I'd like to pose this question to some of the enthusiasts out there. Is there any sonic benefits going Class A vs Class A/B type amplification. That Marantz PM-7200 mentioned by 2X6spds seems interesting. I also had my eye on the Creek 5350se for sometime
http://creekaudio.com/main_content.asp?catlook=53&content=53series
Will I get any sonic benefit replacing my 15 year old Bryston 4B with any of the two above? Any other recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Sat, there are no sonic benefits, but the electric company will be grateful for using more of their service.
Oh...
Why so many brands? so many levels of power? and difference in prices. Also why is there a difference sonically when using my Pioneer Elite receiver vs. my Bryston 4B? Are all reviewers on those major magazines all bunk? I can't fathom how all those people are wrong?
Saturn,
If I were you I would just keep the Bryston and be done with it.I would personally love to have an amp of that quaulity,heck there's still 5 years left on the warranty
.
It's one of two things, or both, IMO.
a) Placeabo
b) Power
Receivers can be starved of power if you blast it.
And a lot of those magazines review cables saying how much they improved the soundstage and gave life to the recording. It's funny to read. I'd like to see some blind test results from all of these magazines instead of placeabo.
But.. man. Bryston 4B - 300 watts into 8 ohms. You should be _done_ with amps. I can only dream ofhaving an amp of that quality and power. Blast it without distortion and be happy.
I question wheather class A is better than a higher end receiver. I recall a post here when I was looking into the issue by alan, where he said that he used to keep his lunch on top of the amp to keep it warm.
Do you really want something taking over 500 watts up constantly when you don't need it to?
In reply to:
Do you really want something taking over 500 watts up constantly when you don't need it to?
Only 500 watts,between my main amp and sub amps its 1050 watts being used.I know the electic co. loves me.
Of course there is a difference. You are in a position to compare mass market equipment (Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo) with upscale equipment (Bryston, Creek, etc). If you hear a difference - and I know you will based on comparisons I have also done - then it exists....regardless of what others what you to believe.
You are seemingly comparing an integrated (Creek) with an amp (Bryston). Was this intentional? As mentioned, your Bryston is an excellent amp - but not simply because of power output. The Creek is also an excellent amp, but not directly comparable, unless you plan to bypass the preamp.
A note to all the people who mentioned "Increased Electric requirements" - simply because an amplifier mentions output (sonic) of 500watts, this does not mean that the draw from the local utility will be enough to be billed for 500 watts.
BTW, the difference in the amplifier output classes - to be simple - is to eliminate transistor anomalies when the waveform switches from positive to negative sections of the waveform. There are other reasons, but the main one is to stop the switching issues.
OK, how about a constant draw of 200-300 watts? Bad enough...
Why are those of you who believe that amps make a difference because they've heard it so sure that the placebo effect doesn't happen? I just recall my experience of comparing the M50s to the M22s with a 5 sec gap between in order to back up to the same passage on the CD. They sounded the same (because I really wanted them to?) But when we switched immediately in the stream of the music, they sounded different. Sonic memory is damn short, guys...
I thought the class A amps drew large amounts of power continuously, no?
They do, but the rated power output is not the same as the rated power input. However, it's still gonna be pretty high.
"Why are those of you who believe that amps make a difference because they've heard it so sure that the placebo effect doesn't happen?"
How are you so sure that it wasn't the placebo effect and they did hear a difference? I haven't listened to my old Altecs in about two months but I can still remember that they produced low, muddy bass. My M22's produce more tight, accurate bass as well as having pin point imaging. Now I admit that the differences between two quality components or speakers is more subtle than crap and quality gear but I'm sure it can still be heard if you want it to.
The only thing that really bothers me about these forums is that most regulars here don't enter anything with an open mind. If someone hears a difference (whether it be in their head or tangible) then they heard a difference. I don't like how everyone gets all sharp or "you are wrong because I said so". I don't happen to prescribe to the idea that SS amps sound different from one another, but my limited experience hasn't allowed me to do demonstrations between quality amps and my reciever. If I was to hear differences between amps I would change my stance. I pose this question to you scientists. If you were to hear a difference between components(even if it were marginal), would you immediately think you were dillusional because there couldn't be a difference?
In reply to:
If you were to hear a difference between components(even if it were marginal), would you immediately think you were dillusional because there couldn't be a difference?
As science requires, you need to verify the results of your experiment. Your results must be repeatable under controlled circumstances. This means other people besides you need to be able to hear it in a blind test. Just knowing what device is in use WILL skew your perceptions. That has been proven time and time again.
And if you can hear a difference, then that difference should be measurable. Like it or not, electronic measuring equipment is MUCH more sensitive than the human ear (and doesn't have a biased brain attached to it).
Either way, he wasn't debating the issue and didn't deserve to be replied to in that manner. Now if he was calling everyone out and saying that electronic meters and testing were bogus, then we have a different matter. If he heard a difference, the guess what guys? He HEARD a difference. It's his money not yours.
Interesting post. I was thinking earlier when I posted that not everone has had the opportunity to audition pieces against one another in controlled enviroments. Or for that matter has everyone had/have access to a great variety of audio equipment.
I also find it interesting - as you point out - that we categorically state there is a difference when listing to speakers, and no difference when it comes to ------- (insert device here). Many of those who proclaim this and that are listening/using certain levels of equipment, and beleive they have the best...and that is great and fine with me. However, I have always approached this hobby with an open mind (once again, as you state), and believe what I hear - or trust what I hear.
There will be people who will cite numerous sources and listening tests. I once particpated in a listening test where all the pieces were behind a curtain, and thus unnamed. The person running it switched between amps, sources and speakers. We simply indentified the products with a number and all kept notes.The limited audience that was onhand ranged from boombox types to serious audiofans. I can state that I could tell differences between low end stuff (Onkyo, JVC) and higher end stuff (YBA, SIMAudio). Not that I thought the higher end products always sounded better - just that I could definitely tell there were differences. For example, expensive Verity and Cain & Cain speakers (multiple thousands of dollars) did not impress me, and I felt the PSB Status sounded better when we tallied the scores and shared thoughts.
Scientific? Not really. Definitive? no. Just sharing an experience.....
Anyway, this type of debate is always going on, whether we are talking $100 products, or $10,000 products. I guess that is what makes it appealling - that there are choices for everyone, based on thoughts, impressions, beliefs, budgets and personal needs.
Funny, I interpreted his post as a throw a glove in your face type challenge to those of us on the, shall we say, scientific side of things. I thought my response was fairly measured. I think it's important to remember that tone of voice is not available as an input in writing...
In answer to your question, yes, I would. I would want to hear it back to back immediately (if that was possible), see if scientific measurements by an independant board indicated differences in the frequency response, etc, and see if someone else heard the same thing I did. If no to any of these questions, it's likely in my head.
johnK: As always I value your experience...ole timer.
wid: Yeah it has only 5 more years of warrantee but I got the itch again. It is also 15 years old..so I figure new technology might be better...but since amp technology has been pretty much mature it doesn't mean the new amps are any better.
Thasp:
As with wires/cable I have come to the conclusion that any standard 12g is good for most people. I compared wires $30(noname) $80 (audioquest) $180 (kimber) $500 (audioquest)and come to the conclusion all sound the same. I had my fiancee do the test and she has perfect hearing based on the last doctors checkup. I have tinitis. Most exotic cables have better covering and insulation and thickness to maybe give it more durability. The only time she noticed a difference is pure silver wires.
Yes my Bryston is 250w@8ohms and 600w@4ohms but my Maggies have clipped the red light 3 times playing a track by Frederick Fennel composing with the Dallas Wind Symphony.
BBIBH:Yes I did notice a difference bettween my Pioneer Elite vs my Bryston since I have it setup on A-B. On all occassions I had people say they noticed better sonic performance using the Bryston vs the Pioneer at the same dB level using the same CDP and same speakers. If anyone is in doubt I welcome anyone to come over and listen for themselves.
kcarlile:my setup does not have that 5 sec gap. It is instantaneous because I have both signals on a pasive preamp with a toggle for A and B. So based on my findings standard Pio, yammys, Denons, NAD and Rotels even did not sound any different...going amps like Bryston, Exposure had seemingly more detail and better headroom when cranking up vs mass market amp/receivers.
Comon now if most people believed all power is the same why is the Pioneer VSX514 @100w is $275 and the Krell KSA 100 @100w is $3895. You think music coming out of that Pioneer would be exactly the same as the Krell since the consesus here deems that power is power so get one in your budget?
I guess I might need to try a Class A amp and with my regular SS A/B amp and see if the difference is only that I can warm up my dinner with the Class A amp.
Perhaps that 100 watt rating is more accurate for the Bryston than the Pioneer. You're also paying for build quality, the nameplate, appearance, warranty, etc. I don't think that price is necessarily comprable to performance. A Corvette will perform better than a couple of Ferraris, but it costs about half as much. Not quite the same price difference, but... You're paying for the name. That said, I'd rather have the Ferrari.
A Corvette really performs better than a Ferrarri?...I didn't know that...I'm not a car enthusiast...I don't even own a car...I just choose to live downtown and not own one ..transport is easy...and that $700 in my pocket a month..to spend on my hobbies.
In some ways. In all fairness, I shouldn't compare cars to amps... There's so many differing performance aspects to cars that don't really apply to amps.
It doesn't sound like you need class A power - it sounds like you just need more power.
If 600 watts(the maggies are 4 ohm speakers, so I'll go with that) is not enough for them, I really don't know where you'll find a more powerful amp. I doubt that amp is pushing that much, because in theory - you get twice as much power at 4 ohms that you do at 8 ohms. It is a true rarity that you'll find an amp that increases linearally in watts as the ohms decreases - and being able to deliver twice as many watts plus one hundred more at 4 ohms than at 8 ohms just doesn't sound real to me. Perhaps you should look into higher power amps such as
this rotel. It pumps out 130 watts more in 8 ohms, which is in theory 260 more watts in 4 ohms - sounds like what you need. You cann sell that Bryston for $2400+ easily, and for that price, surely you can find something(perhaps used) with more power.
Or keep the amp and buy some less problematic speakers! JK, LOL, haha, etc...
or if that model Bryston will allow, he could also bridge them into monoblocks and drive each speaker with a separate amp.....
That would be really sweet.
(Long Post Sorry) I own a Class A Jungson amp. Within the last 2 years I have also owned a Jolida Tube amp, Jolida Hybrid amp and Cambridge Audio SS amp.
No, I don't believe a Class a amp will always sound better then Class A/B. Its all up to the designer. There are excellent and poor amps in the both camps.
So my opinion no.
Now the question do all amps sound the same? Well according to some pseudo scientists here the answer is yes. This arguments been around for 30 plus years.
According to them. Flat frequency responses tests prove they all sound the same.
Although some people sware they sound the same. Do speakers that are have flat graphs (+/-3db)from say 60hz to 20,000 hz all sound the same?
I would hope ones hearing has not deteriorated enough to answer in the affirmative.
So why would one assume a $69 Sherwood receiver that measures flat from 20-20000hz would sound the same as a $2000 amp measuring the same?
I know in 1978 I bought a Yamaha CR2020 Receiver to replace a 1 year old Kenwood. A audio enthusiast who was very knowledgable told me there would be no difference in sound, based on the same argument of flat frequency response.
I really did not expect any difference. I just thought the Yamaha would look so good in my living room I went ahead and bought it. I wasn't looking for any difference but there was no mistaking the difference in sound.
The difference in sound from amps while not nearly as dramatic as speakers is definitly obvious IMO.
I know two recent examples in my memory. On a Stanley Jordan live CD there is a drum solo at the end of a track. On my Cambridge Audio Amp you can hear a loud sizzle (sounds just like bacon frying) from the cymbols as the track fades out. On the Jungson absolutely no sizzle at all. You would have to be deaf to miss it.
Another example was when I was doing some experimenting. Took the Jungson out and put in the Cambridge. My wife came home from work and while in another room from the system asked: "Whats wrong with the stereo?" What do you mean. "Sounds tinny and there is no bass".
Now if my wife can tell a difference from 2 rooms away on casual listening, how can someone not hear a difference while actually doing critical listening?
One final point. I've noticed those who preach all amps, speakers and CD players sound the same (based on scientific measurements), don't practice what they preach. You can buy a 105 watt Sherwood receiver for $69, an Audiovox CD/DVD player for $40 and some KLH floorstanders that go to 40hz for under $150. Do any of the them actually buy a $250 system, since on paper it should sound the same as a $2500 system?
I really wish my $500 Cambridge Audio amp sounded the same or at least close to my $2000 Jungson. I would definitly rather spend the money elsewhere. But it just ain't so.
Sorry to rant but I find this "All amps sound the same" argument to be seriously in error
Let me point out that our camp (assuming there is a camp... some help here, guys?
) does NOT say that a Sherwood sounds the same as a Bryston. Well built and designed amps should sound the same. I mean, they're just amplifying a signal. If they don't sound the same, there's something wrong with the design. There's also the possibility of a subtle difference in volume between the two.
Oh yeah, and btw, NO ONE here says that speakers sound the same.
As to the rest of that argument, there is quite a lot to be said for build quality, styling, warranties, prestige from owning cool stuff, etc.
Okay, for a little more detail on amp classes the discussion and illustrations
here may be of interest. Any competently designed class AB amp, regardless of the nameplate or pricetag, reduces the crossover distortion which may trouble a pure class B amp to inaudibly low levels. When this is the case and other distortion sources along with noise are inaudibly low combined with ruler-flat frequency response(common these days at very low price)amplification is transparent and nothing audible happens except that the sound is much louder, of course. Properly controlled blind listening tests have shown that when the nameplates and pricetags disappear so do sound differences which were previously extravagantly described.
Hi Kcarlile! If a $2000 Jungson amp and $69 Sherwood receiver both are flat (20-20000hz +/-3db) and have comparable Harmonic and other distortion then why wouldn't they sound the same or at least very very close?
The reason I use the Jungson and Sherwood as examples is because I have used both to drive my 3K monitors and they are like night and day.
No. No one here said all speakers sound the same. But there are those who steadfastly say that all speakers sound the same, are based on the same arguments of flat frequency response and rapid fire blind testing. Why wouldn't two speakers sound almost identical if they test flat from say 60hz to 20000hz?
Also a CD player reads simple digital code. Even the cheapest machines can do this. Yet some say all players sound the same, because just like an amp merely ampifies a signal a CD player merely reads digital code
Dude! Read my post! I never said anything about the "$69 Sherwood" being the same as the big amp! I said well designed amps should sound the same! They should be transparent! A "$69 Sherwood" is NOT A WELL DESIGNED AMP!
So what would account for the difference in sound among "quality" and lesser amps? If the Sherwood and Jungson both have flat responses and distortion levels below human hearing why would there be a differnce?
Isn't the whole argument, all amps sound the same based on Scientific measurements which show no statistically significance in measurements.
Do they really have flat responses, or does their marketing crapola say so? Well designed are the key words here. Show me the numbers. Audio ain't magic, folks. It really, really isn't.
God to think I got into this just wondering why people refuse to believe in the placebo effect...
Edit:
I should correct my statement: If the designers are competent and the builders are competent AND assuming they want to build a flat amp (as opposed to a SS amp that tries to mimic a tube amp), the amps should sound the same, all factors (volume level, wattage/headroom) being the same.
From my understanding of how sound is produced, how it travels, and how it is measured, I would have to say that two speakers with IDENTICAL frequency response graphs would have to sound identical. Ditto for two amps and their graphs.
Or am I missing something?
BigWill, not necessarily. Assuming the measuring equipment is calibrated well, if tests of two different different speakers produce identical frequency response graphs, then they had better sound identical -- but only at the levels tested. If you measure them at twice the loudness, then the results will most definitely diverge unless they are in fact identical speakers.
Of course, the chances of two different speakers having identical frequency responses are probably far less than my chance of winning the California Lottery, and I only play about 2 -3 times per year.
You just love to correct me, don't you?
Doesn't everyone?
In reply to:
You just love to correct me, don't you?
well, you give us soooooo many chances to do it!!
whatya expect?
bigjohn
Ok, fair enough.
Yes I definitly believe in the Placebo effect. Nicer appearance and build quality or tell somebody an identical component costs 3X and I believe they will strain and eventually find a difference.
I think there are many who believe if it costs more it has to be better. I think almost everyone on this board, at least if they own Axiom, know this to be untrue.