Alright, here's what I'm going with:

• active LFR1100 in walnut low gloss
• 1000-8
• dual EP500 in walnut low gloss
• Air Freedom
• on-wall M5 in rosewood low gloss
• upgraded QS10HP to walnut low gloss
• upgraded EP800v4 to walnut low gloss

I'm hoping I won't need a centre. If I end up needing one after testing the active LFRs, I'll get a 180HP in walnut low gloss.

The dual 500s will be placed up front and fed from the dual LFR DSPs. The 800v4 will be fed from the Onk.

Chaaaching!

I'll be interested to hear your review of the M5 on-walls. Been toying with the idea of purchasing a pair.

Shaun, I suggest you try them. Everyone I've talked with privately and all the posts I've seen about the M5 bookshelves or in-walls, say very good things.

I decided to not do the M5 on-walls. The M5s on stands are just perfect for me. Maybe I'll do actives in the future. There are a few reasons for my decision. First, I was drawn in by the real wood (mine are vinyl oak) and was dreaming about rosewood. I've been advised by a couple of friends to not do it because they'd detract from my primitive weapons walls. I can now see their point. Second, I love how they sound and know darned well if I go on-walls, the soundstage will not be as magical. I was reminded again this morning of how much I love their sound when I was listening to Vinyl Jazz on iHeartRadio. The tunes out of them were incredibly seductive. Third, someone very high up at Axiom told me in a very polite way to stop f*c$ing with my room because it looks and sounds awesome.

If you have to go with on-walls, I suspect you will really like the M5s.

More like SNAP! As in Mojo's brain snapped. I'm over the moon with my entire system and now I'm about to take a huge risk with something completely different and new.

Mojo, thanks for the reply. I was thinking of the M5 on-walls as I have the VP180 on-wall centre channel which is a beast. How do you like the M5s on stands for regular stereo listening? Is there enough bass or is a sub woofer required?

Dude, no sub required. You don't need on-wall fronts just because you have a 180 wall mount. With the 180 wall mount all you lose is some bass because it doesnt have to image stereo like two fronts.

I've said so much on here about the M5s - all of it so good. Axiom hit it out of the park. Blows my M80v2 away. Here is a link to my review titled "holography and black magic" part way down the page:

https://www.axiomaudio.com/reviews/index/list/product/930/

Trigger pulled. The Freedom and Rosewood M5s will have to wait. Active LFR 1100s, dual 500s up front fed from the dual DSP boxes, two QS10s - all in walnut satin low gloss. A 1000-8 will feed all LFR drivers except the woofers. I'll be trying 1500-3 and 1000-3 for the woofers and center. All of this will be mated with the 800v4 located behind my MLP, my 160v4 and my Onk. The QS10 will be fed from a 1000.

As far as I'm concerned, when Ian posted the listening window and sound power curves for the active LFR, he left all other competition in the dust. Even more impressive is the macrodynamics these are spec'd to deliver and I know from the M100s, the microdynamics are already there and will be even more fully exposed given the lack of passive filters.

And like Craig has said, the value is simply unbeatable.

Shaun, I have my M5 bookshelves 13.5 feet apart in my living room. I am sitting 12 feet away on the diagonal. With a Chromecast Audio feeding them through a 1000, I am hitting 103.5dBC peaks. The 1000 can't do no more through that Chromecast. The soundstage is huge, instrument position is easily discernible, it is clean, it is non-fatiguing and the bass is well-controlled and full - no sub required. I know with the 1500 feeding them, they could hit 107dBC peaks cleanly. They will go higher but then I can hear woofer distortion and depending on the song, mid-woofer distortion.

For reference, on my main system, the M100/800v4/1500/firestick/Onk can hit 108.5dBC peaks at 12 feet away on the same tune when the Onk is set to 0 (reference). The system can be driven to peaks of 110 clean dB and as high as 112 with some acceptable distortion from the HP drivers. At 110 it becomes painful.

A really nice rocking level on my main system is -5 on the Onk. That delivers 104dBC peaks in 2.1. That level doesnt apply to all songs. Some I have to turn up to +12 and that delivers an incredible and immensely overwhelming performance!

Mojo congrats on your purchase ... looking forward to hearing what you think ...

On your M5 setup it looks like you have them on you wide wall.
I'm planning on trying that my self and was a bit concerned on the acoustic front as I never setup a system for imaging that way before. It must be working well for you even though that bay window looks ominous for sound. Anyway, now I know why your always looking out of it ..

Rich, thanks.

The conventional wisdom from books, boards, etc is not to go long. I agree with that if what you are looking for is soundstage depth. If you are looking for soundstage width, length is the way to go. Length can result in more bass problems though. When I listen loud, I have to cut the bass by 6dB. Port plugs don't cut it for me because they affect the fidelity.

With the M5s, I can hear width on some material well out to the side walls. As for depth, it's certainly not like my main room but if you haven't heard my main room, you'd find the depth exceptional. I have absolutely no complaints for a living room system. The majority would accept this for their main system for sure.

I had the M3s, M5s, M50s and M100s set up across the width and the backs 6 feet out from the front wall. The depth was incredible! It was like an acoustic lens...LOL! But no width.

This set-up allows me to laugh at neighbors and view the art and tools on my walls while enjoying terrific sound.

Guys and gal, I can't help myself. I think I'll move to three more 800s for a total of four.

It only money.
Enjoy.

Mojo I know I’m late in suggesting this but I think that 4 EP600s would be the way to go unless your Out to impress ...

I hear you. Nope, never out to impress. Everyone knows that no matter how good stuff looks, or how big or how heavy, if it don't sound good to me, back it goes!

Given the new info on the 600 I’m all over it (same, or perhaps a tiny bit better then the 8, just not as loud) ... for me its an easy trade off as my room is less then 3200 cu ft.

I have to admit I did like the impresive statement of the 800 although after the holy cow factor wears thin ... 4 of them might be a bit of an overwhelming presence in the decor.

I will drown in a sea of 800s if that's what it takes to please me. Decor be damned.

I want to swim in a sea of transparent, permeating sub-bass and feel 'nad tickling and gut punching as I surrender my few remaining brain cells to acoustic spanks.

Then I think you should buy 8 and stack them

Why stop at 8?

Exactly, Why stop at 8 ... you go for it ...

Uhmmm...I can only stack 1.8. I need to sink the basement lower into the creek running under my house.

Well if your gonna start modifying the house maybe Ian will come up with one of those “back to the future” subs ... you know the scene.

Ian built that sub. While he was water-skiing. Barefoot. On one leg. And teeth only; no hands.

With Craig straddling his shoulders.

My future pair of active LFRs will be fed by a 1500 for the woofers and a 1000-8 for everything else. According to the ADA manual and specs on the Axiom site, I'll have 2300 continuous and 7500 dynamic Watts to share between the pair. The break-down for each speaker is as follows. The first number is the continuous rating and the second is peak:

a. woofers: 650/2250
b. front mids: 187.5/375
c. rear mids: 187.5/375
d. front highs: 62.5/375
e. rear highs: 62.5/375

Although the 1000 can share 1000W/3000W amongst the drivers it's feeding, it can only feed about 188/375 to each mid array. I expect therefore my system to ultimately be limited by the power available to the mids.

I don't expect to have any SPL limitation at my 12 foot listening distance particularly given the 800 that will be fed from my Onk and the two 500s being fed off of each DSP. But say I do end up putting a 7500W peak in with no subs. My system will only handle a 1500W mid-range peak (375*4) before some channels of the 1000 go into protection. That's only about 20% mid content (1500/7500) and I've read typical music is 44% mids. Now I don't know where that range starts and stops so the 1500/HP drivers may take some of the load below 250Hz.

Anyway, even if I had more power available for the mids, I'm not sure they can take it. I figure it's the mids that are the weakest compression link in typical music.

Not that I expect to be anywhere close to a practical limit in my application mind you.

My suspicion, and I don't have much data to go by, is that the 5.25" mid-woofer is good to 150W continuous/400W peak from 250Hz to 2.2KHz.

That means each mid array on the active 1100 can take 300W continuous which means a 1500 is needed to get all you can out of the mids.

Thought I’d bring my reply over to this thread with regards to my active 1100 amplification situation...

After a lengthy discussion with Debbie who pulled in Ian, we settled on the best starting point being repurposing my monolith 7 for the front 6 channels and getting an ADA 1000-4 for the rears. I was trying to cut this to the bone and had the idea of just using my monolith to work the front 6 channels and adding the rears later. Ian explained why that would not work with the LFRs and the need for rear amplification.

The monolith and 1000-4 do have a 1db gain difference but because I can split them front vs rear, Ian pointed out that I can use the DSP to balance that out.

Can’t say enough good things about Ian, Debbie and crew for all the help and time taken to get me squared away and I am certainly looking forward to getting my paws on these speakers!

David, thanks for responding. It sounds like you're in good shape. Is this 2.1? If so, what are you doing for subbage?

This is going to be a 2.0 setup for music listening.

No $$$ for subbage :|

Maybe one day I might be able to add an EP600...

I think you will be just fine. I've driven my M100v4 with a 1000-3 to 107dBC clean peaks at 12 feet away in 2.0.

I’m hopeful that will indeed be the case. I believe my biggest problem (other than finding a waf approved piece of furniture capable of holding the future amp weight, which took a while to solve) is figuring out which music is going to make these suckers truly shine and assemble a worthy demo playlist.

I'm very worried about the music choices as well - and sources!

That monolith appears to be a stunning choice. Even though it's spec'd at 28dB voltage gain, at least two sources I've read claim it's closer to 29. That makes it an even better match for the ADA.

Appreciate that input. The HT will have to live with 2 unpowered channels for a while but it’s a small sacrifice long term.

For sources I’m considering getting some nice flac albums, possibly from hdtracks, and would consider an LP purchase if it’s of sufficient quality.

I’m open to suggestions

I don't know what a good source is for finding high quality recordings. By that I mean preservation of dynamic range and soundstage. I've been building up my own playlists of what I think is well-recorded music on Spotify but I am no expert. I just let my ears guide me.

Just today I found the following database. From that I picked out Patricia Barber's Black Magic Woman and it's a real winner. Anything by her is if you like her music:

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

What players are you planning to use? Craig just bought himself a $40,000 CD player...LOL!

When I try the actives in the living room, I plan on using a $35 Chromestick Audio connected to a Pioneer for pre-amplification.

In the main room, I'll be using an Amazon Firestick 4K through my Onk, or a PS3 for CDs or a Yammie tape deck.

Music will come in through Spotify and of course CDs and tapes.

Many will giggle their guts out at my ridiculous choices of sources particularly given the speakers.

Also check out the following link:

http://dynamicrangeday.co.uk/award/

I believe we have the same opinion with regards to what constitutes a good quality recording.

The 4K Firestick is a very capable little device. I was very impressed with how much it’s improved over the original.

I will have two sources hooked up to the actives. An Axiomair transformer which will allow for my flac files, Spotify Connect, multi room audio and also serve as my pre. For when I want to sit down and be more deliberate about my listening I have a respectable turntable setup. It’s probably more than I needed but it creates an environment where you can’t do 10 things at once, like you can when you’ve got Spotify playing in the background. The whole purpose is to sit back, preferably with a nice drink, disengage from all the distractions and enjoy the music.

Thanks for the links, that’s great information!

Check out the album Grace for Drowning by Steven Wilson. I'm not a fan of the music but I can't help but listen given the recording quality.

Also To the Bone by the same artist.

Mojo, just about anything from Steven Wilson is worth a listen. I have seen him solo and with Porcupine Tree. His style of music is not for everyone however the musicianship is top drawer.

As you say, his style of music is not for everyone. I am finding out the best recorded music is not the kind of music I dig.

My son just told me he's been digging through the dr. loudness database and has discovered all the music he likes is in the red. The poor kid doesn't know what real music sounds like. His brain's been fried in that regard. LOL!

You should check out The Pineapple Thief (Your Wilderness & Dissolution). Gavin Harrison on drums (King Crimson & Porcupine Tree).

That is an amazing find. I wish they could all be recorded like that.

I am going to see The Pineapple Thief in Vancouver mid December. Check out their live concert dvd. It's a beauty!

I spent all last night listening to them. And part of the morning. Absolutely unreal. That was in my livingroom with the M5s. I thought to myself it can't get any better. Then I remembered I had a system downstairs.

So much bigger, deeper and wider stage, clearer, more real on the big system!

I sure hope they sound the same in concert.

Bruce Soord (The Pineapple Thief) just released a solo album "All This Will Be Yours." A very good album as well.

You're correct, sir! Similarly good.

2x6 suggested The Accountant soundtrack. I've always been suspicious of 2x6's ear-brain system but no more.

Very good one, Phil. Really enjoying it.

Boom boom! Percussion rich!

Rich, do you have the active LFR+dual DSP+ADA1000+ADA1500+dual EP500+800 checkout procedure ready yet? Mine are arriving soon you know.

Mojo,

I'd sure you're much more qualified than me on setting up, assessing, and check out a system. I'd say you're anticipating and getting excited over celebrating Christmas a little early. Take some valium or perhaps a couple of fingers of whiskey ... You need to rest up for the big day.

Rich

I can't be under the influence of alcohol when I receive the LFRs and associated gear. However, following the completion of my successful site acceptance test, I plan to imbib on the 12 year old Bunnahabhain islay single malt scotch whiskey gifted to me by my Dutch buddy. Such imbibment shall take place with my select group of close, dear friends as we graze on a selection of meats, cheeses, fruits, breads and sweets. Following the grazing, we shall each select a primitive weapon from my walls and prance merrily into yonder forest to chase coyotes and cougars as we howl at the moonlight.

My active LFR driver polarity tester is ready. This is one of the 381 functional tests I'll be executing in addition to 193 performance tests. I have a laser interferometer and gas chromatograph coming for some of the tests.

ahhh, looks like if that speaker doesn't pass the polarity test your gonna stab it to death with that knife ... you don't fool around do you ...

Rich, I'm sorry I didn't give you the full context. I used the edged implement in the photo above to strip the battery connector wires. The implements below are the ones that will be used to exact justice on the drivers. They are ordered, top to bottom, in increasing driver size.

All my speaker cables are built. Time domain reflectometry reveals all cables are 0.06 Ohms and under. 0.04 Ohms is attributed to the conductors and 0.02 Ohms to the connectors.

When I pump 7500 peak Watts into the LFRs, I'll be losing roughly a mere 75W on the cables. I am happy with those results.

I got everything working an hour ago. Not sure why I need subs...LOL!

...or why you are wasting listening time posting! LOL

I'm at work so I can pay for all this. I was posting from yet another meeting I should have declined.

Time for initial impressions after 15 minutes of listening without any calibration or tweaking of any kind. This is a temporary set up in my average-sized living room. Eventually this entire system will be moved to the man-cave

I am astounded with the walnut natural satin (low gloss). The finish is absolutely stunning. I can really appreciate this finish after being around so many vinyl-clad speakers all my life. I can't wait for my peeps to see them in person. One of my peeps is getting the M5 in the same finish and I know she'll be overcome with emotion when she sees them.

The DSPs and 1000-8 were easy to set up. I made the RCA and speaker connections one channel at a time and documented my amp wiring and set it on the 1000 for future reference. As I connected each channel, I listened to it. It was a strange experience listening to each driver array by its lonesome.

I am using my Pioneer A9 to drive the woofers. The A9 is good for 70W average into 4 Ohms. My Chromecast Audio is connected up directly to the DSPs. While this provides high enough volume for most tunes, there are songs with high dynamic range that could benefit from more gain. For this reason, I will likely connect the Chromecast to the Pioneer and the Pioneer to the DSP. I will use another ADA to drive the woofers.

As soon as I listened to the active LFR bass, I realized what every other speaker I've ever listened to has been missing. The transient response is a thing to behold. It's like my Pioneer has this incredible grip on the woofers and will not let them misbehave. With bass like that, subs are definitely not needed for music unless you're into pipe organ.

The mids and highs are ridiculously clear and dynamic. I expected them to be far more dispersive with a wider soundstage than the M5 and M100 but have not found that to be so.

Along those lines, I expected the depth and width of the soundstage to be much larger than the M5 and M100 but it's not. The width is the same and there isn't as much depth. I tried all the positions on the BGC control but I hear nothing but more or less volume - no difference in soundstage. Toe in of varying amounts also doesn't help. As you can see by the photos I posted, my room is nowhere near damped. While this is disappointing, I realize this journey has barely started.

My system is plagued by noise which is very audible on quiet passages from my 10 foot MLP. I noticed this as soon as I connected the mids and tweeters. My interconnects are bottom of the barrel quality so I do suspect those. I have a couple of higher quality pairs so I expect to get to the bottom of this quite quickly.

Summing up my initial thoughts, impeccable appearance, incredible clarity and dynamics, the jury is still out on the LFR aspect which is supposed to result in deep and wide soundstage.

While I was driving home, I had a thought about the stage width. As soon as I got home, I toed them in so they were crossing 3 feet ahead of my nose. BAM! Width is huuuge!

And I neglected to mention, they have completely disappeared! This is something I have not been able to achieve in my living room with any speaker. The closest was the M5. Still looking for depth though.

I am absolutely shocked that I don't need to EQ anything or diddle with the subs and I have this pristine, detailed rendition across the entire spectrum. This is in a room that you all know I've had terrible problems with in the lows and the highs.

Harman should ask Axiom for lessons in audio engineering.

I remember asking jakeman what "real" bass sounds like. He told me to listen to Take Five. That's been my yardstick since then. I've never heard it in the room like this. Just friggin incredible!

I really hate to say this but I have to. The M100s are total junk compared to these. Sorry, not even close.

OK, these are a real game changer. You can FEEL these without turning them up to ridiculous levels. And you can hear things that were totally cloaked in other speakers like the M100s. I think whoever "professionally" reviews these is in for a real shock. I really am not exaggerating.

Phil, I don't believe you've heard better than these. I think you don't know how to set them up properly. Get your ass on a plane and come here to listen.

These are the first real speakers I've had. Everything prior to this moment was nothing more than teasing. But I couldn't possibly know how good these are without experiencing all the prior garbage.

Mojo - had my 7th 14 hour day in the last 8 days. So all I can say is cool stuff!

A little harsh trashing v4's to make your A-LFR point ... but like Craig ...

I guess you like them then ... a 2nd thumbs up ...

What can I say, Rich? Sure I have all these passive v4 here and I've enjoyed them...until now. I will say this. I still have not heard imaging like the M5s image in my main room. Their imaging in that room is quite uncanny really. Perhaps though when I take the A-LFRs downstairs, they will be even better in that department.

One thing I do know is I want active M5s in the living room with dual 500s. The LFRs are too damned big for that room even though they sound fantastic. Once you've heard actives, there's no going back to passives.

I thought I heard clear triangles with the M5 and M100 until I heard these. Sure the passive v4 were miles ahead of the v2 but these are light years away.

Oh boy... reading all this makes my FedEx status even more difficult to digest:
CLEARANCE DELAY

;(

I’ll have to live through your commentary for a few more days Mojo!

You got a FedEx status? I was backing out to go to work today when the FedEx truck drove up. I'm looking at him and he's looking at me and I get out and approach him and say "You got something for me?" And he says "Oh yes sir. Many things. Can you help me please?"

I go to the back with him and see Axiom boxes toppled on top of each other and feared the worst. I asked him what he'd do if I wasn't there and he said "I would leave it right in front of your garage door, sir." LOL!

BTW, these are also the first Axioms that I can put right against the wall and the bass is just uncanny. Tight, thick yet fluid and oh so loaded with energy.

Are you sure it’s actives and not just LFR s ... bet what you might be asking for is an LFR in a M5 package ... active is a refinement. Craig might have more insight here ...

Maybe you are right, Rich. One thing I can try is to mute the rears and see what happens. BTW, I have not been able to get the "stereo everywhere" effect that Ian and Craig rave about. As soon as I shift away from my MLP, the stereo imaging collapses.

When I move these into the basement, I'll have more space there to experiment. That won't be for some time though. I want to get my fill of them upstairs first.

Rich, there is no question the rears add expansiveness to the soundstage and help them disappear. The fidelity I hear though isn't due to their LFR nature but rather the digital, active filtering. You will very easily hear details and imaging with these that are completely masked in Axiom passives.

Since Craig is too busy to give numbers, I'll start the math show. Sitting 10 feet away, with 1000-2 powering the woofers and 1000-8 powering all else, I'm getting 116dBC peaks. That was with my Pioneer cranked to the limit. This was straight 2.0.

I wasn't hanging around for that one so I can't tell you if it sounded clean or not but the whole house was ablaze. I also can't tell you if any of the ADA channels shut down. To say the bass was palpable is a big under-statement.

The bottom line from all this is the 1000 appears to be more than capable of powering these in my 4200 cuft space.

I just did a quick calc based on the published sensitivity of the actives. That 116dBC figure represented about 800 peak Watts per side. So according to the specs for the actives, they've got 3600 more Watts to go before they compress. Ears and brains will fry long before that. LOL!

I have to add here that with these speakers, a comfortable listening level to the song I used for peak testing is -30 on the Pioneer. So...tons of headroom.

That song is Hit the Road Jack.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2F1NPECOyqEyimPu5TEY8P?si=-QfepfKeTdC4a3ochJXtGg

The dual 500s add absolutely nothing to songs like the one above or Burning Down the House. They are indeed working but are simply not needed. And OMG, I never thought I'd say this about a pair of speakers but the bass is absolutely sublime!

Reading this isn’t making the waiting any easier but man I’m getting excited

Ok, the imaging in my terrible living room, with no calibration to speak of other than tweaking the speaker positions, is just crazy stupid good. In DSOTM Money, when the money is being ripped, I can actually "see" the tearing starting at the tweeter and expanding out as it's being torn. On the same album, I can resolve tiny details that are merely inches (degrees?) apart. Placing sounds behind or forward of each other is no problem whatsoever.

I'm just a sucker for audio VR. Lol!

I'll bet if one can get these far enough away from the front wall, the soundstage will be hugely deep. I'll be able to do this in my basement.

Recall I have zero EQ on because I have a legacy receiver. No EQ needed. Holy crap! I absolutely hate Ian and Andrew. You bastards!

The thing is guys, you can't possibly know what you're missing until you hear it. I thought the M5s and M100s were good. Lol!

I guess the M5s really are good compared to the KEF LS50 I recently heard at my place. Oops! Am I supposed to say that on boards?

CurvedAir, wait till you hear your first real bass out of a pair of speakers. And then pristine mids and highs.

Take your time though. Nothing worse than connecting woofer outputs to tweeters and have to deal with the ensuing ignition.

Mojo, not sure if this is in your wheelhouse but what does this sound like on your actives?
https://open.spotify.com/track/3DfmDN7WJ7XeoVL8s1H4Iw?si=CEXxxRFfSG2TO54kWinHVw

I’m especially interested as to when the double bass comes in..,

Let me give a listen.

I was listening to this at -30 and was averaging around 85dB at 10 feet away. Peaks were hitting around 94dB. Of course those may not be true peaks because my meter isn't professional grade.

She is in front and center just above tweeter level. When I say in front, I mean in front relative to a guitar to her right and a guitar further away to her left. All instrument positions are crystal clear but the recording venue appears to be boomy - enough to be annoying actually. The piano is off to her left and sounds "collapsed" rather than expansive. The best part of this recording is her voice.

It's quite possible that piano is angled into the soundstage but that's just me trying to put an image to sound.

Oh double bass..hang on...

1:21 if that's what a double bass is.

Thanks for the feedback!
Best I’ve had to listen are M60v2 with EP500 so looking forward to comparing notes.

The double bass is behind her.

1:21 is the double bass

I really like this one. I find the recordings on that album boomy and the piano is not in the same position on all tunes.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5mb8d1F1YpajcnnoHhQFNh?si=PUWQnjMZQ7u-DGkWrAllcg

Ah great. I know what a double bass sounds like now.

Wait till you listen to the percussion and sax on this.

https://open.spotify.com/track/4fQXCYQXivIgsupO7B5yrj?si=c9u9mjnkSvyVqpjleDK2Kw

I really like the one you have linked as well!

RE: post #434361 (getting hard to track the threads)
Making the wait even harder :|

This is an incredibly well-made recording. My M80v2 botched this badly and so did the 600v2. The M5 and M100 with or without the 800v4 were leaps better. Now they both can't compete with the active LFR - no sub required. Enjoy!

https://open.spotify.com/track/62dpuFjYSBBshX8C65oOm3?si=evyRw5lUT_SE9AhXf1hRfQ

Added to the list!

Here is one more. No sub needed...heh heh.

https://open.spotify.com/track/4RaUQtDq09wwhlndTYSfga?si=OfKyDIh2RVCuK9EkySV4PA

2 of my 8 packages just arrived. One speaker and my ADA and sorry to say I’m extremely disappointed with FedEx. Speaker clearly took a serious blow and the mid grill is cracked and was pressed through to leave an impression in the speaker casing. Front tweeter metal grills we also dislodged.

Will have to wait for the DSP to test but not a great start.

If it's any consolation, two of my tweeter grills were dislodged. I haven't checked if the domes were damaged but I doubt it based on what I'm hearing. Finding a way to keep those grills attached during shipping would be righteous.

My dual 500s are completely useless with the active LFRs for music. The smaller HP drivers, under the control of the DSP and the ADA, start and stop much faster than a single 12" driver. There's less mass there, less inertia, which makes them so much easier to control.

Mid-bass punch was so much better with the passive v4 over the v2 but this is a completely new experience. The smack from the actives leads to heart palpitations. Maybe when I move them into the bigger man-cave, a sub will prove useful for music.

The sound from these is absolutely effortless. Last night, my buddy couldn't believe what he was hearing. There is a staggering amount of detail across the entire range akin to a live performance.

Recall my source is a $35 Chromecast Audio and Spotify Premium. I'll try my Pioneer CD player today to see if there is any improvement over what is already an incredible experience.

Awesome news.
Glad you're making such sources shine. Now we need to hear of Craig sources performance.

Brendo, thanks.

For the record, my width and depth problems are gone. I had my front and rear tweeters swapped and my left mid-range also. I checked the wiring three times but I guess the fourth time is the charm.

The same fidelity as before guys but now incredible depth across a brilliantly wide and tall soundstage. I am now a believer not only in the active department but also the LFR department.

I apologize to anyone I may have worried.

Any active LFR owners out there who need convincing these actives deliver bass from the Gods, listen to this amazingly well-recorded track. My dual 500s cannot touch what the actives can do.


https://open.spotify.com/track/4RaUQtDq09wwhlndTYSfga?si=bfckWGTrSR6ePMK1gpuebw

One of my M3s arrived with its tweeter dome dented because the cover came half on. Can’t imagine the g-forces these thing’s experienced if it was dislodged in shipping. Axiom sent me a new tweeter and in less then 5 minutes all was good.

BTW Mojo ... the speaker sounded fine ... at least for the small amount of listening I did with the damaged tweeter.

Yes, I've listened with dented tweeters before and all was fine.

With my actives properly wired up now, I am going to retract my previous statement about passives being garbage. I'll give you some context.

Up until this morning, I had the tweeter channels swapped on the right and the mids on the left. I also had the BGC switch set to FAR2 which boosted the rear array by 3dB. Of course what it was actually doing was boosting the front mids on one and the highs on the other. The end result was that the upper range was hot. This resulted in what sounded like greater clarity. It's well known that the louder speaker and especially boosted upper end, can fool listeners into believing it's better. So in that department, I got fooled into believing the fidelity of the actives was so much more superior than the passives.

In fact, the M5s, M100s and active LFRs are quite close in fidelity. Where the actives differ greatly is in the following: a) the resolving of detail horizontally, vertically and into the soundstage, b) the quantity and quality of bass across its entire range and improved fidelity in the mids and highs, and c) their dynamic capability which speaks not only to peaks but how well they can accelerate and decelerate.

These three improvements add up to a far more satisfying experience than passives. The v4 passives will do all the above but not as well. But you can't possibly understand or know this until you've experienced it.

Can they get better? Let's just say I can't find any faults. I haven't heard any faults with any v4 but I can clearly hear big improvements as I move up.

The dual 500s have now been moved from the living room, where they added nothing to the actives, to the man-cave. I dropped each one next to each M100. I haven't calibrated but my initial impressions are that two 500s or one M800 are both equally good. There is no need for all three and that is for both movies and music.

The soundstage down there will be very hard to beat. It's already wide, deep and tall. I know the M100s and M5s could not do what the actives are doing in my living room. Will they be able to do the same in the man-cave? We'll have to wait until closer to Xmas to find out.

I already know a few things. The basement system is missing a lot of detail. And those M100s, crossed at 40Hz to the subs, are struggling with Poem of the Chinese Drum right around 0 on my Onk whereas the actives nearly ripped the walls from my studs with no subs. Why that is, I don't know. Is it the 1500 losing control due to the crossover? Is it my Onk's pre-amp? We'll have to wait until closer to Xmas to find out.

The dual 500s took the punishment down there like two champs. Will I even need subs and a centre down there with the actives? We'll have to wait until closer to Xmas to find out.

Listening to vinyl jazz on iheartradio. Man, it was so sweet on the M5s but now it is wider, deeper, taller, greater separation in the images...just superb!

I made a huuuuge mistake. I shoulda bought two pair. I can't let them go from the living room. OMG, what am I gonna do now?

Why is it that I like Take 5 so much over iheartradio even though it sounds like crap compared to spotify? The fidelity is not there but the soundstage and imaging is.

Really enjoying the updates Mojo!

Due to the customs delay I’ve been reduced to cable making... at least everything will be ready when the remaining items arrive.

I had fun doing that a few nights ago. Instead of using a stripper, I used my Cold Steel Bush Ranger Light.

I have another surprise. One of the supposed features of the LFR is stable imaging that can be enjoyed from multiple positions. I can attest to the fact that the A-LFRs' laser-focus imaging stays rock solid at least 18" to either side of the MLP; perhaps more but right now I don't feel like moving my chair to find out.

I was actually never interested in this feature but it opens up a couple of possibilities. I'll bet that in my cave, 12 feet wide on the speakers and with a 12 foot MLP, I may be able to do without a centre. And in the living room, I can get a 2-seater at my MLP so that my FWB and I can enjoy the same imaging.

I've listened to all kinds of music on these - well-recorded and badly-recorded. There is not a single tune that I haven't enjoyed. Of the ones I enjoyed least, they were recorded in a boomy studio or the engineer boosted when he shouldn't have. I am astounded.

Blair, your speakers are obsolete.

Mojo - remember when I mentioned that the Actives will make you start reviewing the source - CD, Spotify - etc???

You have entered that zone. It's TOO much fun!

Craig, I remember everything you say. That's how important your words are to me.

It's very interesting how I can listen to vinyl jazz on iheartRadio and enjoy it so much. It's for sure not as clear as CD or Spotify but nonetheless, the soundstage is there. The best way I can describe it is I hear the images on the 3D soundstage but those images are lower resolution. This is analogous I suppose to seeing fuzzy figures in the distance and then using binoculars to see the details. What this tells me is that spatial cues are preserved even in a low resolution rendition.

In some ways, it is easier to relax to a lower resolution presentation. I've often thought about a "time-machine" mode in the DSP. Choose your timeline: tubes, vinyl, reel-to-reel, cassette, CD, stereo, mono.

Last night I listened to Light My Fire in mono (below). Although the vast majority of the presentation was in the center, I was surprised how it spatially extended into and across the soundstage. In some ways, it was more satisfying to listen to than the stereo version.

Although I find no fault with the actives, I suspect more can be done to offer enhanced virtualization. Surely by incorporating additional drivers, a higher degree of control is given to the designer to linearize the amplitude response curves. The challenge there of course is driver integration. And I still think more research is needed to understand if 1 Hz resolution is adequate for frequency response sweeps. One of the things that should be researched is image and soundstage collapse as the SPL is increased. What I mean by that is as the volume is increased, the soundstage moves toward the plane of the drivers and images start to over-lap. This is the case with every speaker of course. So there may be an opportunity to shape the response as a function of SPL although I do realize this would require more computational resources.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7aghcqWLL9hGMIb0VFdbyD?si=6OctZR-WSG6xsgM8urA9BA

There is zero variation in the resistance of each driver voice coil array between my left and right speakers. They are perfectly matched in that regard.

And the ADA DC level on each channel is nil.

I'm listening at a very low, very relaxed level of -54 on my Pioneer. I measured less than three milliWatts peak per side...LOL! No problem whatsoever picking out all the images. Piano is way in the back right out my living room window and cymbals are in the front right and lower than the piano. Trumpets appear on the left, higher than piano and forward of the cymbals. At this volume level, it's as wide as my 5-pane bow window which is 10 feet.

By the way no highs and no lows to speak of on this track.

https://open.spotify.com/track/04fYIpNFPunUy3i18uSind?si=fheOMA-9QEqeFE2QLlN_ZQ

Here is an exquisite piece to test your high end. I've listened to all kinds of exotic tweeters and mid-ranges but I've never heard highs of this caliber until the actives arrived.

I've also noticed I can keep the volume down quite low with these actives and still get immense enjoyment out of them. Historically, I've had to turn things up to get emotional satisfaction but not with these.

Ian did an absolutely amazing job on the curves.

https://open.spotify.com/track/4XQkZ7B0itWNhvYl2YYDyy?si=bBeOowUaS5OvebIl6UVwMw

Oh my goodness. High Frequency Dissonance. Jangle my soul.

Phil, these actives are the last speakers I'll ever need...until Axiom comes up with active LFR II...LOL!

My vintage RCA cables from 40 years ago that were interconnecting various Kenwood, Sanyo, Realistic and JVC components are doing the job with the actives. These cables may actually be older than 40 years because I scrounged them from friends' places. I spent some time re-routing them and now 60 Hz noise is gone.

I can now confirm the actives disappear in my living room much better than the M100s and my reference standard, the M5s. How much better? How about all the way?

They are quite amazing actually. So visually large and yet I don't perceive them when I close my eyes. To get them to perfectly disappear, I had to set the BGC to Off for the right side and FAR2 for the left. Fortunately to achieve disappearance, I didn't need an analog BGC control - the existing digital settings are fine - but will it be granular enough for the man-cave? We'll find out around Xmas.

I have to say I did not expect them to disappear in my living room. Axiom knows I was not pleased with the fact my M5s did so well in my living room and then completely moved out of the way in my basement but the M100s were not able to do the same. Ian pointed me to passive LFRs and I am glad I waited. I suspect the actives disappear better in all kinds of spaces.

I didn't have to do much fiddling. Some may say they were just fine and I was being pedantic. Craig however knows that I have a strict, scientific protocol about such things and it includes the piece below I use to gauge acoustic disappearance. No doubt AAAA (Serenity_Then) has much fancier tools and methods but mine are "similarly good".

https://open.spotify.com/track/4XHXQEOG6UmRAdSoKNc0aA?si=8OEeM3l0RraLpyJelaLj6g

Lol.
Not sure I have the content to go any better.
You tube and Netflix get most of my time and the kids are soaking up the PS4 every chance they get.
I need a better room and the content will come. Lol.

So as consumers, how do we determine how much more a speaker is worth compared to another? By the number of images each renders? The resolution of the rendered images? The three-dimensionality of the soundscape? The vastness of that soundscape? The number of microdynamics? The emotions elicited from the macrodynamics? How high the volume has to be before one is satisfied with the music rendition? What risk they carry with regard to room integration? Whether they truly need a sub for music?

With regard to the above, the actives are superlatively superior to the M100v4 Axiom flagship direct radiator. So much so, that a 2.7-fold difference in price for the speaker and amplification relative to the M100 is an incredible bargain. Throw in a very likely need for a sub for music when using the M100s, and the actives are only about a 2-fold increase relative to the M100s.

BTW Craig, I think with the first paragraph above, I've invented some attributes you might want to consider in your score sheet for DBLT.

I also say the 3-fold jump from the M5s to the M100s is not as great a value proposition as the jump from M100s to the actives. I say that because I got the M5s first, listened to them for some time, then got the M100s and was not emotionally swept away. With the actives, I'm an emotional wreck!

I thought that was your normal state ...

What a speaker is worth is dependent on the person. This changes over time with exposure and training. Once you start attempting to identify differences in tone, dynamics, space your training your self and become more critical of what you’ll except in a system. I think at one time we were all happy listening to music from the 2” speaker in our clock radios.

BTW this applies to more then sound ... video, wine, food .... the more you experience and start to analyze (if you know it or not) the more critical you become in that area

You are very correct, Rich. I see that in myself and I've been surprised how much more critical listeners my friends have become through listening to my systems.

Rich, I do understand completely how you must be feeling right now. Craig and I are enjoying our active LFRs, in an audio Nirvana I could not have imagined was realizable, while you have to wait at least another month for your gear to show up. No one should have to endure that.

Want to hear bass to blow your mind?
Listen to The Wind Is Blowing by Time Being!

I don’t mind waiting. I’ve been very busy with other stuff and occasionally take a break here because it’s fun to be with a bunch of like minded people who enjoy audio as much I do (think you and Craig enjoy it even more then I do).

The reason Axiom has held my attention since early the early V2 days (took me many years before I signed up to post any thing) was because I believed in their design philosophy. Ian and Co. are not only out there to sell product (not to say they don’t push product) but seem to be truly interested in research, scientific improvement, and a desire to educate (with reasonable explanations vs the normal trust us, see the great tech and pretty picture marketing).

Mojo, let me know what you think of this:
https://open.spotify.com/track/7v0mtl6oInUtHOmTk2b0gC?si=2leSl8ycRCGSRJ-GyN1S7A

Unfortunately Phil, I don't have this song on Spotify. I found other works of theirs but I would not call the bass exemplary.

This isn't my kind of music but the high hat is in the center and is deep outside my window just above my head level. Singer is in front of the cymbals but lower and still outside of my window. Guitar is presented in left and right speakers because that's what the engineer intended. Tonally it's very good and big. This was at -39 on my Pioneer which is like less than a Watt average. Lol!

It is a big sound

I have finally received everything and got it hooked up just in time to leave town for Thanksgiving :|

Did get to listen to Take Five, Analog Productions 45rpm....

WOW, it just pops!

Have to start going through all your recommendations when I return home Mojo.

CurvedAir, I'd be very curious to know how you've set yours up (distances, etc) and where your BGC switches are.

I just listened to the below version of Take 5. What struck me was something one of my buddies said one day about my M100 setup: your soundstage is too wide. I love wide, deep and tall but listening to this particular tune, I found a 12 foot wide piano sounding odd. I would have actually preferred this piece to be deeper back and narrower.

Maybe this kind of control is possible via DSP enhancements? I'm not complaining but rather thinking about how an already incredible experience can be further enhanced.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5wSJqW96JJfSqpnytwCeQR?si=DsvmNGp_Q2i-8BIrRKbzdg

CurvedAir, put this on your list. This is how I like my music. This is up on a stage and back, with some images in front, some in back and absolutely crystal clear. This is all out my window except for the piano which "spills in" to the front left. There are no instruments that collapse into the speakers. What would make this better is if more was happening to the right of center.

BTW all, this is real imaging and not imagining. I don't have to close my eyes or concentrate.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2TPT6ryG3XxNptKgLji597?si=Tw-sXoSJSoaSgrBA1Mveqg

Craig, do you know the bass tuning for the M100s and M5s?

Ian and Andrew have done such an amazing job on these actives. It makes me wonder what we could possibly upgrade to from here.

https://open.spotify.com/track/1yw2UbcA9Xlbh3jvMPzetw?si=ilmBsK0fSj68yhRITMcdcQ

I was comparing between the man-cave M100/EP800/dual 500v4 system and the living room active LFR system today.

There is no doubt depth, width, height, imaging, fidelity and bass in the man-cave soundstage. Of those, the only thing that stands out compared to the A-LFRs, is the degree of depth. I surmise this is because the backs of the M100s are three feet from the front wall while the A-LFRs are only 8". That depth however is flatter than the A-LFRs. Also recall that the 8" of depth, is giving me a soundstage clear out my bow window; so I am not at all complaining and am in fact thrilled. One thing to note about the depth, with the A-LFRs, instruments are more distributed into the depth. In all other respects, the A-LFRs are noticeably superior. Even the bass...and every other band. Wow!

I'll qualify all this by saying they are two completely different rooms and the cave system is equalized with Audyssey XT32. This is also no double-blind test but I am sincerely trying to report what I am hearing.

Mojo,
I’ll need to measure when I get back home but I’d guess they are around 10 ft apart, maybe a foot away from the wall and think they were set to 0 or +2 far. I can’t say I’ve had enough time to experiment.

I’ve never heard that version of Take 5 before so looking forward to listening to it.

Ok thanks, Curved.

I've decided I can't let these go from the living room.

I don't know if Craig agrees, but for music, this is the best bass I've ever heard sub or no sub. Not by a small margin either. This is in a 1900 cu. ft. living room that is open to the rest of the house.

As I said before, no sub is needed but since I have twin 500v4, why not go for the gusto?

So with Craig's advice, I've locked in the twin 500s. These are sitting on the inside of each A-LFR. Each is fed off each DSP. Each sub is wide open. The DSP cross-overs are set to 40Hz which means the LFRs hand off to the subs at 40Hz.

What can I say? It sounds really good! You get that transparent, musical, room-filling bass the sealed Axiom subs excel at! I will experiment with running the LFRs wide open as well while the sub dial is set to 40Hz.

Here's what I did:

1. Set sub to 150Hz
2. Set DSP cross-over to 40Hz
3. Ensure sub is off, phase at 0, polarity normal, gain at 1/3
4. Play 40Hz and measure LFR SPL at MLP
5. Turn sub on, measure sub SPL at MLP.
6. Toggle polarity switch. If SPL goes up, leave it there. If it goes down, toggle to previous position.
7. Slowly turn phase and watch SPL. Leave dial wherever SPL is max.
8. Adjust sub gain for 3dB above LFR SPL
9.Enjoy.

If you have two subs like I do, in step 8, adjust each sub incrementally until you get a 3dB SPL with both working.

Mojo - The bass from the actives is exceptional, but can still be improved upon with the EP500/600/800.

Let's start here - from 2002 until 2010, I tested over 100 subwoofers here, and did hundreds of hours of blind listening. It was in 2005 that Ian and I first talked, after a test of the vented EP-500 and EP-600.

I had, after a lot of blind listening tests, picked those 2 as my favorite 12 inch subwoofers. Fans of Hsu and SVS went ballistic - even though I had actually owned more Hsu and SVS subs than pretty much anyone.

During these tests, a lot was learned, and I posted this info on the AVS forum back when it had useful information instead of the marketing tool it is now.

One of those pieces of information was this: A subwoofer that is linear from 32 Hz up to and passed the crossover point, and that can do so at high levels, will give one amazing music performance, as well as cinema.

Too many subs were going after the 20 Hz output level and forgetting linearity.

What you are experiencing a speaker with three built in "subwoofer" drivers that are tuned to about 38 Hz and linear to 34 Hz. The lowest frequency of a 4 string bass guitar is 40 Hz, while even the largest kick drums are usually at 40 Hz or above.

You are also getting this linearity out to the 200 Hz crossover, which means the harmonics of the fundamental frequency are presented flawlessly in your system.

This adds up to what you consider to be the "best subwoofer."

Properly set up, the EP-500 can add a lot to your actives, but it will take work.

Aye, great explanation. I did the work, Craig.

Mojo - you posted while I was typing. It looks like you are well on your way!

Yup. I've spent some time listening to two different configurations: 1. the one above which is subs wide open and DSP crossover at 40 Hz and 2. subs at 40Hz and LFRs wide open.

The first configuration sounds fuller but lacks some mid-bass snap. The second configuration is not as full but has a nice snap to it. I kinda like both...LOL.

I'm going to try fooling around with the flat/boost switch.

Boost is way too much in the living room. One and two above are both very good depending on mood.

BTW, this is what I use to judge musical bass.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5kHlvtGBiLEPcUBhd35CSj?si=ZDye3aP7ToO0OKU7Nqp9tA

I have great bass with the 800v4 downstairs. A complete dream compared to my 600v2 smiling clown I had to stuff three pillows into the pie hole of. Sorry, Craig. That damned thing was right out of Stephen King's IT. I read the holy scriptures to it, got Stephanos the Orthodox priest in to sprinkle holy juice on it but it didn't work. Many times I thought of pulling out my treasured Smithfield Armoury 0.45 and blasting it right in the maw.

Then came that blessed 800 and I found such bliss. It sounded like manna from heaven right out of its box. I shivered and undulated as that bass permeated the aether betwixt my quarks. My 'nads felt good too.

These 500s in my living room though, they are speaking a far more nuanced bass alphabet. The 800 can't do in my cursed basement what the dual 500s are doing in what is turning out to be my holy living room.

So I have a brilliant effin' idea. The living room can be my music room and the basement can be movies. Now to add four more feet of depth to my living room for an even deeper soundstage.

Rich, when you get yours, listen to this. This is not imagining. It's imaging.

https://open.spotify.com/track/14TOo8SQP8YkAC4ExlvDaM?si=zk2LHGweRym02fDOHAydDA

This -34 on the Pioneer, and 10 foot distance from the A-LFRs and dual 500s is giving me close to 100dB peaks. My headroom is absolutely sick!

What's real interesting is as I turn up the volume, I end up over-loading the room with the subs. I don't have that problem with LFR bass. The subs are too much for this space. Sounds real sweet though on my regular, -34 gain.

So with the LFRs and a sub, it is possible to have too much amp and too much bass!

Drop the subs to 0 dB against the Actives - you like to crank it up. As you crank it up, your system starts to hear the bass on a more linear basis. Check what it sounds like then.

Whoa! I made a huuuuge mistake. The DSP bass management always sends full signal to the sub. It acts as a cutoff for the LFRs. So I set the DSP to 40 and the sub to 40 and it sounds very natural now. LOL!

Tomorrow I'll have to retune it per the steps in my previous post...which are now incorrect.

From Ian:

"We have kept the control on the DSP so it only affects the LFR1100. The output to the sub is always full range. This allows you maximum control as the LFR1100 and the sub are controlled separately; the LFR1100 from the DSP, and the sub from the crossover adjust on the sub. Setting the crossover to 0 on the DSP would mean the LFR1100 is running full range but it would have no affect on the output to the sub."

Excellent! Now I can start trash talking you into dual EP800's.

That won't work. It will block the show for the neighbors.

Its freakin' amazing how I don't need EQ. I would have never believed it unless I heard it!

Wuss - they make a horizontal version.

I'm out of excuses. Bring them on!

I did a lot of listening. I swear the subs are doing nothing. If anything, they're making things worse. Keep in mind I don't listen to bassotronic - just normal music. But like you say, maybe I need to do a lot more work.

Craig, in order to get my LFRs to play nicely with the 500s, I think I need to replace their Axiom wiring with Nordost Valhalla 2 Reference cables. Agree?

Stop it.

Mojo - another idea to try is to leave your LFR-1100's running full range. Run jumper speaker wires from the 1100's woofer's binding posts to the speaker level input on the 500.

Set the crossover to 40 Hz on the 500's and adjust to taste.

Hey Craig, the DSP allows you to run the LFRs full range and adjust the 500's crossover to your heart's content. That's how it is now. Thing is, I don't hear the 500s doing anything unless I turn them up so much that it becomes distracting.

From Ian:

"We have kept the control on the DSP so it only affects the LFR1100. The output to the sub is always full range. This allows you maximum control as the LFR1100 and the sub are controlled separately; the LFR1100 from the DSP, and the sub from the crossover adjust on the sub. Setting the crossover to 0 on the DSP would mean the LFR1100 is running full range but it would have no affect on the output to the sub."

Mojo, I know this. Running the jumpers from the speakers to the sub ensures you are getting proper phase easily.

In fact, doing so with the subs next to the actives, driver facing the same direction as the triple 6.5's, will make for a full range, flat to 17 Hz, phase correct system.

A great disc to demonstrate what the EP can add would be on Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature CD.

The 2nd track has a 16 Hz synthesized kick drum that hits both 16 and 32 Hz.

With the EP800 in the system, the deep bass ripples through you. Take the sub out, and you still get the 32 Hz hit, bit without that ripple effect that 16 Hz adds.

You are experiencing what you are due to a lack of content below the mid 30's.

A properly dialed in sub should be unnoticeable until the rare time you get bass in the 15 to 30 Hz range.

Your content and upstream equipment may have you in a position in which a subwoofer doesn't add much.

Craig, very valuable input. Thank you.

Even if the sub is jumpered as you say, the sub's DSP will add a delay relative to the LFR's woofers. How do I compensate for that?

In a receiver with full subwoofer management, complete alignment can be achieved via the distance setting on the receiver and phase and polarity settings on the sub. My receiver is 2.0 with pre-outs so the only subwoofer management I have is the DSP crossover, and the sub's gain, phase and polarity controls.

I imagine the subwoofer output goes through the DSP as well rather than being hard-wired... in fact I think it has to since it needs to combine inputs from the L and R channels.

There could still be different path lengths as a consequence of not going through any filter logic, but it's also possible the subwoofer signal goes through a delay of approximately the same length as the filter stages. Don't know.

Hold on, I answered the opposite question from the one you were asking... and it's too late to delete the post... and I have to go out and try to get ready for the next big dump of snow... today looks to be the last snow-free day of the year... and I obviously haven't had anywhere near enough coffee yet.

So ignore this post other than as a potential source of amusement.

And no, I haven't had time to set up the LFR1100's yet, but at least they are finally in the right part of the house with the strapping taken off the boxes.

John, you're hilarious. Lol!

Mojo ... Start by setting it up as listed above. Then spend a few weeks with trial and error.

You may never need the subs. Personally, I look for material with bass below 20 Hz.

You don't. This means you are sane.

Actually, I don't look for anything in particular other than music I like. If it has content below 20Hz, I want to hear it.

I don't mind experimenting and trial and error but I do like to start as close to the finish line as possible with some science.

So here's what I've fingered out:

1. My LFRs are 10.7' away. My subs are 10.25' away. I can't get them any closer because of heat vents.

2. In time, the LFRs are 9.5 msec away. The subs are 9.1 msec away. So this means the sound from the subs will arrive at my ears 0.4 msec earlier than the LFRs.

3. At 40 Hz, 0.4 msec is 5.8 degrees. This is because a full cycle of 360 degrees is 25 msec at 40Hz so 0.4*360/25 = 5.8.

4. So I should be able to slightly advance the sub's phase control by 5.8 degrees and have complete alignment.

So far so good. The million dollar question in all this is,"What delay do the LFR and sub DSPs add"? That's a question for Axiom.

Note then that if any delay beyond 0.4 msec is added by the DSPs, the only way, for my set-up, to align the sub and LFR would be by setting the sub's switch to invert and then advancing the phase control. This off-set will still miss the portion of the waveform equal to the delay through the DSPs.

It appears that it's impossible to achieve complete alignment in time and phase without a distance control if the subs are closer to the MLP than the LFRs by the transit delay of the DSP.

Craig, on that second track from Steely Dan (What a shame about me), I have to turn the 800 or the 500s up a lot from reference to feel the infrasonics. Is that also the case on your end?

Mojo - no. I am running the system with subs and mains calibrated to 75 dB.

The only two variables left are sources and rooms. Both are cursed. LOL!

Oh...and me!And I've been cursed at a lot.

And I see you have 3x800. That's another gap I have.

Craig, in my living room system with the LFRs and twin 500s, there is no question I can feel the infrasonics at -33 on my Pioneer pre-amp. But I have to turn the gain on both 500s all the way up! This is with a 40Hz crossover and the LFRs full range.

This is via Spotify Premium on Chromecast Audio. I've put the CD on hold at the library to compare. Thank you again for all your advice.

Mojo - It will be interesting to read your results with the disc vs. the Chromecast.

Oh I'm not gonna say nuthin'. I'm gonna let y'all wonder 'bout that!

Yes, we all know you are a master at keeping quiet.

Bwahaha

It took a few years for him to come out of his shell ...
but I think he warming up and might actually tell us ...

Pick up a few bundles of rockwool and stick them in the corners as bass traps.

If they don't help take them back unopened

I love it when you guys joke around and laugh. Just like when we were kids. I still am.

I gave up on trying to integrate the 500s with the active LFRs in the living room. That room's dimensions simply can't support extra low frequency bass.

So I moved the twin 500s into the basement. It took some math, but I got them integrated with the M100s and the 800. I can't phase align them perfectly with the QS10s. They are within 5 degrees of one QS10 and 7 degrees within the other and I call that good enough. There's nothing I can do about it.

I thought I had great bass and sub-bass, and I would have never believed it if I hadn't heard it myself, but the difference is astounding. Not only is the bass even all around the room, the tactile feel of it is incredible even at lower volumes.

Whoa the infrasonics have made me so damned nauseous. My sense of balance is out of whack.

Never mind Steely Dan, listen to Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bella Fleck.

Two 500s and an 800 are too much for this 4200 ft^3 room. I can't watch or listen to anything without feeling like I'm in a pressure chamber.

You wuss. Show some backbone!

The actives taught me there's such a thing as too much amp power and the dual 500s added to the 800 taught me there's such a thing as too much bass. And I still have a ton of headroom on those subs.

Perhaps you need to dial it a bit back ... not sure that your critical listening ear protection will do much below 30Hz ... especially if your cranking it to 120 dbSPL

Dialing it back is a reasonable suggestion. The subs in sum are calibrated to 75dB using the tone from the receiver (BTW that took more work than time and phase aligning). It sounds and feels wonderful for movies and music except for the fact my ear drums feel like compressed air is being pumped into them. I guess that's what good subbage is supposed to feel and sound like.

Point taken. I shall attenuate and gauge the resulting physiological and emotional responses.

Rich, the subs are dialed in more perfect than yesterday. Volumes are lower. Here's what I did.

Yesterday I was using the Onk's tone generator and my SPL meter. Today, I decided to use the tone generator with the Onk mic. With the Onk mic, I found that the summed SPL was 79dB - 4dB too hot. I adjusted each of my three subs to 69dB and voila! I got a sum total of 75dB.

I walked around the room and the bass was nice and smooth like yesterday. The real test though was music. I find some songs to be good at the calibrated setting. Others I have to bump up by as much as 1.5dB.

I am very satisfied with the sound from the single 800 and twin 500s. Of course all this will have to be re-calibrated again once the actives are in the man-cave. That should be interesting because I was planning on feeding the twin 500s directly from the DSP boxes. There is no distance setting on the DSP boxes however so I don't know how I'm going to time-align the 500s. Physical location may be an option.

It's interesting how all three subs are noticeably better than any two or one. This has to do with my room size. I am surprised how much I would miss even just for music with twin 500s. The 800 adds deep textures that once heard are difficult to forget.

This is a great tune to hear what I'm describing. There are growling guitar bass lines whose characters are only fully revealed with the 800 in my room:

https://open.spotify.com/track/5kHlvtGBiLEPcUBhd35CSj?si=Ct72nL7uSau-hO7m_DBdDg

The 500s add urgency and an additional kick to the bass. A sort of hardness from the bass drum pedal contacting the skin that is only hinted at by the 800. All subs are set to linear.

Mojo,

Speakers are 7.5 feet apart, 18.5 inches from the wall and around 8-9 feet from MLP. BGC are both at 0. (There is no back wall behind the MLP. It’s one large room with the dining room at the rear.)

Unfortunately been too busy for critical listening but I can tell you that ‘Pappa Was A Rolling Stone’ sounds fantastic!!!

That's real good to hear. Those distances sound good. It'll be interesting to hear how the sound changes when you mess with BGC.

Update on the 500s: each has no problem with the carcinogenic 15Hz bass test. Can't do 10 Hz like the 800 but definitely 15 and maybe less.

https://open.spotify.com/track/0qm3bEbmYBNVVQMF4KSEeP?si=x56EtfPoT6m8E-7dD5gUiw

Yeah ... meters usually are not spec'ed to be accurate below 30 Hz ... and then they only usually offer A or C weighting ... which I think is aimed at measuring work place noise ...

The A weighting, I believe, displays the relative loudness we actually hear (i.e. compensated for human hearing). C weighting is the most used and I have no idea why but it's closer to flat. Z weighting is absolutely flat and is the one I'm interested in but seems to be offered only in the most expensive models ...

So I'd imagine it's best to measure using C weighting and convert back to flat. C rating is something like -0.5db at 80Hz, -2db at 40Hz, -6.2db at 20Hz, and -8.5db down at 16Hz (compared to A which is -22.5, -34.6, -50.5, -56.7 respectively) ... if your device is capable of measuring it.

Think someone who knows more should respond here.

Rich

P.S. That's probably why your subs were a bit hot ... BTW C is 0db down at 200Hz and if your sub can get up there that's the frequency to use (also 160Hz is only 0.1 db down)

If I used A-weighting, I am sure I'd drive myself deaf. It would just be too darned loud. I think that's why C is used in audio. I have A and C on my meter and my meter is only spec'd good down to 125Hz.

Steely Dan 2AN sounds better on my two systems than in my 13 year-old Mazda.

B.B. Gabor's first album stubbornly continued to sound better in my truck than on my stereo until I got the Sierra-1's and M5HP's.

After that I mostly used the truck (standard AM/FM/CD) audio for news and traffic... until I took the AutoTrain to Florida and someone stole the radio antenna while I was down there.

Gabor? Gabor with Chico Hamilton?

Alright, I have an update regarding Steely Dan's "What a shame about me" on 2AN.

I have two systems: main floor and cave.

Main floor consists of A-LFRs driven by a 1000-8 and a 1000-2. The pre-amp is a Pioneer A9. My two sources are a Pioneer D6 CD player and Spotify over a Chromecast Audio dongle. Both are connected to the A9 using RCA cables. All RCA cables are grungy, 40 year-old, bottom-of-the-barrel.

The cave consists of M100s, 800, and twin 500s - all v4 - driven by a 1500-3. My pre-amp is an Onkyo TX-NR818. Sources consist of a PS3 for CD, a Google Video dongle I used for Spotify and a Firestick 4K that I now use for everything. The cables are mostly grungy like the ones on main.

Main floor: no audible difference between CD and Spotify over the Google Audio dongle.

Cave: Higher and gooder bass output over Spotify using the Firestick 4K compared to PS3 (CD and Spotify) and the Google Video dongle (Spotify). No audible difference between PS3 (CD and Spotify) and the Google Video dongle (Spotify).

Of course this was very scientific, level-matched, blah blah.

I am not at all surprised by these results.The Firestick 4K has proven to be a very good device.

Then I’d go C weighted at 150Hz (that should be in the linear region of both your sub and meter). I’d would not even try and correct for the curve as the offset at 150 is basically insignificant.

It might be an interesting measurement to take at your current settings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msrn1MpdMd0

Metropolitan Life (first track) is the one that never sounded good on my Axioms. Seems to have been mixed with a bump in the 2-3 KHz range and always sounded best on speakers with the "BBC dip".

Not 100% sure but seems like between v3 and v4 the crossovers might have been tweaked just a bit in that range.

The bass on my actives is so much more satisfying than my 500s or 800. I think it might be the difference in mid-bass...not sure...

Time for some more maths and numbers.

I played my favorite tune today for bass peaks (see link below). This is the tune that shuts down my ADA with M5s long before my ears give out at 10 feet away. That happens at about 1:33 where the M5 draws in excess of 340W. This is right about at the 375W single channel peak limit of the ADA.

Shut-down is not a problem with the active 1100. At 10 feet away, I can push the actives to 116dBC which is the absolute limit of my pre-amp and more than 10dBC above my ears giving out.

This brings up the matter of how close to the limit is the single channel that feeds a trio of HP woofers at that tremendous bass peak. I can say now that the 1000 still has a few volts it can go before it shuts down.

This means the power of the 1000/active LFR combo is a good choice for a 2-channel set-up in large and even very large rooms.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2F1NPECOyqEyimPu5TEY8P?si=op24PPfZSH6qsnRV0HUkYg

One other worthy note of a recent change in my M100 system. As I've reported, my M100s did not disappear as well as the M5s in my main space. I re-arranged my furniture and now have a recliner at my MLP. I've found when I lean the recliner back a foot, the M100s completely disappear like the M5s.

My twin 500s needed about 20 hours for break-in. No idea what had to break in but they sure sound more awesome! I can't say I experienced the same thing with my 800 but then again, Ian had worked that one in pretty good in the chamber before sending it to me.

Mojo, I’ve been listening to Kind of Blue tonight and have to say the width of the sound stage on the actives is just fantastic. On ‘So What’, when Coltrane comes in on tenor at 3:27 he seems so far out to the left and then Adderly hits right back on alto on the right...

https://open.spotify.com/track/195PCdTb9A1iicUZBmspwg?si=Cuwo4VNnSKGR2kjIG15-Rg

Such a great find. Thank you!

For a woofer and mid-woofer work-out. I love this with the M100/800/dual 500 combo but it's more frightening on the actives.


https://open.spotify.com/track/4RaUQtDq09wwhlndTYSfga?si=nVppnpqjSuGdpNs4N0k1yg

Those with actives, power off your woofers and listen to what a pair of active M22s would sound like.

I find I get a wider soundstage with the front tweeters powered off, all other drivers on.

Don’t you think that if axiom developed active M22 they would try and extend its low end a bit more then where the xover on the active LFR cuts over to the wooffer ...

But I get you take...

Indeed but it's surprising how good it sounds already. I'm not saying I'd take it as it sounds but I'm gonna experiment on neophytes and see how they like it.

M32.

1 x 1" titanium tweeter, 1 x 5.25" driver, 1 x 6.5" woofer.
Use an M60 cabinet and load the bottom with amps and DSP, so we'd have active speakers without external amps/DSP.

Where does the DSP cross over from woofers to midrange ? I was thinking probably the same ~250 Hz as the passives, which means you would be losing a fair amount of bass relative to M22's.

But it's probably a good indication of what M2s would sound like though

(I can say that because I own and enjoy M2's)

The crossover is at 250. The mids are 20 dB down at 40Hz. It's not a brick wall filter.

"Shut-down is not a problem with the active 1100. At 10 feet away, I can push the actives to 116dBC which is the absolute limit of my pre-amp and more than 10dBC above my ears giving out.

This brings up the matter of how close to the limit is the single channel that feeds a trio of HP woofers at that tremendous bass peak. I can say now that the 1000 still has a few volts it can go before it shuts down."

Regarding the above, I took more measurements today and did some listening to just the woofers and just the mids (independently). Yes, you can push these actives to 116dBC with a 1000-8 and 1000-2 (woofers) but don't expect it to be clean.

I took voltage measurements at the woofer channel outputs with and without the left and right woofers connected. At 0 on my pre-amp, I measured 27V open circuit and 25V with the woofer load. That means the 1000-2 is sagging under that load. That's not surprising given the power dumped into those woofers is in excess of the per channel spec. Now is that the only contributor to the distortion in the HP triplet? I don't know but the triplet doesn't look very physically distressed to me. When I get the 1500 on it, I will know better.

The mid-woofer is another interesting case. That doesn't sound too good either at the maximum gain of my pre-amp. I measure 29Vrms on the front mid and 45V on the rear. I have BGC set to FAR2; that's why the rear is so much higher than the front. If the mids are 6 Ohms, that's 280W into the front and 675W into the rear. I believe the first number but not the second so that brings into question the impedance magnitude of the mid.

As for the tweeter, I don't dare listen at 0. However, on open circuit, I measure 5V on the front and 13V on the rear. If the tweeter array is 4 Ohms, that's 12.5W on the front and 85W on the rear.

I need to put the above into context. On the actives, at 10 feet away in my 1800 cu.ft. living room which is open to the rest of the house, I listen at -33 and sometimes even less than that depending on the tune. That is very satisfying across the entire range including the bass which just pops! At that level, we are talking 1 Volt into the HP triplet. Compare that 1 Volt to the 27 Volts at full gain. The headroom is therefore huge.

Keep in mind my instruments are about as primitive as those used to operate on the Joker. LOL!

Guess you’ll have to upgrade now ...

I listen anywhere from -33 to -40 with the actives. I need low power, low noise, high accuracy!

It's been some time since I listened to M5s. I'm at my friend's, listening to them through my almost 20 year-old Denon 2105. It sounds to me like the highs on the M5 are more clear, airy and have a longer sustain than the actives. They sound more satisfying. I think I'll have to do a careful compare at my place.

I've managed to achieve M5 holosonic projection and pristine bass in my friend's living room. The holosonic projection is equivalent to what I was able to achieve with the M5s in my basement. It sounds like the M5s are projecting images in the interstitial space that exists between their backs and the front wall 4 feet behind them.

The M5s are almost a third of the way into the room and so is her couch. When she came into the room, she let out a big "What the cluck did you do to my living room?" So I says in my soothing man-voice, "I welcome you to listen before passing judgment." When she finished listening, I said I'd put it all back and she gave me a dirty look. No way! Once you hear it, you can't go back!

I'm back home now comparing the M5s with my actives. No question the highs from the M5 are awesome but I hear details missing compared to the actives. They also appear at a slightly different point in space but that could be due to speaker positioning. The detail and image placement throughout the entire audible band is far better with the actives. Then there's that bass where there's absolutely no comparison with the M5 or M100.

Nevertheless, I am so absolutely happy for her. The M5s shine with the proper positioning in her room.

My neighborhood has been pretty quiet the last few days. That ended this morning. I opened the living room windows, turned the Pioneer up to max, and let the 1000-8 and 1000-2 spray CHIC out of the actives at a glorious 120dBC/m. While wearing my muffs, I observed the walking dead across my street come to their windows. Then we went for a nice walk while listening to disco tunes permeating my bland neighborhood. The cops haven't showed up yet.

https://open.spotify.com/track/28NBmftocOzTPEb6OYA9fW?si=5cA2CyTHQUmFV22zFTs71g

I think that counts as domestic terrorism under US law.

Good thing you live in Canada.

Don't tell our PM. He will outlaw active LFRs.

Brendo asked in another post what the actives sound like relative to passives. I thought I'd try to describe it here using a piece from The Doors I like very much for its lyrics (see link). This is all in my 1800 cu. ft. living room with no room EQ.

On the M100, Jim is back but not as far back as with the actives. On the M100, the sounds on the left and right are more collapsed into the speakers. With the actives, the left and right are behind the speakers and expanded beyond the speaker boundaries. In essence, the actives disappear far better. The bass out of the M100s is unbearable; I have to turn it down by 10 units on my Pioneer and another 6 units on my Chromecast Audio. There is no such problem with the actives. The over-all sound with the actives is bigger, more expansive and Jim's voice is outside my bow window while with the M100s, he is back but not outside. The actives have more immediacy and tightness to their sound. It is a much nicer experience to listen to the actives vs. the M100.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7mc2TP4Vzuyw2vNf1bLW9f?si=G36YBluCQc-8EP2OWRFFMA

Beyond this song, where available on the recording, the actives portray more images, with more space between them with higher resolution to those images relative to the M100. The soundstage of the actives is wider and deeper and sounds more expansive; everything sounds freer, more natural without any softness where there should be hardness and hardness where there should be softness - yin and yang is well-balanced. Even an untrained newbie immediately prefers the actives over the M100 judging from bass and mids alone.

On this particular tune, I can hear every one of the bass notes extremely clearly including the hardness of the pluck and drone of the harmonics. On the M100s, they are mushy, boomy and mashed together.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5uvosCdMlFdTXhoazkTI5R?si=9LH4vziJR3ODz_0kG_ClAg

I've found a tune that brings my active LFR system to its knees. Not sure yet if it's the amplification or the speakers that are the limiting factor. I can hear low frequency distortion at ungodly levels. This is likely where the twin 500s would help.

https://open.spotify.com/track/7AfZO99SLUostJ2ZS8tN6D?si=y4LnJsJPQvuACPPDreLcPw

My M100/1500/800/500x2 system in my 4200 cu. ft. basement room can't replicate the slam of my active LFR/1000-2/1000-8 system in my 1800 cu. ft. living room.

I have my 3 subs set to boost and my Onk cranked all the way up. No doubt it's loud but the dynamics are just not there! It sounds slow, muted, dull. If I didn't have the actives for comparison, I would have said the above-referenced tune is a sub-par recording.

There's a lot of mid-bass and mid-range energy that is just not happening in my basement system.

I forgot to mention the starting drum slam on the track above is shutting down my 1500. I've never been able to do that with any other tracks. My crossover is set to 80Hz.

The 1000s in the active system are holding steady. I could give them another 10 units of volume from my Pioneer pre-amp but I'm worried about the mid-woofers. They are popping out like Marty Feldman's eyes. They're not distorting though.

I may get courageous and give them all this tune has got.

That track is a system killer!!!!

We were discussing krakatoa SPLs in another post and I saw a post by Tanner on audiocircle so I'm prompted to post this reminder: anyone out there with active LFRs, be very, very mindful of that volume control. I've said it before that I listen at -33 from 10 feet away and that is plenty. You can very easily damage your hearing and also end up with sinus cavity issues from the pressure including headaches, balance and vision problems.

Tanner BTW said that he listens to the active Ts at low levels as well.

Ian, I recommend you include a warning in the active LFRs manual.

bman reminded me of Fkoyd Toole's presentation on youtube. Very interesting what he said about home auditions. You learn nothing from them other than whether or not you can adapt to a speaker's problems. What I can say about the actives is that they became a seamless system with my living room. No other speaker has managed that.

I finished watching Toole's video earlier today. He was waxing poetic about Harman speakers and showing off the curves of one. The listening window and sound power were at least 3dB apart and the listening window was flat. These apparently were state of the art and as good as it can possibly get. They looked worse than the M5 actually. That M5 is probably as good as any passive speaker can possibly get. Enter the active LFRs with aligned, declining curves and that should make everyone out there take note and question what the hell they've done for the audio world lately.

He also totally trashed Martin Logan. Their curves looked like the Rockies.

Below is a link to the video. Floyd does an excellent job of getting to the core of the science in 75 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&t=2s

And starting at 37:30 he makes a good point about the onboard AVR room correction software that makes you think twice about what it is actually doing to "help".

Let me point this out. I'll repeat it again and again until folks get it. "Room correction", in my main room, brought out the best v2 could do. This included all my v2 which included the 600, M80, 150 and QS8. Without it, the v2 were blah but better in almost every respect than the Boses, Polks or Klipschs I tried in there.

Fast forward to v4. The "room correction" improvement is not as great, but it's there. No question for anyone who has heard it. This is the case with M100, M5, M50 and M3. I could live without it for the v4 with a bit of bass EQ but why would I when it sounds better?

I will also say all speakers I have heard in my living room could not play nice with it...until the active LFRs! This is what I absolutely did not expect. I wasn't even going to try them in the living room. There is absolutely zero correction required. ZERO...in my acoustically damned living room!!!

I now expect that when I place the active LFRs in the main room, they will not need "room correction". We shall see.

So what is there for folks to get? v4 is not v2. I have heard so many times from so many listeners that v4 is the same as v2 but just more bass or better treble. That is simply not true. The whole FOCing thing is different. They are better in every conceivable way.

The active LFRs are better yet because look at the listening window and sound power curves. Just look at them. Go compare them to every other Axiom. Go compare them to any other speaker if you can find the curves for other speakers.

Axiom 15 years ago is not the same Axiom as today. There have been many learnings on many fronts. The learning is not done.

So any Axiom customers out there who have old gear and are looking at today's speakers thinking "That looks like what I have", I agree but...it does not sound like what you have.

P.S. "FOCing thing" is Family of Curving thing.

I'm not sure that addresses what Dr. Toole was saying in regards to the effectiveness, or lack thereof, with the room correction software but kudos for taking the time to write that rant.
It must have taken you awhile.

LOL

It just sort of all spilled out.

Let me paraphrase what Dr. Toole said: "Apply "room correction" to a speaker with excellent directivity, and you screw it up".

Is v2 a speaker with excellent directivity? Hell no! Is v4? Hell no but it is much better! Is the active LFR1100? Oh yeah baby. That is the real deal. And you are paying for it.

All that just kinda spilled out too.

Another way of thinking about "room correction..."

If one had someone playing acoustic guitar and singing in one's main listening room, would there be an attempt made to "correct" the performance with eq?

The more accurate the overall performance of the speaker, the less likely one is to experience improvement through room correction.

As Connor Macmanus said to his brother Murphy, "Mmmmmmm. That is nicely put. Thank you very much."

I need to point out, again, that even though the v4 M3, M50, M5 and M100 aren't as excellent as the active LFR1100s (see above), there are no flaws. Ditto for v4 subs, QS10 and VP160. I cannot say that about the v2. The v4 are examples of as good as you can get with the chosen technology and architecture. The quality, in all aesthetic, functional and performance respects is exemplary (with the exception of the fabric grills but I like them naked anyway). We shall see if I perceive any flaws with the M2s I'm receiving on Monday.

I was thinking today about the parallels between transmitting antennas and speakers. They both sort of do the same thing: radiate. Antenna polar response is measured in an EMC chamber; a speaker in an acoustically anechoic chamber. The same measurements are taken albeit at different frequencies, amplitudes and test methods and equipment.

With these measurements, we know how antennas and speakers will behave in free space or in a room. Antenna direct response is analogous to the listening window and total radiated power is analogous to sound power. When the direct response and total radiated power are amplitude and phase-matched, directivity will be unity which means the antenna is omni-directional - analogous to the listening window and sound power being amplitude and phase-matched. Sometimes you want an omni-directional antenna or speaker and sometimes not depending on the application. For a consumer speaker in a room, omni is what we want.

All true but one must also think about the reverse.
If v4 is so much better than v2 and you apply room correction, are you undoing what the v4 improved on?

Or for any quality speaker brand. Ultimately with every room being different, room correction may do something 'worse' (subjectively speaking but measurably accurate).

Chess, the answer to your question is it depends on how good the room correction system is.

An analogy is a mechanic. You take a perfectly good car in and ask for it to be fixed and instead they pooch it. A good mechanic will inspect it and tell you it's perfect and get it the hell out of his shop because it's taking up valuable space.

Now here's something very interesting. When I apply XT32 to my Bose 601s, Audyssey does absolutely nothing that is audible. But for my passive Axioms, it does a lot. That's not because the 601s are better. It is because the 601s have no peaks to attenuate within my room. There are no highs, no lows and a big valley in between. Therefore, the room interaction has been minimized within certain bands. This is absolute brilliance on Bose's part. I'll say it again. Brilliance. Why? Because any doughhead can drop the 601s anywhere in the room and they will not sound objectionable due to no bass bloat or shrieking highs. That's why they sold bazillions.

No one talks about this because no one knows about it. I only figured it out because my 601s made the tour to many different homes. And they always sound the same.

The walnut 160, M5, M2 on-wall and M2 bookshelf arrived. The on-wall is bordeaux and the bookshelf is espresso. They are gorgeous! This is my first experience with on-wall bi-polars and they are truly exquisite.

I find the stains really mute the natural grain of the walnut. The bordeaux is a bigger offender than the espresso. I suppose it depends on the lighting also and if one prefers natural walnut.

I opened the bookshelf M2 and found lots of stuffing, a real cross-over and...wait for it...cast basket on the mid-woofer! I wonder when that happened.

OMG! Phil! Knowing what I know about you, you will love the M2s. I'd love to hear your thoughts of M2/500 against the Harbeths. I am floored and so is one of my friends who is listening right now.

Like

Another surprise. No "room correction" needed in my acoustically challenged main room with these M2s. The only other speaker I can claim that doesn't need it either is the Bose 601. But the M2s actually image and are high fidelity. Wow! Does anyone actually need M5s? We shall find out.

They totally disappear no matter where I place them up front in my main room.

I need to add some hyperbole for Mike.

LOL, no just keeping posting every 2-3 minutes and all will be fine!

I am in the middle of planning a seminar for audio hyperbole. I will add you to the guest list.

My friend who just bought M5s is over. She's been switching between the M2s and the M5s with all three of my subs going and crossed over at 80Hz and location-specific phase settings. With no Audyssey, the M2s sound better. With Audyssey, she describes the M5s as slightly warmer but admits this difference is very minor. She is wondering why she bought M5s which are larger and more expensive. I reminded her she does not have my subbage. She has vowed to fix that.

The M2s are no different than the M5s when it comes to dispersion and sound projection. I can place them 6 feet apart or 12 feet apart and I get a wall of 3D sound from 12 feet away. In fact, the M2s are far less picky about placement. Their backs are currently 42" away from the front wall. With Jimmy Sax, we can see the highs being sprayed across the space between their backs and towards the front wall and the sides. All images are behind them. The effect is just unbelievable.

No, none of this is scientific. Just hyperbole from a couple of listeners.

Sorry Mike for not posting as frequently as you'd like.

A few board members have told me over the years the M2s are ok for surround duty but not for fronts. Maybe they were talking about v3 or earlier. I don't hear any faults when using them as fronts. In fact, quite the opposite.

These M2s elevate my respect for Axiom's speaker design capabilities even more.

Click to see bigger image.

The M2 bookshelves are absolute keepers. They have no problem performing in my 4200 cu.ft. room. I'm 12 feet away and can push them to 103 dBC peaks without a problem (3 subs included). They can likely go louder but I'm feeding them with the 1500 so I'm holding back for fear of vaporization. I am in awe of the clarity, soundstage and imaging.

Sounds like the midwoofer is the secret to the M5's awesomeness. What's the wood/stain choice on the M2 bookshelves? Looks awesome.

Bman, walnut espresso. I think I ordered low gloss. It's very nice particularly in bright daylight. My Buck Vantage with its walnut FRN handle will look smashing on it.

I can't say I like the bordeaux on the on-walls but I suppose it's personal preference.

Very nice. I'm not a fan of red stain either.

Apparently all 6.5", 5.25" and tweeter baskets were changed to cast for v3. The mid-woofer is a wee beastie. It looks like it's capable of a good half inch peak-to-peak excursion which is partially responsible for the stunning performance of the M2.

Earlier today I moved all speakers out of my 4,200 cu.ft. main room and listened to just the M2s and M5 bookshelves with my 3 subs crossed over at 80Hz. Try as I might, I could not hear a difference between the M2s and M5s. The only time I could hear a difference was with Audyssey off - the M2s don't need Audyssey. The M5s benefit a bit. (The M100s benefit a lot). At times I thought the M2s image better but really, I cannot be sure. I do know the M2s are less fussy with placement. I pushed both from very quiet to very loud (103 dBC at 12 feet away).

If you're not going to use a sub in a space larger than 800 cu.ft., M5 is the way to go. With a sub or small room, save your money and space and buy M2.

As for on-walls, they are nothing more than wife-pleasers. If you want an emotionally rewarding performance, floor-standers or bookshelves are the way to go.

My buddies and I are simply stunned with the M2. Last night, one of my buddies who is very familiar with all my speakers, thought the M100s were on. It was the M5s. He didn't believe it until he checked for himself.

How would you rate them towards M3.

If you like low resolution sound, the M3 or M50 is the way to go. Otherwise, the M2 is the clear winner.

The M3 and M50 present fuzzier images relative to all other Axioms because they're missing the mid-woofer. Some may prefer this kind of sound.

BTW, I made a typo in the last paragraph of the post just before yours. It was the M2 that was on when my buddy was listening; not the M5.

With all due respect to Mojo, the m3 and m50 do not deliver a "low resolution" sound. Their respective response curves resemble the response curves of the LS3/5A speakers from Rogers and other British companies, but with a deeper bass.

This sound is slightly warmer from neutral, and is designed to allow one to listen into the performance. A fairly accurate description (and this is based on blind listening tests to M2's, M3's, M50's and M100's) is the 5.25 inch driver will seem "bright" to some listeners, and neutral to others. The M3/M50 will seem warm to some listeners and neutral to others.

The overall response curves are within 2 dB of each other, and under blind conditions, difficult to tell a difference for most people.

Hope this helps.

Hmmm...no doubt for me or anyone else from my circles who has listened to the M3 and M50 vs. other Axioms that the M3 and M50 are warmer. Of course they also reach lower than the M2s.

However, the images from the M3 and M50 are also "fuzzier". They are simply not as well-defined. Another way of putting this is lower spatial resolution. So perhaps I should be using the term "spatial resolution" rather than just "resolution".

Craig's comment "...designed to allow one to listen into the performance" is an interesting one. I've made the comment before that when listening to the M3 or M50, I listen to the music and not the equipment. When I listen to any other Axiom, I tend to analyze where all the instruments and voices are located. Not so with the M3 or M50. This may of course be just my problem although I am also noticing the same behavior now from a few of my friends.

I just want to suggest here where you would choose an M3 or M50 vs. other Axioms.

If you want low spatial resolution, you would choose an M3 or an M50; an M50 if you don't want to use a sub and an M3 with a sub.

A good question is "When might you want low spatial resolution?" I've tried to answer that question. I've listened to vinyl on Spotify, tape and bad recordings on the various speakers. I've also listened in the background while cooking, reading etc. I've found that low spatial resolution is actually more satisfying to me for background listening and very bad recordings.

I don't know if what applies to me applies in general to other listeners. If it does apply generally, it may be something Axiom wants to consider as a feature in the form of a soft switch in the LFRs and a hard switch in the passives.

In addition to the above suggestion regarding M3s and M50s, I have a few more thoughts about speaker selection now that I've had a chance to listen to almost the entire Axiom line. These recommendations are to hit up to 104dBC "audibly cleanly" at MLP with minimal spend. None of this is scientific; it's my observations/notes:

A. Passives

1. For rooms less than 800 cu. ft., the M2s can be used without a sub.

2. For MLP <= 10 feet: M5 or M60 without a sub; M2 with a sub

3. For 10 feet < MLP <= 12 feet: M5 or M60HP without a sub; M2 with a sub

4. For 12 feet < MLP <= 15 feet: M80HP without a sub; M80 with a sub

5. For 15 feet < MLP <= 18 feet: M100 without a sub; M80HP with a sub

B. Active LFR1100

Use in any size room, when you want the highest possible spatial resolution. Use at MLPs greater than 18 feet.

Waaaaahoooooo!!! I think my M2s are gonna ignite with this workout at +6! The 1500 is gonna let out its smoke.

https://youtu.be/Srd6TwU6UoI

Interesting thoughts I've never considered my M3s as lower resolution or muddy. Compared to my M22 {a little more M2 compared to most other Axioms with double 5.5s} I guess that could be, in a total audiophile sense more accurate{sweeter highs}. Without a bass bump.

I was under the impression that the 6.5 in the M5 would add more dynamics or clarity over M22, with greater capability than a 5.5 inch driver.

Brendo, when I listen to the M3 or M50, I do not see images that are as well-defined in space as other v4. This is what I mean by lower "spatial resolution". M3 and M50 are like 480p, all other passives are like 1080p and active LFRs are like 4K. At least this is my analogy. And as I've stated, lower resolution has its place as I have discovered. At least with my ears-brain.

Certainly the M3 goes lower than the M2. In larger rooms, you need a sub with the M2 without a doubt. Some may argue that you also need it in the 10x10x8 foot room I referenced above but I don't find that with the M2. I can still enjoy music in a small room like that with M2 and no sub.

But even with the M3, when you start pushing it, a sub is a must. I can hear it distorting at around 95dBC peaks at 10 feet away.

The lack of a bass bump in the M2 is indeed very important. I can't put the M3 in my 1800 cu. ft. living room without cutting the bass by 16dB never mind an 800 cu. ft. room. Not so with the M2.

The woofer in the M5 reaches lower and is much more linear than the M3. The M5 can go to 103dBC peaks without distorting and no sub which is 8dBC better than the M3. You can use it without a sub in a 4,200 cu. ft. room like mine and still be very satisfied with the bass. But not the M3. You can push the M5 to 107dBC with a sub as measured at a 13 foot MLP without any distortion. No way you can do that with an M3 or M2.

The M2 with a sub is just as dynamic as an M5 within the above limit. If you have a sub, I'd recommend the M2 over the M5 because it is smaller, less expensive and may provide for easier room integration.

I have not had the good fortune of trying an M22v4 so I cannot compare and answer any questions about that. I would however expect that the M22v4 can go louder than the M2 because it has dual mids. Does it sound better than the M2 though? I don't know.

I've now placed the M2s in the livingroom as shown in the photo. They sound so good! No sub and bass integration is much better than M3, M5, M50 and M100 in this room. No sub needed to enjoy music in this 1800 cu. ft. space that is open to the rest of the house. In almost every way they are completely out-classed by the actives. A big surprise though, is that they cast a much wider soundstage and in this regard, they outperform the actives at least in this room! When I had the M2s in my 4200 cu. ft. room, they were equally as impressive but of course with subs on.

They are 10 feet apart, 2.5 feet from the front wall and MLP is 10 feet away. I am powering them with my 50W/channel Pioneer A9 (the dual mono one) and there is no need for any more power than that.

I read a couple of reviews on the M2 product page from a lady. She said no sub required and she's right. Of course if you want to feel the 15Hz sub-harmonic in Hotel California like Craig does, you'll have to pair them up with a 600 or 800.

My M5 friend is over and she's been listening to the M2s in my living room. She is again wondering why she bought M5s particularly given the bass response and wide presentation of the M2s in my room. It will be very interesting to see how the M2s respond in her room relative to the M5s. They are easy enough to carry.

I think you guys are biased by your new found amazement for the M2's (reverse confirmation bias)? Double-blind testing is needed.

I'd love to do a double-blind, controlled test of the M2s with sub against the M5s with and without a sub.

In my living room, the M2s win with no sub because the M5s boom like crazy at normal listening volumes. At lower volumes, the M5s win. Those volumes though are too low to elicit an emotional response.

A real good question is "Would you be happy with the M2s in the living room over the active LFRs?" Now that I hear both in my living room, this is a very tough question believe it or not. In almost every respect the actives are orders of magnitude better. But that width I get with the M2s is very addictive. Also, even though the M2s are more spatially resolving than the M3 or M50 as I described in a previous post, they are like an M3 when compared to the active LFRs. So in this regard, when I just want to relax and not have to analyze, the M2s are better.

I suppose what I am trying to convey in all of this is that the Axiom v4 is all really damned good and all in their own damning way. It's best to just chill and listen but that's really hard when I have them all here and can analyze until I'm paralyzed.

I actually really enjoy having discovered all this.

Another buddy of mine just left after listening to the M2s in the living room. This is the same one who thought it was my M100s that were going when it was the M2s in my 4,200 cu. ft. space. He said it was just sick how the M2s were projecting right out to my side-walls. He asked me to turn off the sub so he can hear just the M2s. But the sub wasn't on; no cable going to it and not plugged in. This of course he had to check for himself. He was amazed how song after song, he could not locate the M2s because they acoustically disappear. And why shouldn't they? With their curves and diminutive size, they are like a point source.

He saw the espresso finish in daylight and fell in love with it. He swore he'd never put speakers in his living room but these M2s have now changed his mind.

I never quite clued into the fact that Axioms mids are mid-woofers until I got these M2s.

I have another interesting observation. I've been using the M100s in my main room since I got them. With the M2 acquisition, I took all fronts out of my main room except for the M2s and M5s. I've noticed with either of those, my QS10s are casting images towards the front that were not there with the M100s. This is a very, very cool effect for both music and movies. I perceive PLII and other surround formats as more natural. Almost like there is more space for each speaker to do its job. I surmise the large soundscape from the M100s is drowning out some of the surround radiation even in this large 4,200 cu. ft. space.

It doesn't really matter how I position these M2s, they sound great no matter what while pulling a disappearing act. The tweeters are currently 6" below my ears and I've tried them at various heights with equally great results.

Given my recent experience with M2s in my living room, I am revising my speaker recommendations. These recommendations are to hit up to 104dBC "audibly cleanly" at MLP with minimal spend. None of this is scientific; it's my observations/notes:

A. Passive bi-polars

1. For rooms less than 1800 cu. ft., M2s without a sub.

2. For MLP <= 10 feet: M5 or M60 without a sub; M2 with a sub in rooms larger than 1800 cu. ft.

3. For 10 feet < MLP <= 12 feet: M5 or M60HP without a sub; M2 with a sub in rooms larger than 1800 cu. ft.

4. For 12 feet < MLP <= 15 feet: M80HP without a sub; M80 with a sub

5. For 15 feet < MLP <= 18 feet: M100 without a sub; M80HP with a sub

B. Active LFR1100

Use when you have the following needs:

1. The highest possible spatial resolution in any size room
2. Unrivaled bass and mid-bass reproduction
3. Unrivaled macro and micro-dynamics from quiet to riot listening levels
4. Unrivaled soundstage depth
5. MLP greater than 21 feet.

Here is how much better the active LFR1100 is relative to M3, M50, M2, M5, M100v4 within their operating limits. All impressions are within my 1800 cu. ft. living room at a 10 foot MLP, driven with ADAs. These impressions may change once I get the actives into my much larger basement.

Spatial resolution (imaging) - 20 times better than M3, M50. 4 times better than M2, M5, M100.

Soundstage depth: 2 times better than all the others

Soundstage width: 4 times better than M3, M50. On par with M2, M5. 2 times better than M100.

Bass reproduction: Infinitely better than all others. It has to be heard to be believed.

Mid-range reproduction: Infinitely better than all others for lower registers. Infinitely better than M3 and M50 across the entire range. About the same as M2, M5 and M100 for middle and upper registers.

Treble reproduction: 4 times better than M3, M50. Better than M2 and marginally better than M5 and M100 but it's difficult to say by how much.

Ease of playing well with room modes: Infinitely easier than M3, M50, M5 and M100. On par with M2.

Ability to disappear: About the same as M3, M50, M100 and M5. Not nearly as good as the M2.

Performance under "quiet listening" conditions: infinitely better than all others.

Ability to image off-MLP: significantly worse than all others*.

I really don't know how to judge micro and macrodynamics quantitatively so I won't even bother. What I can say is the actives feel like they are starting and stopping notes faster making for a more emotionally rewarding experience.

The above quantities are not weighted. You may want to place more weight on some attributes compared to others.

*Craig has talked about the ability to use the actives without a center when listening off-axis. A reviewer who listened to the passive 1100s made a similar comment. I haven't found that. My imaging, including the center image, collapses when I move out of the MLP. This may change when I get them into the basement and can place them further away from me and away from the front wall. This is actually a feature that doesn't matter to me.

Also remember the actives can reach extremely dangerous SPLs. There is dynamic limiting taking place in the passives that really is not evident until the actives are heard.

Here I am at my friend's with her walnut natural satin M5s which she is so happy with in her space. She wanted FMSs but I discouraged her so she can save up and buy a nice sub someday or a new receiver. Instead, $5 at IKEA gets you the one foot high, very stable stools you see pictured. We stuck the Axiom gel pads on the M5s and felt furniture pads on the stool legs. Without both of those, the M5s resonated into the hardwood floor. They are perfect now.

Now you might say "Mojo, that's just too damned low" but I now know better and can tell you the M5s disappear much better and the images they cast are even more surreal when the mids and tweets are low.

I can sit off MLP and still enjoy good imaging. They sound so good. It's been quite an adventure for her starting off with my Bose 601s thinking they're so amazing, realizing how much she was missing when she moved to the M3v4 and finally finding Nirvana with the M5.

Hello Mojo

What kind of music are you using to compare the sound quality of these speakers?

What source?

Preamp/phonostage?

Best regards

Phil, you will laugh.

At my friend's, my 15 year-old Denon 2105 and Spotify Premium coming from her TCL TV via optical.

In my living room, Spotify Premium over Chromecast Audio, through a Pioneer A9 receiver (the good, dual mono one). The active LFRs via a 1000-8 and 1000-2 with the Pioneer's pre-outs.

In the basement, Spotify Premium over Firestick 4K, through an Onk, then 1500-3.

As for music, it's all over the map. Jazz, rock, blues, acoustic, orchestral, classical,...

Like

M2 mid-woofer in action. I love the SNAP! from it and brashness with sax and brass. No bottoming out and no port noise.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dbcSBrC2N433hb0nkj3vYxa3Bf-vxx6Z/view?usp=drivesdk

I've had the M2s going in the living room all day for main and background listening. They continue to impress. They are an absolutely perfect balance between the low spatial resolution of the M3 and M50 and the high spatial resolution of the active LFRs. Ian is a genius!

These are the first speakers that, with the right material, are giving me a 180 degree sound field in my living room.

Craig, these would be a fine addition to your collection.

Hello Mojo

I had a condo, years ago, when I first got my M3Tis. I hooked them up to my Antique Sound Labs MG Si 15DT, an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb Marantz based CD player with a tube output stage and upgraded Burr Brown op amp, donkey dick power cord and Ediswan 12au7 tube, a little Velodyne sub, Maple Shade Double Golden Helix speaker wire, and Maple Audio Ambiance interconnects.

OK, now in that particular room, everything sounded really good. But the above system, well it produced the holy WALL OF SOUND. Detail? Yes. Sound stage? Oh my yes. Midrange, a bit pronounced, but beautiful.

Now, my M22 Tis did not work in that system. But the M3Tis, earned my affection and respect, even compared to some very expensive and accomplished speakers.

Although the M22Tis did not work in that system, (in that room) My M22V2s, in my current abode, sounded great when driven by that same Antique Sound Labs amp, which by now is about 20 years old. (recapped with the sausage sized V-Cap oil teflon cap, and running Gold Lion KT88s and a pair of Telefunken 12ax7s which are worth more than the amp.

I find the M22s very detailed, and, on occasion, they produce more bass than I expect. If you check the frequency response curves at Soundstage Network measurements, you will see that the M22 has an enviably flat response line (not so much a curve) from its usable bass to its highest frequency.

So, what is the conclusion? The quality of sound produced by speakers is very dependent on the room. And, as to preferences, well, that's why the Eternal One made both chocolate and vanilla.

Mojo - You are trying very hard to bring information to the board based on your listening experiences. This is a good thing.

So - based on this - please take this note as nothing more than an attempt to assist.

You have preferences in speakers, and this is great. When you declare something is "better," this is no longer an opinion. It is a declarative. When you say the bass from an M2 is "better" than is the bass from an M5, you are merely expressing your opinion, but you make it seem like it's a fact.

It would be much more helpful if you would make statements along the line of "I preferred the M2 in this room."

There is nothing wrong with that.

The M2 is flat to about 70 Hz and the M5 to about 50 Hz. By definition, the M5 has "better bass." But you like the M2 over the M5.

When one adds into this that you claim the bass from the LFR-1100's is "better" than the bass from the Axiom subs, the response curve on the speakers you think are "worse" roll off higher in frequency than do the speakers you consider "better."

It's a preference.

We have done 100's of blind tests at our place, and Ian has done 1000's. It's always an education when you do these. You learn as much about the listener as you do the product in question.

We have had people who don't like the sound of bass below 60 to 80 Hz. In fact, this is not that unusual.

My personal preference is a flat response curve to 10 Hz. I have found this in blind tests. That doesn't mean what I prefer will match up to what others prefer. Many have preferred the sound with no subwoofer in the system.

An article on an on line "Webzine" recently had a gent saying he would NEVER use a subwoofer, as he doesn't like boomy bass.

A properly dialed in subwoofer will not be boomy. Nor will a 6.5 inch driver sound "faster" at, say, 40 Hz than will a 12 inch driver.

You are learning a lot during your journey. So please allow a finish to this - take it from someone who has done thousands of blind tests in his 40 years in this hobby - your preferences are great. They may even change.

Take the time to reflect on your listening sessions, and think about what makes you prefer one sonic presentation to another. Try to do it without knowing what speakers you are listening to, if you can. Blind or double blind will work.

We will tackle your front end another time.

Yup Mr. Mojo.

Love ya!

Phil and Craig, you will note I prefaced my observations with qualifications along the lines of "In my 1700 cu.ft. living room..." and "In my 4,200 cu. ft. home theater...". I explained how the bass from the M5s did not integrate well with my living room but the bass from the M2s did. Conversely, I explained how the M5s sound better in my home theater without a sub but the M2s do not.

It is FACT that the M2s sound better than the M5s in my living room. It is FACT that the M5s sound better in my home theater than the M2s. Throw in my subs in the home theater and it is FACT the M2s sound better than the M5s without Audyssey. Bring in Audyssey and it's FACT that it's anyone's guess whether it's the M5s or M2s playing. It is also FACT the active LFR1100s in my living room present better bass than all the subs and M100s or M5s or M2s or M3s or M50s driven from ADAs in my home theater.

I've stated all this before. I am telling you all these are the facts in my two spaces with my ears-brain and the rooms, positions and equipment I have repeatedly documented. I can also tell you two ladies and three guys made the same observations.

I post all this with the hope that readers will find it easier to select speakers for their rooms and place them as best as possible to maximize enjoyment.

I think it's cool your having so much fun with your various speakers.
It's surprising how different some peoples tastes in sound can be.
I like lower end big fan of subs. Some older people I know don't enjoy low end at all.

I like lows too. It's just that M100s, M5s and M3s are 16dB too hot in my smallish living room. This isn't a surprise given the bump in their frequency response curves. The M2 low frequency response falls off a cliff below 70Hz which is absolutely great because my room modes boost the low end enough to make it wonderful to listen to. The M50 is much better and I only have to knock that back by 6dB. The actives are perfection!

I've discovered a ton playing with these Axioms. I am trying to pass my observations on so others can benefit. I can understand though how much of what I say may be difficult for others to accept. Listeners at my place find it difficult to accept what they hear until they check for themselves.

Phil, you should know that donkey dick you have can make even M3ti and M22ti sound great. The M3v4 is wonderful and so is the M2. Please do yourself a solid and upgrade.

I'm not used to seeing "bass response" and "M2's" in the same sentence... do you have a subwoofer in the mix as well ?

I have always thought of M2's as astoundingly good speakers from 70 Hz up, but below that they don't really bother. Maybe things have changed over the years ?

I should probably go back and see if it's still true (maybe with more wattage) but other than very high volumes a pair of M2's and a big SVS sub gave the best home theater sound I have ever experienced.

John, the M2s in my 4200 cu.ft. room are useless without my subs. The 1900 cu. ft. living room is a completely different story. I enjoy them in there without a sub fed off my Pioneer A9 for music only. Of course the experience is better with a sub because as you say, the response drops like a cliff below 70Hz. That drop however works very well in smaller rooms. When I'm grazing on the main floor, I turn them way up and find I have to cut the bass by 6dB.

Do you have M2v4?

Small rooms... interesting. Don't think I ever tried them in small rooms... might have to try the bathrooms.

I have M2ti's.

M2ti is not the same as M2v4. I sound like a broken record.

Edit: I missed it in your signature.

I've managed to make the actives acoustically disappear in my room. As you can see in the photo, I had to toe them in very extremely to make that happen. Both DSPs are at a NEAR2 setting. This gives me pin-point imaging across the soundstage. Mono pink noise is dead centre. As you might be able to see, they are only inches away from the back wall. Unfortunately this results in almost no soundstage depth. But the bass continues to be sublime and this is the only Axiom ported speaker I've heard with this capability.

I spent two weeks experimenting with them up to 3 feet into the room. I got depth across their width but they refused to acoustically disappear like the M2 and M5. There are technical reasons for this which have to do with the size of the speakers vs. the size of my room. More drivers and active DSPs can certainly fix this but the algorithm to integrate all those drivers with boundary feedback into the DSPs is likely very elusive.

As I increase the gain to the rear drivers, the images get wider. Some material sounds better with this more diffuse imaging but as the rear gain is increased, the speakers start to become acoustically visible. So far I prefer tight, well-defined images with no speakers "showing".

Performance across the entire frequency range is exemplary at all listening volumes. The entire bass range is the absolute best I've ever heard but as I've posted elsewhere, how can I possibly know it's the best it can be with the equipment I have?

All the above is for music. As for movies, feel free to place them anywhere. These are the first Axioms where I can claim they make a big difference for movies particularly with dual subs fed off the DSPs. The bass is more dimensional. Everything is more visceral.

Bottom line is I have everything except soundstage depth and I don't know if my bass is the best it can be.

P.S. I took two of Trevor's panels off the front. The two that remain help with imaging and ringing.

What are "Trevor's panels"?

Trevor is From_the_Deep a.k.a. Serenity_Then, a.k.a. Serenity_Now a.k.a. AAAA.

The two brown panels you see on my wall were his. I also have one more brown panel and two smaller black ones. The other brown one adorns my living room. The smaller black ones are standing by. He built them. A little bit of Trevor is here with me, always. All my friends and family know of him. A small tear is seeping from the corner of my eye as I gently touch one of his black panels.

Trevor is the owner of Wavefront Acoustics. When I had an 800 ft^3 room set up with my Dreamcatchers, it was he who suggested I set up my MLP on the room diagonal. It was he who changed my life in that room. The dream ended so suddenly when a Dreamcatcher woofer coil evaporated as it tried to pound out a Bobby Bland bluesy bass burp.

Are they like Stillpoint Apertures?

No. Trevor built them before he was Dr. Wavefront. They are a simple recipe of insulation bordered by a pine frame and lovingly wrapped with burlap-like cloth.

In other news, the three-dimensional, growling, aetherial and articulate bass in my main room is something to behold. I've come to realize the Yammie and Sony subs just can't complement the sublime sound of my M2OW in the living room. I've been spying that B-stock aged walnut espresso 500. Two of those would surely remedy my ills. Alas, there is only one.

AKA out of Business.

Didn't take long to figure out normal people aren't interested and audiophiles are far too fickle (and cheap!) Lol.

The only meaningful work we did was for commercial clients. We averaged 15$ an hour once we did the accounting. Incredible rooms though. A promotion in my full time gig pretty much ended my desire for that side hustle. There is zero money in AV installs at the residential level unless you buy bulk lots for installs and mark up to retail.

The internet keeps everyone honest with pricing these days and everyone's a "pro" who sells sound bars. Not worth the headache. I just do work for friends now and pretty much ceased forum activity. Just read now.

I am sorry to hear that you couldn't make a living doing what you love. Perhaps one day you'll be in a position to do it for fun.

As for the actives, I am finding out I cannot have it all. I cannot have well-defined images with black space between them if I want a broad and immersive sound-stage. I cannot have deep, growling, articulate, 3D bass with a broad soundstage either.

As I tune from NEAR2 to FAR2, the images get bigger, more dispersive, images to the left and right of center shift towards their respective speaker while the center image gets broader and the sound-stage extends beyond the speaker boundaries. Bass is also affected as I described above. This actually may be the way some listeners like it. It's the difference between a concert hall and an intimate club I suppose. Movies may also be better with this spatial broadening.

The effect on the bass isn't something I like though. BTW, I have the actives set to 40Hz via the DSP. The dual 500s are working below that cross-over. The 800 is set to 60Hz via its rear control and the Onk is set for "double bass". The 160 and QS10s are both set to 40Hz. This ultimately results in very tactile and high resolution bass at all listening levels.

It's been a very long day but I can finally report I now have it all with the actives.

I have width, I have depth, I have imaging, I have 2pi envelopment with the right material, I have infra-sub-mid-upper bass up the wazoo with impeccable growling, articulation and spatial resolution and I have more than 30dB of dynamic headroom.

Most importantly, in 2-channel with my two 500s fed off the DSPs and the 800 from the .1, there is absolutely no difference with Audyssey XT32 engaged. I never thought I'd see that day in this cursed, terribly assymetric room.

The active 1100s are the real deal. But you may have to work hard like I did to achieve Nirvana.

They ended up 13 feet apart and 19" from the front wall. MLP is 14'. Toe-in is a little more than 45 degrees.

Here are a few tunes that result in 2pi envelopment:

https://open.spotify.com/track/3rX1JTpQI4mGGTGwgXnigd?si=luhr2VB4RxC6NDUI-ZegQg

https://open.spotify.com/track/3c2JI45ZzER8wM7gKxtLkH?si=4dHjbu3tRCGirN3q1_eBwQ

https://open.spotify.com/track/1pYGVhpgjTlvzFvajPKNjh?si=972U6TCtRES4ZyDiVtRdJw

https://open.spotify.com/track/56aZjhRKgkBjPzwgHu826m?si=_aK1hagvQ8eYlAjMXE25Yw



P.S. To achieve bass Nirvana in my room, I've employed the following EQ settings. An interesting observation is that at reference levels, the settings below heavily tax the 160 and LFR woofers. Hence, I've crossed them at 40Hz and that works just great. It's a real credit to Axiom that they don't ignite or rip themselves to shreds. The 500s and 800 handle the on-slaught without a sweat.

Front: +6dB @ 63Hz, -3dB @ 160Hz
Center and surround:+6dB @ 63Hz
Sub: +6dB @ 25, 40 & 63Hz

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That's great news, Mojo! While I've been happy with my normal LFR1100s, I didn't do nearly enough experimentation with them. I played with distance from the front wall a bit, as well as a couple of crossover settings, but I wonder how much more I could have gotten out of them if I'd been as determined as you.

I'll have to spend a bit more time seeing what I can achieve with the Actives. I did order them, so when I get them and am trying to set them up, I'll have to refer to your posts for ideas.

Thanks, Charles. For discerning listeners, every little change makes an audible difference.

Since finding the active LFR sweet spot, I've made a couple of tweaks. I've pushed the TV and the 160 back to reduce diffraction. That made the soundstage deeper and tightened imaging around the center. Then I added two more of Trevor's panels to the front wall. That made imaging at the outer boundaries of the soundstage more aetherial and broadened those boundaries.

Still no need for Audyssey in two channel with three subs. I've become a real fan of these actives. I apologize to Ian and Andrew for cursing them as I endlessly tweaked for almost 4 weeks. Everything from hereonin is just my curiosity and nothing more.

I still very much enjoy the M2 system though. For those who just don't have the means, get the M2s, position them right and know that they are just as sublime as the actives.

You need a much bigger screen for that wall and all those speakers.

Yep... a pair of M2's and a good sub is still pretty much the best audio bang-for-the-buck I have seen/heard.

I need the money for active LFR 1500s and their 14 channel amplifier.

14 channel amplifiers... you'll need two

OK, I want them too!

Each LFR1500 will have 7 driver arrays hence the need for 14 channels of amplification. The LFR1900 will require 18 channels.

One of my buddies was over last night to listen to the M2OW and actives. He's also familiar with the M3 and M50 sound. His mind was shattered to discover what these diminutive speakers are capable of. In his words, the M2s are not as detailed as the actives but more detailed than M3s or M50s. This quality makes them very enjoyable with no listening fatigue.

My terribly dimensioned living room with what I thought was an acoustically horrible bow window has been consecrated with the M2s and is now hallowed ground.

I wonder if they have any of the qualities of a baffless speaker

Yes. They both make sound.

Oh, thanks

Always willing to educate.

I watched Late Phases tonight...without a center. I found I enjoyed it more without the 160 than with. This is very surprising. Even more surprising was being able to sit 20 degrees off-axis on one side and 30 degrees on the other and still enjoy a diffuse (relative to the 160) yet convincing center image. I have no idea why this is the case particularly when I've tried muting the center a number of times in the past and found I hated it.

I'm going to experiment with this some more. BTW, I watched this movie at -35 from 15 feet away and missed absolutely nothing. I had a couple of pocket knives come off the wall in the living room from the bass. I had to turn it down when I muted the center but even so, I noticed quite a bit more bass with the center de-activated.

I've been watching Eagles Farewell Tour I today with my friend. From the MLP, there's no question it's better without my 160. But when I shift off-center, the center image shifts. For example, when I sit 30 degrees to the left, the center image shifts to the mid-point between the left LFR and the 160. This isn't something I like but I can see that one could get used to it. My friend on the other hand, prefers that image shift and says it sounds more natural.

We've also been experimenting with no QS10s and Stereo PCM vs. DTS. Perhaps it's no surprise but DTS is far more dynamic and clear.

What is most surprising is that we both prefer the QS10s off. So DTS but with actives and subs only. I estimate I have a 140 degree sound field with the QS10s off and it sounds more natural.

I'll also point out there's a big difference in the quality and quantity of bass with the twin 500s fed off the twin DSPs as opposed to just routing all the bass through the 800.

I'm not saying the QS10s aren't useful for music but this Eagles concert sounds better without them.

I'm a big fan of stereo over using the surrounds for music ... I've just never heard anything which sounded natural with the surrounds in the mix no matter what surround format I've tried. Perhaps it's because all the music I have listen to was recorded for 2 channels ... hmmmm ....

For movies the surrounds are highly recommended if not a must.

I've found, in my environment, it depends on the track. With the one below for example, I get a very natural 180 degree sound field in Neo or PLII. In stereo, the sound field is closer to 120 degrees with the actives at normal volumes and 140 degrees at louder volumes.

I find PLII and Neo can sound quite natural in my space because the QS10s are mounted 4 feet ahead of my MLP. When they were mounted directly opposite my ears, it was too much of an unnatural wrap-around effect.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3cjfsbCvz9dGaSt1F9jKNl?si=7SqhoTYnSZKSZKpRnfGwZw

This is my last post in this thread until Axiom has made improvements to the active LFRs and then that might trigger more changes.

--- History ---

I started the upgrade to v4 in 2017, 10 years after buying v2. I kicked it off with the 800 replacing my 600, then the 160 replacing my 150. Both were a revelation and I decided to give the M5s a try and they proved to be vastly superior to my M80v2. Two QS10s were next and they totally trumped the QS8v2 in my 4200 cu. ft. space. In the process, I also tried M3, M50, M100 and M2 bookshelves and on-walls. Not sure how the heck that happened...it was all a blur. What I discovered however is all these v4 speakers came from the same secret sauce rendering the same soundstage and imaging. The "only" differences between them were the spatial resolution and clarity (accuracy), frequency extension and dynamic range and SPL.

Ian tried over this period to move me to LFRs and I resisted because I heard the passive LFRs and didn't hear any difference over M100s. Then the actives came out and I saw, from what Axiom published, they were clearly different. So I went with them and two 500s to boot.

--- Living room ---

I've tried all of the above speakers in almost all rooms in my house except for the on-walls. In my 4200 cu.ft. room, they all work very well. In my 1900 cu.ft. living room, the M2OW are the stand-out winner with the M2 bookshelves a close second. All the other passives sound too boomy in every room. The actives sound immaculate throughout the entire spectrum (no sub needed) but they get in the way of themselves and affect the width of the soundstage. The M2OW offer a deep and wide soundstage and are clear without being fatiguing. Anyone considering M3s, think twice. The M2s are one of Axiom's closely-guarded secrets.

--- Main room ---

In the 4200 cu.ft. space, for music only, I could actually be very happy with M2 bookshelves and my subs. Using M5s or M100s makes absolutely no significant difference and that includes movies also. I've also discovered my coveted 160 isn't needed and off-axis listeners actually preferred a bit of a shift in the center image because they say it sounds more natural. At MLP, I like movies and music (even in PLII or Neo) without the 160. I never expected that to be the case but I am glad I kept my mind open and tried it.

Until I got the actives, I didn't think the fronts matter for movies. I've discovered this is where the actives matter the most for me. Their center image is more diffuse and more natural-sounding and the accuracy and dynamics add a new dimension to movies. The dual subs fed off the DSPs instead of the .1 channel make a big difference for both music and movies and complement the 800 very well. The 800 is now relegated to the LFE and handling below 40Hz for the QS10s.

So I've moved from a v2 7.2 system to a v4 4.1 active system. I've gotten rid of my ugly cabinet up front and arranged my equipment on and underneath a 6 foot wide, 2" high, 20" deep rough pine shelf. It sits on industrial-looking, steel legs. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

As a final note, the actives truly are incredible and prove to me that everything Toole et al researched is indeed accurate. In every room I tried the actives in, I had no need for EQ of any kind. I never thought I wouldn't need EQ in my main space. There is absolutely no difference in 2.1 with or without Audyssey XT32. 4.1 is a bit of a different story but it's not like one couldn't live without it.

Hello Tex

Those LFR1100 Actives are pretty spectacular.
I hope you don't wait until Ian and Andrew improve the LFR1100As to keep going with this thread.

I followed your advice and ordered a gaggle of M2OWs. I can't wait to get them into my system.

Best regards
Stay safe and healthy

Mojo, great read as always. That's good news on not feeling the need for the center. It makes me feel better about my choice. I can't imagine I'll ever have the money or the space, but I would still like to experience a matching center behind an acoustically transparent screen. I've only ever had horizontal centers or an M22 between M80s. It would be interesting to hear LCR Actives, and if you're going that extreme, may as well have Actives as surrounds too. Ian, you should set up a room that way just to say it's been done, see just how far you can push the movie audio experience.

Think Craig is doing an quad setup (remember the 70's) with Active LFR in front and Passive LFR in the rear ... not sure if he reported on that setup yet but we may all be going there at some point

Charles, I tried a matching M5 center when I had the M5s set up in my main space. I didn't like it. Maybe if it was behind a screen it would have been better.

Philip, as I reported in other posts, I had to cut the bass on my M2OW. I use dual subs to take over at 80Hz. This is most definitely a room interaction. You may have to do the same thing. The M2 bookshelves, which I had 2.5 feet out into the living room, needed no such adjustment and didn't need subs. They did get in the way though. Now the living room looks real clean. A real pleasure to sit in that room and work or space out. It took me 6 long years to make it mine!

Do you have an AVR capable of Dolby Surround processing?

My Onkyo tx-nr818 can't do that. What would that give me? Is it like the quadraphonic on my uncle's Realistic receiver ?

Lol. Knew you’d be around quick. The Dolby Surround Upmixer is really impressive compared to other stereo spatializers of the past.

I really think your next step is a new AVR with Dirac on board. Next level Sir.

Cant wait for the content to pour our way. Go on. Get going....

Visions had A T758 they were giving away for 1000$ last time I was there in the 32 NE location... The amps in it suck though.

I don't know why I'd need Dirac now that I don't even need XT32 with the actives. Certainly if I was thinking of going Atmos that would make sense. Admittedly I don't know enough about Dirac so teach me . I am so happy with what I have right now I have absolutely no desire to change. Of course if my Onk dies then I'll have to think about things.

If you are happy stay put!!!

Take it from me, perfection stays an inch out of reach no matter how many times you reach for it.

From a guy that literally has explored every practical avenue and learned more than is reasonable, and normal for a hobby:

“i’d trade it all for a little more” - C. Montgomery Burns

There is no stay put for us .

What’s next after Jedi?

I don't know but since there are no more Axiom speakers for my curious exploration, I don't know how I'm going to satisfy Mike's craving for hyperbole.

I'll have to wait until Axiom improves the actives. In my mind's eye I can see where 11 more drivers should go. Not sure about any more sphincters though. I will say the actives are the only sphinctered Axiom that has performed flawlessly in the bass regardless of where it was placed in the room. I really don't know how that has been accomplished.

I hope Axiom gets to those improvements after releasing the octa-sub with 15" drivers.

If only you could get Bryston stuff directly from Axiom. Would be interesting to see how they compare. Probably pretty subtle if you're comparing actives.

Take the red pill.

https://www.amazon.ca/Handbook-Sound-Studio-Construction-Recording/dp/007177274X

Mojo, “there is no spoon.”

Stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Not saying build a room. But understand the matrix.

I don't know if the Model T vs. actives is subtle or not. 8" vs. 6.5" (sort of) woofers...and more wood.

I will tell you when the actives were in my 1900 cu.ft. living room, the bass just kicked ASS! I mean it was unbelievable. And it was gooooood. Not bloated but just indescribably perfect. I couldn't get anywhere close to maxing out my measly 70W into 4Ohm Pioneer. I was like at -20 and my chest was pounding. That was the most awesome thing I ever heard. And of course the rest of the spectrum is so accurate too.

I moved them into my 4,200 cu.ft. space and the bass diminished. Don't get me wrong. Far better than M100 but they just don't have the same kick. I can't push them to disco fever levels without the dual 500s in place. Practically, it makes no difference to me because I have no need for that SPL but if I did, the 500s take over.

Yes, the room is so very important but just take a look at what the actives can do. I hopped them around and they sounded terrific in every room. I've never experienced that before. So an accurate family of curves goes a hell of a long way to removing the room from the equation. Bose sort of did that in a cheap and dirty way. Their speakers had (have?) no response below 300Hz and above 8KHz. They sound great as long as no one expects stereo everywhere but nowhere.

I gotta get that book.

True, without subs the Model T would dig deeper. But from what I can tell, there are no omnidirectional models in the Bryston line.

Right. No omnis but there are active Brystons. Their curves don't look as pristine as the active LFRs. Not sure how much of the pristininess is due to the LFR aspect vs. the active aspect.

I have an update on the active LFR1100s.

In my main space, I wasn't completely satisfied with how they didn't completely acoustically disappear and their soundstage width. My reference for disappearing is M2, M3, M5, M50 and even the M2OW in my living room. My reference for width is M2, M2OW and M5. All of these speakers have given me width way outside the speaker boundaries right to my side walls which are 5 feet away from the speakers. All speakers give me excellent depth including the M100.

Ian told me years ago to work at eliminating "position error". All of the smaller speakers I mentioned are less prone to position error when it comes to imaging. Bass response is a different matter; the M2, M2OW and the active LFR1100 are the best in the bass error department. The actives are exemplary and I really would love to understand how such linear bass response was achieved because it is quite uncanny. The QS10 and VP160 also need bass correction. There's only so much you can do with passive speakers and I think what could be done was done very well by Axiom in the v4.

So regarding position error, I spent the last 3 weeks moving the actives ever so incrementally to maximize acoustic disappearance and extend width. I am very happy to report I am now completely satisfied with how they disappear and more satisfied with width but can't say I'm completely satisfied. To get the surround effect that Craig described with Pulse, I have to turn the volume up to an uncomfortable level. That results in total immersion including the aircraft coming from behind and up above and crashing in front. I want that at a lower volume. I am disappointed with all the work I've had to put in. I don't expect anyone out there to go through what I've been through.

It's worth noting I am very picky. I am sure others would say I was over-analyzing. But I also know what I was hearing so I had to try to fix it. Movies were never a problem but certain songs were.

I still don't have to use Audyssey XT32 for 2-channel. I turn it on for movies though to correct the QS10 and 800.

I theorize the panacea for the vast majority of listeners will be the active M5. Those will likely minimize position error and give incredible soundstage while disappearing. The only thing they won't achieve is the SPL of the LFR1100 but they'll still be no slouch giving clean 107dBC peaks at 12 feet away.

I just can't get enough of drums on this system. The visceral impact, imaging and room saturation is extremely addictive.

I know what you mean, I am addicted too. It is like the drum kit is in the room with you. It something I always wanted to achieve, these LFR1100 Actives actually achieve it.

You've fulfilled your calling, Ian. Somewhere on the other side, there will be an Axiom, rockin' our souls for eternity.

Mojo’s drum obsession never drew me in till the actives. It’s not the “music” it’s listening to the sound and placement. Sound wise I’m listening to each single hit and the fullness & richness of realism that’s created. Placement is more obvious especially in the Japanese (?) drumming which is presented across the whole stage.

Yup. Exactly, Rich. Listen to the images and black space in between created by the micro and macro dynamics.

https://open.spotify.com/track/44iKEH3unzldjOrJefyLiv?si=5v4vc9ZqRa-deOMW4iyIww

Hmmm. The black spaces. Yes.

Rich, now you know why I like both the M2OW and the actives. The M2OW give me the same soundstage and images but those images are in lower acoustic resolution than the actives. This allows me to focus on the music rather than the details. I prefer them both. LOL!

Ditto with the M3 and M50. The M5 is a different animal.

Alright so I have two EP125 in cherry chestnut on order. These will, if they are good, replace my Yammie down-firing sub and my heavily-modified Sony that is over 20 years old.

Later this month, I'm going to buy more 500s and also 600s for the basement. I ultimately want a sub every foot around my 4200 cu ft listening area because Andrew said the more subs you have the better. Makes sense right? You get higher spatial resolution bass that way.

I'd bet that after 4 you're not gaining much for your space.
I'm pretty sure you're joking ... then again, now that I think about it ... I'm not that sure ...

Agreed more than 4 derives little benefit for symmetrical rooms. Mine needs 6 before it starts getting too silly - 2 front, two side and 2 back. After that, I need an AI to system-tune the bass. It's no slouch with just two 500s up front but there's no mistaking the depth and fill the 800 provides.

Gawd! When are my EP125s gonna get here? I ordered them 3 hours ago already. LOL!

The ICW button should be the opposite.......

“ I can’t wait “! Click here for instant shipping with sur charge.

Drink a cherry Powerade and cool your jets.

( but I hear ya on the anticipation. ).

I thought you were going to go for the 600s Mojo. Or is it a smaller system for the 125s?
May be a mid bass module to flank your larger subs?

Some how I managed to snap the LFE input off my SVS PB1000 something fell behind took it clean off. Sadly they put so much hot snot on the board I can't figure out how to remove or replace yet. I've been using it as kind of an MBM since it doesn't play any where as low as my EP500.

Two 600s and two more 500s are up next.

The 125s are for living room duty with M2OW.

SVS smothers their PCBs with glue.

In addition to the two EP125 in cherry chestnut, I now have two 600s in walnut caramel on order. I'm a bit unsure about the caramel.

Right on !!! You’re going for it!!

I plugged walnut caramel into the product page, looks great. I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

Stoked to see some pics when they arrive.

Thanks for the support. Aesthetics like colours and woods is something I struggle with.

Hey no worries. Thanks for all the great chats and q and a.
I’ve learned tons over the last year. And I’ve enjoyed discovering tons of great music and how to make my system sound fantastic without spending a ton of money just playing with placement and setup.

Are the m2 in your living room cherry chestnut too? Matching to subs?

The M2OW are walnut bordeaux as shown in the first image except all my Axioms are naked. The second image is the 125 in cherry chestnut. The last is my Freedom wearing its cherry chestnut woodie.

I initially thought the walnut bordeaux was too red. But not so in my livingroom with subdued natural light. When I got the Freedom, I immediately loved that cherry chestnut. I hope the subs come out as good.

I was one who never cared how long it took to get my speakers. With the wood finishes though, I am anxious to see how they look.

For my next pair of 500s, do you all prefer oak espresso (1st photo) or walnut espresso?

I'd go for walnut. Since you asked "you all," I'll speak for everyone.

I love it when you speak for everyone, Charles. The walnut espresso is indeed my fave. On my M2 bookshelves, I've found it's quite a bit darker than the image on the Axiom site. The darker application does not allow the walnut grain to shine the way it does on the Axiom image.

My dual 125s in cherry chestnut have shipped. Shipped within 12 days of order even though I asked for 21 days. I am more excited about these than the 600s. I've been very curious to see what the lowest priced Axiom sub sounds like.

Awesome and you said you skipped your place in line.
Hope they make your M2 even more glorious.

Thank you for the sentiment, Brendo. I've been very curious about this sub. The reviews of the pre-v4 were mixed leaning towards not satisfied. Unfortunately when most review on this site, they don't make it clear what version they are referring to so I have to find out for myself about v4. I bought them because I trust Andrew has optimized the design given the constraints he had to work within. I've also been so satisfied with all v4 so far that I did not care to look elsewhere. That satisfaction extends to the real wood finish.

FedEx has informed me the subs will arrive on Tuesday rather than Wednesday. This is a very good thing because my Wednesday is packed with meetings and I may not have time to prevent the FedEx driver from lofting my subs onto my driveway.

We probably should all build something like a SpaceX drone ship in our driveway to give the couriers something to aim at. It would be nice to buy something and have it get a soft landing just once.

The new Axiom packaging is nice, but I think the couriers use the bands to give each speaker a "helicopter ride" and build up some speed before they release it in the general direction of your house.

Didn't sleep a wink last night. I kept nightmaring about the FedEx dudes. In one, they took the 8" albino drivers out of the cherry chestnut 125s and used them as dartboards. In another, they used the cabinets for bean bog toss.

The new 125s are here! The new 125s are here!

And nary a scratch on their containers. All my fears were for naught. BTW, Axiom has beefed up the strapping. Two more horizontal straps around the main body of the packaging. I think Rich may have suggested that. They came in good and tight!

They are GORGEOUS!!!

Cherry Chestnut. Trapezoidal. Albino 8" v4 driver in all of its die cast glory. And v4 amp.

Awesome. I'd like to know how they perform. Let me know how a single performs in a smaller room if you can.

Today and tomorrow I am swamped with meetings. But I want to get the word out for all those who may be considering 125s.

I have them in 2.2, music only, in a 1920 cu ft living room in conjunction with M2OW. The living room is open to the rest of the house. I have no bass management other than the bass control on my Chromecast Audio and bass control on my Pioneer. Each of them is being fed from the Pioneer pre-amp outs (left out to left sub and right out to right sub). I have them set to 80Hz cross-over which is just perfect for all Axiom on-walls.

They are tight, smooth, totally musical. They put my previous (cheap) subs to shame. One is a Yammie and the other is a Sony (that I heavily modified to make sound better). Links below.

Charles, one for my room would be no problem. Plenty of tight, clean power. I have each of them set to 4 on the dial and have the bass cut to my M2OW so as not to tax the mid-woofer. Bass management of course would be better but you know what? I don't need it. Everything that is well-recorded plays full but tight and controlled.

Damn, Victor Wooten sounds so awesome. Kraftwerk, Dan Fogelberg, Yazoo, Queen, Red Hot Chili Peppers...all full, tight, nice mid-bass and controlled lows even at volumes that I'd never play. The new subs have made a previously good presentation even better. Now it just sounds so much cleaner and tactile.

Screw M5s and EP500s. Just go M2s and 125s for music. LOL!

I plan on taking them downstairs and comparing with my dual 500s.

https://www.amazon.ca/Yamaha-Corporation-America-SW315-Subwoofer/dp/B00009W8XH

http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/subwoofers/sony/sa-wm40.html

They are getting more articulate as I play them. I'm listening to Clapton's Change the World and it has such a wonderful pop and articulation. Incredible how much I was missing with my previous set-up. But I knew that.

Alright, I've hit these things HARD! I've played tons of Bassotronics through them at high enough SPL that my entire upstairs is quaking from one end of my house to the other. Bassotronics has lots of infrasonics that I figured would utterly destroy these 125s. But nope. I do smell new subbage which is very normal at these high SPLs. But absolutely no audible port, driver or cabinet noise. Very controlled. Very impressive.

The 125v4 is like a 500 with the boost switch on. It has this really nice mid-bass touch but it doesn't sacrifice the textured growling I have with my sealed subs. It's not like a one-note mid-bass punch. The sound is very nice. Very engaging.

I really think the 125 would be very good for movie effects as well as music in a smaller room like my living room. A very good double-duty sub. It's such a small size too. With that trapezoidal shape, it's easy to fit it under side tables, etc. I like having them out in the open though where I can take in the cherry chestnut.

If the other Axiom ported subs are like my 125v4, listeners may have a real conundrum on their hands. I like the 125v4. And I like the 500. That's the conundrum. In fact, I like the 125v4 better on some tracks than the 500. For example, Another one bites the dust sounds better to me on the dual 125v4/M2OW combo than on the dual 500v4 and 800v4 I have in my main room with the active LFR1100. The bass is far more engaging on the 125v4. It has to do with the perceived greater mid-bass but not so "peaky" that it is of the one-note type or distracting or over-whelming.

This 125v4 is just a terrific sub whether you're comparing sealed or ported. It's so good that it has me thinking about whether I should forego two more 500s in my main room and go with ported Axiom subs instead.

I still have two 600s coming BTW.

Do they sound like the 500s in boost?

Rich, like I wrote yesterday, the 125v4 is similar to a 500 with boost on. In my 1920 cu ft living room, the 125v4 hits harder than the 500 with boost on. I don't know how that might change in my 4200 cu ft main space.

I just want to repeat that hitting harder does not mean one note bass. There is plenty of articulation. Depending on your room acoustics, the 125v4 may give better articulation than the 500v4. In my living room, I prefer the dual 125v4 over a single or dual 500v4.

Here's a worry I have.

My very good buddy fell in love with my M100v4 when he heard them. He also liked the M2, M3, M5, M50 but after listening to M100s, he said music sounded more real through them. To each his own I guess. To me, the smaller ones soundstage better. But then again, you need to set the smaller ones up right in your room.

Anyway...

Then he heard my M2OWv4. He was blind-folded and had no idea what he was listening to. He couldn't understand why I had installed surround in my living room. But of course I hadn't. He loved the sound but found they were not as "warm" as the M100s. I'll grant him that. When I removed his blind-fold, his eyes wandered around the room. Finally, his eyes fixated on the two M2OW. He was looking at me dumb-founded. He would not believe it. So I played them and finally he acknowledged their diminutive largeness.

Fast-forward to today. The subs I had in the above experiment were my old, crappy ones. With the 125v4, there is new-found warmth and nice pop and growl. Grrrrrooowwl!

So here's the worry. My friend bought M100v4. He's going to come over later today and hear the new M2OW/125v4 system. He may just say "Why the %$*@ did I buy M100s for my living room??????"

I keep saying it over and over. And Ian has said it many times over. If you want it loud and clean, go bigger. But how loud or clean does it really have to be? In my 1920 cu ft living room, it is already loud enough across the entire band with M2OW that I can have a party in my front yard.

Yes, I am running science experiments here.

That's pretty great to know people can have satisfying low end at the low end of price. I don't currently have a need for one, but some future rearranging could call for one.

Well, what I have to say today may not sit well with everyone. But, I have to call it as I hear it. Your results may differ given your rooms and your bass preferences.

Dual EP125v4, flanking my active LFRs in my main room and fed from the dual DSPs, sound better with music than dual 500s. There, I said it! Photos of my partial main room set-up and the playlist I've used are linked below.

As for the set-up, I have tried with the active LFRs crossed to the EP125s at 80Hz and the EP125 set to 80Hz also. With this setting, I have to set the EP125 gain knob to 7 out of 10. It leaves me lots of headroom BTW. Audyssey is off but dynamic EQ is on (as always).

I have also tried with the active LFRs playing full range. With this setting, I have to set the EP125 gain knob to 6 out of 10.

The difference is not minor. It is very easy to hear. It is very, very nice with the dual 125s. The bass is not as thick and sounds even more textured. Details across my large soundstage are even more pronounced. When I turn on the 800 in the back, DEEP, permeating and gorgeous low end fills the room without any sacrifice in detail.

I have not tried movies.

As a reminder, I have been running the dual EP125v4 in my living room in 2.2 fed off the channel pre-amp outputs of my Pioneer and I love them.

Photos in my main, 4200 cu ft room:



Playlist I used for main room and living room (1920 cu ft):

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/48ebpxdI6yzRg5Ph7cTtUU?si=O9CAbMtyRiueSEdrVI35oA

Photos in living room:

Think you need to fill in that subwoofer gap inbetween the 125s

That will be a horizontal 800 to fill that gap. I'll have more to say about this.

In the previous post, I had my front 500s set to linear (flat). When I set them to boost, they provide a similar musical sound to the 125v4 but with more lower end and front stage fill. It is really difficult to say which I prefer. That just tells you how good the 125v4 is.

I placed the 125 below my side QS10s. You can see the right side of my room in the photo below. The 125 is between my right 500v4 and the 800v4 located in the rear corner of my room. The right 125 is daisy-chained to the right 500 and the left 125 is daisy-chained to the left 500. The 125s really smooth out the bass and provide a really nice side fill. They also add a smacking good mid-bass kick that is really addictive.

I forgot to mention about last night. My buddy was floored with the M2OW/125v4 set-up in my living room. He always was amazed with this set-up but of course these subs have given it a clearer and more emotional sound. Anyway, he left with my M2 bookshelves. He's going to experiment in his basement with them. I think ultimately he'll pitch out the floor-standing KEFs he has and go to M2OW.

I am very curious as to your thoughts on the sealed vs ported designs now that you have both. In the past you were quite adamant that sealed were without question superior. Based on the comments above, have you changed that firm stance?

Mike, the ported models I heard was my 600v2, a 350v2 and a plethora of other manufacturers. I had never heard a sealed until the 800v4. That cemented in my head that sealed is better compared to all others I heard. Far better.

But now...well...this 125v4 is superb! You'd never know it was ported until you lifted the grill and looked.

As far as I'm concerned, for Axiom subs, it's not about ported vs. sealed any more. It's about size, SPL and low frequency extension. That is as it ought to be!

As far as I know, I am the first to report this since the sphinctered v4 subs were birthed.

Edit: It's also about cross-over adjust, phase adjust and XLR or RCA. And it ought not to be. Andrew should have yanked the high level inputs on the ported subs and added the same cross-over adjust, phase adjust and XLR or RCA. These are the only obvious poor product decisions that I see.

It's no contest between the 125v4 and the SVS PB1000 (in ported or sealed mode). The articulation of the 125v4 is absolutely superb! My buddy and I just did a head-to-head. The SVS 1000 certainly goes lower and louder but it is muddy and not as emotionally satisfying. That goes for movies too.

Absolutely superb musicality. So totally enjoyable. It has me scratching my head why I've spent so much money on Axiom sealed subs.

On top of that, the M2 bookshelves put the KEF floor-standers to shame. And no - none of this took any critical listening. He's so pissed! Slowly he's changing everything out to Axiom.

One of the things to know about the EP125v4 is you may need to get it out of the corners. That's really the case with all subs. Don't expect it to be as linear as the sealed subs. If you stick it in a corner, certain tunes may excite it along with your room. I don't know about the other ported Axiom subs. I can only tell you what I hear with what I have. There is no such effect with the sealed Axioms I have. If you stick them in the corner, you just get bigger sound - which some may or may not like.

I've only picked up a resonance on Fly Me to the Moon by Sinatra in the playlist I posted. No such resonance on the 500 or 800 in my main room or if I place the 500 in the same place as the 125 in my living room. No such resonance if I put the 125 in my main room. It's the 125/living room interaction that is exciting the mode in the 125. I've moved it out of the corner and all is well.

Recall what I had said about the active LFRs in my living room. It was the most amazing bass I ever heard. Just the active LFRs with no sub. They were better than 500s or 125s. So of course the room/speaker interaction really matters and the actives were made for my living room as far as bass is concerned.

Having said the above, other than the resonance due to corner placement in my room on that one song, I enjoy that song more on the 125 than the 500. Simply put, the dual 125v4 sound better in my living room than a single or dual 500. I just find it to be a very tuneful, articulate sub.

Cool Mo glad your enjoying it so much.

Could the detail your finding be some what related to the amount of content the 125s are getting to play? As in real world unless your really into Hiphop/Tecno or pipe organ. There really isn't a whole lot of content in the sub 20/30Hz region? So the 125 should have more content to play in general.

For me you could say I had a competition between SVS PB1000 and Paradigm and the Paradigm smoked the SVS!!! My Anthem ARC fell behind the sub and snapped the LFE right out. Total K.O.

Brendo, the corner resonance wasn't related to low content. I'd say it was somewhere between 50 and 70Hz. I haven't heard it since I moved one sub out of the corner.

The 125 is real nice for most ladies. Females are anatomically more sensitive to low bass to the point where they ask for it to be turned off. The nice thing about the 125 is that it doesn't go down low enough to be a pain for them. It's also physically smaller of course which they tend to like.

Can you cite a reference. Never read that.

Thanks for calling that out, Trevor. I always thought that was the case particularly given my experience with women asking me to turn down the bass. But now that I've searched, I am less convinced.

I found a couple of references but nothing that I would say convinces me that females are more sensitive. First, this link cites that "Women seem to be around 3 dB more sensitive than men except at 8 and 10 Hz..." between 8 and 70 Hz.

https://www.noiseandhealth.org/article.asp?issn=1463-1741;year=2004;volume=6;issue=23;spage=37;epage=57;aulast=Moller#:~:text=%5BFigure%20%2D%204%5D%20shows%20their,be%20performed%20on%20these%20data

This link cites the following for "low frequency noise": "In somatization, a problem which has a mental or emotional cause is expressed as physical symptoms. These symptoms include: "headache, fatigue, joint pains, nervousness, sleep problems, burning of the eyes, nausea, dizziness, weakness, memory problems, gastrointestinal symptoms and respiratory symptoms" (Bailer et al., 2005). Typical patients are well educated, middle aged and about 70% female." My bolding.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1260/0263-0923.28.2.79

If you go by the amount of audiophiles we've all been exposed to I would think men are more sensitive to sound. Rarely do you find women as obsessed with sound as us. They tend to look at us laughing and thinking we're nuts.
I do find older well educated women to not like bass at all. I think it has more to do with the types of equipment they have been used to. As subs weren't really a thing until the 90s.

I helped a family member set up one of my old HTIB systems in their living room to help with T.V. dialogue. Even with the sub totally down to zero now unplugged, My grandmother who is 93 hates it due to the amount of bass even with subs integrated then turned off. It's still to much for her. Considering her oldest son has been a performer since the 60s and she's been to more shows than most anyone in boomy halls. We all find it funny since it adds so much to the experience for us.

Congrats!!! The 125s are in the house!!! Just catching up in forum land here. Awesome. Sounds like a rave review.
That’s great.

Sounds like you’re happy with cherry chestnut. That’s awesome. So glad it all worked out nicely for you. Sounds like they are a great subwoofer.

Interesting. It would seem any aversion to LF is not physiological but rather preference based. Very curious. I wonder if the “middle aged educated” is simply another way of saying “Karen”.

My wife has several Aunts that would qualify, however it would doom hopes for future humanity that they should represent the majority. PROFESSIONAL KILLJOYS. ::shudder:: LOL

All of my aunts are/were truly chilling, mustached creatures.

Rebulx said something to the effect of M5OW blowing dead rats. I don't believe it. I have to prove or disprove that claim myself. I bought M5OW in walnut bordeaux. I'll temporarily replace the M2OW to satisfy my never-quenched curiosity.

I just installed M5 inwalls today for a job. Crazy nice! Great job on the templates Axiom! Fantastic.

Definitely need an hour or so to be listenable though. But after that outstanding.

Oh yeah? How do the in-walls soundstage and image vs the bookshelves?

I just got my outriggers installed after a year. I'm very happy with the quality, install and look.

Dunno. Got the system on its feet and had to leave an hour later. Was busy on other items while the speakers started running in.

What is even more amazing is the box the outriggers ship with. It's huge! lol They are seriously heavy metal built to last!!!

The outriggers are really nice quality ... I only put a set on one of them just to see what I thought since my LFRs need to go back for FedEx/finish reasons.

I'm planning on writing up something about my impressions just needed to find some ... ah, spare time.

I second that comment!!!! Time is our our most precious commodity.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3TO7bbrUKrOSPGRTB5MeCz?si=y76QPZktTjOqHof18aEvsQ

I had to paste this. It’s like it was meant to be shared.

I hear ya rlev. I went from nothing but time on my hands , unemployed. To busy busy busy. Balance is key. Music gets me thru. I remind myself I love music AND the gear it’s played on. Not just the gear.

Edit: Ok I love the gear too , but you guys know what I mean!!

The dual 600s in walnut caramel have shipped!

Right on!!!!

So your plan is to try the 600s in place of the 500s in your LFRa setup?

Stoked to here your results.

Sounds like the 125s are great as well.

Any chance of ( at some point ) to try m5hp with ep600? Any chance that would produce a good setup? Just been pondering other combos like an m2 with ep 125.

Cheers.

I think you've missed some of my posts, Kodiak. I'm disappointed.

I'll be trying multiple topologies and configurations but none with the 600s beside the LFRs. I've already determined that given the height of the 600s, they shield some of the reflected energy from the front wall and I can't have that. It's noticeable frankly.

For configurations, I'll be trying all subs together on the .1 channel as well as 600s and 800 only for .1. For topologies, I'll be trying the 500s away from the actives (as sides). I'll be trying out "double bass" for all set-ups. Double bass is when the front channels are also routed to the .1 subs.

I've already set up M5HPs with and without my 800. They are excellent. The soundstage and imaging in my rooms are both better with the M5 compared to the M100. Everything sounds more real with the M100s though. The M5s acoustically disappear better like the M2, M3, M50.

The active LFR1100s are the epitomy of acoustical disappearance and musical reality in my main room.

In case you missed it, I've ordered M5OW to try against the M2OW along with my dual EP125s in the living room. I did this because Rebulx said the M5OW is kinda meh and also Rich said he thought the M2s were cleaner than the M5s. I want to know for myself. I can see why they may see these things. Rebulx wants loud, large and clean. The M5s are definitely meh against the M100s in that department (which he has). As for Rich's comment, the M2s are definitely cleaner-sounding than the M5s in my living room. It has to do with too much bloom in the bass. Perhaps that's what Rich heard.

Yeah. Sorry. I try to keep up but with working now it’s not as feasible. What a slacker I am.......getting behind on forum duties.

I do remember you mentioning the 600 would be “ in the shadow “ reflectively.

M5 ow as well?! Awesome man. I’d be very interested to here about those too. Sweet.

One prediction , the “double bass” may not be as “ real “ as running them stereo / 2 channel. You’ll have enough subs to run a 2 channel active with 500 support in stereo plus the 800 playing .1 and the 600s in .1 as well. Awesome.

Not sure what the call sign for that is. 2.3 stereo?

Edit: is there a way to not miss posts from threads that I want to read when I’m away from the forum for extended time?

The replacement LFR1100 Active speaker arrived today. I swapped out the outriggers from the LFR1100 Active rosewoods onto the new Walnut Bordeaux actives. Outboard are a pair of matching EP600s. I have the ADA1500s, a 7 channel Integra Research BAT RDA7, and a 2 channel Marantz 7025 for the 8 M2OWs in surround and front and side ATMOS positions. Marantz 8805 provided processing.

I didn't have much time, but watched an episode of the Mandalorian. Holy smoke!!!! The picture on the Sony XBR 75 940d and the sound from this Axiom home theater system made for a fantastic movie experience.

WOW!!! Then I wanted to hear a little music, so I went the easy way, Youtube music, listened to Ludovico Einaudi, stunning!!! I am so happy.

When you log in, you should be able to see how many posts you haven't read within each heading.

You can also click on a member and choose to follow them.

I run double bass on the 800v4 and it sounds awesome!

I went with the twin EP600s instead of the 800s because I didn't want anyone to get hurt.

You went with the twin 600s because if you had gone with twin 800s, the sound from the rear of the actives would have never escaped your alcove.

Oh, the alcove. I think twin 800s would do structural damage.

I moved the 800v4 today. Rich will be happy. My living room right above was not. I was only listening to blues at subdued volume.

Time for some more learnings.

As some of you know, I've been feeding my dual 500v4 off the active DSPs. They are positioned on the inside of each LFR. The 800v4 is in the back of my space on the .1 channel. I often switch it to what Onkyo calls "double bass" which sums the front channels and sends them to the sub. In this configuration, the 800 adds some real nice lower end support to the 500s. The 500s add spatial dimensionality to the bass.

As you can see in the top image below, I've now moved the 500s to the sides of my space, forward of my MLP. I also moved the 800 11 feet in front of me. I tried two configurations: a) 500s still fed off the DSPs and 800 off the .1 and b) all fed from .1.

Moving them to the side did what I hoped it would do - bring the sea of bass out from my front wall so that it illuminates more of the space around my side walls and into my room. This may be difficult to understand because I already had a lot of subbage. But, it has to do with how the subbage interacts with the room. I had room-filling bass to be sure that no one in their right mind would complain about. But, I suspected it could get thicker and more textured.

That it did. But not enough. I paid a lot of attention to placement and then calibration...at least as much as I could given the very humble controls and tools I have. So I then tried configuration b) and fed all three subs from .1. Bingo! The bass now is deeply saturating from the front wall to almost my MLP. The increase in texturing doesn't require an audiophile degree. It is extremely noticeable. The highly resolved growls that I love so much from my Axiom sealed subs have increased in resolution and intensity.

My dual 600s in walnut caramel arrive on Tuesday. Those are going in the back and I am keeping my fingers crossed that with both of those, I will have a temporal, spatial and spectral equipotential bass field across my entire room.

The second photo below is the splitter I am using on the 800 to feed the 500s. I don't recommend it. If you are thinking of a splitter, get a Y-cable instead.

Finally I have included links to the coax cables I purchased for the subs and joiners. I tested the conductivity and insulation for both. I didn't want any shorts that could take out my gear.

Edit: I forgot to mention I have a ton of headroom. The Onk sub gain is set to 0. The 800 is 3 on the gain dial, one 500 is at 4 and the other at 5. At my usual -30 to -20 music listening level, I likely have at least 40dB of headroom on each sub.






https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07D6K81WS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01CJ5SCGW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The 600v4 are here! The 600v4 are here!

Crank that shit up to 11 and tell us how they sound.

Here they are in all their yummy walnut caramel glory!

Axiom has added two more horizontal straps in addition to the previous two. Also the foam up top has been thickened with more layers. FedEx appears to be more careful now too based on the condition of the boxes in the last two shipments. Their drivers have been very helpful.

Here's a photo of the "lab". Some easy clean up required.

It's a whole different ball game now boys and girls. Single, large sub will do? BULLSHIDO! Mojo's dojo says differently. But I always knew that from ripple tank experiments in physics. Physics makes us all its bitches!

Here's a photo of the "lab". Some easy clean up required.

It's a whole different ball game now boys and girls. Single, large sub will do? BULLSHIDO! Mojo's dojo says differently. But I always knew that from ripple tank experiments in physics. Physics makes us all its bitches!

I love how all the equipment now doubles as a heat source. I can trade my fireplace in for more audio gear.

I am hearing articulate string bass in songs I've never heard before. Not subtle at all! Wow.

The room saturation even at low volumes is absolutely incredible. Turning it up makes an emotionally excellent experience even excellenter.

I've confirmed the 600v4 goes as low as the 800v4 in my room. They both start moving at 1 Hz but don't really get going until 10 Hz. I'd say 1 is the very useful start of the range but some may say even lower.

The HP drivers on the active LFR1100s also keep up right at 1 Hz on up.

Nothing to sneer at that's for sure.

Edit: When I turn on all 5 sealed subs, no one would argue that infrasonics down to 2 Hz are usable. No one would argue because they can feel the ripples at the supplied frequency. LOL!

Can you give me a measurement of the ep125 driver total diameter in mm. Want to compare cutout requirements for retrofitting into existing tower speakers.

I didnt receive a reply when asking about buying 8” drivers from the Bryston line, but I see the 125 drivers are available too, and at a sale price if I understand correctly until Nov 30.

225 mm.

I just noticed in my previous post I said "I'd say 1 is the very useful start of the range but some may say even lower.". I meant 10 Hz is the usable start of the range for an 800v4 or a 600v4.

A1 Thank you!

The M5OW are here. The M5OW are here. In walnut bordeaux. 2 days early.

Like their bookshelf counter-parts, these M5OWv4 are wonderful speakers. Full range for almost all music, well-balanced across all bands, highly dispersive with a holographic soundstage at all volume levels. Beautiful finish and very well-packed.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gyUJk93f2iYezoLeXBc64X0_xyS7cAx2?usp=sharing

Compared to my M2OWv4, they are longer, wider and deeper as you can see in the photos above. They're also about twice as heavy. Hanging beside a bow window is still not a problem though. They produce deeper lows and more bass and mid-range detail (texture) and are more dispersive than the M2OW. Soundstage, like my M2OW, is the entire width of my front wall and the soundstage depth of the M2OW is preserved. The M5OW can hit 5dBC higher peaks before I start to object to the woofer distortion. At 12 feet away, that's about 105dBC. To summarize, the M5OW sound more like the real performance compared to the M2OW.

I just want to say a bit more about the dispersiveness. In the piece below, you ought to be able to hear a trumpet and trombone on the left. Now look at my room photo above. That trumpet and trombone appear at the far left wall where the light is. That's six feet away. My M2OW do this as well. But there's a big difference with the M5. When I turn my head and look in the direction of those images, the effect slightly collapses with the M2OW. Not so with the M5. The image is solid!

https://open.spotify.com/track/7a2Bn6l0huPgPxDAtm7iT1?si=sxUojzRpREG5Z66B2a9l4Q

There's a catch to all this. To achieve the above with various flavors of music and various volume levels in my living room, I had to cut the bass. I mean, I had to REALLY cut the bass. First, I tried stuffing the twin ports on the bottom. I've never liked how that sounds although I know others don't object. So I took the stuffing out and cut the bass as much as I could on my Chromecast Audio. That didn't work completely. So then I cut the bass on my Pioneer all the way (-10). That did it. I had to cut the bass on both devices all the way!

From that baseline, depending on the piece of music and the volume level, I had to adjust the bass. This is something I don't have to do with the M2OWv4. Frankly, it's a real pain. But, and this is a big but, the music that comes out is oodles more emotionally involving than M2OWv4 for that extra pain.

I will say, in my living room, with the speakers mounted on the long wall to give me that wide soundstage I so much love, if I could not or did not want to cut the bass, I would take the M2OW over the M5. Recognize however this is a room mode thing. With the M5 bookshelves in my living room, I had even bigger bass problems; I could not cut the bass enough. My FWB bought M5 bookshelves for her more spacious living room and they sound wonderful in there completely uncorrected.

They are emotionally involving with the bass cut and without a sub. But what about with subs? With the dual EP125v4, they are even more emotionally evolving. No big surprise there.

Do you need a sub with the M5OW? Even if your room is "good" or the EQ correction is good, a good sub adds emotion. If you can't buy a good sub, then don't bother. If your room is bad, a sub will give you bass management options - particularly if you have EQ software.

How about against M2OW/dual 125v4? With or without a sub backing the M5OW, this is a very difficult choice. Consider what I've said in the past. Friends and family are blind-folded while listening to M2OW. When the blinds come off, they look around the room to find the speakers and are shocked to discover only two diminutive M2OW. I get the same sense of wonder every time I listen to them. Then also consider what I've said about bass response in my room. If you can't or are worried about managing the bass, M2OW is the way to go. Then there's always the aesthetic aspect. I love equipment and I love Axiom speakers but it does look like the M5OW footprint may be too much of a good thing for my room. The M2OW fit in just right. Right now, I am very biased towards the M2OW/dual 125v4 system.

How about against M5 bookshelves? This is no contest in my room. The M5 bookshelves get in the way of themselves from a bass stand-point and also from a soundstage width perspective. No one in their right minds would choose anything but M2 or M5 on-walls in my set-up. Maybe they'd choose M3OW but I can't say because I've never heard them. I've already said I take the M2OW over the active LFR1100 in this living room. But if you have a place like my BFF, the M5 bookshelves will give you music that is more real.

How about against M3s? M5s all the way unless you like more mellow, less detailed sound with a less neutral presentation. Although I have not tried M3OW, I have compared my M3 bookshelves against M2v4, M5v4, M50v4, M80v2 and M100v4. I expect the M3OW will give you a very similar soundstage as M2OW.

What am I going to do? Am I going to keep the M5OW or go back to M2OW? I really don't know right now. I suppose that tells you how good they both are.

Update: the short of it is the M5OW are staying. They sound terrific. But it took some work.

I had to move the two EP125v4. They are now on opposite corners of the room, each firing along the length. They are set to 80Hz with the gain on each at 4. This may sound quite high but recall they are being fed from my Pioneer's pre-amp outs. And the bass to them is cut all the way.

The M5s are playing with the bass cut completely on the Pioneer. I then use the bass on the Chromecast Audio to adjust depending on volume level.

I find now for my normal listening level, I don't have to adjust the bass. But if I'm grazing around in the kitchen and I want my 'nads to feel it, I turn it up and then I have to attenuate the bass.

It's worth noting that in this set-up, if I had a Transformer, I would not be able to use it because it doesn't have a bass control. If I didn't have the bass control on my Chromecast Audio, I'd have to go back to M2OW and return the M5. If my Chromecast Audio dies, I'll be in a bit of trouble for sure.

Some photos for Rebulx. Another reason for not upgrading the 500s is the walnut natural satin. Just look at it!

BTW, audio equipment is more important than chairs. My seating cost me 140 beaver dollars. It's more comfortable than theatre seating. I wish it came in walnut.

I forgot to post an important detail.

Eagles Farewell Tour is a completely different experience. I can get dance club levels in here and it's clean and totally visceral!

love your pics mojo!!! Those are some pretty nice lawn chairs! Although when you mentioned them in your last post I envisioned you sitting outside in a field wrapped around with Axiom speakers... because lets face it, it's what we do!

btw, watching the farewell tour as I write this, very nice, thanks.

I had my M100s in the yard this summer. Neighbors hated it. I said "Suck some vortex ports, grandmas. Uhh yeah!"

Oh the filth that came out of their dentured mouths. They called me all kinds of vile stuff. So I mooned them!

I can't wait until I'm really old. I'll be a real shit disturber and laugh my saggy ass off. No one's gonna beat up a grandpa. Especially not an armed one. LOL!

lol, your easy to love mojo! Your my speaker persona through and through!!!

A couple of nights ago, I had guests over and we ended up watching the first two Die Hard movies. I was sitting directly across the right active LFR and one of my guests was sitting across the left. We were both 14 feet away from the center image and two seats away from the MLP. Recall I no longer run a center. My setup is 4.5 with QS10s as sides.

Anyway, I was very surprised with both my guest and I perceiving a very strong, natural center image. I also found images didn't collapse into the active LFR close to me but rather in the volume behind it lending to diffuse effects. The active LFR furthest from me diffused its images really well too rendering them unlocalizable to the speaker.

Last time I assessed the center image away from the MLP, it only persisted one seat away. Two seats away was an absolute no go. I've since tried with other material and the center image is holding steady two seats away.

I don't know what to make of this.

I figured I'd post this here for reference.

I was taking some measurements with my active set-up today. I've been meaning to do this for a while to satisfy my curiosity. I was hitting 100dBC peaks at 14 feet away. This is very loud for me. I'd never listen this loud. My Onk was at -5 and channel levels are calibrated pretty close to 0.

I had my actives playing wide open and no sub. My DMM read about 5VRMS max on the woofers, 3V on the front mids and half a volt on the front tweeter. I didn't measure the rears. I can't measure true voltage or SPL peaks. I estimate maybe 8W average max total.

I don't know what the peak power was but if I work back from the SPL I was measuring and the spec'd in-room active LFR sensitivity, I was hitting 50W peaks per channel. So pretty close to 9dB peaks above average. I was listening to Bob Marley Legend on tape via RCA cables that are 10 feet long and 40 years old.You know...the ones that are as thin as a hair and a depressing gray color.

Of course all this could be wrong because my equipment is laughable but it feels right.

Check out williston audio labs on youtube. You are using far more power than your multimeter suggests.

I'll check it out. Yes, I do know...very well. Measuring voltage and current that sways all over the place (crest factor and frequency diversity) is tricky business.

OMG! Two more 500s are coming! Two more 500s are coming!!

I don’t know Mojo, did you just get your pay check and accidentally press the button ... or is Axiom sending you an early birthday present for being the most enthusiastic being on this side of the galaxy?

I bought more so I can upgrade them when the smart subs are introduced.

I'm also working on the Model C. Wait 'till you see that! Poor James Tanner. His Model T will look like a joke. It will be time to upgrade, Slimpikins.

hmmm ... do they go under water or are the "smart" because they like to stay dry?
If that's the case you might already have the advanced "smart" version but just don't know it.

A smart sub crawls to the ideal acoustic location in a room. Multiple smart subs cooperate with each other and sit their butts down in mutually agreed upon locations.

OMG! The new 500s are here! The new 500s are here!!

Aged walnut espresso and Boston cherry 500s. The 125 is cherry chestnut. I love woodies!

Mojo, I hear if you collect every wood in every stain Axiom gives out a special prize ...

Furniture polish?

That’s only for starters ...

Yes, a second 800 in the back would be even awesomer!

Check out my pristine wiring. I have seven DSP subs, two active LFR DSPs, a 1500-2, a 1000-8, a 1000-2, TV, PS3, Onk and router fed from a 15 Amp circuit.

Holy sh*t Mojo! Are you trying to literally get the Maxell effect?

[img]https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/zpb61E2mcEbslAjzWpYsALbCGHY4JJBUqGOcFgrPUem[/img]

Also, I'm saving that 6-subs and a pair of LFR1100s photo for the next time you tell me I'm introducing too much energy into my room.

My innards are quaking at -30 on my Onk. If I turn it up to -20, my vision distorts as me eyeballs jiggle in their sockets.

7 subs BTW. An 800v4 is in a rear corner.

Cork, rooms and speakers form complex systems. Speakers and rooms with less than ideal characteristics wreak bass havoc together.

There has been only a single speaker model that I've placed in my average-sized living room that played perfect uncorrected. That's the active LFR1100. Every other speaker, including non-Axiom, needed anywhere from a little to a lot of bass correction regardless of the number of drivers or size. Surprisingly, the M50v4 fared far better than the M3, M5 bookshelf and M5OW. The M2OW and M2 bookshelf needed very little. The M100 was a total disaster. All of those that didn't do well in my living room did very well in my larger main room but still needed correction. The actives don't need any correction even in my larger room. The M100s are also doing very well in my friend's largish living room.

One other speaker that didn't need bass correction was the Bose 601 series II. But I don't really consider that abomination a speaker.

If you want a very nice, economical speaker you can just drop in a room and not worry about any ill effects, the M2 is the way to go.

Cork, I know your joking (Maxwell Man)

But as insane as all those subs are ... if placed correctly and levels set such that when combined they blend with the LFRs the results would be smoother base thought the room rather than overwhelm it. But you knew that ...

As far as Mojo's "innards" go ... think he's attempting to create a new sonic weapon ... just needs some sort of lens to focus that energy. Actually, there's a TED talk about just that sort of thing ...

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

Rich (I see now we have two of you), I will never again share my secrets with you.

Trevor, thanks for posting that link. I wish I had a rectangular room.

I've tried four corners and mids although one corner wasn't really a corner and two of the mids were displaced from the wall boundaries. Both resulted in very flat bass at my MLP and well away. I found though I lost a lot below 25Hz. This is all by ear and with subs fed from the Onk's sub out.

The towers of power I posted started off as a joke to maximize the sound pressure at my MLP. Each tower is fed from each LFR DSP. While the sound pressure was a thing to behold, it wasn't flat at my MLP. I engaged the 800 in the back fed from the Onk's sub out. With a combination of tweaked crossovers, gains and phases, I've achieved deep, loud and flat enough bass at my MLP. It's hard to explain but I hear articulation in the bass that was hinted at with a single sub. I started noticing that articulation more as I added subs. This topology has amped that articulation up.

The problem is, there's a threshold volume which over-excites the room below 25Hz and that creates a reverberation because the room is under-damped. This isn't as much a problem with music as with movies. I can now listen to music at a very low volume and feel and hear every growl and groan in the bass. When I say low volume, it's at -30 and recall I'm sitting 14 feet away (15 usually because I lean back). This is a very comfortable level for me and with the active LFRs, I still get envelopment and a wide and deep stage. Very, very satisfying.

My buddy who stole my M100s and set up twin subs with them was over last night. He was completely floored when he listened to tunes he was familiar with. He had no idea how much bass articulation is missing in his system. One can listen to his system and be very satisfied but listening to the same stuff at my place is a different thing altogether. Of course it's not just the bass but also the clarity and spatial presentation.

I want everyone to know I was very happy with a single 800v4. All this is nothing more than an attempt to satisfy my curiosity.

If you treat an L shaped rooms like 2 adjoining rooms you can set up subs in a way that will do the same thing as they model in a rectangular room. Nearfield subs will load that area so long as you oppose them. They use this same strategy in outdoor concerts with no walls at all. Worth a try. I've done it before. Works well.

More economical perhaps. Totally guessing on your dimensions based on pics over time.

You can build a false panel to mirror the fireplace. Other acoustical benefits there too by deleting the corners. Then your right and left channels are each boundary loaded identically too.

ie.

Page 13 outlines what i was referring to in another thread re: adding more speakers to a room. The more coverage (in the extreme) the more reality it is. In this case, adding 5000 subwoofers smooths the room modes to the point of flatness hence accuracy less influenced by speaker location within a room.

Love that Harmon research. Really cool stuff.

Thanks for the analysis, Trevor. I can't mirror the fireplace because the stairs going up are on the right where you've placed the false corner. To equally load the room and get a proper soundstage and imaging, I've had to place the LFRs at unequal distances from the side walls. I've had to do that with every speaker actually. The actives are amazing because they acoustically disappear with anything thrown at them.

The experiments with the subs continue until my back or something else like nads or sphincter gives out.

After sleeping on this I think I have some clarity...
If you can shake your house hard enough and at the right frequency there might be a good chance at bring it down. Then you can rebuild it for sonic perfection. I’d bet your policy has no exclusion for sonic implosion. Simply brilliant!!

By chance did you happen to increase your home owners coverage recently?

Why yes, I did! I even took lots of videos.

I'll bet there's a specific frequency that matches the resonant frequency of the house and with 1 milliWatt, the whole mess will shake apart into dust.

BTW I'll be moving in 5 years and the new place won't have a cursed A/V room. By then though I may be crapping my drawers and babbling (more) incoherently so A/V may be the last thing I need.

Smart subs get bored after sitting in one place for a while and start wondering if there might be a better location.

If you want them to sit their butts down in mutually agreed upon locations you need moderately intelligent but well trained subs

Didn't know you were into that sort of thing
(which I take was the point after all)

Damn, the music from my actives sound so damned good. It's like I have all these sound sources within a 180 degree field and DEEP into the front. Damned amazing. I really don't deserve them. Damn!

I think it may be time to upgrade my 4.9 system to omnis all around. Trade in the QS10s for LFR660s?

Not sure if that makes sense unless your going for ATMOS / DTS-X.

With only bed speakers the surround processing will assume a non-object format. So, I don’t think the LFRS will improve your experience, over the QS10s, given that you want a diffuse image in those formats.

Now if you are going ATMOS and also adding tops … it’s still an experiment … as I’d postulate that 95% of the time movies are going for diffuse surround and you’d at least want sides and rears to get it. I’m also unsure if you’d get the actives to Image well with the 660s to give you great object placement for the other 5%.

4.1 Atmos setup guide. I would strongly suggest adding heights instead. This would be 4.1.2.

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/ab...kers-setup/4_1_virtual_speaker_setup.pdf

Sure heights would work depending on the room… certainly easier than putting them in the middle of the ceiling.

In Mojo’s case I think he has a pretty low ceiling and sits fairly far away … so you might not get enough separation vertically from the mains if on wall. (Or even forward ceiling considering his mains are something like 3 feet out from the front wall).

the problem with the dolby ATMOS setup sheets is that they have sheets for everything including two channel … which doesn’t have any surrounds at all. Have no idea what they are thinking other than marketing ATMOS for any setup.

I think given the pdf Trevor linked and his comments, he is suggesting 2 side bed speakers and 2 side tops. It is these 2 side tops that he refers to as "heights". These heights could be M2s, M3s, M5s or maybe even QS10s.

That also makes sense … as long as you can get the vertical separation.

Mojo, you have more than enough speakers to give it a whirl before buying anything …
No guess work needed … you can tell us

The link takes me to a 4.1 sheet … so I didn’t know where Trevor was thinking of putting the heights.

I’ve only seen Dolby suggest heights in front or back … but putting them on the side walls does make a lot of sense if your room is narrow enough (and a much better placement in this case)

I don't have a Dolby-capable receiver. I have also munched both forearms so bad from extreme muscular exertion I can't pick up a spoon let alone a speaker. I'm getting friggin' old. I never thought this could happen to me. It's gonna take months to recover.

If you go heights like this:

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/ab...s-setup/4_1_2_overhead_speaker_setup.pdf

Since you are MLP focused (no center channel) you can cheat the ceiling speakers closer together and ahead a bit. I wouldnt go for wall corner heights. As rrlev said best practice is seperation between bed and heights to get the best bubble effect.

Only way it works is if you go something like beds, heights and tops. But that is not supported strickly speaking by any single format.

If you put your M5OW on T-brackets on walls for surrounds and QS10s on ceiling that would be pretty badass.

Mojo, I hear you on hurting your self …
As I get older I’m getting more cautious…
This ski season I’m gonna need to work out a bit before hitting the slopes. Never had to do that before.

Trevor,
Interesting idea on QS10s for tops … might actually be badass especially in a low surround count system

What is non object format versus object?

I googled it but it’s not clear to me what those articles are trying to tell me.

ATMOS, DTS-x, Auro-3d are object formats because a sound “object” can be placed in 3d space by it’s xyz coordinates