wow i had no idea speaker cable could make such a big difference. i was using some crappy 16 guage wire i found from my parents 15 year old stereo system and then i bought some of axiom's 12 gauge stuff. actually made a difference i as pleasantly suprised
go buy some 12 or 14 gauge .30 cents a foot speaker wire from home depot, and i bet it will sound just the same..
fun, cheap experiement.. get a friend to help you do a blind test.. dont let your mind tell you something that your ears dont hear.. in a fair and unbiased comparison, i bet they are almost identical!
bigjohn
Oh i don't doubt they would sound the same, but the axiom ones definitly do sound better then the old crappy cables i had.
Your old cables probably had a good build up of oxidation on the ends, which made them sound poor.
If you have not thrown them out yet, trim them down to fresh ends, and then give them a try.
loose- i swear we are not trying to attack you.. there are just a bunch of us that dont believe or buy into the whole 'monster cable myth'..
i, and others, feel that the industry has mislead us to believe that a high dollar speaker cable can carry a signal better than a regular cheap ole cable from radio shack.. its just not true.. under strict testing conditions, most cables perform very evenly.
but, rest assured.. those axiom cables will still look and perform just as good in 20 years as they do today..
bigjohn
say it with us, placebo
I have used the "infamous" Monster cables for years.....I have found the different models boost the bass line a bit. I KNOW they are a bit more $$$, than the tiny wires some of the more "PARSIMONIOUS" posters here champion, but with the same ears that can "hear" the superior Axiom speaker sound, I can also hear the "subtle" improvement from better speaker cables. Think of it as garden hose v/s fire hose....
more is better...keep the length as short as possible for
l&r channels, and use gold connectors. Axiom is selling similar type cables for a reason,........they are better.
Hey, you calling me cheap?!
Hehe. I think that is the nicest "I disagree with you about cables and I think they make a difference" post I have seen anywhere ever on any board>
jr
The garden hose vs. fire hose is actually a bad analogy.
If you hooked up a fire hose to a standard garden spigot, you'd get the same amount of water coming out the other end as if you used a standard garden hose.
If a hose's diameter (like a wire's gauge) meets the minimum requirements for preventing loss of pressure (signal), anything greater is unnecessary. Even 2x6 will tell you this since he loves his very thin Mapleshade speaker cables.
Peter - I understand what you are trying to say. You can't get anymore "water" out of your system, and bigger "hoses" aren't going to increase "pressure/output."
But couldn't you go one step further and even say that a garden hose is the BEST kind of hose to use for gardening and that a fire hose is both cumbersome, sloppy, overkill, etc? Consider watering your plants with a fire hose using garden hose pressure. You wouldn't be able to really water all that well at all. You might even lose enough pressure in the pipe to prevent the water from coming out with even adequate pressure, let alone better pressure.
Now, I know that water and electricity behave differently, but I've heard the "bigger pipes" analogy used a lot to pursuade people to buy thicker cable - implying you can get more electricity/water through them. I've never heard it used in the opposite fashion - (i.e. you've squeezed all the water you can squeeze out of your system by using smaller wire - why waste your money on "pipe" you don't need)....good one!
actually you guys need to go back to physics
a firehose would be better then a garden hose if your goal is to have as much water come out in the shortest amount of time. small hose = large resistence. large hose = low resistence, in terms of wires, large wire = less resistence = less energy converted to heat = stronger signal. i have a test for the people who claim that cables don't work well. take some speaker wire, extract just one copper wire from that speaker cable. hook that up to your speakers, compare to the speaker cable as whole. us science majors think extremes you should too
I see a post from JohnK coming in the near future.
Wid, your wish is my command. I didn't think that this thread was going to need much more in the way of replies, since Curtis made a reasonable suggestion to explain why there might have been an audible difference when the wires were changed. There's no way that 16ga and 12ga wires, each in good condition, would audibly change the sound if these were typical length runs of 10' or so to main speakers. Irrelevant analogies to water hoses aren't helpful and neither is the suggestion to take one strand of wire(typically of 36ga or so)and see if it makes a difference. This area holds no technological mysteries and it's apparently time to again cite the the explanation
here of a well-respected veteran audio professional.
Oh. isn't it fun to start an age old and many times rehashed argument like new again. It's much more fun than discussing our views on MIchael Moore - and more on point.
Keep 'em coming. I think that this is one of the more fascinating topics on the boards - In fact - not believing that bigger speaker wire will actually help my sound, I nonetheless bought 12 guage wire to hook up my system.
Loose,
I was an astrophysics major at one point -- though I didn't graduate with a degree in it -- so being a scientist gets you no points here. A firehose will get you no more flow than a garden hose. Want to know why? Because a garden hose is more or less the same diameter as the pipe leading to the spigot. With a fire hose attached, the water won't suddenly speed up.
So can we drop the water analogy now? They really have nothing to do with one another.
And as a science major, you should be at least loosely familiar with some engineering methodology. Calculate the necessary materials to get the job done, and then use something slightly better.
Let me throw a curve into this. I take a decent 12g or 14g wire and replace it with the newest audio craze, Silver. Will there be a change? All I hear about now is Silver this and Silver that and freezing cables. I have no clue here but Silver is a great conductor and thus there must be something to it.....or is there?
Copper's a great conductor, too! Frankly, the resistance is so small in any given cable of, say (arbitrarily) 16 ga or less, for distances normally used in home theatre, it really doesn't make a difference.
John, it's true that silver has the best electrical conductivity of the metals, but copper is second and as the table
here shows, the difference is negligible in comparison to other metals. A 25 foot copper wire would have the same resistance as about a 27 foot silver wire. Copper is a nearly ideal relatively low cost electrical conductor, so silver wire makes no sense for home audio. Cryogenic treatment is pure hogwash. Incidentally, since the topic has come up, my undergraduate degree is a B.S. in Chemistry, although these days anything much more complicated than H3 O(or whatever they call that stuff)is beyond me. Still, I had enough of the scientific method pounded into me to be able to recognize and not be able to tolerate the charlatans in audio who prey on the gullible.
Yeah I thought so. Dam these Marketing guys!
Well, on a flyer, I hooked the speakers up with fire hose. Didin't seem to improve the sound at all. I think it may improve (wait for it) once the fire hose breaks in. I will say it is damn convenient putting out the fire in the fireplace with my M60.
So, do the gorilla ports work well in optimizing the water flow?
Ah! Wonderfully funny visual imagery!
so. lets just say that speaker wires don't make a difference and the increased sonic quality i am hearing is due to the placebo affect. I still think it sounds better, makes me happier because i think it sounds better, so well either way i win
for the happinness i feel i would gladly pay the 20 bucks i paid
Loose, two very valid reasons for purchasing anything are because I want it, and because I like it. No other explanations are necessary. I have several items in my setup that probably don't make much difference in what comes out of my speakers. They give me pleasure, and they give me peace of mind. Who can say that I'm wrong?
I complety agree with Ajax,I have ALOT more in cables and speaker wire than what any sane person would.I'm not to sure if it makes a sonic differance but I sure like them.
They are all Axiom except one pair of Outlaw cables.
Loose - Ajax nailed it. Go with whatever makes you happy.
Ajax, I can say you're wrong, but whether or not I'm right is up for debate.
You're such a troublemaker, Peter.
Try these:
Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus Really Weird Thin Speaker Cable - Does it make a difference? ABSOLUTELY! Is the difference for the better? ABSOLUTELY!
My friend bought a complete Paradigm reference setup (studio 100's, ADP's, center) and re-wired them all using pure silver wire. He also purchased a mammoth, pure silver subwoofer cable for his Servo 15. I can't remember what he paid for the silver wire (not to mention the small roll of silver solder he had to use), but I do recall I was floored when he told me. I do recall the subwoofer cable was around a thousand bucks.
After he finished wiring them all, he had me come over to listen to them. He continued to attest to the improvement in sound....noting the highs were much better than before. I heard no difference, but then again I didn't listen to his system every day like he did. When I told him I couldn't hear any difference, he became annoyed and kept throwing in different CD's and asking me again and again. I kept telling him there was no difference and eventually began to raz him for wasting is money. This banter went on for a while until he finally became so agitated that I told him I had just been kidding with him the whole time; and that I did notice a subtle difference. He guess he just needed some validation.
KC- about your friend that spent around a thousand bucks on a sub cable.is that the same one that spent 1200 on the sub?he would have been better off getting another sub
Guys, check ou these websites: www.1388.com (they sell speaker cable that goes for THOUSANDS of dollars per foot, & (get this!) CRYSTALS to put on your speakers to improve the sound...there's one born every minute. Also www.jenalabs.com, for cryogenically frozen speaker wire at thousands of dollars a foot!!
I checked out that 1388 site. That's ridiculous, but I'm not surprised by any audiophile product claims anymore. The amber on the speaker is just unbelievable.
I have some 12 gauge that I will throw in my freezer over night. The next day I will microwave it to seal in all the good stuff that happened in my freezer. When it's done in the nuker I will rub it against my lucky dollar for exactly 30 minutes to remove all the bad karma. (All you dirty minded people, stop right there..........) When that is all said and done, I will give it to my dog Skippy who will proceed to bury it out in the backyard. This will let the earth work it's magic on the cable. All this and more is yours for only $1199.00 per foot. RCA's are extra and if you want them treated with the same method as the cable, please add on another $429.99.
pfft. What a newbie, you don't get earth's magic unless a cat buries it.
I got some generic 12 ga holding up an Italian Cypress - I'd love to see the Mapleshade Double Helix do that.
Unfortunately when I sheet rocked 11 years ago, I had to run 30 ft lengths for my rear speakers and I used a thin gauge wire. The good news is they are monster brand wire and they always have sounded good. My question is , as I am now going to upgrade to the qs8 soon I hope, am I going to suffer a lot of sound quality with this thinner wire? 16 gauge is my guess of what I have.(Thinner than 12 right?)Will this matter that I will use heavier wire on all other speakers? I hope not because I may be stuck! Thanks for your help
Yes 16 gauge is thinner than 12 gauge. OK. Here it is. The ubiquitous
Wire Table.
As you can see 16 gauge will be OK up to a 37 foot run with 6 ohm speakers (QS8s).
I think it will be OK to use a different gauge wire with your other speakers, but to be sure, someone more knowledgeable than I will have to confirm or deny that.
In reply to:
What a newbie, you don't get earth's magic unless a cat buries it.
Hooooooooold on. Not a newbie at all............if the cat does it, that would be considered an upgrade. Additional charges will apply!
Zub, welcome. You may have it a bit backwards; the 16ga is ok( study
this excellent article and wire table by a well-respected veteran audio professional)but the unfortunate part may have been spending too much on monster, which is as good as the rest, but is overpriced. Don't worry; the 16 ga is fine for the QS8s and you don't need heavier wire for the other speakers either.
Thanks. I guess my other wire is about 14 g it looks a lot thicker. Anyway glad to be aboard as I learn . I will have many questions I am sure.
OK I vaguely understand. My problem is I will have a long run to my QS8 about 45-50 ft(possibly longer). I want to use 14 or 12g wire (Which is better? is this even correct?) my back surr wires are stuck through the sheet rock 16g 30-35 ft runs they are staying. The chart does not list max run for 6 ohms for runs longer than 37. What wire do I use with my long run qs8? thanks for your help.
Zub, Mr. Russell doesn't show distances longer than 50 feet on the chart, but you'll notice that the entry for 6ohms for 14ga would have been 20-40-(60) feet. So 14 ga would be okay for your 45-50 foot run. Don't worry about trying to cut this too fine; a few feet doesn't make a significant difference.
What the chart is saying is that, with 6 ohm speakers, and using 16 gauge wire, the maximum run you should do is 37 feet. If your run is longer than that, (45-50 ft.- possibly longer), with 6 ohm speakers, you should be using either 14 or 12 gauge.
I am not technically oriented enough to say how absolute that chart is. Maybe JohnK will chime in tonight, with more help.
I'm a little confused. You say the BACK surround runs of 16 gauge wire that is in your walls is 30 to 35 ft long, and will be used for the BACK surrounds. What speakers will you be using for your BACK surrounds?
But, you have a 45-50 foot run to your QS8s. I'm assuming you will be using your QS8s for your surrounds, NOT your back surrounds. If that is correct, use some 14 or 12 gauge for the QS8s.
Don't forget the crystals
All you can do is laugh. It's amazing how much money people are willing to spend to achieve or perceive good audio without understanding the science behind it (if any). The lack of true data has put most of the claims in the B.S. category. I actually love seeing and reading about this kind of stuff, it humors me to no end. Anyway, I know everyone here doesn’t fall for these snake oil claims, at least I hope not. I also know that I’m preaching to the choir.
I just want to educate the new members.
Sorry I was not clear. I plan on 2 backs and 2 sides either 4 qs8 or 2qs8 on the sides and 2 m2i in the back due to my wife's cabinet(I wanted the 22's). So I have 16g for the backs <35 foot run and the side qs8 will be really long on side That is what i needed to know I will assume that 12 or 14 will work as youn say.Will there be a problem with the BACK qs8 or M2i having 16g Another question I read where the length of wire should be equal Does that mean every riun is the same, or just the run involving r/l for that type eg the side qs8 must be the same 45 feet and the fronts must both be 5ft. Also what about the length of the sub wire? God I love this forum! Thanks for all your help.
Now we're on the same page. The 16 gauge, in wall, wire will be fine for the 35 ft. run to the rear surrounds. And the 14 or 12 gauge will be fine for the longer run to your surrounds.
I honestly don't know if it is required that all speaker wires be the same length. Mine aren't. Mine are just the right length from the receiver to each speaker, with a little slack for positioning. Again, someone with more knowledge than I will hopefully address this question for you.
Nope...not required for speaker wires to be the same length. It would take thousands of feet in difference to come even close to making an audible difference.
I also know that this subject is taboo in most forums. To avoid a conflict I will point out a few facts and let everyone decide on their own, as this is just my observation.
Most industries such as telecom have standards in which a product has to meet or exceed a certain specification and or criteria. For Example, CAT 5 voice and data cable must meet minimum TIA/EIA and Belcore telecom standards before it can be certified as "CAT 5" and be sold for this purpose, the cable MUST perform to specification determined by TIA/EIA, Bisci and etc.
Now audio cable doesn't have regulations like telecom. So the people that sell their cable for $1000.00 per foot can say anything they want. They don't have to meet any specifications at all. All they have to worry about is that the cable can pass a voltage or signal.
Companies like Belden manufacture the majority of cable and then it’s re-packaged without Belden’s name. Most companies can’t afford to produce their own cable (except Monster and it’s made overseas). The tooling and overhead would be enormous. Why not have some third party companies produce the cable and put on a custom logo? Once the High Dollar or “ACME cable” company gets a hold of it they can freeze it, bury it, rub crystallized viper venom on it or whatever they want. It would be simple to do, why not start rumors on a forum (somewhere) about a new cable mfg that decided to send 120 Volt over a 49.5-hour period in a 100-degree room, as a result it “broke” in the cable and began the “molecular” alignment process, which produced the smoothest sound he had ever heard after many listening sessions. Most of us wouldn’t listen, there might be one or two that would buy this cable and repeat the whole process on another forum and so on. I have to admit most of that stuff is pretty and looks like it should perform the way it was marketed.
I would love to see real data comparing the majority of the cable out there. It would be interesting how similar a $14.00 cable would perform against a $500.00 one. I know this doesn’t apply in every case but it sure would be fun:)
The best bang for the buck in my opinion is Blue Jeans cable.
Anyone here have any thoughts on standards for audio cable?
Tom
Zub, as Curtis said, forget about equal length. That's just another bit of audio nonsense that seems to float around(thankfully very little of it on this board). The signals travel along the wire at around 80% of the speed of light(which is about 186,000 miles per second)and the wires would have to differ in length by miles before there would be a significant difference in timing. A shorter difference would make one speaker louder than the other because of less power loss in the shorter wire, but this could be corrected simply by slightly increasing the level to the other speaker. The differences in length that could exist in home use don't even cause that problem.
As he says, Mr. Russell's table is based simply on not having the wire resistance exceed 5% of the speaker impedance, which works well in practice. It isn't meant to be a precise measure, which isn't necessary or even possible.
Thanks to all for your tremendous help.
In reply to:
The best bang for the buck in my opinion is Blue Jeans cable
I agree! SignalCable is not to far behind either!