I'm trying to decide if I should get the M22ti or M2i for my home office, the room is 20 x 15' but the speakers will be place on top of my desk right next to the computer monitor as true bookshelf, there's no room for speaker-stand of any kind, the listening area is only half of the room. The source consist of a H/K cd player and H/K 3480 stereo receiver with 120w x2 available for these puppies, speakers placement is only 1.5ft away from me so technically the speakers will be played right infront of my face.
Question 1: If I were to get the M22ti, then the tweeter will end up off-axis and about 8~9" above ear level, I'm not concern about the physical size but is M22ti overkill though? occationally I like to play them loud when the wife and kid went out, though not ear-bleeding loud. :-) If I get the M2i then the tweeters will be on-axis to ear level on top of my desk. As you probably know this setup is for 100% music only.
Question 2: I am not going to consider the M3 because I want to add a subwoofer, I have my eyes set on the SVS PB1-ISD, is this a good match to either M2i or M22ti? or is it way overkill for solely music listening in such tight space?
Your going to be sitting right next to them. Get the M2i. I have them at my desk at home and love them.
I second the M2ti suggestion. And I believe, Peter (pmbuko) has a PB1-ISD, and loves it. He's on the West coast so he may not be here until later. Although, he usually posts during the day, too. Hmmmm? Maybe he's out of town (or out to lunch............a permanent condition, in his case
)
I've heard Peter's PB1. It will blow you out of your seat. You may wish to consider a PB-10 for such near field listening, but what do I know?
i would have to go with spiff on this also.. although i have never heard them, the M2ti's are supposed to be awesome sounding speakers that can produce more output than their size would indicate. and especially if they are gonna be pretty much, 'in your face', i would bet the M22's would be overkill.
enjoy which ever one you choose.
bigjohn
Good suggestion on the PD-10, Ken. It's SVS's new entrant in the $400 subwoofer category. Either it, or the HSU STF-2 (also $400) would save you a little dough, and do the job for you real well.
Hello Demasoni,
Hope you are well. An M22 1.5' away would blow you out of your chair, way overkill.
I would go for the M2i, which I own and love. My M2i are 7.5 feet away as a dual center channel in my HT, and I have also tried them at 11 feet as mains, plenty of power in that role also. Would there be a way for you to wall mount them with the full metal brackets Axiom sells?
Later,
TonyM
Wow, thanks for the speedy respond, I heard the Axiom customer service is awesome and didn't realize their customers are just as great!! ;-)
Looks like the M2i is way to go, I thought about the mounting brackets but the wall is occupied with bunch of family pictures and painting so I'll have to leave them on the desk, I wonder if it help if I use double side tape to attach some 1" rubber feets on the base of these speakers?
Just out of curiousity, is there any fiber stuffing inside these little speaker cabinet?
As for the sub, is the PB-10 out yet? last time I heard we have to pre-order them, if the PB1-ISD is way overkill and not needed then I would definitely consider the smaller version PB-10, but from what I heard this entry sub is design specifically for HT with only LFE connection and it's not suited for stereo receiver?
By the way, I just went to SVS website to confirm that the PB-10 indeed only have one LFE connection, and they only start shipping them by the end of October, well....how about the Velodyne VX10? not sure how well this tiny little sub pair with the M2i though..
Ah, right you are. I should shut my trap and let you go with the PB1, which is a fantastic sub.
thanks for the great advice everyone, you guys are the best!!
I have read bad things about the Velodyne VX line. I believe the CHT is better and then you get to their good subs. But the consensus seems to be if money is not an issue - go with SVS or HSU.
I have a Velodyne CHT-8 ($175 with shipping). It is ok but I haven't really worked at positioning it. It is supposed to be decent. The VX line was supposed to be poor.
I had a Velodyne CHT8 which I used with a pair of M3Tis. The CHT8 is only good for about 30-35Hz, but it's quick and very musical - a perfect match for a pair of M3s or M2s. I also have a CHT10 which I use in a dual sub set up with an SVS 20-39. The CHT10 is an excellent sub. If you can find one used in good condition in your local Penny Saver or Classifieds, I'd save myself a bundle and go that way.
Hello Demasoni,
Hope you are well. The M2i come with tiny little stick on clear rubber feet.
Later,
TonyM
That is what I have now - M3s and a CHT-8.
And a very small odd room that makes it hard to place everything.
>>I'm trying to decide if I should get the M22ti or M2i for my home office
I think M2i's would be more than enough. Only question is if there is a risk of you wanting to use the speakers in a regular stereo or HT system instead -- if so, maybe 22s would give you more options...
I bought M2s to have a nice little stereo system up on the 2nd floor. The day after unpacking I realized how much better the M2i's sounded than my main speakers, hauled them downstairs to the rec room, replaced my mains with the M2s and added a sub.
Now I need some little speakers for the upstairs system again
interesting, then I'll do some research on the CHT 10 or 12, I'm going to skip all 8" since most of them sound more like midbass and way too punchy for my taste, from my past experience most 10" sound tight and more accurate than 12", they're suitable for most music except rap and techno.
On the other hand, most 12" have better bass extension and decay, I listen to everything but blue-grass and country, so 12" probably going to be a better choice. I wouldn't mind to plunge down my hard earn money on the SVS if they indeed sound twice or three times better than those CHT, my only concern is the SVS might overpowered these puny little M2i with monstrous bass...
I have a pair of M2i's with a PSB 6i sub (12" driver, 225 watts continuous, 600 watts peak). I don't think a big sub is overkill for these speakers; you just have to turn the level control down a bit on the sub
Seriously, the M2i's are REALLY flat down to 80-odd Hz and then roll off fast so they match up nicely with a big sub.
Bridgman,
this is going to be my one and only stereo, I seldom watch TV ...just watch some DVD on my computer once awhile that's about it. So what kind of main speakers did you replace with the M2i? how big is your rec room and how did those tiny little M2i holding up as the main speaker?
I would have to agree.If you were to calibrate the combo there would be no problems at all.
cool, the 12" sound like the way to go. It never hurt to have a little more headroom just incase I needed it, now I'll have to audition the CHT 12 and see how they sound. :-)
I ordered the M2i and they should be here either tomorrow or Friday, I hope I made the right choice since I have never audition them in person before. :-) worst case scenerio....if they sound too tiny then I'll ship them back and get the M22ti instead, I also hope the Harmon Kardon HK3480 (120w x2) have enough juice to power them.
The previous boxes were some kind of high end "mall speaker". Ahh, here we go -- "10 inch digital monitors". There is a little frequency response curve sticker under the grill showing a flat response from about 35hz to over 23 KHz. Yeah, right. They did cost more than the M2i's though (no, I didn't buy them !!)
We tend to trade things around the family. The LS3s and sub went to a nephew who needed something small; we got a nice fridge and some crappy speakers in return. Don't ask.
The rec room is roughly 13x23 feet. Speakers are centered on the shorter wall. At "wall of sound" levels the speakers sound a bit strained in the midrange (a wierd doppler shift kind of effect) but at any normal listening level (including quite loud) they sound great.
There are only a few recordings where you notice problems at high volumes. The only one that comes to mind is "Mistral Wind" -- the live recording off Heart's greatest hits album. There is a lot of low frequency noise in the recording and I think that makes the woofer flap around a bit too much. Clean recordings will play more loudly than I would ever want.
[THIS JUST IN] The CD changer kicked over to "We Will Rock You" (Queen) so I walked over and cranked it up to see what happened during the stomping & clapping intro. At the loudest volume I would ever want the sound got a bit strained, but it actually sounded more like amp clipping than speakers. The receiver is an HK3270, which I thought was 35W per channel but a just-downloaded spec sheet says 65W per channel. Further investigation is required, as they say.
The sub has the ability to feed back line level to the amp with low freqs taken out -- I haven't cabled for that yet but will try it on the weekend. Right now I'm just using the M2i's natural LF roll-off and setting the sub's crossover around 70 Hz to match.
My guess is that once the low freqs are filtered out of the audio feed the performance at "wall of sound" levels will be just fine. I'll let you know...
My usage seems about the same as yours -- 90% music (all over the map), 10% DVDs, and hardly any TV.
thanks for the reply. :-)
if your HK3270 is putting out 65w, then I would assume the M2i with 120w from the HK3480 should play about 3dB louder and might not sound as strained?
DE, the M2s should be excellent for your use when combined with a sub. The info you received on the PB-10 is a bit misleading; it does in fact have a single line level input and no high level inputs for bass(not just LFE)but that's certainly usable with a receiver which has a line-level sub output. Your 3480(somewhat unusually for a stereo receiver)has a sub output and would be usable with the PB-10 if that attracts you. The Velodyne subs mentioned wouldn't have the extension of the PB-10, but are of course much lower in price.
As far as power, it's unlikely that more than 20-25 watts will be used, even on brief peaks, so don't worry about it.
oh ok, I just check out the frequency respond graph of the PB-10 and it looks just as great as the PB1 minus a few dB across the range and not as much bell and whistle, I can live with that, and it's US$200 cheaper!!
I got a chance to test with the sub's high-pass filtering turned on, ie with the very low notes filtered out of the M2s. I cabled the sub in between pre-out and mains-in on the receiver (used to be driven from sub-out), so the sub's crossover could block out the LF from getting to the M2is.
"Mistral Wind" now sounds mighty fine at the same volume as before. Nice.
Not a huge difference but any track with active bass plus a delicate HF signal (ie most of the music I like
) worked a lot better with the volume cranked. It also sounds like something is a bit different acroos the freq range but I can't put my finger on it.
Had to slightly raise the subwoofer level, maybe to make up for the LF signal from the M2s ?
Looks like the PB1 has line out signals (although I couldn't find a pic of the connectors in the manual), not sure about the PB-10.
Have your M2s shown up yet ?
JB
The different sound is definitely "different good", not "different bad".
Just finished listening to a dozen or so tracks where I hadn't been completely happy with the sound -- seemed like I didn't have the sub & crossover completely right yet -- and they all sound "right" now that I am using the sub x-over to block low notes from the mains.
Squonk and Dance on a Volcano (Genesis) now sound like I remember - seemed a bit spotty before but I hadn't heard them on good speakers for a long time.
Autumn (Strawbs) intro now sounded just right. Again, used to be a bit uneven when the bass synth was gliding up and down even after a lot of crossover tweaking and sub moving ;(
Desiree (off Airborne by Curved Air, still my favorite first album to test speakers with, no idea why) sounded "right" for the first time although there is nothing obviously challenging on the track.
Anyways, happy happy. D, if you think you might need to use the M2s in a "big room normal stereo play loud" kind of environment then please try to get a sub with line in AND line out and the ability to high-pass the line out. I don't think our receivers can high pass the mains internally, you need an AV model for that.
I received my M2i along with the HK3480 on Thursday, didn't get to test it till Friday and Today, the M2i doesn't sound as 'forward' as I'd expected, maybe it's the HK3480 but so far it appears to be kinda laid back to me, and I like it alot. I suspect the M3ti might not suit my taste since it's often being describe as more laid back than the M2i.
I cannot associate 'bright' or 'harsh' with these little jewel even with the Treble cranked all the way up, the HK3480 receiver has a minimum volume level of -80dB to +10dB max. I set them up in my living room 22' x 12', put them 6' away from each other, and 2' away from the back wall, I sat about 7' away from the speakers, then played the Enigma CD, Album - Cross of Changes, track 2 - The Eyes of Truth. I'd cranked it all the way up to about -15dB and these little M2i are very LOUD!! Female vocal is very define and powerful, I'd tried to turn it up a little bit more but it was getting unbearable loud, but absolutely no audible distortion though, and no sign of stressed or strained on these M2i either.
I think M2i can really appreciate 120wpc from the HK3480, they probably will do just fine with as little as 50w from a decent quality receiver, but I suspect it will not sound as good or as loud. The mid bass is decent and get the job done well, but I'll definitely cross them out at 80 to 90hz when I get the Subwoofer. I believe these M2i will play much louder If I high pass them at 90~100hz and feed them more power.
The M2i perform extremely well in my living room, I'm already considering leaving them the way they are now and just get some cheap PC speakers for my small office....haha.
Hello Demasoni,
Hope you are well. I am glad you are enjoying your new M2's, they really are a fantastic speaker. I have mine crossed at 80Hz, and it makes for a seemless transition to the subwoofer. Wait till you here them with the subwoofer, it really transforms them.
Here is a link to a review and the frequency response chart from the M2i review.
Review Link
M2i response charts link
As you can see, this reviewer really like them, and the frequency response on and off axis is fantastic.
Keep on enjoying your new toys.
Later,
TonyM
Welcome to the slippery slope. Sounds like the M2s were the right choice over M3s for you, as they were for me.
The worst description I have heard of the M2i's is "painfully accurate", ie if your recordings suck you will know about it. I find them to be VERY neutral -- it's just that many speakers are not so neutral so going to the M2s (or any similar speaker) is a bit of a shock.
I had been debating about whether or not to move up to bigger speakers in my room and decided last night to stay with the M2s. My reasoning was that with the new cabling* there is a big gap between the volume levels I normally play at and the level where the speakers start to sound strained.
If I felt that I was going to be on the edge of pushing the speakers too hard I would move up to something larger, M22s at minimum. Sounds like you also have enough headroom between normal listening volumes and the limits of the speakers.
If you think the M2i's sound good now, wait until you add a sub. It's hard to describe the difference -- it's much more than just getting some more low notes, the whole soundscape seems to solidify a bit and the last traces of "boxiness" go away.
Enjoy !!
* Just to be clear, by "new cabling" I mean cabling the pre-out/main-in through the crossover in the sub so that the M2i's are actively rolled off at 80hz -- not some exotic new wonder cable that gives me 6db more sound and tighter bass
hey Bridgman, you're right, our receiver do not have any built in xover network, you might want to check out this xover site: http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/cross.asp
I do not know how good were the xover from those subs, but the 1st order setup is pretty much just a capacitor so i'll look for some high quality stuff. I' might cross them at 90hz to roll off a bit sooner.
Thanks for the link. I was just starting to wonder about how good the crossover in the sub really was.
When I bought the receiver I had never even heard of crossovers in a receiver, let alone thought about whether I needed one. This whole Home Theater thing pretty much happened without me knowing about it, I figured there would have been a memo or something...
Just finished reading through the sub manual again. The high level out crossover is 6db/octave passive, ie just a capacitor as you said. The line level out crossover is active, 12db/octave, but seems to be fixed cutoff (80 Hz)and does NOT vary with the low-pass filter feeding the sub's amp. Interesting, didn't know that. The low-pass filter is also 24 db/octave vs. 12 db/octave for the high-pass going back to the line-out jacks.
More reading. Hmpph... this never ends.
did you get to try the first(6dB/octave) and second order(12dB/octave) high pass xover from your sub? how does it sound? :-) From my observation the M2i roll off rather quickly at around 70hz, I think 12dB/octave is a bit too steep for these puppies, 1st order high pass at 80 or 90hz might be ideal the M2i and more than likely would blend better with the sub. Play around with it whenever you have a chance, try to low pass your sub at around 70 to 90 hz and see how it sounds.
By the way, I suspect your M2i sound strained at high volume is more than likely due to underpower, if that is the case then upgrading your M2i to M3/M22 will not help because when you crank it up again it will still sound strained, your receiver is the bottle-neck...not the speaker. :-) perhaps you might want to try getting a higher power receiver or integrated amp, your current HK3270 can be use as a preamp to save some money. Is there anyway you can borrow a higher power receiver or amp from someone and try it out on your M2i?
I'm still taking my time to shop for the right sub, but I wonder what the M22ti sounds like in my living room....hehe.
>>By the way, I suspect your M2i sound strained at high volume is more than likely due to underpower, if that is the case then upgrading your M2i to M3/M22 will not help because when you crank it up again it will still sound strained, your receiver is the bottle-neck...not the speaker. :-)
Good point. I'll see if I can borrow some extra power. I was thinking that the M22's higher sensitivity (95db vs 92db a 1w/1m) would give roughly the same perceived sound level as doubling the amp power, but I always wonder how that can work. If doubling up the woofers gives 3db extra SPL, where does the extra sound level come from above the crossover freq, ie why doesn't the M22 sound duller than the M2 ? I never played much with multiple drivers in my speaker building days so this area of the technology is a bit of a black hole for me.
I will play with the x-over wiring a bit more. Thanks for the ideas. My first thought was that a 12db rolloff from the sub's active crossover plus the M2i's natural rolloff would approximate the 24db/octave rolloff in the sub's lowpass filter but no idea if that is actually a good thing.
One change I clearly noticed after rewiring was that the mid-bass seemed to be more in line with the rest of the frequs. Not sure if there was phase cancellation between mains & sub before or if I just didn't push the sub back into exactly the same position against the wall as before.
I'm going to be down in the US for the week so no experiments until next weekend. Will post back with the results.
Thanks,
JB
I keep hearing that the M2ti and M22ti are extremely accurate and that's why they make some recordings sound bright and harsh. I agree that the frequency response curves measured in an anechoic chamber are very flat, but it's the in-room response that's important.
I have recently auditioned the M2ti, M22ti and M3ti in my small (12' by 13') listening room. This room has many book shelves. It was no surprise that the M2ti and M22ti sounded a bit "tizzy" and harsh on some recordings compared to the M3ti. The M2ti and M22ti did seem to have a little more detail, but it seemed to be a little exaggerated (similar to Grado headphones). I measured the frequency response of each speaker and found that the M3ti was very flat, but the M2ti and M22ti had a 4 db boost from 4KHz to 8KHz. I think this explains what I was hearing. Maybe in a larger room the results would be different.
I'm keeping the M3ti and returning the M2ti and M22ti.
Hello Phaze267,
Hope you are well. This is interesting since the 4 to 8kHz range is being produced by the same tweeter in all 3 models. Did you have the speakers in the same position when you did your frequency sweep?
Later,
TonyM
Yep, tweeters at ear level. I think if you look at the measured frequency response curves, you'll see that the higher frequencies for the M3ti are shelved down while the higher frequencies for the M2ti are shelved up and the the M22ti has a peak at 4KHz. This may explain my results.
I really tried to like the M22ti because I know they are supposed to be better speakers, but whenever I switched back to the M3ti it was a welcome relief from the "analytical" sound of the other speakers.
My point is that you have to consider the listening room when choosing speakers. The M2ti and M22ti may not be the best choice for smaller rooms.
Thanks for the report. I have M3s and ordered M22s - I will have to compare and send back the lesser ones.
Some people say the M22s get less harsh after 40-60 hours of playing them. There seems to be a little somewhat scientific evidence for both sides (and plenty of adherents to both sides) of the "Is speaker burn in real" argument. I won't go there - it is on other threads in this board. Just saying some people thought their speakers or their brains adjusted (perhaps both) and then they liked the M22s better than when first listening to them.
I believe in speaker burn-in. I burned in all three speakers for 48 hours with a burn-in CD before listening. I also agree that your brain can get used to a particular type of sound to some degree. I've listened to the M22ti off and on for almost 30 days now and I still prefer the sound of the M3ti in my listening room. I suggest getting both the M3ti and the M22ti and listen for yourself. It's not very expensive to return them.
Thanks for the tip. Seems like you did due diligence.
SVS is starting to take order on the PB-10, it has very few options, one LFE connection, phase control and gain, that's it. You can not adjust any xover point on this thing so this sub is practically useless other than for Home Theatre. My HK3480 stereo receiver doesn't has any build-in xover either, I suppose I can build my own xover network but man...what a hassle...
So far the M22s are significantly better than the M3s - but I have only played two discs - might just have been good (new) cds.
More later - even if no one cares!
"Significantly" better than M3??? in what way? :-) play the same CD on both M3 and M22 and do a A/B comparison, interesting in knowing more...hehe. I'm toying with the idea to upgrade to M22 as well
I am in the process of doing that. I need to give it some time cause I don't think I have "trained ears." I have listened to Simon and Garfunkel box set from late 90's - slightly more clear and nicer clear bass than the M3s. Rameau SACD with Pinnock and Podger from Channel Classics - again - slightly nicer. Like the M3s but with more detail and smoother mid and treble (surprise surprise).
But I need to listen for a while to say definitively. I will hook up the M3s again on Sunday to A/B them on stereo setting.
As I say - I don't really think I know what I am hearing for sure yet - over time I think I will be more certain.
Don, glad to see that you're enjoying your M22s. I've had them for over two years now and they're terrific for my classical music listening.
DE, again, if you're otherwise interested in the PB-10, the lack of an internal crossover is hardly a major problem, even with your receiver. External sub crossovers are readily available at moderate cost, such as
this simple plug-in.
I like the sound and the looks of the M22s. So does my wife! She said now we need to buy furniture and a house to go with the M22s!
Of course tomorrow she will ask if I am done buying speakers yet...
As I posted before, I've also been comparing the M3ti with the M22ti, and I prefer the M3ti. The M22ti sounds slightly more analytical, but whenever I switch back to the M3ti it sounds more musical to me. The M22ti has a boost in the higher frequencies (1KHz to 7KHz) that makes it sound a little more detailed, but it can also sound a bit tizzy on some recordings. The bass on the M3ti is boosted a little (about 3db) at around 100Hz, which some may prefer or dislike. A lot depends on your listening room. If it's lively (not much furniture or wall hangings), I would recommend the M3ti. Also, keep in mind that the impedance of the M22ti dips to about 3 ohms at 4KHz, so some receivers may have a little difficulty driving them. The bottom line is that they are both great speakers for the money.
I thought my room might be like yours with the shelves and small size - but I have a rug and some wall hangings and to much furniture to make the room accentuate the high notes on the M22s. They both sound great here - the M22s sound more detailed and smooth I think.
I am not going to try them side by side - I need to send the M3s back to get the refund and it is too much work getting behind the reciever in the small corner it is in.
But, in the first hour of transition I thought the M2s were smoother, clearer and more detailed. Not night and day but maybe late afternoon and midday.
In reply to:
Also, keep in mind that the impedance of the M22ti dips to about 3 ohms at 4KHz, so some receivers may have a little difficulty driving them.
No receiver will have a problem driving the M22s.
Do not take the stats so literal. A single spike in the low ohms range does not make it a hard to drive speaker. A sustained ohm rating over a larger range of frequencies is required to put stress on the amplifier section.
I agree that a narrow dip in impedance is not as problematic as a wide dip. I raise the issue because my 35W tube amp seemed to have a little trouble driving the M22ti. Something didn't sound right in the high frequencies, while my solid state high current amp sounded fine. The M3ti sounded fine on both amps. I don't have a receiver to try.
On second thought, I agree with chesseroo. I don't think the narrow dip in impedance at 4KHz should bother even cheap receivers because there's not much energy at that frequency. If the dip was at a lower frequency it might be an issue, but probably not. What I was hearing with my tube amp was probably due to something else. Sorry for the false alarm.
I do suggest, though, that anyone interested in the M3ti and M22ti, to try both, if possible. As I've said before, I really wanted to like the M22ti because it's supposed to be a better speaker, but I prefer the sound of the M3ti. Could be my room, my electronics, my ears. Who knows.
It seems the tube aficianados generally like the M3 better than the M22; perhaps it just (gasp!) matches the tube sound better.
Me, I haven't a clue which Axiom line I like better. I own the M50s and love them, but I also think the M22s are incredible. Obviously more comparison is in order!
In reply to:
a better speaker
Better is a highly subjective word.
Perhaps from now on you should promote the M3 as the better speaker and see how many M22 owners react.
Edit of my previous post
Sorry -"... in the first hours of transition I thought the M22s were smoother..."