Well, I’ve had my M80’s for about two weeks now, and for the most part, I'm pretty happy with them. I'm quite certain that for $1100, I can't find anything that sounds as good as these speakers do.
I could use some educating from y’all regarding sub woofers. I am not an audiophile or anything remotely close to it. I’m learning from scratch here, so please bear with my ignorance. I posted this question at Audioholics, but didn't get much help there. I'm beginning to think the audience over there is bored with my questions.
I’m driving the speakers with a Harmon Kardon 7200 in stereo mode only. I have them set up on the ‘second zone’ with independent remote, which is actually the 6 and 7th channels for the surround back. The speakers sound great with plenty of base, mids and highs, and will play louder than I can stand. But at lower volumes, something just seems to be lacking. I can’t resist the urge to turn up the volume, which is counter productive to conversations when I have guests over. I was trying to avoid using a sub due to the room lay out, but now I’m thinking that a sub would help fill the room with some light background sound when I have parties where folks actually want to communicate with each other. I started a string here a few weeks ago that has my room specifics.
I am looking for suggestions / input in regards to running a stereo sub woofer in this space with the M80’s. I don’t know squat about subs, what types there are, how they are hooked up, powered, where to put them, etc…. Some specific questions I have are, do I need a separate amp to run one under the multi room function through the pre-outs, or can I still use the surround back amps to power the speakers and a sub woofer both? It would seem a shame to not be able to take advantage of the HK’s power. Do some subs sound better with music than HT? Does size really matter? Any input would be appreciated.
……..mike
Hello mdrew,
The urge to turn up the M80s is natural because of a characteristic of human hearing. At low volume our ears are quite insensitive to deep bass frequencies, an effect scientifically documented in the Fletcher-Munson curves. Anyway, for some years many receivers and preamps included a "loudness" control, separate from the volume control, which compensated for this trait of human hearing. You would pre-set the volume to your usual loud level, then turn down the loudness control, which automatically increased bass boost the more you turned it down to compensate for our insensitivity to bass at low listening levels. Some Yamaha gear may still include a Loudness control. You can compensate easily by simply boosting the bass to your M80ti's on your H/K 7200 at low volume.
No, you don't need an extra amplifier to run a sub. Virtually all subs are "active" and contain their own built-in power amp. You would connect your Zone 2 speaker cables to the speaker level inputs on the sub, which extract the deep bass, then pass on the signals with a second set of cables to your M80ti's. But the same phenomenon still operates. At low volume, you will want to turn up the sub volume to compensate for your hearing of deep bass.
Yes, physics always dictates sub limits: the larger the box and the driver diameter (they go hand in hand), the deeper the bass frequencies and the greater the output. The larger the room, the bigger the sub you need. It's a pressure pump and does not care where you sit. It must pressurize the room volume it "sees", so larger rooms need a larger sub (or two).
This explanation overlooks many aspects of sub design, but the basics are covered.
Regards,
Thanks Alan. That’s some interesting reading. So, from what you tell me, even with a sub I’ll still feel the urge to crank up the volume. But what do you think about my idea of adding a sub in this room? Will it help fill the room at the lower volume levels?
Unfortunately, in the mult-room configuration, the receiver does nothing more than pass the stereo signal through to the speakers. I can not manipulate the bass and treble controls, or balance either. The only think I can change is the volume. I can’t use any of the H/K’s surround processes either. I’m pretty disappointed about that. If I would have known, I most likely would have bought something different.
Who makes a good, less than $1000 sub that would match up with the 80’s? One big enough for this room? Are the Axiom subs any good? Are there any other nifty electronic gizmos out that would give me some control over the bass/treble signals between the receiver and speakers? What about round vrs box, any difference?
Well, I'll start with the obvious. In that price range
SVS makes good
cylinder subs, and equally good
box subs.
So does
HSU like the
VTF-3 MKII
There are other good subs including the Axiom subs. These are the places to start looking.
mdrew, check out the SVS or the HSU... They do have some kick butt bass. I must warn you though the auto on function does not really work good at low level. You have to turn the gain of the sub pretty high before it will kick on at low level. With the gain set at high, the bass becomes overpowering. You just have to experiment with it. With my experience I always turned the volume loud enough to wake up the sub then I turned the volume down to the desired low level listening.
Actually the best bet is to get a Radio Shack SPL meter and calibrate your speakers... I'm pretty sure there will be more knowledgeable people other than Alan that will chime in to assist you. Good luck!
I have an SVS 20-39 PC+ and with the gain on the sub approximately 1/3 of the way up, the setting on the receiver at -2 (rcvr goes to +10) and the auto on switch on AUTO, I have bass regardless of the volume level.
It is right in a walkway to my bedroom and so I usually put a hand on it as I pass by just to feel it work...even when the volume is very low, it is still is doing its job...supplying impressive bass.
WhatFurrer
A good choice for a sub for music would be the
Outlaw LFM-1. You can get a pair of them for $999 not including shipping.
Wid posted a link in this
thread a few days ago to a nice write up on
using a pair of subs for stereo.
I have an LFM-1 and it produces nice tight bass. Wish I had the cash at the time I bought it to have gone for the pair.
WhatFurrer, it's probably just my setup. I remember not having any problem with the Paradigm sub and Pioneer receiver. SVS even suggested to use both input which I did and it didn't help. I still like my SVS though...:)
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. Instead of hooking speaker cables up to the new sub, use the pre-outs that the H/K 7200 has for the channels for the Zone 2. Always cleaner to use the pre-outs.
As far as tone controls you could stick a good equalizer in-line with the sub. That only solves the bass control though. To get treble control would be harder, you would have to hook a 2 channel amp to the line outs of the subwoofer, then hook your speakers to the new amp. All tone control would utilize the EQ and would be passed along to the mains through the subs line-outs via the new 2 channel amp. Probably a heck of a lot cheaper to get a 2 channel amp and pre-amp on ebay, than this elaborate work around though, hehe.
If you just want bass control, and can live without treble control, try to get a subwoofer with a built in parametric EQ. Lot less equipment to buy with this option. The SVS PC-Ultra has built in parametric EQ, it is $1,149 + shipping, and they don't get much better.
Later,
TonyM
TonyM,
I hope you are indeed well! Thanks for the other suggestion to Mdrew, about using the pre-outs for the 2nd zone. (My face is red.) I have an H/K as well but I don't use the Zone 2, nor have I looked at the back panel lately. Good alternative, although I don't like the idea of running long coax lines with low-level signals to other rooms.
And yes, I agree with you on it being simpler to just get a separate amp/receiver on ebay for the second room. I often suggest that to customers who get all fired up about doing whole-house multi-room installations . . ..
By the way, Mdrew, according to a syndicated A/V columnist who loved our Axiom M22ti's, M2i's and M80s, he reported to me that the cheapo Panasonic digital receiver ($200?) will drive our 4-ohm M80ti's with no hassles. I'm dubious, I've never heard the Panasonic, and I'm not endorsing it, but he says it works just fine with the M80s.
Regards,
Hello Allen,
Hope you are well. Yes, I too own a H/K, the AVR 630. The only weakness I see in it is the lack of control if you use it configured for 2 zone operation. I did not buy it for dual zone use, so it did not bother me. Other than that and the dinky little buttons on that remote, it is the best receiver that I have owned so far.
Later,
TonyM
I'm curious... doesn't using the Zone 2 preouts disable the Zone 2 speaker outs?
With my Denon 2803 the 6th & 7th channel and zone 2 speaker connections are one and the same. There is also one set of pre-outs for channels 6/7 and zone2. You can set it up so that you can use the speaker connections for one (e.g. channels 6/7) and the pre-outs for the other (e.g. zone2).
Perhaps you were asking if you could use both speaker connections and the pre-out simultaneously for zone2 (4 speakers)?
Well thanks for all the input fella’s. and yes, I am doing well. I hope that y'all are to! All your input has me asking more questions now. Hope you don’t get irritated, I tend to beat things till they stop twitching. This may take a while.
Firstly, I’m not sure about using the pre-out for the sub woofer. I’d have to run about 20 feet of coax to it. Plus, Kcarlile’s question makes me wonder about that as well. The manual does not say one way or the other if I can use both the pre-outs and the second zone speaker outputs at the same time.…….this may have to be an experiment. H/K tech has not been overly helpful with my questions. Their email responses have been brief. if anyone wants to take a shot at reading through the manual, H/K has it on line. The multi-room info is on page 36. it’s not all that informative……
Could someone explain to me what the pro’s / con’s are in regards to using the pre-out vrs the speaker cables to the sub woofer? Why is this ‘cleaner’??
The main reason I bought this receiver is its amps. I bought it to drive the M80’s, plus my 5 channel HT that’s in the other room. But the main consideration was this receiver’s power. I really don’t want to spend any more money on amps. But I did consider this option at one point. I had considered buying a less expensive receiver, using pre-outs to a second amp that would drive the M80’s in the other room.
Back to my sub woofer selection……is there any real benefits to go with a down firing sub? One obvious advantage that comes to mind it kids. They wouldn’t be able to kick out a woofer if it’s on the bottom….., not that my 10 year old boy would ever do that……
Has anyone actually had the opportunity to listen to the SVS, HSU and Outlaws for a comparison?? They all look to be pretty similar and all get good marks at most forums. About the same price range. Should I stick to 12” for my room size? Or would a 10” be enough?
And thanks for the EQ info. I’m not real concerned with treble control, the 80’s seem to have more than enough highs and mids. I think a parametric EQ is definitely something worth more consideration.
Ericb…., no, I just want to run the set of M80’s and a sub woofer in the second zone. I’m having a hard enough time arranging furniture for one set of speakers, four would be impossible. This room is my great room where folks gather when I throw a party. I just play CD’s and the satellite signal, which is pretty crappy by the way – but that’s for another string. I think we have the same configuration. The speaker outs are used if you do not want to run another amplifier and don’t need 7 channel in the main Zone. Then I also have pre-outs for seven channels, including the sub woofer for the Zone II. These pre-outs all need an external amp. The question that needs to be answered, is if I can run the speakers off the speaker outs (6 and 7th channels), and run the sub off the pre-outs at the same time.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. I have an H/K AVR 630, there is always a pre-out signal even with the speakers connected on my unit. I would assume it is the same with your 7200. I tested this with my speakers connected and ran the pre-out to an old receiver and the signal comes through fine.
As far as why the pre-out is cleaner, it is not amplified yet. When you run the speaker cable output it is amplified by the receiver and then amplified again by the subwoofer amplifier this can distort the sound, compared to just amplifying the signal once.
The SVS PC-Ultra with the parametric EQ has a 525watt BASH amp, it will easily handle your room and much more. You might not even have to put it downstairs with your speakers therefore eliminating such a long cable run. If I remember correctly your HT is on an open balcony, yes? Try putting the sub at the rail and see how it sounds with your mains downstairs. Another benefit of this is you could quickly unplug the downstairs cable, and hook up your HT cables and use the Sub for both areas with a slight adjustment of the subs volume.
As far as downfiring subwoofers is concerned people seem to prefer the downfiring models. I could not find any specifics on this topic. Biggest reason I can think of is the dispersion of sound is 360 degrees with a downfiring model, which would be very beneficial if you try the sub in the configuration is suggested. Plus the driver is indeed protected from poking kicking etc....
Later,
TonyM
Thank you for the reply Tony. Yes, you remembered correctly. The HT is upstairs in an open loft. I'll try the sub upstairs and see how that goes. And thanks for clarification on the output and the pre-out vrs speaker out. That all makes sense.
The Ultra sounds like a dandy. A little too much money though, but It's deffinately on my short list. Just hurts a little to pay as much for a sub as my main speakers.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. No problem. You may really want to talk to the people at SVS, they are very nice and will give you better advice than I can on which sub would work.
Website is www.svsubwoofers.com
The new SVS PB-2 ISD might also work in your situation, it is an $899 dual 12" box subwoofer with 600 watt bash amp without parametric EQ, as opposed to the single 12" driver PC-Ultra cylinder sub. The PB-2 ISD is 115 lbs and will take up much more floor space than the cylinder, which only takes up 16 inches of floor space and is only 68 lbs and is much easier to roll into place by one person.
I believe if you can live without the EQ for now, you can always add one later, that the PB-2 ISD would have enough power to suit your needs for a lower price. Although you will need enough floor space and another strong person to place it where you wish it.
If space is at a premium nothing fits better than a cylinder sub though, since they only take up 16 inches of floor space, all their volume goes upwards instead of outwards.
Lots of things to consider here. Also, that is alot of volume to fill with those high ceilings.
Later,
TonyM
OK fella’s, I’m getting closer to buying something (I would like to place an order today). One more round of questions for you……
I just received some help from H/K web support. The sub pre-out will not work for the multi-room function. I should clarify that. It will not work with more than one source playing at the same time. There is only one sub pre-out, and it is not dedicated to Zone II, but to the main room (Zone I). If I were playing a DVD in the main room, the sub in the second room would be playing the DVD. So it looks like I’m stuck using the speaker outs for the sub in Zone II. Currently, I have 14 gauge oxygen free cables to the M80’s. I didn’t know where I was going to place them, so I cut the cables to 35’ equal lengths. I ended up needed most of that length, but I could place the sub where I could cut them to 30’. Will I here noise by hooking up the sub this way? I will not have enough room to upstairs to place the sub, so It has to go downstairs next to the M80’s.
As far as the sub selection, I’m leaning toward the HSU VTF-3, HSU STF-3, SVS PB1-ISD and the Outlaw LFM-1. Seeing how I live in Alaska, these companies only ship Fed-X second day air. Shipping to me is roughly $150 - $200 for these subs. That makes $700 the limit for the sub, plus shipping my new max. I can’t really tell by reading through the HSU web sight what gain I would get from the VTF line over the STF line that would be worth the extra $100. Does anyone have a guess what that might be?
Which one of these subs would guys buy? I think for my situation and room layout, a down firing sub is the way to go. I can hide a box sub next to one of my couches and make an end table out of it. The tall cylinder subs would look down right hideous in this room (everything is wood).
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. The people at HK were not thinking very well. You can use the channel 7 and 8 pre-outs to the sub. Hook them up to the left and right line level inputs. Plus you can just switch the cable pre-outs to change to the HT when you do home theater, so one sub for both zones, big benefit. Could use an a/b switch box.
If you are willing to put a cylinder sub upstairs, in the $700 range I would try the SVS 25-31PC Plus for $775. If you are going with a box sub I would see if you could stretch your budget to the SVS PB2-ISD at $899, $199 over budget, but your room is very large which is difficult for a subwoofer to pressurize.
Of the subs you mentioned, either the VTF-3 Mk2, or the SVS PB1-ISD are very good subs. So, toss up between them.
Keeping in the price range take a look at the SVS 20-39PCi at $599 since you can now place it upstairs again. I tried this on my Harman Kardon AVR 630, to make sure the channel 7 and 8 pre-outs work along with the speaker cable outs to a set of speakers, works fine and dandy.
Enjoy whatever you decide to buy.
Later,
TonyM
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. I did not answer all of your questions, let me continue. The STF-3 has a lighter weight cabinet and less power than the VTF-3, I would not consider the STF-3 in your situation.
I am still thinking a cylinder upstairs is the way to go with your setup. They give you the most for the least amount of money, and are much lighter to move around. When you stick one of these in a corner of a room they are jet black and most people won't even notice it, you could even get a plant to hide it behind, if you decide on the downstairs placement.
Another benefit of the cylinder sub is that it is lighter weight, for less shipping cost than the box subs. A cylinder resists cabinet flexture naturally, so does not need all the bracing of a box sub.
As far as noise using speaker cable output to the sub, it all depends on how clean the amplification from the receiver is, and then the amplification from the sub. This double amplification will amplify any distortion from the first amp, which is relatively low for the H/K 7200.
If you are running 30+ feet, I would run 10 or 12 gauge wire, if you go the speaker wire route.
Hehe, I know it is out of budget but have you looked at the wooden SVS Box subs, the SVS PB1-Plus and the PB2-Ultra? Beautiful wood finishes, and expensive to boot.
I hope I covered everything this time.
Later,
TonyM
mdrew,
Why don't you pm Craigsub for some info on the subs you are looking at.He has done alot of testing on the subject and could give you some very good advice.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. When you said you had no room upstairs for the sub, did that include the smaller footprint of the cylinder? If so, I apologize for continuing to suggest that placement. I was assuming that you had the 16 inches for the cylinder, but not enough room for the much more space consuming box subs.
Later,
TonyM
Dang Tony, I owe you a beer, or two, or three….thanks for all your help. To clarify on the pre-outs for the surround back’s, they are coax. Do I just buy a R/L coax cable and plug it into the sub? I haven’t seen the back of these subs, but thought that they just had one coax input? Or will the coax plug right into the sub’s speaker inputs?
As far as upstairs, it’s actually a small gable roofed dormer. Between the handrails around the loft perimeter, vertical support posts and beams, I’m limited with floor space. The one spot I could possibly put the sub is tucked underneath the roof joists (the roof is a 10/12 vaulted pitch). I might be able to squeeze the cylinder in there, but I’ll have to take a tape to it. It’ll be a bitch to get it into position and I’ll not want to do it more than once. I’ll take some pictures and post them. I promised I’d do that in another post anyway.
Rick, thanks for the tip. I will.
Thanks again for all your help.
Hi Mdrew,
Tony hopes you are well (Could not resist
)... Considering where you need the sub shipped to, Between the Outlaw, the Hsu, and the SVS... pick the one that physically fits your area the best, and you will have a great solution. All three are quite capable...
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. The plugs on the back of the HK and the sub are standard RCA connectors. Go to the Axiom homepage go to products and then look under cables and interconnects, use the coaxial audio cables that they have there, they have several lengths, you will need two of them, one for each channel.
The subs have stereo or mono inputs, depending on your hookup requirements, you will hook them up to the left and the right channel pre-outs that correspond to the M80 channels.
If you visit the SVS website they have pictures of the amplifier on the sub, it will be very clear once you see it.
No problem on the help, it is what we do here.
Later,
TonyM
Thanks guys. I hope I can help out around here one of these days. This mid/high end audio stuff is pretty daunting to me.
I've got some prices back from Outlaw, SVS and HSU.
ONE Outlaw LFM to my door is $760
ONE SVS-PB1-ISD to my door is $785
ONE SVS-PB2-ISD to my door is $1174
ONE HSU-STF-3 to my door is $835
ONE HSU-VTF-3 to my door is $936
I need to get shipping quotes on the SVS cylinders yet. Plus, I need to wander around with a tape measure to see what I can find room for. FYI- I don't have room for two of anything, even little cubes. I'll post some pictures so you know what I'm dealing with.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. Here is the picture of the amp on the back of the SVS, this one is from the Plus model which has the subsonic filter that the PCi models lack. You can see the left and right line level inputs, crossover dial, and the speaker level inputs and outputs if you choose that route.
Hope this helps you visualize the hookups.
Later,
TonyM
TonyM ... That pic was something... Someday I will have to learn how you "computer literate" guys DO all this stuff...
Heres another one for ya.
You mean I have to choose whether I want more switches or more dials?!?!
And another...
Peter,
You are probably right on the money there.I just was messing with Craig.
That Outlaw is weak. I mean it only has two swiches and two dials...
Wid... I am impressed I finally solved Solitaire on my computer...
I see 3 switchs
.
There are.... 3.... switches....
Yeah, I said it again. Deal with it.
Craig,
One thing is for sure you defenitly know your subs though.
Damn. I must need glasses. Oh wait, I already wear glasses.
Damn. I must need a new prescription.
In reply to:
There are.... 3.... switches....
Yeah, I said it again. Deal with it.
.Man I think MarkB really must have pissed you off
.
Three switches, my man!
Yeah, hard to hold a candle to that SVS panel. That one goes to 11.
Hello Craigsub,
Hope you are well. One thing I notice with those other amps is that they use a phase switch instead of a variable phase dial, SVS appears to have an advantage there.
HTML is not that hard just pick up a simple HTML guide book to show you enough to do pictures and things.
Later,
TonyM
I wear bifocals and seen that.You do need some new ones.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. I am glad someone posted the amp for the Outlaw model, it will not work for your application it does not have left and right line level inputs.
Later,
TonyM
I know what happened! I must have had an eye closed and had my face too close to the screen, causing one of the switches to
fall into my blind spot.
TonyM ... I am starting to like the "hope you are well" ... good stuff. Thanks for the tip... though if I DID learn all this stuff, Jack (Ajax) might have a stroke...
wow. you guys waste no time...think I have to learn to post a little quicker.
Sorry, Peter. Didn't realize I was 'piling on'.
Could'nt he use a y splitter and then one rca cable to power the Outlaw?
Yes, He could... that would work just fine.
No stroke, but I'd faint dead away.
Besides, I have to be of some use to you.
Nah, that's just me normal like. Perhaps with slightly low blood sugar. There was a smile in there... really.
Jack... Don't sell yourself short... you have a LOT of ways to annoy .. er.. be of use to me...
I'm the Rodney Dangerfield of the Axiom forum
Hello all,
Hope you are all well. Talking about a Y-splitter, he could put one on the right(mono) jack on the SVS and hook his right Zone 2 pre-out AND the Zone 1 Subwoofer output to the sub and the left Zone 2 pre-out to the left channel, would not have to switch cables around that way. Would switch automatically whenever you go from Zone 1 to Zone 2, but you could not play both Zones at once. Boy this would be alot easier if the HK's had processing capability and sub output for Zone 2, this workaround stuff is a pain.
Sometimes a simple thing like a Y-splitter slips one's mind.
Later,
TonyM
When do you guys sleep? LOL
I'm going to have to digest all this for a bit, but wanted to say thanks first. I'm still figuring out how to hook up my HT. I just love the visual aids. Can you put up a Y-splitter?
I am asuming that the 'low level' inputs are where I hook the sub up to the receiver?
Mdrew,
In reply to:
Can you put up a Y-splitter?
Yes you can.
I meant put up another one of those nifty visual aids.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. Yes, the low level inputs are for the connection from the receiver. Here is a good quality Y-splitter:
These are sold in pairs unfortunately, but are better than the cable versions. You only need one. If you get a cable type you will need one male to two female connectors.
Stick this on the Right(mono) input on the subwoofer, then plug your subwoofer output from Zone 1 and the right channel from Zone 2 into it. Only limitation is you will not be able to use the subwoofer simultaneously for both Zones, only one Zone at a time.
I am curious to see the shipping costs for the Cylinder subs, they are lighter so should be cheaper.
Hope this helps.
Later,
TonyM
Why are they better than the cable ones?
Hello Tleigh,
Hope you are well. I did a search on partsexpress and could not find them, good job! That looks like a great connector at a great price.
Later,
TonyM
Hello Kcarlile,
Hope you are well. You are eliminating 6 inches of wire with an all metal connector, therefore less signal loss.
Later,
TonyM
Is there any danger of signal loss, degradation, etc. when using a splitter? Are you (more) limited in terms of the length of your cable run?
Hello Dmn23,
Hope you are well. All connectors introduce some loss/degradation, the amount depends on the quality of the connector, guage of wire etc...
To prevent signal loss and maintain the gain of the line level output, you would have to use a distribution amplifier. Most of us would not notice the signal degradation of a good quality Y splitter if less than 20 foot distance from source to destination. We compensate by turning the volume of the destination up a bit. If you want to go beyond 20 feet a distribution amp would be highly recommended, along with using RG-6 Coax cable to reduce signal loss.
Later,
TonyM
Any thoughts on Velodyne subs?
I got the CHT-8 - sounds okay but I have only one place to put it so the wife doesn't complain and the toddler doesn't try to climb on it.
I should move it around to try different places to make sure it sounds okay. And then move it back (sigh). Seems a little boomy stuck between the wall and the couch.
We have a very small living room but the price is right.
I place an order for the Outlaw today. Will post back with my impressions.
I spoke with them for a while prior to ordering. They were very helpful and returned my phone calls. But, I was told to not use a Y-splitter from the Speaker Pre-outs into the sub low level (mono) input. I was told that this would fry the amps unless I used an external cross-over. He lost me fairly early in the conversation with the technical jargon, but I came away from the conversation with a big fat don't do it. I was recommended to run the speakers through the high level input/outputs. I'll give it a whirl and see how it goes.
I tried to post some pictures, but the web sight (photobucket) will not let me register unless I do it between certain hours...what a pain in the but.
Hello Mdrew,
Hope you are well. Have fun with your new sub.
Later,
TonyM