As I've indicated in my other posts, I'm in the process of defining a music listening room. The electronics I'm considering are the upcoming Arcam AVR 300, which is a 7x100 channel receiver. If one is running a 5.1 system, two of the channels can be combined to bi-amp the speakers, which I understand is a good thing. I have been paying attention to Alans replies to me, and this give me the options of starting with high quality stereo, but allow me to upgrade to surround audio later without losing anything-a nice 'eat my cake and have it too'.

Having three free high quality amp channels opens up some interesting subwoofer possiblities. From what I've been reading, two subs are preferable for the best music reproduction, but rather expensive. However, I could get 2 unpowered subs for about the same money as one high quality powered one, such as the REL Strata, to explore that option.

Anyone ever explored this? HSU makes the unpowered TN-1220HO which claims a FR of +/- 1db from 18-100 HZ, which should be quite musical. I could have two of these for about a grand. Of course, I could also have 2 VTF-2's for about the same price, and I'm not sure that flat to 1 db vs. flat to 2 db would make any practical difference in my enjoyment of the music.

Any ideas for subwoofers for a music only system?

EAR,
I do not know how you are quantifying "high quality" sub vs. another although it sounds to me like you are equating $ to quality.
If anything i've come to know about audio, that equation does not hold true so be wary of thinking one higher priced sub will be better than a lower priced one.

That being said, even for music, i do not like using a sub at all. I have never found any subs to be 'musical' and i only use mine for notes below 50Hz (the approximate crossover setting at present). I much prefer the tight, more accurate bass reproduction from the smaller 6.5" drivers of my M60s but of course, they cannot hit the low notes required by organ music. I find anything above 50-70Hz played by a larger subwoofer driver sounds far more muddled and notes get meshed together. Out of the subs i've heard to date, the Axiom EP350 was the most accurate sounding but to be fair, i have not yet head the SVS or Hsu offerings. Hopefully soon SVS will be on that list.

Hi,

Sorry to give that impression, I like to follow the detail in a ContraBass line in a good jazz recording, or be able to hear the timbre differences between the drums in a Taiko recording... for example. This requires tight accurate bass.

A number of years ago, I had one of the original Cambridge Soundworks SubWoofer II's, it was an acoustic suspension eight inch driver, driven by a moderate amp (either 75 or 100 watts). It was designed before HT became popular, and was extremely musical. It matched with my AR speakers seamlessly, so when I was listening to music, one was simply unaware that the bass was being augemented, unless one flipped the subs power switch, then the soundstage would completely collapse quite dramaticly. Unfortunatlely, it wasn't 'slamming' and was not appropraite in any way for HT, so they no longer make it. But, I've heard what a musical sub can do!!

I'm sorry I gave the impression that I equate money with quality, I'm looking hard at the HSU products and am here at the Axiom forum, so that can't be entirely true. Due to some fortunate circumstances, I can set up a system optimized for listening to music with fewer financial restraints than I'm used to- the purpose of my posting here is to try to get an idea of 'bang for buck', and the best 'no compromise' system that would make sense, and not just be buying expensive 'name' speakers for the heck of it- that is, I'd really like to get $20,000 worth of audio performance for .. oh say.. under $5,000. If that makes any sense.

EAR, you might be interested to see this poll i posted some time ago.

Great poll! I completely agree with your premise, that there is "point of absurdity", and one of the things I'm trying to do with these online conversations, is to get some ideas of where that might be. I've already figured that $100,000 for a pair of stereo speakers is probably well past that line!

I've also been auditioning stuff, and have heard some fairly amazing things, like having the rear wall fall away and the soundstage more than double in size and reach out to envelop me... listening to 2 channel stereo only! SO much so, that I accused the sales dude of pulling a fast one, and I got up and walked over to the surround speakers, nope, they were off! THAT'S what I want. BTw- that was with an Arcam AVR 200 receiver driving Linn Ninka speakers- though there were other things about the linns I didn't like.

I've not been lucky enough to hear the Hsu 1220HO, but I know Curtis has, and once he heard them, they instantly became his "dream" sub. I'm sure a pair of them would work extemely well. Though you'd need to check with Dr. Hsu if powering them with your receiver's built-in amps is recommended.

Good luck, you lucky dog!

I've heard a pair of those subs as well. They were standing right next to each other in the corner of the room, powered by external amps. Their ability to truly pressurize the room was astounding. You know when you're on the freeway (Not a freeway in LA, as you need to be moving...) and you roll down only one window, how the air rushes in and causes fluctuating pressure? Well, on one particular 17Hz organ note, that's what the room felt like. It's like the air turned to liquid and was pushing against all my internal organs. WOW.

I would highly recommend purchasing dedicated amps for those baddies. I don't think any receiver's amp could really do them justice.

Hi,

I emailed Dr. Hsu, and to my surprise, he replied, and has been extremely helpful. No, my amp won't power them. They are designed with music in mind. He sells a package of two with the 500 watt amp for under $1,700- which is just about what I'd pay for a REL Storm III.... looks like a true 'no brainer'.

{wipes puddled drool off keyboard}

Yep. That sounds like that'll work.

When is the Forum Member Listening Party? I'll bring thyme-crusted pork tenderloin in gorgonzola cream sauce, if that would help.

I heard a Rel once. It blew me away when playing a track from Dead Can Dance. Truly pressurized the room. Quite an impressive experience. Then I threw in a Prince CD. Prince is far from fast techno...but that poor little (err...BIG) Rel couldn't keep up. Slow, sloppy bass. That bad boy cost like $3000!

The Hsu's do indeed seem like no brainers if you've got the room for them.

Count me in, too! I make a mean mulligatawny that we can serve as an appetizer.

"When is the Forum Member Listening Party? I'll bring thyme-crusted pork tenderloin in gorgonzola cream sauce, if that would help. "

Ha, I cook as a hobby also- in fact the music room will be the family room that's a step-down from the kitchen. Well, I've got a pretty good idea for the electronics and subs, now the mains....see that posting. With those 2 subs being flat to over 100 hz, it would seem that towers would be massive overkill- so I guess I'm looking for super clean, tight reference monitor bookshelves.

Actually, don't count towers out quite yet-

(There was a discussion about this on the HSU forum a while back, worth checking out)

I'm a bit hesitant to try to summarize the reasons to get towers even with a pair of great subs, but I know they exist in at least some folks' minds. Anyone else want to take a shot at it?

Homina homina homina. That sounds freakin' amazing!! You're really going to like this setup. I do question the biamping, but hey, if you've got the capacity, why the heck not?

I must also suggest again that you listen to some Magnepans. (MG12 is the one I really liked, although I don't think I've listened to anything in their range more expensive).

Hey, as shopping is half the fun, and this is a 'once in a lifetime' sort of opportunity- sure I'll check out the Maggies. I understand their sound is different from electrostats.

I have heard ElectroStats, and in fact, once spent a long evening with an audiophile friend of a friend, who had a major set (don't remember the brand), on those, did come to the conclusion that I didn't all that much care for that sound.

Re the bi-amping, if I end up with Reference Monitors, I won't need to......no woofers. Right now I'm soaking up ideas, and letting you guys help me stir ;-)

And if you don't get towers, you can maybe solve that center channel problem with the fireplace more easily.

I'm with Ken; with price as no object and twin Hsu tubes, I'd seriously consider some Magnepans.

And I'd agree that discounting tower speakers because of the subs might be premature. You've still got an awfully big room there.

Thank you for sharing your adventure with us!

EA, just following up on chess's point, I remember that I had a hard time getting up above $1,000 in his poll. I've definitely found very little correlation between price and sound quality in audio. A $1,000 pair of speakers can certainly sound better than a $10,000 pair although they won't be finished as nicely, and you're already at the right place for that $1,000 pair.

JohnK

I agree. About 25 years ago I sold stereo equip, alas not in a high end store. I always urged my customers not to pay for differences they couldn't hear, and use the difference to buy more music. BTW You'd think that might be a poor sales tactic, but I was the top selling guy by far- turns out that customers respond well to a 'no BS' approach.

"turns out that customers respond well to a 'no BS' approach."

'tis true! 'tis true! The more high pressure (or, for that mattter, disinterested) sales tactics I get, the faster I run away. And if a salesperson should actually tell me (gasp!) "not to pay for differences I couldn't hear, and use the difference to buy more music," I would follow them around like a puppy. It's no wonder you were "top selling guy by far."

I marvel that more salepeople don't understand that honesty creates a satisfied customer who returns and, in the long run, spends more money than the customer "pressured" into a big sale who ends up dissatisfied.

Aw Shucks.....

Though it has made me a better customer. One of the most offensive questions a sales dude can open with, for me, is "how much do you want to spend". I always opened with "What kind of music do you like to listen to". Then, the way I'd approach the money question, after a couple of minutes of chatting about music was with, " well, I can show you some stuff that you'd really like at all kinds of prices, but no sense falling in love with something that breaks the bank, so......."

Anyway, these online conversations have been very helpful to me, and I'm refining my music room ideas- in directions, I hadn't first considered, so Thanks you all!

There should be more salesguys like you. They'd get a lot more business out of me.

I hate the way they walk up to you and ask if they can help you when you're just looking. It always makes me feel like I shouldn't be there. Then they are nowhere to be found when you actually need help. But I suppose that's not really their fault.

I should mention that was 25 years ago, though the lessons I learned have stood me well.