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Posted By: expatbrit Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/01/04 05:32 PM
Since some of us have started to discuss this off topic in another thread I thought I would split it off and start again.

After listening to some really badly recorded CD's lately and actually starting to fall out of love with my Axioms I really started to dig into my CD collection to find really good sounding rock albums. My feeling is that if we can get a good list going it will encourage me further to dig into my collection, and maybe introduce me to some new artists as well.
Here are a few to get us started:

Green Day - American Idiot
Foo Fighters - One by One
Rush - Moving Pictures
Soundgarden - SuperUnknown


Edited to include all those M80 ownwers too.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's - 12/01/04 05:44 PM
Rush
Boston
Queen
Eric Clapton
Peter Frampton
Sting
Pink Floyd
BTO
Alan Parsons Project

ok, you can see what decades I like...well actually I like most anything, except RAP, well actualy I used to like the Boogie Boys and Run DMC back in the late 80's...

hhuummmm.. rock albums on the axioms..

as mentioned, pearl jams, 'versus'
queens of the stone age- 'songs for the deaf'(dave groehl on drums)
system of a down- 'toxicity'(produced by rick rubin, all of his sound awesome)
metallica- 'black album'(classic standard)
and if you liked 'moving pictures', grab a copy of 'power windows' and sit back a spell. some dont like this album from rush cause it departs from the heavy guitar riffs, and moves into a more keyboard/synthysized sound, but it is a true masterpiece recording. listen for the geddy lee bass lines, simply incredible.

bigjohn


AC/DC- Back In Black

They just cry for more power! I cant help it!
Better Than Ezra - "How Does Your Garden Grow" and "Closer" Both CD are extremely well recorded and are probably my two favorite rock discs I love to play on my M-60's.

Prince's "One Night Alone" concert CD - specifically Disc 3 - The Afterparty. The recording is so good that you feel like you're at the back of a 200 person club watching Prince play guitar up on stage. Probably my favorite Prince recording of all time.

Though it's not straight up guitar rock, Propellerheads "Decksanddrumsandrockandroll" is an incredible test for your system. Spiff will back me up on this one.

Enjoy-
Kev
Posted By: alou Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/01/04 06:17 PM
Nirvana - Nirvana (greatest hits)
Everclear - The Best Of...
Good Charlotte - The Chronicles of Life and Death

EDIT: I know I shouldn't be in this thread, as I'm ONLY a lowly M40 owner!! :-)
I would add Trapt to the list as well, surprisingly well-recorded. I wouldn't consider Pepper rock, but their albums sound nice and clean through Axioms as well.
For those who remember Sweet, I listened to my "Desolation Boulevard" cd last night, brought back memories..."Fox on the Run"
hehe, thats really interesting BigJohn. Infact Power Windows was the first Album I played on my M60s. I agree, I just love the album for its sound...
Supertramp - Breakfast in America
Toto IV
REO Speedwagon - Hi Infidelity
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (absolutely incredible if your sub is calibrated properly)
Queen - Greatest Hits
Stevie Ray
Little River Band's Greates Hits
Fleetwood Mac
mwc turned me on to the Dire Straits somg "Private Investigation". It's an amazing demo song for the Axioms, or any good speaker. I recommend playing it VERY LOUD. Your Axioms and sub will shine, guaranteed.
Dream Theater - Images and Words
SRV
G3 - Eric johnson , Joe Satriani and Steve Vai

Posted By: Wid Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 02:21 AM
I'll throw in some ZZ Topp,they always sound good on the 80s.
Common, You really want everyone know that you like the way ABBA sounds .The M80's must make ABBA sound GREAT
Posted By: Wid Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 02:46 AM

ABBAS greatest hit does sound pretty good too.........You know you have that disc.Hows the SRV been sounding?
The SRV disc is awesome! Thanks again

No, I don't have ABBA's gratest hits. But my wife does.
Posted By: mwc Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 03:37 AM
Yes, much of that old Dire Straits stuff is very well recorded considering it is compressed and was recorded so long ago.

Speaking of well recorded old rock, some of you old farts (like me, you know who you are) might remember Alvin Lee and Ten Years After. If you are too young to have experienced Alvin Lee's music, do yourself a favor and seek it out if you are a fan of classic rock.

I recommend Lee's album - Zoom. Cut #8 is called Remember Me. This song features an amazing guitar riff. On this recording, Lee and his guitar seem to be in the room with you and the guitar sounds like it's alive! Truely awe inspiring.

All of Lee's recordings sound like the recording engineers took great care to do them right-remarkable considering how long ago they were recorded.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 03:48 AM
Stuart, I wanted to help, but this is the only "Rock" album that I'm familiar with.
The remastered Dark Side of the Moon is great. That crescendo at the transition between Speak to Me and Breathe is worth the price of the CD all by itself.

I don't have anything that will play SACD so just listening in stereo so far (it's a hybrid).
Posted By: mwc Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 04:07 AM
Too funny! you got me on that one. I couldn't wait to click on that link to see what rock music JohnK was recommending.
Bridgeman - The SACD is fantastic.

I picked up the AudioSlave CD last night -this really gives my system a workout, great 'album'.
Posted By: mace Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 02:01 PM
Zakk Wylde-Book of Shadows
Supertramp-Crime of the Century
War-The World is a Ghetto
There’s probably a few dozen more in my collection that are pretty good recordings not on this list, and this list certainly doesn’t encompass my favorite groups or albums. These are the ones that just seam to sound good to my ears……IE: no white noise, crappy mix or too much of one tone. For example, ACDC and Breaking Benjamin are probably my favorite rock groups, but they just don’t sound all that great on my system.

Ten Years After – A Space in Time (outstanding recording considering it was mixed in the 70’s)
Steve Miller Band – Number 5
Joe Wash – But Seriously Folks
Audioslave – (the base will rattle windows!)
38 Special – Drivetrain (their latest, not their best, but a good recording anyway)
Sarah Mclachlan – (shhhh, don’t tell anyone I listen to her)
Kenny Wayne Shepard – The Place You’re In (his best yet, IMHO)
Alison Krauss and Union Station – (I know this isn’t rock, but they sounds so dam good, I had to list them)
Mark Knopfler – Golden Heart
Trans-Siberian Orchestra (Hey! It’s Christmas, and they all sound incredible)
Evanescence – Fallen
Collective Soul – all of them
Hoobastank – The Reason
Arosmith – Toys in the Attic (remastered)
Staind – all of them
The Darkness – A Permission to Land (I’m not a fan of this group by any means, but for some reason, this particular CD just makes me want to party! Plus, it is a really good recording)

Posted By: bray Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/02/04 06:18 PM
Pink Floyd- Final Cut
Dire Straits- Dire Straits
Elton John- Yellow Brick Road- SACD
Doobie Brothers- Doobies Choice
Chris Rea- The Road To Hell
Joe Walsh's I.L.B.T. is an awesome song....
Mike, I am a huge AC/DC fan also. Although I agree that most of their recordings are not "top notch", they are far from terrible. Unfortunately, their "weakest" cd is their best sounding - Ballbreaker. Hail Caesar (track 7) is a standout. Also, try the "Live at Donnington" DVD. It is very well done.

One of my favorite CD's (although not technically rock) is The Commitments Soundtrack. It is so clean and dynamic, you can't help but play it loud.
bigjohn -- it's nice to see another System of a Down fan. I really need to buy some CDs (mine were all stolen) to test this system out, and I think this thread will be just the place to look for CDs

btw, one of my favorites right now is Billy Talent - Billy Talent but the recording is rather bright. (a shame)
lexxen- oh yeah man.. i am a big SOAD fan. i saw them about 5 years ago in texas stadium. they were the opening act at the Texas Jam show. they were almost unknown at that time, their first album had barely been out a year, and i went to the show not really knowing anything about them. needless to say, i left the concert a big fan. then, i got to see them in austin at the music hall in spring of 93. it is a smaller venue, about 4000 capacity, and it was great. you could tell their stage presence had greatly improved, and their sound was much tighter. i managed to ride the pit circle to a good spot up front and camped out the entire show. really awesome. if you get a chance to see them, dont miss it.

rumor has it they are coming out with 2 albums in 2005.. i wait with great anticipation..

bigjohn
Well this is on my M22's but they all sound amazing.

Porcupine Tree - Lightbulb Sun (#1 for me)
- In Absentia
Opeth - Damnation
Blackfield - Blackfield
Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
Spock's Beard - V
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here

Porcupine Tree: In Absentia in 5.1 dvd audio surround...what an album.
Rush: Power Windows/Moving Pictures
Metallica: Black Album 5.1
Pink Floyd: Momentary Lapse../Wish u were here (even tho Dark Side is one of the best engineered, its not as "spacy" as the other 2)
Alan Parsons: Try anything once
Dire Straits: Brothers in Arms (one of the best engineered albums of the 80s)
Dream Theater: Scenes From A Memory/Falling Into Infinity..
Genesis: We cant dance
Metal fans: Any Linkin Park/Staind/Nine Inch Nails
And for the electronica fans: Crystal Method: Legion of Boom 5.1 DVD Audio
Michael Bolton, Kenny G....naah just kidding!
Posted By: Zarak Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/03/04 01:48 AM
In reply to:

I really need to buy some CDs (mine were all stolen)




Well, SOAD's latest is called Steal This Album!, so I guess that is fitting. I like their second disc, with Chopped Suey on it (although I like most of the tracks, not just that one). I didn't like Steal this Album nearly as much, and haven't heard the first one.
These are not so much full CD's, but I have listed some songs that I have always thought sounded great on my Axiom gear and still sound great on my MA's.

Keep in mind however that I'm a metalhead!

Annihilator - Insomniac (CD-Carnival Diablos)
Balance of Power - Hard Life (CD-Perfect Balance)
Black Label Society - Funeral Bell (CD-The Blessed Hellride)
Corrosion of Conformity - Clean My Wounds (CD-Deliverance)
Edguy - The Headless Game (CD-Theater of Salvation)
Hammerfall - Let The Hammer Fall (CD-Legacy of Kings)
Korn - Word Up (CD-Greatest Hits Vol.1)
Faith No More - Stripsearch (CD-Who Cares A Lot)
Megadeth - Crush Em (CD-Risk)
Paradise Lost - Erased (CD-Symbol Of Life)
Pillar - Fireproof (CD-Fireproof)
Prong - Rude Awakening (CD-Rude Awakening)
Staind - Mudshovel (CD-Dysfunction)

I can go on and on but those are a few. I would also highly recommend almost anything by Dream Theatre, Stratovarious and Symphony X........just to name a few!

Last but not least, ZZ TOP!


OT: It's good to see that there are a few Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree fans around the boards. They're two bands that deserve so much more credit than they often receive(and also my two favorites). With PT, I've never heard them on commercial radio but absolutely everyone that I've introduced them to has really enjoyed them. Also, their new cd comes out in early Jan. (stereo and 5.1 mix) so 2005 is off to a good start for new music.
My Back in Black CD was the victim of a scratch that prevents it from playing. I bought the remastered version and it sounds excellent. Too bad the old one won't play, because I'd love to hear them back to back. Based on what I hear now, I think the original recordings were better that we think they were.

Anyone ever compare the "original" to the remastered mix of the same album?
Posted By: mace Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/03/04 04:02 PM
Another addition, Gov't Mule
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/03/04 04:41 PM
The remastered Master of Puppets CD is way, way better than the original. On the other hand, the remastered Ride the Lightning is just about the same; maybe a little brighter. Limitations of the source material, I guess.
Hey spock, I don't usually like rock music that is heavy on guitar, but I totally love "In Absentia". Great music and sounds fantastic with the Axioms! Are you familiar with Dredg? I heard they're pretty good too.

Anyway, for some reason, I've always liked Nine Inch Nails ever since the first album (although the music has changed a bit since then). If you like that type of music, I would highly recommend "The Fragile". Excellent recording.
Sonicfox, how far back in the PT catalogue have you gone? The heavy guitar just started on "In Absentia" so you may want to try to find "Lightbulb Sun", and "Stupid Dream". They're both out of print right now so it's rare that you'll find them in stores. I know that they plan to release them under the new record label, but it'll be some time. If you haven't heard PT's live stuff, you should definitely check out "Warszawa" and "Coma Divine" from their website.

I've not heard Dredg before. I'll be sure to check them out though.
Posted By: LT61 Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/03/04 06:30 PM
Although I don't have the AC/DC disc,...... I own, and have "compared" many other original- v/s- remastered cds.
Generally, the original cd's have more hiss, noise etc......BUT...are true to the original mix.
The remaster's sound "better" most of the time....BUT.....often,..the original mix has been "tampered" with, even re-mixed....(something I don't personally believe in, having heard these songs for so many years).
So I KEEP the old cds too.
Barrett era floyd
hendrix
who
lots o' original british/new york punk/post punk

Nogoodboyo,

Your name sounds Welsh, so I must add The Manic Street Preachers to my list (Generation Terrorists is still my favourite album). Anyone else into the Manics?
Hey expat -- yeah I'm welsh -- from Newport. Used to see the MSP's play at Seiko's (now TJ's) when they were 16 yr olds. Only used to cover old punk stuff then but they were great.
This disc sounds excellent. It claims to be Digitally Remastered. I will say, to hear the intro to "Renegade" with a real sub & speakers is unbeleivable. Most systems just "baff" out - if you know what I mean.
Posted By: Zarak Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/03/04 11:17 PM
In reply to:

I would highly recommend "The Fragile".




I second that. The Fragile is awesome. It hasn't left the changer in my car since I bought it when it first came out 5 years ago or so (except when I bring it inside to listen to it , of course). I'm anxiously awaiting the next release this spring.
good to see some more Nails fans here.. Fragile is also one of my fav Nails album. Also should try the DTS version of the "And All That Could Have Been" DVD.
And how about the Downward Spiral SACD?
Neverhappy your right. Dream Theater is excellent. I saw Mike Portnoy at a drum fest. Unbelievable. Thier albums are something else to keep time with.
K_A
Posted By: Zarak Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/04/04 03:26 AM
I have em both, except I did the DVD-A for TDS. The little bit I heard of the demo disc that you get with the SACD version didn't excite me, plus I didn't have a DVD-A yet so wanted to try one out.
Posted By: alou Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/04/04 04:09 AM
I can't believe no other Canadian boys have mentioned....

The Tragically Hip

I'll admit, their early albums aren't sonically great (but they rock!!), but post-Road Apples, the quality is awesome. Deep, deep bass on every track.
The Tragically Hip 'Day for Night" kicks some serious A$$.
The first time I played this cd on my M60's, I was wondering where all the bass was coming from. During some songs i actually turned the volume down!
Thanks LT. This is exactly why I asked. So far, I've been lucky that I have picked up only remasters that improve the sound quality without chaning the mix. I just know that I'm going to end up buying one that sounds better overall, but deviates from the mix of the original to the point where I hate it.
bigjohn -- I wish I could see SOAD, but unfortunatly my city does not have the population to draw them. Maybe if they come to Winnipeg or Calgary I'll have to plan a road trip
I can't believe nobody mention Dave Matthews Band!! :-) I often use the album Crash to demo speakers.
The Dave Matthews Band sounds fantastic on my M60's! I have all the CD's and DVD's...
Just got done listening to my Doobie Brothers Greatest Hits CD, wow it sounded so good. And the low bass, awesome. I remember some saying that older cd's won't sound as good on Axiom's NOT...

Randy

Randy,
I was listening to The Doobie Brothers 'The Captain & Me' the other day. First time I have listened to it on my M60's. This is a very well recorded cd! I don't think it has ever sounded this good. Brings back memories of their tour many years ago.....
Shaun
Posted By: bray Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/07/04 11:39 PM
As long as you guys have the Doobies out, try The Doobie Brothers "DOOBIES' CHOICE" cd. It has many of their older songs and some more obscure ones. Its a great cd and recorded very well. My favorite cut on it and one that I use when auditioning speakers is "Steamer Lane Breakdown" Give it a try I think you'll like it.
Thanks Shaun, yep I used to have "The Captain and Me" on vinyl, great album...

Bray, I'll have to keep my eyes out for that cd...

Ok, so it seems we've slipped into the 70's...I'm at home today working on the basement remodeling and dedicated HT, and I just took a break and have been listening to "Kiss Double Platinum", "Frampton Come Alive", "Sweet Desolation Boulevard", "Alan Parsons Project", and yes even the guy I named my dog Dylan after "Bob Dylan".

The more I listen to my M60's, the more of a utopia I believe I live in They sure do sing... and the bass, of my heaven, simply spectacular.
Iron Maiden - number of the beast
Judas priest - screaming for vengeance
Pearl Jam - 10
Kim Mitchell - greatest hits
Velvet Revolver
Guns 'n roses - use your illusion
SRV - couldn't stand the weather
Van Halen - 1984
Bon Jovi - new jersey
Audioslave
Pink Floyd - wish you were here
Ozzy- diary of a madman
Since I started this post I will add another:

Crossfade

Really cool sound - hard rock/metal with intelligent/intelligable lyrics.
Posted By: joema Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/25/04 11:35 PM
I see some posts recommending a certain performer, without specifying the album.

In my experience specific albums can sound good (from an audio engineering standpoint, not artistically), and others by the same performer sound bad.

One of the most dramatic differences is the two classic Elton John albums "Don't Shoot Me I'm Only the Piano Player", and "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road."

Both albums were by the same performer, recorded at the same studio, using the same producer, within 1 year of each other. "Don't Shoot Me" has great songs but they're flat, muddy and lifeless from an audio engineering and mixing standpoint -- even the latest digitally remastered CD. By contrast "Yellow Brick Road" is vibrant, clear, almost three dimensional (both stereo and SACD).

They had different engineers, maybe that's why the difference. Beware buying based on artist alone.

My favorite "demo" albums are (not all rock, but these are all superbly-engineered albums):

Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (SACD)
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (SACD)
Roxy Music - Avalon (SACD)
David Bowie - Ziggy Stardust (SACD)
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells (SACD)
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (DVD-A)
Eagles - Hotel California (DVD-A)
Hey,

More NIN fans that are audiophiles! I knew his music appealed to us

Yes, And All That Could Have Been on DTS is SUPERB! As is the 'still' CD, the last track is some of the best stereo imaging I have ever heard.

I hear the downward spiral is absolutely fantasticd on SACD. I'd give it a listen but I'm currently living where it is not sold and where I don't have my speakers

A big recommendation for NIN fans, and any music lover for that matter, is the SACD of UP by Peter Gabriel. Just brilliant!
I've been looking for the NIN "And all that could have been" DTS version. I've been having a hard time finding it. I went and saw this tour in Philly (Perfect Circle opened). It was awesome. I went into the show looking forward to seeing Perfect Circle and came out blown away by NIN.
Anyway, I just bought the Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival DVD (has a DTS setting but it's not advertised on the box). It has some awesome performances not to mention fantastic sound. My favorite track is Santana and Clapton playing 'Jingo'.
Posted By: Zarak Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/29/04 05:52 PM
I don't know what the date is going to be in Philly for NIN this year, but I'm going. I hope perfect circle opens again. I've never seen NIN, so I can't miss this one. Do you live in Philly? Whereabouts?
I live in Lancaster County about an hour and a half south west of Philly. I didn't know NIN was touring again. I'm a big TOOL fan so when we went to the last NIN show I was only really looking forward to seeing Perfect Circle. Didn't really give much thought to NIN...but Trent definitly changed my view point of NIN.

I just got a SVS PB10-ISD sub (never owned a sub before) and I was looking for the NIN DVD (in DTS) because I figured it would have some real kicking bass to show off my new sub.
SonicFox,
I have two dredg discs...Leitmotif and El Cielo. I can't say I'm a huge fan of El Cielo but Leitmotif is probably one of the best CD's I own.

Any TOOL fans on here? The Lateralus disc is probably one of the best sounding CD's I own. Here's my list of best sounding stuff I own...
1. Metallica Cunning Stunts (DVD)
2. Led Zepplin (DVD)
3. Roger Waters In the Flesh (DVD)
4. Clapton Crossroads Benefits Concert (the Nov. 2004 edition) (DVD)
5. TOOL - Lateralus (CD)
6. Grateful Dead - The Closing of Winterland (DVD)
7. Janes Addiction - Ritual De Lo Habitual ...Janes has a DVD out but the sound, unfortunately, is sub par as far as DVD's are concerned.

Question: Does the Dark Side of the Moon SACD played on a regular CD player (don't have SACD yet) sound significantly better then the original Dark Side of the Moon on CD?
the SACD of darkside will only play on a regular cd player if it is a dual-layer disc.. in other words, it has BOTH formats on the disc, the sacd, and the regular. i would think that the sacd played on regular cd player would not be much better than the standard version.. however, the SACD of darkside, played on a SACD player, is simply AWESOME. the disc creates its own environment. voices and sounds seem to come from all directions. 'big gig in the sky' becomes a swirling vortex in the center of your living room. guitars breath and the instruments seem to come alive. to me, it is the reference standard to which all sacd's should be compared. i am amazed everytime i play it.

bigjohn
I'm pleased Pink Floyd is still setting the standard for amazing sound quality. Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to enjoy it!! I may be looking for a SACD next Christmas. I'm kind of disappointed though. I thought more artists would would take aim at a better medium but the number of SACD's, around my area anyway, is slim pickins.
Posted By: Zarak Re: Best Rock albums on your Axiom M60's/M80's - 12/29/04 09:44 PM
Check out www.nin.com. Trent is planning on releasing an album around March time frame, with a tour to follow. No dates announced yet.
the website Acoustic Sounds probably has one of the better selections of SACD disc's. along with some great vinyl if you like to spin records.

go check them out.

bigjohn
They certainly do have a great selection, but full MSRP on pretty much everything. Bleck...full retail is for suckers.


TOOL Lateralus is AWESOME. I listen to it all the time. It has an excellent sound and is HDCD

Hey NIN fans, do me a favor if you have an HDCD player. Pop in the right CD of The Fragile and tell me if Into The Void and Where Is EVerybody is HDCD. When I play it on my laptop, Windows Media Player tells me it's HDCD just like when I listen to Lateralus. I have the north american release of the fragile, not the Asian release.

If you read this link:

http://www4.head-fi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67082

it says Into the Void and as well Halo 13 (the day the world went away single) is HDCD. I'll have to check that out when i get my hands back on my CD collection!
Just got the DVD-A of The Eagles - Hotel California, I would say this rivals DSOTM on SACD as the best multi channel recording out there, really awesome to listen to LOUD.
I was starting to think I was the only insane Tool fan on here, but I guess not! I've only had my M60s for about a week, so I haven't had much time to listen to that much of my music collection. However, I have been playing all of the Tool albums pretty constantly, and man does Lateralus sound great. It's always been one of my best sounding CDs, and now it's just that much better. Every song on the album sounds amazing, but Ticks and Leeches, Lateralus (love Danny's drumming here), Disposition, and Reflection stand out most to me. Ænima is also great, especially Forty Six & 2, jimmy, and Third Eye.

I also enjoy all three of the A Perfect Circle albums on these wonderful speakers.
I must make a correction about NIN - THE FRAGILE
The song that is HDCD is WHERE IS EVERYBODY when i play it on wmp9, not INTO THE VOID

I hear HALO 13 - THE DAY THE WORLD WENT AWAY single is also HDCD

I'll have to double check
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