In the process of building my system up....

Just curious if anybody can recommend a good Integrated or pre / amp that would voice well with M60. I'm awaiting arrival of refurbed M60ti's. Just getting into hi fi. I bought a pair of Polk M70 Monitor V2. Wasn't impressed so I returned them. Dove in with Axioms at a price I could handle. Looking at Yamaha A-S801 also looking at IOATvxSA3 with the additional PA3.

How sensitive / easy to drive are the M60's really? ( 90db/1w/M)?

I've read on this forum ( Ian C's comments) that the M60ti tweet can be a bit bright, anything out there that would smooth that out from the source power?

Average living room...600sq ft with 8 foot ceilings.

Listening volume preference medium with regular extended sessions of loud to very loud.

Excited to enjoy my new 2 channel stereo hobby.

Thanks to all that respond.

Can you please describe how far from the front and side walls your M60s will be placed, how far apart they will be placed and how far away you will be sitting? Is it rock you mostly listen to?

Your best bet for softening the tweeter is your tone control. Axiom at one time made in-line resistors available for the tweeters. You may or may not like that "fix" if it is still available.

Thanks for your interest andreaching out. The space between the speakers will be 14 feet. They will be placed against a wall ( laterally ) and can be placed right backed up to the rear wall or moved out 2-3 feet into the room. I sit maximum 20 feet back but that can be adjusted by me simply moving my chair.

I enjoy a very wide variety of music. Very little true “ rock “. Neil Young, Dire Straits , Moody Blues, Weather Report,, 80’s melancholy synth, Janet Jackson, 90’s rap and R&B, huge list of soundtrack instrumentals, James Taylor, Fleetwood Mac. Occasional bass head stuff on my headphones.....:).

Lots of variety. I just started enjoying lapsteel guitar recently as it sounds pretty good on my current system. ( old Yamaha RX-:595 with a pair of Sansui sp35’s. ).

I’d view the resistor as a last resort I guess if available. But I’m a fan of tone controls and equalization. No snobbery here. But I do like the pure direct button on my yammy. Which is what I’ll be using as my amp until I upgrade. It’s 80watts per channel rms. My manual / specs show it peaks at 105 watts in 8 ohms. I’m just shopping around for some fresh power to get the most out of my m60. As I do enjoy it loud. Maybe my old Yamaha is good enough for now?

My first thought when I read your post was "Wow, this is one of those rare, big rooms that will let the M60s shine." Hopefully you have a lot of freedom in that room to experiment with soundstage width and depth which results from how wide you position the speakers and how far out you can get them from the front wall. 14 feet apart is a massive width compared to most on here. If you can position their backs 3 feet away from the front wall, you'll enjoy a deep and wide soundstage.

At 20 feet back, when 1 Watt is fed into the M60s, they'll put out 70dB in sound pressure level. 70dB is a "quiet flute in the background" territory. To get to 24dB above that quiet level, you would need 256 peak Watts per side.

When listening to say Fleetwood Mac, the nominal sound pressure level may be about 80dB for moderate listening. That level requires about 10 Watts at 20 feet. When Mick smacks the drums, that's a 12dB rise in sound pressure demand - maybe more depending on how well-mastered that production is. To get from 80dB and 10W to 92dB, you need 150 additional peak Watts for a total of 160W peak per channel.

You can see then how some may see your space as both a blessing given your speaker placement options and a curse given the power demands. My advice is not to buy any additional components yet. Experiment with placing your speakers using your existing components. You may end up sitting closer than 20 feet and that will lower the power demand.

As for shrill highs, you may not experience it in your room. Avoiding toeing in the speakers can help with that.

I was very happy with my M60ti's running off 70-80 WPC receivers as long as I didn't crank up to "wall of sound" levels... but when I added an Adcom >200 WPC amp I was surprised how much clearer the sound was at high volumes.

I'm talking "hold my beer and watch this" kind of volumes though, not normal listening.

The hard thing about your question is that preferred listening level is a very personal thing and every small change in listening level requires a non-trivial percentage increase in power.

It's an eighth of a turn from "happy with 25 WPC" to "OK with 75 WPC" and another eighth of a turn from there to >200 WPC and wondering what 350W would sound like.

With older M60s I found they sounded best with very little toe-in, however with v4's a bit more toe-in seemed best.

My impression is that M60's are relatively typical for modern speakers in terms of sensitivity, although I know that's probably not much help.

I did notice that a couple of reviews for those Polks talked specifically about needing a lot of power, but it's not clear if that was to get "normal" listening levels or to get the most out of the speakers. If the latter, then one could probably argue that the same applies to M60s and most modern speakers in the same range.

Guys, Thanks for the responses and valuable input. Really appreciate it. Testament to the great things ive read about this community.

First briefly the Polks.... i think they had some level of potential. Part of the return was how they looked in my room. Way too tall and black. Our house is very " cabin like ". Lots of wood grain and earth tones. The black monoliths were way too contrasted. The Polks ( Monitor 70 V2 ) also sounded very hollow and not braced well when when rapped against. I do think you are right, they needed more power to hear the possible potential. But even with my modest receiver I wasn't wowed, or even drawn into the music. I didn't get that feeling of, " hmmmmm, there's something here". I'm not a total noob... Dad was / is into hifi. Heard lots of mid grade Paradigm and PSB over the years.Some old Koss M80's too, now that's an interesting speaker. Etc. But i digress....

I'll take your advice and just wait and hear what things sound like in my space and play with the room and placement too a bunch. I can set my room with another tighter configuration. 9-11 feet between speakers ( adjustable ) and listening spot 14-16 back, again i can adjust that too. This set up would be more cornered into the room so might become a bit boomy maybe? we'll see. The above mentioned setup is better in terms of day to day living and having the system blend into the room better.

I totally grasp the power agenda. To get a 3db rise audible sound increase or to portray dynamics doubling of power ( as a starting point) is required. This increases exponentially. I can appreciate the idea too of having that extra power in reserve and improving clarity. Perhaps an ADA-1000/1250 or 1500 2 channel ( 1500 maybe to accommodate future upgrades...) with a well thought out / appropriate sounding pre amp is on the horizon..... It will be hard to resist adding more power to the system with the looming idea of more potential. I like the hold my beer and watch this comment, nice.

Bottom line is sounds like i've got some playing to do with set up and room configuration and some listening over time to see if this all good or not with in my 30 days to retun them if no good. ( I doubt this will be the case as i've read a ton of great things about axiom and feel the company is understated, at least that's my perception.) But man do people rag hard on Axiom when they get the chance, not sure why? Everything i've read from the company or seen videos comes across as honest and science based with a solid history and progression. Oh well, that's the internet I guess.

This is all moot though until i actually hear the Axiom " sound"! Still waiting on arrival of the M60's.

Thanks again really appreciate the responses and will update as things get arrive and get set up here. Keep the the conversation going if you like, it's fun to chat.

Noticed the signatures guys....LFR's? Very cool. Would love to hear that set up some day.

All the best.

Kodiak, one of the things you might want to experiment with if you will place the 60s in a corner or close to wall boundaries is port plugs. Each M60 has three ports. Axiom has them available.

How you position speakers in a room and where you listen from has a lot to do with how much you will enjoy them. I was reminded of that again at my buddy's place last night. His floor-standing KEFs are very similar in sound to M3s but they sound like a $10 speaker from his seating location. When I had him sit 5 feet closer, it was a revelation.

Mojo, Very good anecdotal evidence. Makes me think I didn't really give those Polks a fair shake. Oh well. KEF have a good reputation, looked at those too. Really nice. I'd love one of their powered setups for my bedroom.

I'll look into the port plugs. Good call. If i can find the near perfect balance of sound stage image and performance while having the speakers in practical location for the living room would be great for more casual day to day listening and living. ( And would be more secured against the attack and curiosity of the children that live in my house. Ha Ha....little buggers.) And then possibly experiment with the " larger wider 14 foot" set up which could be a secondary position for more extended private higher SPL listening. More like an " event " and move everything and set it all up for a weekend of engrossed listening. I'm liking that idea.

Thanks for pointing out the ports, checking them out now.

Back in the day when I first came to the Axiom family and before I enclosed in my theater room I was driving M60tis with a Denon 2805 in a 900 sq ft room and it was amazing.

Randy, I remember that. Before my v2 arrived in 2007, I was driving a pair of Bose 601s, a Soundstage centre and two plastic Sony bookshelves with my Denon 2105. The Denon was de-commissioned in 2012 when I got my current Onkyo TX-NR818 and brought my v2 to life. Then v4 arrived which evoked passionate hosannas causing me to upgrade eternally until I could no more!

I lent the Denon 2105 and Bose 601s to my friend who was over-joyed with the sound until I replaced the 601s with M3s and scrambled her sensibilities only to do it again with M5s which she ordered in walnut natural satin after a mere 30 seconds of listening. Now she wants to try the M100s for fear of missing out and does not want to try the M100s for fear of triggering Mojo madness.

And such is the cycle of audio life, Mr. Porter.

Obviously you didn't do a very good job selling those LFRs and mega AMPs ... I'd have her come back for another listen.

Madness and fun often go together.

A corollary:
A hobby is often seen as Madness from another perspective (like you wifes)

No one could have sold my friends anything related to audio. For most, it is a slow process. Once they become aware, on their own, it is difficult for them to go back.

Well I’d have to agree sir quack. I’m in about a total of 750 sq ft and these things rock!! They arrived Friday. Listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged. Truly spectacular. Even with my sub par CD transport and old Yamaha. Looking forward to playing with positioning and slowly upgrading components. But man I’m impressed. It’s playing right now while I’m typing and it’s so immersive. I’m home alone and keep looking over my shoulder cause I hear stuff that shouldn’t be there! But it’s the recording. The soundstage is wide and impressive. Listening in pure direct no eq needed. Definately underpowered for truly loud spl though. And need a decent DAC to stream off computer. Poor quality. CD are so much better.

Mojo you can show up a my place with those m100s anytime!! Ha. Very happy customer.

Eric Clapton Unplugged track 13 ( second to last track 7:55 of acoustic bliss. Listen to the piano that comes Center stage around 5 min in too. Stunning. I’m hooked. Axiom gets my vote.

Nice! I am very happy for you.

Thanks mojo!! Track 1 wish you were here pink Floyd. MY GOD. And to think I’m starting off with low grade components and cables.

Very Happy. My neighbours aren’t going to like me.

Looking forward to trying some 2 channel dvds too.

Totally hooked on this “hobby”.

Welcome to the Machine.........

Wait 'till you upgrade to active LFRs.

I can’t even imagine the world those must transport you into. Gotta hear those one day for sure.

I’m sure you considered it or maybe you heard the Bryton model t actives / dsp? But no omni directional though. Those look interesting too.

Those LFRs must be incredible.

The active LFRs were built for your space!

The Axioms have a better value proposition and I'm sure they are similarly good to the Brystons.

Kodiak, try this:

https://open.spotify.com/track/56aZjhRKgkBjPzwgHu826m?si=mfejklE8SPSvcq2SjTS4Zw

Kodiak, seeing as you enjoy Clapton and Gilmour maybe give Jeff Beck
“Live at Ronnie Scott’s “ a listen. It’s a relatively (2008) new performance/recording on Blu-ray.
So many excellent tracks to choose from, #s 7,5,4 and 16 come to mind.
These tracks will help your system just shine!
cheers, Jeff

Yep... M60ti's are pretty impressive speakers. Mine are in a loft that opens to pretty much the whole house, so roughly the same size room area as you have depending on how you do the math.

If you ever end up with more power (is the "Yamaha" you mentioned the A-S801 ?) your neighbors are *really* not going to like you

Congrats on the new speakers !

Hey guys thanks for the track recommendations. I’ll be listening to those soon. Tomorrow is another empty house for a few hours. Can’t wait.

Yes bridgman the Yamaha I’ve got my eyes on is the Yamaha 801. It’s got everything I want for inputs, a quality I think that would match well with m60ti and a reasonable amount of power. I’m tempted to do separates but the integrated option is nice and convenient. The only thing the 801 doesn’t have that I want is pre out. And the subwoofer line out is filtered at 90hz. ( I have visions of a couple axiom ep350 or 500 joining the m60’s at some point. ). The filter is a minor point but no pre out might be a deal breaker. I’d would be nice to not have to buy a pre amp as well. I’ve seen some adcom outboard amps for sale as well some older anthem and others. What I really want is an ADA-1500 2 channel. But I’m getting ahead of myself. First a DAC , ( Schiit M3) then a new CD / Bluray player then some new power.

I’ve just dove into “craigsubs “ post on his lfr1100. I’m only a few pages in. But it’s got me dreaming........

Bridgman , do you have the Yamaha 801?

If yes, what’s your personal opinion on it?

Thanks.

Integra 9.8, 7.1 channel processor, used, $300. Canuck Audio Mart. A bunch of Anthem processors, used, low prices.

Used multi channel amps are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Go with a quality brand - Anthem, Parasound, Rotel, Yamaha, Marantz ...

You can get a nice component system for less than a new receiver.

Good luck!

Kodiak, I think ultimately, in order to enjoy "loud", you will need an amp capable of 1000 peak Watts per side. That will get you to 100+ dB per side at your 20 foot listening position.

At that point, you will also need new speakers. Your M60s will start compressing at around that level...maybe even before.

It's really important though to spend some time with what you have before making any changes. Get to know the system to understand what you may be missing. Admittedly it's hard to know unless you've heard it before. Even with a great system, it's only as good as the recording. With good recordings, you should be hearing a soundstage at least as wide as the speaker width, depth equal to the distance to your front wall and the vast majority of images on the stage. The degree to which those images are separated on the soundstage, and their definition, depends largely on the accuracy of the speakers. With more accurate speakers, it's like your ears put on eye glasses.

Good advice on the used market for sure. I think id steer away from multi channel receivers in search of a dedicated 2 channel integrated. Maybe i've drank the kool-aid in terms of believing in uncomplicated internals and short signal paths. But i think there's some truth to it. I'm happy waiting for the right thing to come along or wait until i can afford what i want or think is appropriate.

Mojo, yes i'm with ya on the idea of taking my time for sure and getting to know my system. There's other upgrades to make before a new power source happens. I am quite impressed with my " ancient" 2 channel receiver from 1995! ( Yamaha RX- 595).
It does a respectable job ( in my limited experience.) It seems to match well with the axioms, although im in a bit of a bubble with nothing to compare it too. But the idea that m60ti was bright or harsh in the high ranges doesn't seem to be a problem upto the limits of my amplifier, it's not fatiguing. In fact it's quite good. ( again, not a ton of things to compare too. But compared to my dads old Paradigm Monitor 9's the m60's are superior in many ways, including the the high range. ( Monitors 9 are bright for sure, alittle harsh.)

I got the tape measure out and my distance to listening spot is 17 feet away in a possible 13.5 foot wide set up. Or set up on another wall i'm 10 feet wide and up to 16 feet away. ( currently setup this way for daily life ) I've been playing with wall boundary's in the current configuration. ( 10 feet wide.) I've tried playing with tone controls too but the pure direct mode is really the best. Been experimenting with the ports too with stuffing socks in there, not a proper port plug but it's a start to be able to see what makes the difference.

With your advice in mind i keep playing music and dialing things in. As for getting it loud it sounds like i need to optimize and enjoy what i have here and in the mean time research ( i enjoy that part, reading and videos etc) another future system that can play very loud and clear. ( M100 maybe? Klipsch RF-7 3?)

But as for 1000 watts peak and compression limits in my m60s that sounds like a need to move up into a larger system. So that won't be anytime soon. I'll focus on getting what i have as loud as possible with quality sound with good components over time. I may have to settle for"medium loud" but aim at quality and clarity for now.

Just wait until you get upgraditis and get M80s or better

Shh your not supposed to let people know most of us suffer that condition. Exactly how I ended up M80\M22/M3 in my collection.

I don't have one, although I have a nagging feeling that one of my friends had one of its predecessors and was very happy with it.

If I believed in electronics from different vendors having different "sounds" I would put Yamaha in the "brighter" category and so maybe not the best match for your M60's, but to this day I don't know if I believe that. My experience with Yamaha electronics has mostly been paired with Yamaha speakers, and while I do believe the speakers have characteristic sounds I have a tough time extending that to electronics.

All that said, it's not clear to me that the Yamaha integrated amp would get you much benefit over the RX 595 you have today.

For what it's worth, my stereo electronics progression was:

SWTPC pre-amp with SWTPC power amp (yeah, 40 yrs ago)
Advent receiver with SWTPC power amp
Advent receiver with Marantz power amp
Advent receiver (I got domesticated and downsized)
HK 3470 receiver
HK 3470 receiver with Adcom GFA 555 II
TubeDAC with Adcom GFA 555 II
TubeDAC with 2x ADA 1500 (hope to finish setup this weekend)

I ended up not using the tube stage, but did find that using the optical out from my old Kenwood CD carousel via TubeDAC significantly improved imaging compared with the RCA outs and internal-to-carousel DAC I was using previously.

Just noticed your notes about testing positions etc..., so a few more comments:

#1 - agree that even the older Axioms are not what I would call "bright"... but what they do seem to be is flat in the 2-3 KHz range where many other speakers have a slight dip (sometimes referred to as "the BBC dip". There are some recordings floating around that seem to have been optimized for speakers with a 2-3 KHz dip (eg the studio monitors had it) and those seem to be the ones most likely to be responsible for the "bright" label.

The upside of the flat response is the very nice open-ness / crispness / transparency / whatever that you are probably enjoying right now.

#2 - the closest thing to a quirk that the bigger Axioms have is that they usually work best a few feet out from the wall, although port plugs can sometimes help there. If you have the options for placement the one with the longer listener-to-speaker distance is probably worth trying first.

Ha ha. Yes. The dreaded upgraditis! I've got the dreaded research and experimentitis!

Agree bridgman, i have doubts over the real " upgrade in the as801 over what i already have as far as power supply, but lots more connectivity. ADA 555? Nice. That thing looks like a beast! Do you have thread going on your ADA amps somewhere? If not i'd love to hear what your initial impressions are if you get around to your project.

I'm gonna get a cd/blueray/dvd ( suggestions?)... player and a reasonable outboard DAC for streaming off computer and focus on dialing in my positioning and my space for " room treatments"etc. And some quality (reasonable $$) cables and interconnect.

I think they are is some truth to how an amp "sounds" but i think you need to have revealing neutral speakers to hear those differences and those differences are subtle i believe.

I remember hooking up my old 2 way bass reflex no name speakers to a 125 watt rms JVC ( this is 25 years ago or more ) and they really came alive from what i remember. I had them hooked up to low grade low power reciever, can't recall what it was but the difference was incredible. I mean it was still probably not great but the difference was tangible. I bet those difference between electronics is true they are just very subtle and maybe only detectable to really well trained ear with music they know really well. I think the larger "gains" ( no pun intended ) is from as MOJO put it, in he source or quality of the recording you are playing.

Good thoughts all. Fun stuff!

Haven't listened to the ADA1500's yet... I guess maybe I should try to hook them up with existing equipment first before I go all the way to LFR1100's / DSP's / ADA1500's.

That seems like a more achievable goal

Recently sloth has worked pretty well for me. I ordered a set of LFR1100's a year or so ago but I was working pretty much 24/7 and never had time to set them up, so the boxes sat unopened in the front hall.

Fast forward to April this year. Just as I was getting close to setting them up, Ian announced the active LFR1100's and I thought "hey, I haven't opened the passive ones yet". Talked to Ian and arranged to trade up to the actives. They were ready in September, and after a few false starts (sorry Debbie) I picked them up, along with new DSPs and a second ADA1500 since the actives need 10 channels of amplification.

Yes it's December now and yes this is a bit embarrassing. I'm mostly keeping quiet until I have a chance to get everything out of the boxes and hooked up. Otherwise it's a bit too much like an old Joe Walsh song...

"I have a mansion but forget the price...
ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice"

I totally understand the being busy thing and working 24 / 7. I’m enjoying some downtime but it’s about to get very busy and the hobbies get put away when that happens.

I’m fascinated by the lfr1100 and the dsp and the quintet amplififaction. I first saw this with the Brystons model t actives. ( although with less amplification ) But with the omni directional setup I bet it’ is ( or in your case going to be ) spectacular.


Let me know how it sounds or if it works out to hook up those ADA. You’re the perfect candidate to test m60ti with an ADA 1500. And with a tubeDAC too. Or with any pre and ADA I guess. Would love to know your take on that.

Good info on the BBC dip. I’d never heard of that or knew about the 2-3 k dip. Interesting.
Thanks for the extra notes there too with listen position and quirks.
I’ll be trying a further listening position next. I’ve been finding that less toe in is better so far. Just listened to Tragically Hip “ In Violet Light” CD album. Amazing. Especially track 4 “ the GoodLife might have to weaken” and track “ dire wolf”. WOW. I actually find myself talking out loud to no one saying “ my god! “ or other expletives of amazement. So addicted. So much fun!

Again , I know I’m operating in bubble but it’s hard to imagine it getting better. Until one day I’ll put on those glasses that MOJO was talking about.

One quirk I’m finding is a seem to get more vocal “ localizing” just slightly right of center. I played with balance but all other sounds are equal loudness. Just vocals. Sounds like the lead vocalist is just to the right of center. I’ve noticed it with Diana Krall and kd Lang as well as with just now Gord Downey but he was the closest to center. Out of phase? This is reaching beyond my technical understanding.....Any thoughts?

Quick edit add on..... could the vocal thing be a room boundary?

If your right speaker is closer to a room boundary than the left, you will hear vocals closer to the right. Best thing to do is listen to mono pink noise to help you center the image.

A bit more toe in on the left or less toe in on the right can also help with imaging.

Thanks mojo. Appreciate it. Cheers.

If you think it has to do with Phase of the speaker, Use a 9v. battery just touch the Amp. end of the wire to the 9v. while watching the drivers they should all move outwards when in correct phase.

Brendo. Thanks. Good tip. I’ll try it. I did some reading....... I think I should have said polarity. Phase is something else that’s a bit more esoteric. I don’t know how to explain it but it makes sense when I read the difference between polarity and phase. It’s got something to do with timing and the leading edge of sound waves. I’ll stop there because I’m probably gonna make a mess of describing it. But what I read was quite interesting. Anybody out there with a simple way to explain polarity versus phase?

Setup the Xmas treetoday. BingCrosby crooning away in the background. Sounding lovely on m60s. . A little Vince Guaraldi too. Nice sounds with the hush of brushes on snares piano plunks and standup bass. See even dads can have fun putting up the Xmas decor. ( with one ear turned to the soundstage).

Happy Weekend.

Polarity refers to whether two pressure waves are in compression or rarefaction. Phase refers to where specifically in their compression or rarefaction stages they are.

Say you are listening to drums in mono on two speakers that are connected with correct polarity and are far away from any boundaries. The drivers of both speakers should move out and in together. When they move out, the air is in compression. When they move in, the air is in rarefaction.

If you were to place a microphone at your listening position and record how the air pressure varies with time from each one separately, you'd end up with two waves. The "top" (positive) part of each wave would be the compression. The "bottom" (negative) part of the wave would be the rarefaction. We refer to them as positive or negative with respect to the resting state (no movement of the speaker drivers) which is no compression or rarefaction. Since the drivers move together, so do these waves; both waves occur at the exact same time. At your listening position, when both speakers are on, they add up to a bigger wave that has the exact same shape but a larger pressure than each constituent wave. You hear a solid beat that is tight, articulate, room-filling and emotionally satisfying.

Let's suppose however that one driver was slightly "slower" than the other. In that case, one would start before the other. So you'd have two waves again like before but they would not be "rising and falling" together. In other words, they would not be synchronized; the two waves would not be in phase. They're still the same shape as before but not coincident in time. At your listening position, they add up to a bigger wave sometimes but not at other times. You hear a distorted beat that is soft, fuzzy, flat and emotionally confusing.

Phase displacement can be translated into a time displacement with some simple math. If the two waves are out of phase enough, their polarity may change. This happens when one wave starts going positive while the other starts going negative. Another way to say this is when one speaker starts to move in while the other is starting to move out. This is the condition where they are out of phase by 180 degrees and the polarity of one is inverted with respect to the other.

Note that, for many reasons, two speakers will never be in perfect phase alignment. With digital filtering and active speakers though, you can get pretty darned close.

So bottom line here is get the wiring correct and Brendo's suggestion of a 9V battery for woofer testing is a good one.

P.S. a good analogy to understand polarity vs phase is two pin-wheels with each half painted a different color. If the colors are perfectly "aligned" on both as they spin, they are in phase and of matched polarity. If one starts to slow down relative to the other, the phase between them changes. Eventually they may reach a point where the top and bottom of them are two different colors and this is where they've switched polarities.

Wow thanx for the awesome analogy.
Couldn't have explained so clearly my self.

But they are totally related due to if we switched the polarity it would in turn switch the Phase. Which can cause such anomalies.
I actually learned that 9v. trick from an Axiom video with Debbie a few years ago.

I highly recommend viewing the Axiom youtube. Lots of info.
No B.S. As of recent there hasn't been to many released, but the older ones with Alan and Debbie have tons of detailed set up.

There's even one of turning your center upside down in case you'd like to put it really low. In the vid. Debbie even shows you, To simply turn the drivers so the Axiom badge is in correct place.

Indeed. Switching the polarity changes the phase by 180 degrees.

I learned the 9 volt battery trick from Mr. Nakamura in grade 10. It was actually a 1.5V battery trick at the time.

P.S. In grade 11 I learned a few more tricks from Sheila and Lisa. I perfected those in grade 12 with Crystal.

Thanks mojo. GREAT info. That actually makes sense. I’ve re read that a few times. Maybe the answer is in your description but here’s another question..... with 180 deg phase switch I get it. Flip the polarity and the waves synch. I understand when you say that speakers aren’t perfect but where would the timing inequality come from? The source? The amplifier? Micro Inequalities in the woofer/tweeter/speaker construction? Probably all of those I guess.

As for a result of fuzzy sounds and emotionally confusing that makes sense too. Good one. So if I follow that thinking then some minor out of phase artifacts could affect soundstage clarity and positioning too.

Man this stuff is really interesting. Thanks guys. So those active Lfr 1100 must be INCREDIBLE clear and precise.

Thanks again for the schooling.
Feel free to correct any of musings, it’s just me thinking out loud. I really enjoy the nitty gritty and the details and the science of how this stuff works.

Sooooo many good jokes in response to perfecting tricks but I’ll leave it alone for fear of being banned from the forum. Ha.

All three of those high school ladies were incredible athletes and they taught me valuable tennis and badminton skills. Not sure what y'all were thinking.

The timing inequalities come from many areas as you've hinted. There are so many possible variations within the components of a single driver alone: permanent magnet, voicecoil construction, driver, spider, surround. Now consider how impossible it is for multiple drivers within a system like the M60 to move in perfect unison. Even if they were impossibly perfect in design and manufacturing execution, once they are placed in a room, room boundary conditions enter into the equations of motion of the drivers and the resulting solutions are non-linear and hence the resulting sound would be distorted in time (phase) and amplitude. Physics always wins!

Add to this the fact that the electrical signal has to propagate through the crossover filter network which introduces frequency-dependent time (phase) delays. Also the components that comprise the filter drift in value not only with time but also volume (gain), temperature and humidity and that drift also affects phase shift.

And yes, all this affects imaging and soundstage. Images may waver in space, they may be indistinct by being smudged together and their shapes may be ill-defined. There is no question any of my v4 speakers are superior to my old v2 in the imaging and soundstage departments. As you move from v4 M3/M50 to M5 to M100, the soundstage expands, you can see more images, the space between images expands and they become clearer. The active LFR takes things to an absolutely superlative level as if the already terrific eyeglasses I had with the M100 were of inferior glass.

The active LFRs are far more accurate. It is as simple as that. Have a look at the frequency response curves of the M5, M100, passive LFR and active LFR. They tell a story. Note how the listening window and sound power curves of the active LFR are nearly identical. Show me another speaker that can do that.

Those lfr’s sound truly inspiring. I really feel like axiom is under rated. Man I’ve read some hateful and uninformed reviews out there. Am I missing something? Not sure why people are so up in arms over certain things. Crazy. Anyway......

I’m still working on getting my vocals centered. Been trying playing with positioning. Move far away from walls etc. Checked bi wire connectors. All is as it should be. Phase polarity is correct. Some tracks do have the vocals centered when I have the m60s far away from the walls ( side and front walls) but they are much closer together. I played with toeing in and out too.

Other tracks still have the vocals dominating to the right channel. There’s times when it sounds like the left channel is quieter ....... maybe? I can hear sound and feel movement of all woofers bass/ mid and tweet too.

The next move I think is to swap the speakers and see if the soundstage stays the same or changes. That way I can eliminate that it’s the speaker and is something else.

Maybe it’s just inexperience with how things are supposed to sound? I mean it still sounds AMAZING , down right beautiful , but the image is just not centered.

Any other thoughts on this?

Your idea of switching speakers is a good one.

One thing you can try is playing a signal that is the same in the left and right channels. Radio inter-station noise is a good one. Measure the voltage on each speaker. If it's the same, your amp is sending out a balanced signal. If the noise isn't focused in the centre, it could be one speaker is slightly more sensitive than the other or it could be your room.

Keep notes. If the same song presents imaging in different ways from one listening session to the next, try to note what may have changed. Could it be volume or temperature?

The Axiom tweeters use ferrofluid for cooling. If your room is cold one day and warm the next, imaging and other sound qualities can be affected. I can tell you when I had v2, I detected sound changes I could not readily explain other than perhaps the temperature of my environment. With v4, I don't hear such variations.

Thanks mojo. Yeah our place is wood heat so sometimes we get lazy and it gets cold in here. Could be that for sure.

I’ll keep some notes and try the speaker swap and see what I come up with.

I bought some component spray air. I’m gonna clean out my receiver too. My one pure direct button has some static. Maybe the balance dial is off a bit / dirty too.

Any other tips to clean my receiver?
( really appreciate all the feedback from last while. ). Cheers.

This is an interesting method for speaker placement. The meat of it starts in the section " To WASP or not....".

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

Looks like agood read. I’m making a coffee now. Load up the wood stove. Here we go......

I am envious of the wood stove. I'd like to have a place in the deep, dark woods and graze with the wolves while howling by the light of the pale moon. When done feasting, I'd like to return to my Axioms.

Well it is dark and I’m in the woods here for sure. But the only howling is the screaming children and my wife and I. It’s kinda like a pack of wolves. But not quite what you’re thinking of. The only feast around here is grilled cheese.

My other hobby other than 2 channel audio is wood stoves. Wood heat is absolutely fantastic. This forum and a wood stove / wood heat forum are the only forum pages I’m on. That’s right, you thought you were a super nerd but wood stoves now that’s as nerdy as I can imagine. Don’t tell my friends. ......

My most enjoyed listening since I’ve got the m60s was a dark living room with wood stove glowing. Snowing lightly outside. Empty quiet house and BB King. Not loud. Just pleasant medium volume.

Just “thrilling”.

“ You gave me seven children, and now you want to give em back!” Classic.

I'd like to put a wood stove in my 40 year old bLuLu. I had a great time with her (and my BFF/FWB) in Nelson and some of the nearby ghost towns.

She’s a classic! Wood stoves in vans and RV ‘ s are all the rage these days. Mini wood stoves too. Specialty made for that exact application.

Are you sure you don’t want to put 24 12” subs in there and go for the 150 dB bass world record? I can here the audiophile review now “ overly coloured low end “.

Ha ha.

24x12" subs in there would provide similarly good heating.

Ah yes, the soft subtle subdued heat of melting voice coils. Nothing better.

Ok here’s a weird find. I tried to go to Bryston website. Looks like they’re re vamping. There’s a link / icon for a “ T. rex”.
The link doesn’t work but a google search turns up Tanner at an audio show with two model t’s stacked ( I’ve read how much you guys like stacking:) ). Tweeters together in the middle. Wow! Set up like a line array but with all the various woofer sizes. Is this gonna be a product they re gonna market?
That’s different for sure.

Oh nevermind. I dug a little deeper. It’s been in the works for awhile. Wonder if connecting the speaker boxes like that would need some resonance support to prevent vibration between the cabinets. Gonna be an active crossover design too. Really interesting. With that many woofers and tweeters it’s sure moving a lot of air.

Anybody ever tried 2 pairs of m100 ‘s not stacked , but side by side? Would that even work timing wise? How much more SPL would you get out of it? Or is stacking the trick to spread it all out? I’m just talking out loud here , wondering. Not really needing an answer per se , just musing. But interesting to ponder. Add some dual ep 800’s beside them. Give em tons of power. Hmmmmmm.

Pretty cool the things that are coming out. I really think these lfr’s are ahead of their time by the sounds of it.

Two model T's stacked like that would be the model I.

In general you don't want to stack side-by-side because it spreads out the apparent source of sound and seems to weaken imaging.

It might be more workable if the speakers were identical (I'm a bit fuzzy on that) but so far all of our stacking opportunities seem to have been with different models, eg M2's on top of M60's.

Oh my... definitely tall ceilings required:

Active loudspeakers

The full size T-Rex stacks are just under 9 feet tall.

Yes, James and crew had these on display at a recent Toronto audio show. The sound was incredible and everywhere in their room! Not my photo, but here they are in the wild! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=3&theater

Resistance should be interesting.

The dual M5s, a load of 3 Ohms and slightly less, brought the 1500 to its knees but not before 112 dBC was measured 12 feet away. I can't tell you what that sounded like because I had muffs on but I know crossed to a sub at 80 Hz, I can take the M5s to 105 dBC before I detect squirreliness.

Clearly you need some audiophile earmuffs.

112db!! Awesome. I love that you all are into experimenting as trying things out. It’s great.

Well I switched the speakers around and still louder in the same spot / right side.

Next I’m going to switch the channels left for right and see if the problem travels. I’m thinking it might be my pot / attenuator. I was reading that the pot can be less accurate at low volumes. And I can attest to the fact that things do balance out and sound fantastic at medium to loud volumes.

Some deoxit in the pot should take care of it? Or do I need a new assembly and a technician todo this for me?

I guess I’ll just have to listen at high volumes ( as was cheekily suggested in another forum I read randomly. ).

And switching gears here a bit ( punny right) but does anybody have any recommendations or opinions on OUTBOARD DAC S? I had my heart set a Schiit Modi 3 ( as recommended by Darko, he seems level headed ...). But getting shipped to Canada is expensive. Anything else out there in the 1-200$ starter DAC range?

I guess this thread is way off topic but seems to be ok.

Thanks all.

Looking at shipping costs, I would be tempted to go for the Modi3 and ship it via uninsured USPS. Buying anything in that price range from outside Canada is always a bit painful because cost of insured priority shipping is is a fair chunk of the purchase price.

Going with the cheapest USPS seems to give you the best chance of having it show up in your mailbox without duties/customs charges as well.


4 pages on topic is unusual around here unless the topic is really generic.

Ok. Thanks bridgman. I’m gonna go for it. It’s the best value DAC with the best reviews and has all the inputs I want for various things / sources to plug in.

Ya this thread has sort of turned into my own personal setup journey and other musings. I guess I’ll just keep going with it for it now.

Kodiak, how exactly are you planning to use this Schiity thing in your system?

Mojo, gonna stream off my pc computer. I like Spotify. I am considering getting Tidal to add to streaming. I don’t have the $$$ right now to invest in dedicated DAC / streamer player.

Also gonna use the digital coax out of my older CD player. Just think an outboard dac will be better than whatever is in my CD player or whatever is in my laptop. Also I can use the optical / toslink connection to hook up my cable box to play all my streaming tv music movies and cable into my receiver. As well in Telus fibre I get all those music channels too. So I can get all those too into receiver. That’s my plan at least.

The main one is to get my Spotify streaming sounding cleaner off my pc. It’s a quite poor sounding. Muddy.

Right now the best quality I can achieve is playing all my cds straight off my CD player with its built in internal DAC.

From what I ve read it seems a jump in quality / clarity and detail can be accessed with an outboard DAC.

I think you just wanted to say SCHITTY. Ha.

I see. Thanks. I did want to say Schiity but I also wanted to learn what you're planning. Have you considered the Axiom Air Transformer?

Ask your neighbors ... I'm sure they know

I can say that I’ve been very happy with the quality of the Transformer streaming via Spotify connect. It has Ethernet/WiFi to connect up to streaming services and allows for Tidal, which also sounds very good although the UI is sometimes inconsistent. It only has one digital input, optical, no coax which might be an issue for you but you probably wouldn’t need to connect your computer to it.

I know it has a burr brown dac which are good.

Lastly, it is more expensive.

Why buy the Schiit when you can get apps on the AxiomAir Transformer?

The problem I have with all these DACs is performance specs are not published.

Thanks for the feedback curved air. Yeah with the wireless I wouldn’t need as many inputs / coax. My current CD player only has coax as a digital feed out.

I’d love to get an axiom air / transformer but the price is up there. ( for me at least ). Which is why the Schiit modi 3 is on my list.
If was going into the axiom price band I’d look at other options too like the chord mojo etc.

But mojo you’re totally right. ( again , smirk). How do we compare these DACs? Other than anecdotal reviews. ( which can be good and trusted I think). For example, Curved air above says the burr brown dac sounds good. I believe him. ( why would he lie?). Then another reviewer says the modi 3 sounds good. Compared to what? Our own subjective preferences. At least in this case we are all working with in the relative similarity of axiom sound / voicing.

I’ve always believed in buying things once and aiming at the quality one can afford in this purely first world hobby. But then again this hobby is about mixing matching and experimenting. And there’s a part of me that feels that prioritizing on components is important. I’d rather have a cheaper DAC and save for amps. Really though it’s only $200 and amps are gonna be $$$ bling.

But that wireless connection with apps sounds lovely.

Can anyone comment further on the sound of the burr brown dac ?

Thanks all. Interesting food for thought.

Ok. So I’ve already done the speaker swap. And now I switched the speaker wires at the out put on my receiver and the problem travelled. ( one channel quieter than the other. ) This leads me to believe it’s the receiver and probably the pot / attenuator sensitivity. Nice to know it’s not a major room boundary or something.

Guess I’m gonna pull it all out and clean it. I’m watching videos on how to deox it. Will this be enough , I guess we ll see. Any other tips ?

Listened to DSOTM on a regular CD. Fabulous at medium loud volumes. ( seems the channel imbalance disappears at louder SPL).

Nice troubleshooting. Frankly, the culprit(s) may be so many different component(s) along the signal path. I hope it is the pot and hopefully you can replace it if it comes to that.

I believe both the Schiit and the Transformer sound good but what are you missing with one vs the other or maybe both? To really know, you'd have to really listen to both and maybe a "reference" DAC - at no signal (to gauge noise), low volume and at high volume, with different inputs, music, file types, and bit rates. You'd also have to listen to each channel individually by unplugging one of your speakers and seeing how much audible cross-talk there may be. And you have to know what to listen for on a high resolution, high accuracy, low noise system.

pay the bit extra for the deoxit with lubes. As the pure one is more for extreme cleaning, {dual cleaning lubing}. If it is the pot that should be enough.

Burr brown is used by a lot of companies quite good, my older AVR Teac pro {Tascam} used one of their top chips. Was great through any connection. Not sure what my current Anthem uses but equally as good. Check the model # of the chips as they change so quick one years top model is the next or 2nd years bottom tier.

I’m not sure of the model # of the Burr Brown in the Transformer.

Would need Ian or Andrew to confirm that information.

Thanks to all for the great info over the last month. It’s been super helpful gathering info to help make decisions. ( I haven’t bought anything yet but will be doing so over the winter. DAC and bluray / sacd player. ) I’m gonna stick with my current Yamaha receiver for now and hope to go to separates ( ADA amp hopefully) perhaps in the future. If I’m going to spend $$$ I do t think I’ll see a ton of gains in quality or SPL from another mid grade integrated amp.

I want to switch gears and ask something new. I was reading reviews ( all kinds of them , and very positive all around) on the m100. One short review ( audioholics ) described the midrange woofers on the m100v4 ( and m80v4) for that matter) as running “ full range “ with no crossover. Is this true or is there some kind of high low pass filter at least?

Do my m60ti run full range in the mid woofer?

If true, why does axiom ( Andrew and Ian ) choose time do this? Advantages ? Disadvantages?

I’ve got no opinion on this , just curious. It sounds like a departure from what’s
“ normal “ in most 3 way designs. In fact I think the midrange and mid bass is one the strengths of my m60ti.

Happy new year all and look forward to your comments as I further my understanding of this great hobby / past time.

From what I've seen on my v4, Axiom is continuing the tradition of letting the woofer response attenuate naturally on the low end rather than limiting it with filtering. Simple theory will tell you this is bad because amplifier power is being robbed to move a small driver non-linearly and it could get damaged from thermal or mechanical fatigue. In practice however, the truth is more complicated. First, the woofer remains linear for its specified range and SPL. Second, the woofer does not get damaged mechanically or thermally even at the peak specified levels. Third, adding a filter to limit low frequency behavior likely negatively impacts The Family of Curves. Fourth, such a filter would unnecessarily add cost.

I've found with any of the passives including the M100, low frequency performance improves with the addition of a sub. The actives are a different beast. For music, the addition of twin 500s fed off each DSP make no difference in my 1800 cu. ft. living room which is open to the rest of the house. The bass is absolutely a wonder and I cannot say that about any passive in the same space. The active, signal level filtering has brought out the best in all the Axiom drivers and there is nothing more one could ask for with regard to speaker response.

Thanks mojo. You’re a wealth of knowledge. I do believe what you are saying overall, otherwise we’d see a ton of destroyed mid woofers and a very poor respect for axiom speakers if the opposite were true.

My question then is, why? Or rather how?

How are the woofers not damaged mechanically or thermally? Is it a testament to build quality and tight specs ?

I agree on the family of curves being positively affected overall, that makes sense.

Additionally , if I may speculate, am I in threat ( or rather not in any threat ) of damaging my mid woofer if I push my amplifier too hard into clipping? ( which I wouldn’t do on purpose of course). But as they say,” just saying “.

I look forward to one day hearing the bass of an active lfr. That’s amazing that 500s have no discerning effect in bass response. Incredible.

Another thought, are there any other speaker makers / brands out there that make a full range naturally attenuated woofer like that ? In a 3 way setup at least?

That’s a bit of disjointed post loaded with questions but that’s what comes to mind.

Kodiak.

My old Bose 601s don't have any low frequency attenuation on the 8" woofers. But their voice coils melt long before an M3 starts sounding bad.

I would not be worried about your M60 mid under distortion. I'd be more worried about the tweeter.

As for how, it's all about the surround and spider materials and geometry,the adhesive used to couple them to the driver, the adhesive used on the voice coil, dissipating heat through the aluminum dust cap, and aluminum tweeter faceplate and cooling the voice coil hot air through vents.

Note your M60ti don't have many of the improvements above which lead to greater linearity at higher volumes and greater longevity.

My old Bose 601s don't have any low frequency attenuation on the 8" woofers. But their voice coils melt long before an M3 starts sounding bad.

I would not be worried about your M60 mid under distortion. I'd be more worried about the tweeter.

As for how, it's all about the surround and spider materials and geometry, the adhesive used to couple them to the driver, the adhesive used on the voice coil, dissipating heat through the aluminum dust cap, and aluminum tweeter faceplate and cooling the voice coil hot air through vents.

Note your M60ti don't have many of the improvements above which lead to greater linearity at higher volumes and greater longevity.

So if I’m hearing you right, then to safely and with a large margin of backup, I should ( for higher spl ) get more power in the long run.

I’d say I’m happy so far with my uninitiated ears with the quality at medium volumes. My goal is certainly trouble free enjoyment and longevity with my purchase and system overall.

I’d say it’s another tick in the column for axiom attention to detail all around. ( cost benefit and quality and not being shy to try different things. Love it. ).

You definitely can use more power in your space at your listening distance. It's actually a good thing you didn't jump to an amp right away because you'll now have a basis for comparison when you upgrade and you will appreciate upgrading even more.

Imagine a newbie, who has never even listened to a system, because say she's a student who lived at the family home with a Sonos or Bose or headphones. The first system she buys is active LFRs. How would she know it's good? So it's better to start off with a hand-me-down system and work up to appreciate goodness.

Totally. Love the logic. That makes some good sense. Over the holidays I had a listen to my “ childhood “ reference system. Paradigm monitor 9. ( single tweet with dual 8in woofer ) with a 10 inch speaker level paradigm passive sub filtering to the mains. No comparison to my m60. Not even close. Too boomy and lacked midrange reality. I think that system would sound better with that passive sub removed. The jvc that’s powering the whole thing has plenty of power to go with the high sensitivity paradigms. But I did conclude I like bass. It’s fun. My m60s do lack a bit of heft with rap hip hop and low freq effects.

I borrowed the same CD ( Santana Super Natural ) from pops and played it on the m60s. Sounded like strong cup of coffee was added to the mix and someone took the dark glasses at dusk off and turned on the lights.

So I appreciate your logic of appreciation of moving up in quality in steps. Nice one.

NowI’m trying to talk pops into some m60hpor m80 for his place. Actually m5hp would be perfect with an added outboard amp to the old passive sub. That sub really thumps.

Those Paradigms sound like my old Boses.

The midrange clarity with the addition of the mid-woofer is startling when compared to say the M3 or the M50. It would be most interesting to hear your thoughts of the M3 or M50 alongside the M60 or M5. From a fidelity/accuracy stand-point, the M3 and M50 are miles away from the M5 and the M60. However, I find I can relax better with the M3 and M50.

For hip hop and LFE, you need at least one sub no matter what passive Axiom you might have.

What's your father's listening area like and what does he listen to?

Dad likes orchestral ( think Laurenna mckennit) symphony, jazz, acoustic guitar, rock 70’s 80’s) Pink Floyd, Neil Young, occasional funk, and uncharacteristically likes the odd techno bass heavy tune. Anything Knopfler is a favorite of his. Mostly on vinyl but some on red book standard CD.

Listening space: 8 foot by 8 foot with 8 foot ceiling. But all opens to high ceiling on both sides. ( essentially he’s setup underneath the upstairs loft. ) I told him to move it into the loft. It’s a small space compared to mine. The speakers sit about 5 feet apart and listening spot is about 7 feet back. The sub is in a corner open to the high ceiling. It’s down firing. I think the high ceiling corner install makes it boomy.

I think m5hp upstairs in the loft would be exceptional. But I doubt he’s move it up there. Stubborn.

Glad to here you think all axiom passives need sub support. I agree. I like a bit of grunt and subtle thump in the low end. Sweet more research to do now!

I will say though at higher volumes there is definitely some low end wow factor. But Sometimes hip hop tech tunes need a bit of bass knob turned to 3 o clock position to give a little extra. Other than though pure direct sounds best, significantly better for all other types of music.

The M5 and M100v4 give me good low end wow factor even at lower volumes. The actives are miles ahead in that regard.

M2s with a sub may actually be better in that small space than larger speakers. Bass control is much easier with an M2/sub set-up. I'll hopefully be getting my M2s soon and can give you better guidance.

Great look forward to hearing your review. Awesome. I showed him m22 from b stock or refurb with sub ep 350 or 500? combo would be sweet in there I think.

Trying to get my brother onto the axioms too. He’s got room for some m60s / m80s or m5hps. 10 foot ceilings with a long room. 10 feet wide by 35 feet long. Speakers would have to be at 6 -8 feet apart and listening position equal distance back. So back wall would be very far away. Hmmmmmm.

Oh yeah I was going to say I’d love to hear some m3 beside my m60s. Very interesting. I did look at m50s way back years ago but never pulled the trigger. Been looking at axiom for awhile.

M5s with a sub for your brother. Active M5s would be much better.

It is interesting the idea of progression to be able to give you a standing point as to what is good. I also find it very interesting as to how speaker design has very much changed over the years and I think that was very much driven by the work at NRC with Ian (and Axiom) being part and parcel with that.

When I think back to my first "real" home stereo, not something that was bought at consumers distributing and was little more than a speaker thrown in a box. The understanding of what was going on was very much above most people. I will even say that some of that holds true to this day in some manufacturers I don't think understood the concept of reflection that really makes up the Axiom term 'family of curves'. The approach before was more of a trial by error and throw into the design to try and reduce the effects you don't want without the understanding of why they were there in the first place.

I take a look at my first set of speakers a Celestian DL6. Compared to anything else that I had heard at the time, it was the best sounding speaker that I could afford. Looking back at the process of buying these, I might as well closed my eyes and pointed because I was buying without any basis.

I went to BayBloor Radio that at the time was really well advertised as being a higher-end store..compared to the other big chain stores at the time. I went into a big room that was much wider than deep that had a row of speakers all setup in a row. Not like a listening room you'd get now, but individual pairs of speakers with its own stereo connected, one after another. So there was ZERO consideration for acoustics. The two units at either end sounded worse than the ones in the middle. It clearly was buying on what looked nice and didn't cost more than I could afford.

It wasn't until many years later that I had the same speakers in my own room that my father wanted to get some speakers for himself. He found a set of Celestian SL3 speakers used that were at a good price advertised on craigslist. The owner drove the speakers over to our house and we hooked them up to my stereo (the Nakamichi that just died) that I actually heard a remarkable improvement over what I owned. So he bought them and I was left with knowing my speakers sucked. The power of A/B done far better than what was common at the time.

One would think you'd learn, but when I got married and a better job, I bought a new set of Energy C3 speakers, not based on sound but rather many magazine reviews and they were getting cleared out on sale so the price was right. My logic was that if you can get a really good reviewed speaker for 60% off then your getting a deal. A/B side by side comparison to the Celestian showed they were far better. At around the same time the understanding of sound in speaker design started to come into the light. I listened to many speakers at different dealerships and audio shows. The sound capability was awesome, but the price was beyond my reach. Again, it can be also that exposure to sound is limited to what you can remember, driven by feelings at the time. Without a true blind A/B or at least a controlled A/B in your own environment, how can you say what is better than what?

Great thoughts Matt.
We used to have a couple guys in a van, with a bikini girl painted on both sides and front hood. They worked with one of our speaker companies here in the west. They independently went and made their own Fiberglass enclosures covered in gray almost carpeting. with 15 inch drivers and tweets. More car audio style. Also before 5.1.

They used to sell them for 150 each. We all had them hooked to old vintage receivers. even today most are still around {Built like tanks}. Before I moved in with my wife one of my roommates still had a pair. Once and a while find them and reminisce of the old van. They lived a couple blocks away from one of my childhood homes. Would make for a great A/B with current technologies.

Back in our university years it was common to hear about the 'white van' speakers.
Cheap rip off artists selling slapped together drivers in a cheap wood box for $300 out of the back of white rented vans. Probably cost them $40 a pair or less.
A former roomate bought a pair but only through haggling when he told them he could only withdraw a max of $100 from his bank account per day because of his student account.
I think he still has the speakers.

Chess, I'm not sure if Advance Audio/Video is still on Portage and Valour. They were a logistics warehouse for white van guys.

I don't know that much has changed, as the "higher end" stores still have these types of rooms. Some have more focused rooms, and will accommodate making changes...if you look serious about purchasing.

An interestingly different approach has been Linn. They pride themselves on having a single set of speakers in any room that is actively demonstrating speakers. Their rationale is that any other speakers in the room will colour the demonstration.

The Linn approach will also make it impossible to do an A/B with other speakers.

In the meantime, here is a partial list of other sound coloring objects:

1. Walls
2. Floor
3. Ceiling
4. Carpet
5. Windows
6. Furniture
7. Turntable
8. Electronics
9. People
10. Curtains
11. Pillows
12. Knick knacks
13. Ducts

The concept that another pair of speakers will "color" sound is nothing more than a mantra to allow the salesperson to control the narrative.

"Notice the detail ... look how deep and wide the soundstage is ... bass you can almost feel ..."

The list is endless.

"Notice the detail ... look how deep and wide the soundstage is ... bass you can almost feel ..."

I avoid pointing out anything to listeners. Many newbies say "Yeah...so...what should I be listening for?" Other newbies pick up on the obvious audible benefits of my systems. So for many I have to point out what to listen for.

I don't know Linn so I can't say it's evil. Certainly if you take any speaker and butt it up against another so any of the drivers are in an acoustic shadow, that other will be limited in off-axis performance. Limitations also apply to one set of speakers being situated wider or narrower than the other, closer to room boundaries, etc. The other sound coloring objects referenced are natural occurrences in a room but flanking speakers are not...unless you're at Mojo's.

Hello all. Long time no forum for me. Just saying hi. Crazy times worldwide. Well, work is officially over and I’m at home again for the foreseeable future.....so I guess I’ll listen to my music and stereo setup again. ( I work away from home for extended periods so I haven’t really listened to my m60s since New Years!)

I’d like to keep the upgrades going but doing it cheaply. I’m going to get some new thicker speaker cables. I’m thinking I might just order the axiom bulk cable. Any body use it or can recommend another brand or source? Any reason to go thicker than 12 awg? 10 awg? Double the 12 gauge to get 9 gauge? I’m thinking of doing banana plugs too, mostly for a cleaner look. My runs are im thinking, about 10 feet per side at max to allow for experimenting and moving of speakers. Should I get enough cable to do bi wiring? ( can’t say I really think this would make a difference? Maybe?) Thoughts?

Would love to hear any and all opinions on possible tangible sound improvements with the various options out there. I’m looking forward to some low cost but fun experimenting and listening fun to weather these uncertain financial times. Might get some port plugs too just to play around with. Just for kicks. Or maybe I’ll just jam some thick socks in there instead!

Good health to you all and happy listening to all.
Cheers, Kodiak.

Now that I’m out of business I should write a new post that teaches how we set up speakers for jobs using lasers....

Don’t worry we left with money in the bank. We didnt suck! Lol.

For cable I would suggest only going to the gauge size you need. For residential lengths I recommend 16/4 in star quad configuration.

I just dropped $350 on a 300m roll of Belden 5322UL 18/4 that I intend on re-pulling to turn my three ways active. I had belden 10/2 in place that will go to 8” woofer duty now.

Really big fan and believer in star quad assembly in cables. It’s cheap and seems special somehow....

Star Quad affect demonstration: https://youtu.be/9ckp5CYBBjE

Best sound I’ve had was with 18/4 solid core thin wall polyeflin fire alarm cable..... Google FAS or Securex. It is 18/4 solid core perfect for star quad termination. Cheap as dirt at electrical wholsalers.

Thanks From the Deep. I’ll give star quad a read / listen on you tube.

Is there any danger or loss of signal quality if I go a thicker gauge then necessary? 12 gauge copper wire from axiom should be fine for example.

I’ll read up on star quad and see if I can understand the benefits.

Thanks.

Yep, the Axiom cable is fine.

I just fluked out on finding star quad because I took home scrap wire from work to use as speaker cable after pulling a fire alarm system in a sport check. A single conductor of a gauge is three sizes larger when paralleled. Ie. 18AWG+18AWG= 15AWG with magnetic cancellation in star quad. Found out about what I stumbled into after.

RANT:
Turns out they can potentially make a difference. Is it audible? Depends. MUCH bigger things to focus on first. In my room 1/2 a db is very audible when tuning. The absolutists in both camps maybe haven’t read all the books or built (several) scratch rooms to find out like some have. Sometimes I read posts online and wonder.... I think they misinterpret the science to suit their opinion, rather than understanding real science has no opinion.

Wait! Did he just say he knows better?! Yes, he did. JohnK used to piss me off.

Heavier gauge cables have lower resistance but also generally higher capacitance. I’m not convinced that although resistance does decrease power to the load that inductance and capacitance aren’t also important to minimize. VFD drives dont work properly when this isnt taken into consideration.... They arent so different from modern amps.

Again, I wouldn’t go nuts. Just size the cable to your amp. Driving 500watts or less #12. Ignore the length guidelines.... It’s residential..... How much power are you planning to send. Start there.

The company I work for wired the sound system at Confederation place in Charlottetown. Did the rigging and analog dimming array too. #10 was as big as they went on runs 300’ . Huge and expensive amplifiers from L-Acoustics that dummy consumer products. I was hands on there personally. Neat stuff. Seen Stephen Page with Orchestra there recently. Nuts good sound.

No need to overdo.

I just upgraded my cables for the actives.

All speakers, cables, receivers, sources sound the same. They all make noise.

- JohnK -

I hope your kidding mojo.......!
Interesting looking cable though.

Well I won’t be going bigger than 500 watts so 12 gauge will do fine. Thanks. I don’t think I’m gonna over think the speaker wire too much. Thanks for the star quad info though. Interesting.

Ok here is a question.....I’m still “ shopping” for a new power source / amps. Not in a rush but always looking.

I’ve done a ton of reading and video reviews. Sooooo many options. I’ve read about the Crown xls series as a economical pre amp separates setup. The schiit vidar mono blocks keeping it class a/b , or Outlaw class d mono or stereo outboard....Monolith....Emotiva......sort of economical....

I found the Outlaw RR2160 which looks really well connected feature laden and good power and can operate as a pre with 2 subwoofer outs as well along with co ax and optical rca and bass management too. Lots of room for future connections and growing with sources and subs. I digress.....

So the question, if I did buy a rr2160 ( or any integrated with pre out puts) can I in the future add outboard amps to the pre outs and have them run my woofers and use the inboard amps of the integrated to run the midrange and tweeter section. ? So using the on-board and out board amps at same time in a horizontal passive bi amped set up. Or does using the pre out connections disconnect the on-board integrated amps?

Then I could have class d running my woofers and class ab running my mid range and tweet. The crowns or outlaw outboards would work bc you could gain match to the integrated with their dials. If I’m understanding how these components work in reality.

Bit of a long wordy post but just brainstorming with thought experiment. Lots of time to sit and think and ponder things these days. Interesting new forum format. It’s growing on me. Cheers all.

Both my Onk and Pioneer allow me to run the amps and pre-outs simultaneously. I don't know if the Outlaw functions the same way.

Are you still about 17 feet back? Are you running subs with your Yammy?

Yes, you can do that. Or this and done.

Pre:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd

Amp:

QSC GXD8

Thanks FTD I’ll check those out, more researching. Love it.
Mojo, no subs, yet, but I want to augment the system with dual subs in stereo with proper left and right channels. Thinking 2x EP125 or EP 175. Not sure yet. I almost pulled the trigger on 2 Polk audio 108subs but resisted. ( 100$ each).

I still haven’t tried my alternate wall position yet. Once I get new speaker wire I’ll do that when I pull out the old wire. So, yes I’m still in the 17 feet back position, m60s are toed in ever so slightly and are sitting just out of corners 14.5 feet apart but close the walls. Without Pure Direct on it’s too boomy in corners. Pure Direct gives best performance and cleans it all up, clear and musical. And recording quality REALLY matters. I’ve found pre made playlists on Spotify of quality recordings and they really are good, I get good bass from those in Pure Direct. That’s where I found the Nils Lofgren the other day.

Ep125 and 175 won't cut it. For music, you need two 500s up front in your space. Not sure how you can feed each with their respective low level signals. I have dual DSPs with the LFRs to feed my 500s and the 800 for the .1 channel. For the M2OW, I use the Pioneer pre-outs to feed my upstairs dual subs. Never going back to a single sub again.

Does your pioneer have dual lfe out? Or are they daisy chained? Pluses or minuses of either feed set up?

I read, somewhere recently while researching stereo subs, that using high level input off my receivers a/b switch is a way to feed each sub. One off B to the left the other off B to right. Use the on-board amp in subs to match volume with my Yamaha / mains on A. M60s run full range with no pass filter then. The draw from the sub would minimal on the Yamaha. I think that would work.

I like the idea of letting the m60s run full range to their potential versus “ relieving” them of low frequency duty.

I could be wrong of course. I’ve never done it so it’s all hypothetical.

Also my space is big but not that big. I’ll try and sketch a layout with dimensions and attach it here. Maybe it’s bigger than I’m thinking compared to others space? Not sure. It’s an open 700 square feet including my kitchen that has a pass thru to living room and dining room. I’ll draw it up. You’ll see.

Oh yeah , was gonna say , by going each channel separate one left and one right it keeps it stereo specific to each channel for the subs versus the mono of all the frequencies or lfe going to both subs. Like adding a 10 inch low range woofer you your tower/array.

My Pioneer is a straight 2-channel receiver. No sub out. I am using its pre-outs to feed my subs. Left pre-out to left sub and right pre-out to right sub. I feed the M2OW off the Pioneer's built-in amp. 70W/channel into 4 Ohms, I sit 12 feet away and come nowhere close to maxing it out even at rocking SPLs.

Running speakers full range is not all it's cracked up to be. It really depends on the speakers, the room and how far away you sit. When I had the active LFRs in my 1900 cu.ft. living room, I ran them full range and it was magic. No other Axiom could do that except the M2; and the M2 wasn't magical down low but at least it wasn't offensive. All others interacted with my room real bad down low and had to be crossed over to a sub at around 80Hz. When I moved the actives into my 4200 cu.ft. main room, the magic down low was lost comparatively speaking. They were still far better than the M100. But that's where the twin 500s took over. Right at 40Hz.

You'd be surprised what smaller Axiom speakers can do. Anyone who can sit 12 feet or less to their speakers, is safe with M2s and one or two good subs. In fact, I've found for that distance, the M2 images better than larger speakers with more drivers. I used to tease TAM about his M2s with twin 800s and shame on me. I've discovered for myself he was right. The M2OW in my living room have changed my life.

Sending low frequencies to sealed subs is much better for a variety of reasons. Plan for this long term.

Watch and Subscribe to this guys. Incredible technical information and presentation in his videos.
HexiBase
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-AGcpEVUnQ

I recommended the mini DSP because it ticks your boxes and has Dirac. Dirac allows you to tailor the response of your system custom for your room, and does time alignment. It is NOT like other room EQ routines out there.

The GXD8 amp can be cycled out later to drive literally anything. It is great value for what it has on board. I am looking to hear one myself. Hiss can be a problem with pro amps. This one is supposedly very quiet.

Thought this might be the appropriate place to comment on the Axiom Transformer now that I've added it into my system and have been listening to it sporadically for about a week or so. I can hear way more detail now when listening to Tidal and Spotify via it's DAC. Really incredible. I haven't tried the optical via a cd transport yet but will try that soon. I've mostly listened to low to medium volumes. The oppurtunity to crank it up hasn't presented itself yet.

I've noticed that when using Tidal I can only achieve 24bit/44khz over the wireless. I think to acheieve the 24bit/192khz i need to be using the usb connection. On Spotify I get 16bit/44khz ( or so it says with in the Axiom App. Does Spotify play files that high of resolution? I kinda thought not but maybe im wrong?

Anyway the Axiom App is reasonable and im sure im not using it too it's full potential yet. I wish there was a way to re-order things when you search for them. IE Web Radio always comes up first and is usually a huge list, so i need to scroll way down to the bottom to get to the Artist list. I really like seeing the bit/hz count though as i move around the different files types. But again, it really comes down to the best recorded stuff and mastered stuff versus the highest bit rate and sample frequency.

Over all i'd say the Axiom Transformer is more than worth it. Its a great addition to my system without having to pony up big dollars for a whole new integrated to gain the modern functionality. I also like the idea that my reciever is remains analog only, how much that really matters i can't say but the concept makes sense to me. The Transformer also sets up for future upgrades in pre amp or outboard amps / seperates.

Tidal streams in 16/44.1 except for some MQA tracks in 24/96 with the more costly membership.

I suspect these MQA tracks are mastered with the same dynamic range as a 16 bit track. The only place where a listener can take full advantage of 16 bit dynamic range is in a noiseless environment like an anechoic chamber. And with a true 24 bit resolution, their cochleas would be bleeding.

Yes, the Transformer like other units, has a 24-bit A/D and DAC. But just because both process 24 bits doesn't mean you get a full 144dB dynamic range. At least 7 of those extra bits are padded with zeros. Noise is a killer.

Hi Kodiak

I haven't read every post in this thread, so you may already have said whether or not you have the Tidal HiFi subscription ($19.99USD/mo) which gives you access to hi res and MQA music files.

I like it.

Tidal HIFI. That’s what I got. It plays at 24/44.1.

I like it too.

I’m trying to find an easy way to port all my playlists too. Looks like some transfer tools exist.

According to Tidal, HiFi is 16/44.1 except for MQA tracks. Even with MQA, it's not clear to me what level of MQA support is built into streamers that "support" MQA.

https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-What-Audio-Quality-Does-TIDAL-HiFi-Offer-

Learned a lot from this thread. Amazing.

I enjoy my M2v4s a lot. Sometimes I may want to sit back further to focus on music only because I am distracting by the great imaging. LOL.

Did anyone have compared it with other speakers side by side? For example I just read a lot of rave reviews about KEF LS50. Could $500 compete with $1500?

This effect of being distracted by the level of detail in all the Axioms with dedicated mid-ranges is something I've written about. The M3 and M50 don't distract with their woofer covering the lows and mids. They are very easy to relax with.

Just like going to the concert and sitting right in front of the band and keep noticing how each instrument is singing.

Live venues I've been to fall into two categories. One is very diffuse sound with no ability to pick out images. Rock concerts are like that. The other is very clear separation in images. More intimate settings with acoustic instruments and singers with no mics are like that.

With the v4, the nature of the performance changes depending on how far you listen from them and how widely they're placed. The room of course plays a big role. If you sit up close, like you are, the room can play less of a role particularly if it's bigger. If you sit further back in the diffuse field like me, the room plays a bigger role.

They're both good and it's a matter of preference. It may not be wrong to say that the closer you decide to sit, the smaller your speaker ought to be. That way it can acoustically disappear.

I’ve read a ton of reviews and watched video reviews of LS 50 and LS50 Meta. So much so I want to hear them now just to see what the hype is. Same as the Klipsch rp600. I want to hear em to see if the hype is true or just hype.

The LS50 meta and M2v4 bookshelves are very close. I didn't compare with the M2OWv4.

The M2 can go louder before distortion becomes objectionable and is more satisfying down low. The LS50 does better than the M2 closer to the front wall. With a sub at 80 Hz, that boundary doesn't matter for bass. The conventional wisdom is to use a port plug but I find the smaller Axioms sound congested with plugs. The M100 is OK unless all its ports are stuffed. The actives don't need any port stuffing which I still can't figure out how that was accomplished. Boundaries don't seem to matter.

The LS50 meta has sharper imaging but I couldn't decide if that was more satisfying or not. It's like using a centre with active LFRs. The image is more focused but that doesn't sound as natural to me as a bit more diffuse. I don't know which is more faithful to the source recording but I know I enjoy more diffuse but not fuzzy imaging.

I like the midrange on the M2 better but others liked the LS50 meta's better.

Both speakers acoustically disappear and both present the same width with more depth going to the LS50 meta. The M2 can go wider when turned up. At that point, the LS50 metas are getting pushed too much. I should point out that to get the M2 to completely disappear and get total stage holography, I had to drop the tweeter about 6". That did not detract from anything.

I don't know about the Klipsch.

This is a great comparison which answered my question. I knew that a lot of cost goes to the sales channel and advertisement for LS50 and you could save a lot when going with direct Internet vendor like Axiom. I just don't realize how much we save vs. how much we get until we do a side by side blind test.

I think you know this but I'll say it anyway. Price can't be used to compare speaker performance. A competent speaker designer, with appropriate engineering tools at his/her disposal, can make more enjoyable speakers with bottom of the barrel parts than a poor designer with great parts who does nothing more than back of the envelope calculations. The amount of time the design team is given and the design budget of course also matters and so does manufacturing capability.

Another aspect of price is expected sales volume. What do I have to price my speaker at to sell a particular volume and how does that inform the material cost and R&D budget I can support for that design in order to extract a profit?

Corporate objectives also matter. I can sure as shit tell you Ian's objectives are different than KEFs. Ian does stuff because he wants to and can. KEF, Harman, Klipsch and the big brands agonize over whether a particular idea ought to be brought to market because they want to bet right and that includes price and getting quick payback. I totally doubt Ian thinks about payback.

Well said!

Figured i'd add this current observation here, as it sort of relates to my thread i created way back at the beginning...

Axiom Transformer: I still really like this piece and the DAC too. I did a very quick comparison over a weekend, although not A/B, of the Axiom DAC to a Schiit Modi and preferred the Axiom. The Schiit Modi is good but the Axiom DAC semed more " clear " and the treble sounded better / smoother, especially at high volume than the Modi. Although i will admit I have a major bias to the Axiom DAC as that is what i've been listening to exclusively. But there is a tangible difference in the sound. I wan't thinking it would be a diference at all really. But I digress, my main post is below, read on...

So I directly connected the Axiom Transformer to the "main in" power on my HK 505, thus bypassing the HK internal pre amp. The HK is on loan from my brother as we are doing some experimentation with his treble response of his speakers described in another thread elsewhere...

Anyway, with the Transformer set up as a direct pre amp and feeding just the power section of the HK inegrated (it's a dual mono setup) it sounds incredible to me. It's actually quite shocking how good it is. For the first time, with ease, i get a soundstage that goes properly beyond the outside of the speakers by a real amount with a majority of recordings. It's astonishing! The seperation is way better, the image is clean and things have more space. I've never experienced that before with that amount of space of each individual instrument. The depth was also increased and easy to achieve with most songs i listened too. The off axis perforance is also improved! My head does not need to stay locked into position. I can move around, not a ton of movement, but the image allows more movement before disappearing! Truly a revelation, these dam speakers are amazing!

I purposefully selected recordings i know to be good quality. I should add, the source was Spotify running via the Spotify Connect feature from my phone. The transformer was getting the Spotify feed from wi-fi not over airplay. I remained astonished. This begs the next obvious question, how much better would this sound with better amplifers? Or an even better pre amp? The less proverbial "clutter" in the signal chain the better I think. I've always read that and know that but never been able to try it.

So, this may be normal for some of you, but i was truly amazed at this simple step of how the chain of signal is setup / distributed made so much difference. Seperating the pre-amp and amp really does matter, in my case anyway. Not sure im going to be able to go back to my Yamaha when i give back the HK to my brother.

I think this is a testament to the quality of the Axiom Transformer used a dedicated pre amp.

One caveat, with the Transformer I have had a few times that the user interface was not responding and the volume control become non intuitive. This only happened when in the app directly and has never been an issue when controlling from within the Spotify Connect via my phone. This could be disastorous when using as a direct preamp. Normally i've got it fed into the receiver into one of the regular single ended inputs and can use the volume knob on the reciever to " limit " the amount of output or fine tune the " gain ", so to speak.

Another point is the gain structure was different too when using Transformer as a Pre amp directly. I use the " single step " setting and have the attenuation set to " natural" vs the " linear " option. So when using my phone to single step my volume up i reached about 75-80% of the available gain before stopping. I could have gone higher and will try that later today but I feel like the gain wasn't allowing me to access all the power of the amplifier.....is this possible if the gain / (voltage?) structure isn't the same or close enough of the pre amp and amp? I hope that makes some sense to y'all.

Bottom line, it was a fun and exciting experiment and resulted in a marked improvement in my system. Even the bass, that as of late has been emotionally lacking impact with in my new large space, was improved and the overall sense and feel of the whole range was improved and brought out a bit more of the impact ive been missing. It's still not enough for the giant room im in but it was remarkable. I should give it a try in my bedroom and see how it sounds before returning the HK to my brother.

I wish i could instantly A/B this in real time to prove it. I swear im sober and actually heard these things, it was not placebo. Looking forward to my next listening session this evening!

A heckuva post.
I thought i was one of the rare few that wrote books in here.

The hardest thing about doing /setting up an A/B test is getting all the variables under control. As much as we think and try to tell ourselves that we won't have bias, there will always be something. For example, if the SPL output is not virtually identical between the two units being played back, then even with an A/B switch you will notice a difference that you might attribute to being the 'better' unit when the reason could come back to something as simple as a difference in signal to gain ratios for the units.
It is less distinct a factor to put your finger on compared to amps, but provides a huge difference, when comparing speakers that have different efficiencies.

Ultimately since so few people have the means to do true A/B testing, you have to use whatever method you have to try and ascertain a difference. It is the primary reason that drives audio myths, though in part unintentionally because of the limitations people have. Some wouldn't choose to use a controlled method though even if they were offered. It would destroy too much of the 'magic' for them.