via Spotify, PS3 and other jittery mechanisms.

http://i.nextmedia.com.au/Assets/yamaha_cd-s2100_cd_player_review_test.pdf

LFR1100s, 3 rear ports

Mojo, I think the discussion was about high end transports vs typical mid end.
A badly made disk is what it is ...

I think pcm encoding is an option but I’m not sure it’s used or used as you describe ... if it is then a d/a would not be needed ... and I’m not sure how the error correction would work then ...

Thank you.

You are welcome Mr. Mojo!
LFR1100 Actives. 3 ports

The Actives here have 3 ports, too. Seems to be pretty common.

LOL!

Three here as well

3 ports which look like dilated gorilla rectums.

Don't ask.

SOMEONE's been watching too much National Geographic.

OR ... possibly been watching MOJO's neighbors too closely.

Haley Joel Osment saw dead people. We all see vagarious vortex vacua.

I have asked guests to feel them and they would not. Ahahahaha!

I really like them. I hear Ian is working on active sphincters.

hmmm ... the humor is regressing ... think that 18 year old in the 60 year old body just turned 12 ... but then again ... who wants to walk around acting like you're 60 ... 12 is good.

With active sphincters, Mojo could give his neighbors a floorshow.

If you can believe it, the lady across the street wanted me to take down my giant spruce because she didn't have a clear view of my living room. I took it down and now she can watch me strut my stuff every morning.

Your willingness to entertain an elderly lady is touching. Pun intended.

She's younger than me but you are correct in that I am very thoughtful, giving and humble.

She can be younger than you and still qualify as elderly.

You kinda walked right into that one.

I set that up for you.

Ha,
Thanks guys needed a good laugh.

Spent the morning at a memorial was kind of sad but a good family reunion the last time we were all together was another memorial. 7 years ago man time flies!!!

Brendo - those days are tough. Kudos to Mojo for being a good sport!

Sorry to hear that, Brendo.

Thanks

My wife was looking at me funny as I was laughing at your conversation. lightened the evening.

Now back to plugging Active Gorilla sphincters in front of poor ladies whom weren't aware of such pass times.

Let us not forget whether Jitter will add or detract from her experience.

Or Wow and Flutter. Although every time I jitter mine, she wows and flutters.

NOW we know why Ian doesn't let us post pics in the forum.

The wedding is over - the house is emptying out. This weekend, some serious listening sessions will begin using the new Yamaha CD-2100 CD/SACD player.

That was the longest wedding ever. Thank goodness it's over and you can get back to the important stuff.

Craig, what is the angle of the rear baffles on the LFR? An Axiom blog post said 3.2 degrees but I find that difficult to believe.

Craig, it's the weekend.

It is the weekend, and the Yamaha CD-2100 is up and running. Tonight's listening session was disc 3 of the Grateful Dead's Fillmore West CD.

What a fantastic listening experience! You have to hear "Drums" on this system. The dynamics and "you are there" is as much fun as I have had in listening to music in YEARS! This performance is 50 years old, and while having eyes closed, I was thinking about moon landings, summer days and a much more innocent time.

On "Jam" - think Jerry and the boys just jamming for 24 minutes - the vocals were spooky clear, and the grunge of the tube amps for the rhythm guitar was palpable.

These speakers really are something special!

I'm actually getting real worried, Craig.

As you may remember, I have 2 set-ups. One is 2-channel in the living room and the other is 5.1 in the basement. The future LFRs are for the basement. But the stairs to the basement are adjacent to the living room. So, I was planning to listen to the LFRs, the two 500s and 7500W of peak ADA amplification in the living room first before moving them downstairs.

Now what happens if in my living room I end up having a rapture as I'm listening to them? I may not be able to live without them upstairs. But I also need them downstairs. What then, huh?

Take out a second mortgage, sell a kidney, hit up the octogenarian who had you remove the tree ... desperate times, Mojo.

I guess I might just have to make more money dancing behind my bow window.

I'm listening to "drums" on the M5s in my living room. The imaging across the soundstage is pretty spectacular. I'll have to listen to this on my main system.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5gFH7SPM6G4b3r0pyqJRQ6?si=3ITDyTKJQnSnLo3OhwruYQ

Mojo - pretty remarkable for a 50 year old recording, eh?

Indeed, I listen to recordings from the 50s and 60s that put most modern recordings to shame.

I'll tell ya. I just played it on my main system. I had the Onk cranked to +14.5dB and was hitting peaks of 109.5dBC through the ADA-1500/M100/800 and right into my ribs 12 feet away! Clean, clean, clean! It sounded absolutely HUGE compared to the M5s. Those sounds were coming from well behind the M100s which is an effect I really dig.

Craig, I just cannot imagine what you're hearing through your actives.

Good one, Craig.

One thing is very interesting. On this album, my M100s acoustically disappear. Maybe I just broke them in.

Mojo , Did you order the N2?

Hi RJ. I have not yet. Not until Ian puts an 800 and LFRs in it.

Lots of great songs on that album. My favorite has to be Death don't have no mercy.

Craig, do I need to buy a CD player like yours to experience rapture? If so, that will never happen and I may as well end it all now.

before you end it ... can you send me your audio stuff?

Hey .. I'm a local ... does that mean I have to start working on my Canadian accent?

If I end it today, my audio stuff will be obsolete before it gets to your place. I think it may already be obsolete given the active LFRs.

Which Canadian accent? There's a plethora of them, y'all.

Mojo - what is your source set up - do you do most everything from Spotify? Do you have a DAC?

Thanks for asking, Craig and hopefully providing some advice.

In my main room, my sources are a PS3, Amazon Firestick, a Google Chrome and a Yammie cassette deck. All that connects through my Onk which supports 192KHz/24-bit formats. The majority of my listening is via Spotify Premium via the Firestick. The Onk has Spotify Connect but I've never been able to make it work. BTW, I notice Spotify via the Firestick is better sounding than via Chrome and PS3.

I don't have an external DAC. I've never used one and frankly don't know what I don't know. Total noob.

You might want to check out some of the Streamer/DAC units on the market. You would use the CD input on the Onk, and basically, have CD quality.

Here is a good place to start -

https://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=414

Thank you, Craig. I will educate myself on them.

How are they different than a Firestick 4K? BTW, I just discovered the Firestick 4K goes up to 96KHz which really is 48KHz better than it needs to be anyway.

A dedicated audio streamer with DAC is going to have a much lower noise floor and a much more robust power supply. You will get better bass and more detail. Your fire stick is still great for movies, but if you want all that music can deliver, feed your system the best.

The Firestick 4K does not publish a noise spec. Now a good question is, what should the maximum noise spec of a source be to minimize the noise of my entire system? For example, there's no point in a -120 dB S/N figure for a source if the figures for the Onk and ADA are lower.

I really need to understand all this better. Thanks for raising awareness.

""For example, there's no point in a 120 dB THD+N figure for a source if the figures for the Onk and ADA are lower.""

Actually, you want a lower noise floor than the Onk or ADA, if you can do it.

Looking at the Cambridge Audio AXC35 CD player, it is spec'ed to -93 dB S/N.

The Yamaha CD-2100 has a spec of -116 dB.

It is not a subtle difference between the 2, and it is doubtful the Amazon unit can match the Cambridge.

There's a lot to look into.

The Firestick 4K hasn't been independently tested but the Chromecast Audio was and it was extremely respectable. I remember paying $35 Canadian for it. The Firestick sounds better.

I have an option in the Audio settings of my Onk called Music Optimizer. With Spotify via PS3 or Chromecast Audio or Chromecast Video, I have the option to turn that on. It sounds much better on than off. With the Firestick 4K, I cannot access it - it's grayed out as if to say you can't get any better.

Craig ... how about something like the AV8805 preprocessor ... 24bit/192kHz decode ... (guess this is the best they send ... since the DACs are all 32bit)

Do we really need a dedicated Streamer??

BTW it's less then some of the streamers on that page ... and comes with a few extra functions

I have the exact same question as Rich. How much better is a DAC/Streamer than a receiver or pre/pro? How do we know?

The Marantz 8805 - which can be found for a LOT less than the $4500 USD retail price - will do everything one needs. No additional streamer needed.

I am trying to decide whether to get one of those or a higher end pre-amp from Rogue, Prima Luna or maybe even Black Ice.

Mojo - you answered your own question: "The Fire Stick sounds better." I would talk to some of the guys at a place like Audio Advisor about streamers. They are totally honest and have years of experience. You will find the lower noise units with robust power supplies sound better.

Rogue, Prima Luna or maybe even Black Ice ...

Why tube?

I have a Marantz 7703 for home theater, and a PS Audio Stellar Gain preamp/DAC now. The tube preamp is just for the fun of it. Probably something in January when cabin fever starts to set in.

Craig, the Firestick sounds better than the Chromecast Audio and Chromecast Video and the PS3. I wish I could get Spotify going natively on the Onk to compare with the Firestick. The Onk can do 192KHz/24-bit whereas the Firestick can only do 96KHz/24-bit. While 96KHz/24-bit is more than anyone really needs, the higher spec of the Onk tells me it may have been designed to perform better.

The Onk is rated at a S/N of 110dBA IHF-A. I really don't know what that means but that number sounds impressive.

S/N is probably measured under the best conditions along the quietest path ... in other word don’t expect that in real use ...

Just to close off my Onkyo Spotify complaint, I have an 8 year-old Onk that has a native Spotify app. This is not the same as Spotify Connect that is found on the Air and more modern gear. Spotify made changes to their software and Onkyo, unlike Denon and others, did not update their native app. Hence why mine does not work.

Another thought of the streaming topic is a lot of reviewers recommend using something like J river/Audervana/Roon and so on to bypass Our P.C.s or App. processing.

With a quality D.A.C. and decent connection wouldn't it make such programs irrelevant? Regardless of such claims that, "Widows/Mac processing are set to make everything sound good"

I've been using Tidal through HDMI/Play fi for a couple years. To an Anthem MRX720. Aside from minor WIFI drops, it's been great. Would one of these programs really take it to the next level?

Craig, how are those LRSs against the actives? <he asks as he chuckles>

You fried your RLSs didn't you, Craig? You turned them into little ribbons, huh? You connected the 1500, cranked it and turned them into large, toasty waffles before they ignited, correct?

The little Maggies are doing just fine. No problems at all. In the right setting, they make great music. They are not a speaker that multiple people can get a concert experience through, but they definitely are a fun listen.

I didn't hear anything from you about them so I thought maybe they sucked or you let the smoke out of them.

What Axioms sound better than the LRS?

Mojo - that's a tough question. Let's revisit this sometime in the near future.

I've heard many speakers mostly around the same price range as M80s and below. The majority of my listening was in other people's homes. The vast majority of those were set up real bad in the room. I can say many sounded better at "normal" listening levels than my old Axiom set-up. Many sounded worse than my old set-up at louder levels either because of the receiver or amp or speakers - couldn't tell which. All the ones that were set up well in the room soundstaged/imaged better than my old setup. This is where I got the idea I could do better.

Well since I got my v4 it's been an absolute revelation. All the speakers I heard can't touch any of the v4. Of course I have them set up real good at my place. The fidelity, soundstage /imaging are outstanding. Of course now with the actives coming, I'm hoping it's a whole different ball game.

Fair enough, Craig.

Craig, what cut do dealers get at audio shops? I've been told typical mark-up is two times their cost.

BTW, I've heard Martin Logans and didn't like them. I hope Maggies don't sound like that.

Mojo - Take a pair of speakers that retails for $1000. Typically, the dealer cost is $500-$600.

With Maggies - it's more like $700. With "X" brands, it could be $200.

Thanks. Do you think it's about the same for electronics?

Honestly I have no idea how an Onk or a Denon sells for as little as it does. I suppose it's all about volume.

Craig, for your actives. Patricia Barber, Black Magic Woman. A dynamic range masterpiece!

https://open.spotify.com/track/55T8Z5p3dTMPNLUhBlT4Na?si=41u2UpluQAeZwkKPnBwWyQ

Mojo - Thanks for the link. Things have been insane at the dealership lately, and I have a business conference to attend this weekend, plus planning for a factory sponsored Black Friday 10 day sale starting the 15th.

I am HOPING things settle down soon - my schedule has been pretty much wake, work, go to gym, watch a movie (on the M!00's and VP180 HP) and go to bed.

Craig, according to the passive LFR manual, given the distance of your LFRs from the front wall, the BGC switch should be in position "far 2". Of course this is very room-dependant.

Tonight, we finished a 9 day sale at the dealership. We sold 43 vehicles in 9 days. It was tiring, but awesome!

So ....... after a well earned nap, we watched "Hunter Killer" starring Gerard Butler. It has some AMAZING bass! The entire house was shaking. The best part was when my son asked how a subwoofer could make the room shake like that.

The subwoofer isn't in in the mix. These actives are something special.

I suppose 43 vehicles in 9 days is a lot? I don't know...just asking.

That was a great show. What other speakers were in play? Could you do without a centre? Did you miss the 800?

We usually average 70 vehicles per month - so yes, 43 is good for us in 9 days.

There is no center channel, nor any subwoofer. We are missing that pulsing one feels in the chest with the EP800's, but the bass of the actives is remarkable - MUCH more palpable than the M100's or LFR-1100 actives.

Movies are great in the 2 channel set up. I am actively looking into some high end, 2 channel preamps to put in the system. Bryston, Black Ice and Audio by Van Alstine are in the mix.

You mean LFR-1100 passives.

Wow. Some may not need subs or surrounds for movies.

Everything is remarkable but of course the bass is very evident. As I've said, the twin 500s are useless for 2-channel music in my living room.

Mojo - Yes, I meant LFR-1100 Passives. My mind is pretty mushy today. On top of all the stuff at the store, I have been involved in another project that is quite large. Since before October 20, when my daughter got married until now, my average week has been about 90 hours with this other project.

I am WAY too old for this.

I am watching Gladiator now in two channel on the actives. The depth of the sound effects is amazing. Maximus is addressing his troops in the prison right before the coup, and one got the echo effect of the stone walls as one would hear live.

Quality drivers, no crossover and plenty of power.

Craig, I haven't slept or eaten since I got the actives. I've just been listening. Thank goodness my buddy came over and fed me pizza.

Today is a much appreciated day of relaxing. One of the aspects of the LFR-1100 actives is how versatile they are.

Earlier today, I fired up the SACD of Roger Water's "In The Flesh." The stage was immense, the bass deep, the performers well placed and detail incredible. For example, the grunge sound on the rhythm guitar is so well contrasted against the soaring vocals of the female vocalist that one can almost smell the cannabis in the building.

Then I was switching through movies on Spectrum Cable, and XXX Two: The Return of Xander Cage was on. Ok - it's a guilty pleasure nonsense movie, but that also means all sorts of audio treats.

And the actives are kicking butt - the bass lines from the various hip hop "artists" are palpable. Bombs have an impact that makes one wonder if a subwoofer is needed.

Then our hero is talking to the fake blonde in a church. The echo effect that one gets when talking in a large, empty church is all around you.

These speakers can do almost anything. And they do everything well.

What would I change? I would love a version of these speakers in a large enough cabinet to handle triples of the 8 inch woofers used in the big Brystons. Tune it to about 28 Hz.

But, then, the EP800 does all this and more for bass, and I would imagine the cost difference in the speakers would be more than the price increase would be for the larger cabinets and woofers.

No - don't change a thing.

Very entertaining, Craig. Are you using a centre?

No center in this system, and no surrounds - all two channel.

I've already suggested to Ian to leave them alone and work on the next great thing.

As for Bryston T Active Signatures, I'm working on SlimPikins to pack them in a carry-on and fly to my place to compare.

Are you sitting in the diffuse or far field?

I am on the sofa. The speakers aren't.

That's very technical.

Down here, we don't have diffuses for furniture, so I was trying to answer in American.

Ummmm Craig ... I think all those dudes (and dude-dets )in South America may take exception to that remark ...

Don't look at me - every time I am in Canada, I try to explain that Canadians are every bit as much American as I am, and they argue. Now I know there are two of us who know America means a continent, not a country.

In your parts of America, do you have the latest tech like we have up here?

Depends on where you go ... some people don’t even have a bass trap ... no less one as sophisticated as that ... I assume it does something... or is there a vent behind that your trying to silence...

If you are asking if we put carcinogens behind wall decor, the answer is no.

Of course it does something. The bottom one is for a 3,128 Hz peak with Q=0.8. The top one is for a low Q, 834 Hz offender.

If you can believe it, the furnace filter manufacturer did not know the resonant frequency of those filters. And the lady at Fanny's Fabrics had no idea what the damping coefficient of the pillow fiber fill was. Thankfully I have Canadian technology at my finger tips to ascertain such particulars.

Ok I’ll bite ... how did you ever figure out a filter and stuffing would do any thing
Did you hold up different objects and determined that by trail and error ...
Did you test the lady at Fannys fabrics first or did you go straight for the pillow stuffing? Did any animals get harmed in these tests?

Wow you guys still have Fanny's Fabric.

Our last ones here in Vancouver closed probably more than 20 years ago now. One's a Sikh temple and the rest became car dealerships. Cool haven't heard that name in a long time we still call the lot a couple km away Fanny's, those of us who used to go at least. Now we're getting high rises all through that neighborhood. {16 in total}

On a serious note - even the largest bass traps have almost no effect on the 56 foot long sine waves that a 20 Hz signal represents. They usually tame the nodes above 100 Hz. And even there, it's usually pretty subtle.

Yes, Craig. You'd need at least a 15 foot deep trap for a 20 Hz note.

I did some math and physics. If you look at it closely by clicking on the thumbnail, you'll see it's a combination diffuser/absorber. I also did testing with human subjects and they were not harmed. The depth of the imaging, particularly in the centre, is significantly improved.

Having furnace filters like that on the wall looks kinda cool. I'd like to paint them but I can't find paint with the right acoustical properties.

It's not a Fanny's but I call it that because there's a lady in there I call Fanny 'cause she has a nice one. I go in there and make her day once in a while by bringing her a Timmy's.

Bahahaha! Furnace filters are wall decor in your part of America? I just have to move there because that's my kinda place!

Mojo ... who has the furnace filters as wall art? I think it's you, and you were making a statement with them.

Craig, James Tanner had these in use at a recent Toronto audio show - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=3&theater

The sound was incredible!

I am curious how the imaging and soundstage of those "pseudo line arrays" was.

Time for another update. Spin back to January, 2004 - it was our first subwoofer shootout between an SVS PB-2 plua (dual 12's) and a pair of Hsu VTF-3 Mark II's (single 12 each).

Open Range - a terrific western with Robert Duvall and Kevin Costner - was released on DVD. It became an instant classic for the subwoofer deep gunfight scene at the end. Pistols were all mid bass, then the big scatter guns would HIT your chest.

We did it last night with just the Actives in 2.0 mode - no subs. WOW !!

From the opening scene with the immersive lightning storm to the gunfight, it was an outstanding performance. The scatter guns PUNCHED you (I later measured the frequency - the scatter guns centered in the 35-40 Hz range.)

More than that, though, was the attention to detail of these speakers. Off scene cues like a horse riding in had you hearing the horse off to one side before seeing said horse.

Soft wind right before the battle scenes was clearly audible, adding to the suspense.

ZERO negative issues, LOTS of fun!

Oh good. My 5.3 set-up may end up being 2.0.

We did some back and forth between live acoustic guitar and the same guitar through the Actives, using a Shure microphone.

The Actives do an astonishing job presenting both the guitar and realism in space along with bringing the subtle deep bass inherent in every acoustic guitar body.

This is where accuracy REALLY shines.

But which is better? Live or recorded?

I've been to a few live performances the last couple of weeks and my buds and I agree they totally sucked acoustically compared to my systems. They were all an awful blob of sound with no discernible depth, width or images. These performances included acoustic and amped.

Mojo - We use a digital recorder to have access to replay the live track as often as we want. This isn't listening to music casually. The Actives do a tremendous job placing the guitar front and center, with lots of detail. Even the subtle bass one hears when the performer's hand hits the guitar comes through.

What kind of details do the actives give you guys if you use a lousy recorded C.D.?
I have plenty that I can no longer listen to without headphones as my M80s rip them apart.

Brendo - In one of the previous posts (and months ago), I made the point that these speakers are so revealing that they will have you reviewing the quality of the recording instead of the speakers.

You also make a great point about the Axiom line. 12 years ago, I did a blind test over an entire winter between the M80's of that era, some Paradigm Studio 100's, Onix Ref 3's and Energy's top of the line towers. The Axioms were about $1000 per pair back then, the other speakers all between $2000 and $3500.

In blind testing, the M80's were the most revealing and had the widest, deepest sound stage.

It's just hard to describe the additional detail that the actives bring over "regular" speakers.

That's so cool!!!
but kind of annoying so many C.D.s are just plain bad. With Tidal and other services, the same songs I've managed to compare they sound great. As does Vinyl. Somehow the same C.D. is almost like a misaligned layering coming apart.

Could be a totally TRIPPY night with some Actives and a bad bunch of C.D.s

Have you noticed any totally out of place/distant instruments/singers yet?

Brendo - Most of the "reference" discs we have here are well recorded. I need to go through and find some junk.

I ordered an Emotiva XMC-1 with the Dirac software tonight. When it arrives, we will be experimenting with how good Dirac is, and does it help or hurt the sound quality of the actives.

Also ordered XLR cables for the lowest possible noise floor, and when everything arrives, we will be taking the next step and getting an EP800 into the mix.

When time permits, I will also be doing a 4 month summary of the LFR-1100 actives. Hopefully, it will be interesting.

Craig, did Emotiva tell you what "refurbished" means?

From the product page:

" When XMC-1s are traded in by customers for our newer Atmos based processors, they still have many years of service life left in them for use in movie and music systems. In light of that, we've created a new recycling protocol where we carefully inspect, refurbished, update, and renew XMC-1s. By giving the XMC-1 an Act Two (movie reference since we're home theater geeks), we've found a way to be more sustainable and eco-friendly, while at the same time provide customers another incredible audiophile-quality AV preamp processor choice."

Dirac was something i was looking at years ago. Never pulled the trigger.
Our media room usage dropped off for awhile and i found myself to be the only person using it from time to time. It has picked up since and i'm starting to look at finally doing an acoustic response graph of the room. It depends on whether a laptop ever comes to this domicile at some point so i can run the damn software.
Need to evaluate 'A' before assuming one needs to buy 'B'.

This will all end up in the 4 month write up ... but a couple of thoughts for now:

1. I was thinking the RMC-1 ... but after some research, it became clear the biggest benefit to the RMC-1 was Atmos and other surround formats, things that don't matter in a 2 channel system. I was also considering a high end 2 channel pre-amp, but it reports are the the XMC-1 is a tremendous 2 channel analog preamp, with the addition of Dirac Live for $99.

2. Last spring, I started shopping for state of the art speakers. I was looking at Magenepan 20.7's, Magico S-5's and B&W Diamond series (802) ... and of the 3, only the Magnepans made music sound natural. Then I saw the actives, and talked to Ian. He gave me a 90 day trial, if they didn't meet every need for an ultra high end speaker, they would go back.

They are not the show pieces in terms of snob appeal, but since I don't know any snobs, that wasn't an issue. Put simply, the LFR-1100's are the best music makers I have ever heard.

Craig, why do you believe XLR will be beneficial for you?

I am checking to hear if there is a difference in the noise floor between XLR and RCA cables in a home audio system.

Like

I would expect, unless you live in a steel mill or electrical substation, any difference you hear will be due to differences in parts between the two interfaces or vendor implementation.

The RMC-1 is a bit too new ... and you would end up as a involuntary beta tester. The biggest benefit IMO is 16 channels and the promise of future expandability. It’s totally the wrong device for straight stereo. Since Im interested in 2 channel and surround I decided to go the 8805 route for now. Figure It will keep me happy while I wait and see what future holds in this ever changing surround and room correction space.

I will definitely be interested in hearing your take on Dirac.

Rich - I was also tempted for the 8805, as I already have a 7703. The store owner nearest me said for 2 channel, he could not hear a difference between the 77XX and 88XX series, so the Emotiva won. The fact that the refurb unit was $1299 with Dirac didn't hurt.

Based on my experience with the 7703, I think you will be thrilled with the 8805. One cool aspect is you CAN run Audyssey and turn off the mains for 2 channel, and still have it EQ The subwoofer.

Swapping out the 7703 isn't because it seemed like I was missing anything (in fact, we also have a PS Audio Stellar Gain preamp that gets raves, and the Marantz matched it for sound quality), but rather wanting to try Dirac and also get a feel for Emotiva's preamps.

I may grab a pair of Emotiva 5 channel amps this fall to compare to Axiom's - that's a whole different story, though.

Craig, do you know if the amp below is a new product?

https://www.amazon.ca/Marantz-MM7055-5-C...04085&psc=1

The power specs for the above are for 2 channels only. No 4 Ohm specs.

Mojo ... that Marantz has been around for a couple of years.

Yeah...it doesn't appear to be similarly good to the 1000. :p

Folks are reporting very good noise performance though.

Craig, have you also considered Monoprice for comparison?

I would have bought the 77xx series but wanted the extra channels... I’m sure I would not be able to hear the difference between any of these preprocessors ... that said the surround and room correction implementation might be noticeable between brands.

Mojo ... Monoprice has some serious quality issues. For the price, I could not recommend their stuff.

Rich - Hard to beat the 8805 for its ability to do everything.

That's really too bad about Monoprice's quality. When I look inside their unit, I see a very well thought-out layout. They are also very transparent about unit specs. In fact, they are more transparent than vendors whose units cost 15 times more!

I am speaking to personal experience with Monoprice. As with many Chinese made stuff, the look is pretty, the longevity isn't.

I am glad Ian brought driver manufacturing back to the land of bountiful beavers. Hopefully all PCB and unit assembly is done in the shade of maple trees.

If memory serves me correctly there is still one part that is made overseas. I think it's a small plastic injection molding part, but everything else is up here in the great white north

An update - the Emotiva XMC-1 is still showing as "paid but unfulfilled" in my Account. Basically, this means they had a full week to ship the unit and didn't do so.

It could be these units are being refurbished on the fly, but as there has been no communication, nor any info on the site stating this, there is no way of knowing for sure what's going on.

You could be waiting for years for a unit to be returned and refurbished.

Time for an equipment update along with some fun with music during a blizzard .......

Yesterday was a complete listen of "The Wall" with the Yamaha CD-2100 SACD player, and it was AWESOME! The kick drum centers at 35 Hz, and it was hitting me in the chest. The actives are again making music fun.

Emotiva XMC-1...should be shipping by the end of the month.

A new pre amp that claims to play with the big boys - the Akitika PR-102 ... is a pre amp that is only $459 in kit form (thus the name of the company - Akitika is a palindrome).

It is a straight forward design with high quality parts, and made in USA. I Will compare it to the $1700 PS Audio Stellar Gain and the Emotiva XMC-1.

Their GT-102 power amp is a Class "B" in Stereophile for amps, and is a 50 WPC kit for $314 - we have two of those on the way.

This may open high end sound to those who thought they couldn't afford it. Under $1000 for a pre-amp and power amp - with a pair of M5's, M-3's or even the towers. Look for a complete write up with the M-100's.

Craig, are you doing the assembly? The charts for the amp look impressive. I've been wondering what crosstalk attenuation is acceptable in audio.

Mojo - after explaining that a trained monkey would be better at building the kit than would I, it was decided that Akitika would send completed units.

For full disclosure, I believe I told Dan (the owner) that flames shooting out of the component (after I built it) would probably be detrimental to the review process.

Yeah, flames, smoke.

So, I was listening to the SACD, The Power of the Orchestra - Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition, Night on Bare Mountain, Antique Sound Labs integrated SET tube amp, Sony DVP9000ES disc player, 2 Michaura M66s (2 x 6.5" Axiom drivers, 1 x 3/4" titanium tweeter from the Merak line of speakers made by Axiom) and 2 Dahlquist 15" subwoofers (1 speaker atop each sub)

Anyway, the music was FANTASTIC, I was peaking, utterly transported between this realm and the upper regions as only music can do, when I smelled something wrong.

White smoke was pouring out of the port of one of the Dahlquist 15" subs. Lots of smoke. Stinky smoke.

I quickly disconnected the sub, picked it up (heavy) and ran out the side door, put it down and hit the port up with my fire extinguisher.

What ever happened to clean CO2 extinguishers? You wouldn't believe the mess this extinguisher made.

I will say, that immediately prior to the fiery death of that sub, I had never heard Mussorgsky sound so good. I suppose the event would have been more appropriate playing Wagner.

I look forward to your review of the kit components! Your reviews are always great Mr. Craigsub!

"Anyway, the music was FANTASTIC, I was peaking, utterly transported between this realm and the upper regions as only music can do..."

Careful. Mike will come after you.

The Emotiva XMC-1 has shipped, along with the XLR cables. Getting new toys is ALWAYS fun!

The Emotiva arrived, so I took a couple of hours yesterday, and tore the system down, and rewired with the XLR cables.

The XLR's have dropped the noise floor to the point where one needs to put one's ears about 3 inches from the tweeters to hear anything - and then it's a very faint hiss.

The lower noise floor has brought the dynamics out even further, with a more solid imaging on instruments and vocals.

Right now, this is still with the Marantz 7703 still in the system, along with the Yamaha CD-2100 SACD/CD player and 10 channels of ADA-1500 amplifiers.

The Marantz was left in for now, as I like to swap one thing at a time into the system. The Emotiva will go in either later today or next weekend, and experiments will start with Dirac Live.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on comparison. Being they are both such well regarded processors.

Is the Emotiva one of the newer ones with 16 or more channels? A lot of the youtube reviewers have been waiting for them ti implement Dirac since release.

Last night, I actually had a spare hour to do some listening to a "Masters of Acoustic Guitar" speaker. SO - for a interesting test that was inspired after watching a video on the $30,000 per pair Magnepan 30.7's - I walked around the room including to the sides and behind the speakers.

No matter where you went, it sounded like a guy was playing the guitar in the room. It was slightly less palpable behind the speakers, as one would expect when walking behind the guy playing guitar.

If you read between the lines in Ian's posts on the LFR-1100 Actives, he will often say "we are onto something here."

They are onto something here, and the science is getting noticed in a LOT of places. Floyd Toole developed the idea, and companies are taking it to heart in flagship speakers.

In 40 years of a hobbyist, I have seen countless times where speaker and amplifier companies touted a "live - you are there" sound. The technology today is getting us closer to that happening all the time.

Where Axiom has an edge is there are NO layers between the consumer and manufacturer. At the normal "I can wait 21 days" pricing, a full system with dual EP800's, 10 channels of ADA-1500, and the LFR-1100 actives are $19530.

Add this to the often used additional deals, and one can get down to close to $15 or $16K.

This is shipped to one's door, for a system flat to 12 Hz. Dynamics galore. A neutral sound that just present music without a hint of harshness at any listening level.

Music is here, and this is fantastic.

Exciting stuff! Do you think it would be possible to obtain similar results from a smaller pair of active omnidirectional speakers in a smaller space? Active LFR660s? Or an active omnidirectional version of an M5? Hoping we'll eventually see these breakthroughs trickle down to the rest of the lineup.

An active 660 with a pair of ADA-1000-5's could be a tremendous value. The only issue might be this: The LFR-660 passive is $2120 less than the LFR-1100 passive.

If this correlated over to the Active side, the Active 660 would only be about 20 percent less total dollars than the 1100 with the ADA-1000-5's.

If one "package price" is about $9000 and the other is about $11000 … is there enough savings versus performance?

Andrew and Ian can wrestle this idea.

I’m sold sign me up!!

You inspired a snoop around on Axiom's main site. They have a package with the 660's that includes a pre-amp, DSP and ADA-1000-4 in one package.

The "I can wait" price is a bit under $4000 - and Axiom offers other specials, too.

As we already have an ADA-1000-5 here, I am going to check with Ian about doing a comparative review of this $3900 package to the $16,000 active 1100 package.

Nice find! That would be an interesting review for sure.

To cool Craig.
Hope you can set that up very intriguing. Wonder how iT would compare with so many fewer drivers?

This comparison between the LFR-660 package deal and the LFR-1100 actives will take place, but it will be a while. I am still working out a lot of issues with the dealership buyout, ugh.

I'd be curious about this comparison.
If i were to get any LFR, it would be the 660s to replace our M60s.

Still trying to decide if i may ever replace the big Tannoy D700s in the living room or not. Going to start with getting a more powerful amp. The Anthem running them was always intended to drive media room speakers and it runs out of high end juice when i crank up the Tannoys. They don't play clean and it gets ugly.

Hi guys - I have started to do a full out review on the actives without use of a subwoofer. It's going to be done in Microsoft Word and sent to Axiom for use as they see fit.

Then the next step will be with a pair of EP800's.

Good morning - the last few weeks have been pretty challenging, to say the least.

The review was finished last night. Ian and Andrew have it, and are free to publish it in any way they like. My only hope is that it helps in some small way.

Craig ... Can we read it?

It will be available shortly for everyone to read. I'll post a link here when it's live.

Thanks!

Andrew

The guys in Dwight have been extremely busy ... I was planning on waiting until the first review got posted before beginning part 2 - adding a single EP800 to the mix. I will get this started over the weekend.

This is going to be even more fun!

Hi Everyone,

After a way too long delay, Craig's LFR1100 Active review is finally live!
Enjoy!

https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/lfr1100_active_review/

Good stuff!

I guess the mentioned part 2 will not happen....unfortunately.

Excellent write up. Very well done and a great read.

Nice work Craig.

Glad to finally read this. Thanks Craig.

Beyond a good review it also gives some of Craig's history in audio. Amazing to see how many things he's had the chance to hear over the years, especially some of the uber expensive 'high fidelity' gear. Perhaps someday as a bucket list item i could include doing an A/B comparison of my various home speakers including Axiom vs. oh, say a Wilson Audio product.
I know the NRC has had the chance to measure some Wilson Audio speakers but not since 2008 it seems.
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16
At least back then i think it could be included their accuracy, based on a frequency response, pales compared to many other brands. Revel and Thiel have always been quite impressive.