I am considering the following amps for M22ti:
NAD C371
Musical Fidelity X-50 mono-block
Creek Audio 5330 SE
Any comments or suggestions?
Regards,
Audiojr
I do not like when no one replies to Q's so I will help you out.
All the amps you have listed are good.You do not need to sacrifice hard earned cash to get good sound and the Music Fidelity Mono's I think are on the expensive side.
Axiom has pretty effiecient speakers ,so I do not think you need worry about power output. A Clean 50 watt per channel Amp should be sufficient.If you can find a Class A amp that is the best!
I have had NAD equiptment and I found I favor Rotel over them and if you really want to save on it I bet there are enough used Rotel Amps around to be happy with to save a bunch!
Creek is really good equiptment also.
I like to find great used Amps and pre-amps that are almost ridiculously low priced compared to buying new.The one place you do want new is in Tape Decks because of the Heads wearing and speakers because of the Drivers can become defective after a long time.More moving parts the less likely the product's wear and tear!
Hope that helps!
The last statement "The More moving Parts the more likely they will fail!"
Checkout B&K Amps also!
Hey Everyone,
I was wondering about amplification for the M22s myself. My budget is a little tight so I am thinking of going with the NAD C350 (~$350). Will these be powerful enough to make the 22s sing?
Thanks!
I am also looking to pair an amp with some M22s or M3s (not decided yet, but leaning toward the M22s).
Considering whether to jump into the 5- or 6-channel HT receivers (like an Outlaw 1050) or just go with a nice used 2-ch "audiophile-like" integrated amp for now and let the multi-channel HT market settle a bit more before being thrust into it. (By "audiophile-like" i mean I can't actually afford what might be considered audiophile, but would like to get as close as possible for my money.)
Any info from users on the following, concerning music capacities (ie, strengths of the Arcam vs Outlaw on music, etc), would be appreciated.
2-ch:
Arcam Delta 290
Cambridge A500
Jolida SJ-102b integrated (or is it 502?)
Decware Zen 84c (though not integrated, i heard it was very good & semi-affordable)
Antique Sound Labs pieces
multi:
Outlaw 1050
????
I'm basically starting from square 1 (just a multi-disc Onkyo cd player & a dvd player), and am trying to do lots of research before I spend what little I have (~$300-500 for an amp). I've settled on the Axioms, just have to find a decent receiver or int amp. Any other suggestions welcome!
Thanks for your time.
Eric, as far as the speakers, I'd definitely suggest the M22s, even if you're not going to use a sub at first.
Unless you think that it'll be a long time before you get into multi-channel, I'd suggest that you consider a 5 or 6-channel receiver in your price range and that you forget about an "audiophile" amp because it won't sound any better. There are plenty of fine choices available, e.g. Denon 1803, HK 225, Kenwood 6070, Onkyo 600, Sony DA2ES, Yamaha 5060.
I can't give you a comparative description of the different 2-channel amps you've listed. However, I can tell you I have the Cambridge A500 and P500 bi-amping a pair of M60's, and it sounds fantastic. I purchased and set-up this system in our living room specifically for music (we are going to purchase/set-up a HT system in our Rec Room in several years time). If you are considering a 2 channel system, you can't go wrong with Cambridge Audio components...lots of bang for the buck!
I don't know much about the Creek 5350, but the 5350se is the special edition version and it's hard to beat, so I imagine the regular version is very good as well.
My amp is 40watts per channel and it handles the m22's fine. When looking for equipment I've found that it pays to do an exhaustive search using google. I've also found that if in the US you can save a lot be purchasing through Canadian dealers.
One sight in particular if you're looking at Cambridge Audio is http://everestaudio.com/ remeber there prices are in Canadian. Some prices include shipping, but call first. Another great place is the AudioShop in Ottawa http://www.audioshopcanada.com/ If you're considering Axiom speaker definitely give them a call. They sell them so they can really help you with matching them to a good amp.
The money you can say is not little either. My brother-in-law just ordered a new turntable for $250 less than he would have paid if bought locally.
Thanks for your input, guys.
I've done some ad searching, and think I may have found an arcam delta 290 w/ phono stage for $325 shipped, so that's within my price range.
I sort of wanted to end up with a designated music amp and a designated HT amp anyway, so this way I'll be able to take advantage of any more advances that come up down the line in HT receivers by waiting for now. For the stereo amp, I just wanted to make sure it was a quality item that'd last for many years as a music system, and it sounds like the arcam should do that well.
For HT stuff, I'll just wait a while and pick up a used one from someone. The music sound is more important to me than the HT sound; as long as the HT is in multi-channel and relatively decent (Denon or so), it'll basically be fine with me. But I'm a music lover first & foremost.
And I'll most likely go with the M-22s. They seem to be the bookshelf favorite here.
Thanks a lot for your advice!
Eric
Yeah, the Cambridge sounded really good, and very affordable. If anything falls through with the arcam i've found, I may go ahead and reconsider and look for a cambridge a500 or a3i, as they seem very decently priced.
Duff, thanks for the referral!
The M22TiSe work nicely with the A500. I've demoed and sold that combination alot. 'Lively' sounding. Try it with some Kimber 4PR speaker and some very heavy stands. Amazing transparency.
Marc,
You tried the M80's with the A500. Just curious if its got enough juice to drive the M80's. I know its only rated at 40WPC, but it seems to be a decently priced quality amp and am just curious if its something I should consider for the 80's.
Regards...Amer
Amer, the specs for the Cambridge A500 are 65 watts rms @ 8ohms, and 85 watts rms @ 6 ohms, with speaker impedance rated at 6 - 16 ohms. When purchasing my gear from Audioshop, the staff (including Marc) said the A500 should have no problem driving the M80's ("an easy 4 ohm load"). However, I decided to play it safe and go with the M60's, along with the fact that the M80's may have been a bit of overkill for the size of my listening room. I've since added a Cambridge P500 power amp, and Dahlquist sub to my system...sounds real sweet!
Cheers.
Nice setup you have there Joe. The P500 is another option I am considering at the moment as well. I don't really need and integrated amp like the A500, as I can just use the preouts of my Onkyo 787 into the P500 to drive the M80's.
I am just curious if the P500 will drive the M80's. I'm not looking for mind blowing loudness, just better quality amplification at moderate levels than what I'm getting from my receiver. The P500 seems to be a reasonably priced, quality product.
I think I'll ask Marc if he has tried this setup in his shop and what he thought of it.
Thanks.
Looks like I am coming down to two choices.
1) Keep the 787 and get a P500 to drive the M80's.
2) Ditch the 787 and get the new Marantz 7300 receiver.
Both options will probally cost me the same amount of coin ($500, as I have a buyer for the 787). Just wondering what will give me best bang for the buck when listening to 2 channel music.
I just bought the Marartz7300ose last week and then I found out there were complaints (hometheaterforum.com) about a tweeter hiss at very low volumes with the analog cable hookup and with no music with the digital cable. I heard the hiss after receiving the receiver only with certain CD/DVD's. It went away in a few days and then my Kimber 4VS arrived and what a beautiful receiver. Cables do make a difference!!
Might the Cambridge Audio A300 work with a pair of M22ti bookshelves?
I've also been considering a Marantz PM7000 Integrated Amplifier.
Actually, I just put out a bid for a Dynaco SCA-80 integrated amp.
(http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynaco/components/SCA80/index.html)
Do you think a pair of M22ti's will work well with this amp?
I guess the M22's will sound fine with the Dynaco, but why choose this antique transistor amp??? The solidstate technology was still very immature in that era. You have nothing in them that are "better" than today's el cheapo amps/receivers. Personally, if I were to go back to '60s-early '70s, I would choose a quality tube amp. They may be more expensive, but they have much more "fun factor" inside...
Cheers!
If I really get the bug to learn more about servicing the old tube amps, I might pair up an PSA-3X with an ST-70. However, I guess I'm taking a leap of faith that even an older amp like the SCA-80, though it used a technology that was new for the time, executed that tech well and thus performs better than much of the cheap stuff. I could be wrong though.
sushi, I let the old dynaco go to another bidder. I took your advice (seeming that I didn't have much of an argument) and looked for other reactions to the amp. Most people who were experienced with the dynaco tube amps seemed to not take a liking to their solid state offerings. Some even claimed that the solid state amps eventually killed the company. However, I'm guessing it had more to do with their later cost saving measures.
So, thank you for the heads-up.
Some day, I still wouldn't mind learning to rebuild an old ST70 and pair it with a bottlehead foreplay, but for now, I'm still on the lookout for a higher powered amp.
I was quite interested in the nOrh SE9 amp, rated at 9 watts per channel. However, I'm a bit worried about what options I have for speakers, as no offering from axiom would really work that well with such low wattage. Of course, the sound quality from such an amp would be top notch. However, although I was considering a pair of omega ts2 horns, I fear that they wouldn't accent the sort of music I listen to. Folk, Jazz, Rock and Roll, or even Blues would sound great on such a setup though.
I was recommended a pair of Paradigm Stuio 20's which are less efficient than axioms. And, I was also considering a pair of nOrh 6.1s.
Importantly, however, I'm still looking for a good amp. The harman kardon HK650 sounded like a wonderful option, but I don't believe they're being produced any more. Nowadays, HK makes a similarly priced stereo reciever. Is the sound quality comparable?
Here's the rest of my list:
Rega Brio - $400
www.rega.co.uk
38w RMS per channel into 8ohms
Sanken 150w output transistors
Cambridge Audio A500 - $400
www.cambridgeaudio.com
85w RMS per channel into 6 ohms
Marantz PM7000 - $400
www.marantz.com
95w RMS per channel into 8 ohms
Arcam Diva A65 - $500
www.arcam.co.uk
40w RMS per channel into 8 ohms
What would be the best choice? I would be interested in rotel or creek, but they seem a bit beyond my $400 price limit.
If you're willing to buy used, audiogon.com has some listings for Creek and Rotel integrated amps in that price range.
alazanto,
If this is your first purchase of a "serious" integrated amp, then I would avoid tubes altogether. Due to their low damping factors (high output impedances), most tube amps are far from neutral when driving real-world loudspeakers; the frequency response will partly follow the speaker's impedance curve, especially in the bass region. I believe that what people call "tube sound" comes, in part, from this, as well as from the non-linear components such as output transformers, plus the relatively shallow negative feedback used in most tube amps (because of their low open-loop gains). These also constitute what I had called the "fun factor" -- depending on your taste and amp/speaker/room matching, a tube amp
could produce subjectively better sound than modern solidstate amps that tend to be completely flat and accurate in objective measurements. In other words, the technical inaccuracy exhibited by tube amps are, in general, subjectively quite benign, as many tube fans will attest.
That said, if I were you, I would still start with a plain-flat-and-accurate, good solidstate amp first. After all, you want to have a solid "reference" system first, right? Especially given that the virtue of the M22ti is its superb accuracy, I would first mate the speaker with a highly neutral, colorless amp.
Among the candidates you listed, I do not personally appreciate the fact that the Marantz has the
minimun recommended speaker impedance of 8 ohms; although it will be fine with the M22's, I have to say that the amp might be less versatile than the British brands you listed. But you may or may not mind about this; other than that, the Marantz certainly has the highest rated power, which will never hurt.
Cheers!
Al, I certainly agree with sushi in regard to tube amps. To the extent that in some circumstances there is a "tube sound", that sound is less accurate. Apparently you're talking about a stereo-only system, but unless you're pretty sure that you're not going to want multi-channel in the future you should consider one of the fine home theater receivers which are available in that price area. Even if you're certain about stereo-only, there's no good reason to restrict your choices to those integrated amps. They have no better sound than high quality stereo receivers such as the Denon DRA-395 which you can find for about $250(or the HK you mentioned). Also, the AM-FM tuner included shouldn't be ignored.
In reply to:
Also, the AM-FM tuner included shouldn't be ignored.
Very true. I usually listen to my local classical station on the way back home after work (in case anybody cares, the station is
wrr101.com - they broadcast on the net, too). If my favorite piece is on-air when I am arriving home, naturally I want to continue listening to the rest of the piece at home (one problem of classical music: pieces tend to be long! LOL). But I do
not have a tuner in my main system! I usually end up turning on my clock radio (btw, mine
is stereo at least! heh-heh) or my daughter's boombox...
So I know I need a tuner, but just have not been able to convince myself into buying a separate tuner just for that.
Well... I look forward to buying a multichannel receiver soon!
Cheers!
I was looking into the higher end, Harman Kardon stereo reciever. However, if there is a comprimise of quality by including a tuner, I would prefer not to go with it.
I might be interested in getting a satellite radio tuner some day, but the selection in the states seems poor yet.
I would like a radio tuner though, and if a Harman Kardon stereo reciever sounds as good as their old integrated amps (630, 650, 680) I would be very willing to buy one!!!
The Denon PMA-2000MkIV R seems like a very new, but interesting offering. However, I wonder how it sounds?
I should probably add that I'm not really interested in several channels because I'm not very interested in movies. I music, I'm reading anyway, that its more important to focus on the soundstage than the surround sound. However, if I were to get into movies, I would probably want to go with a good multi-channel system. My experience with dolby pro logic scarred me for life, however.
Hi Alz..
I drove a pair of M3tis with a 5 watt per channel SET Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT and can only say the combination sounded wonderful. I now use a pair of M50Ti-like Michaura M66s (2 x 6.5" drivers, titanium tweeter), a Vance Dickason Titanic amplified subwoofer and the combination is just terrific.
I have a HT/music system consisting of an Onkyo 797THX receiver, Klipsch KLF C7 center, a pair of M60 like Michaura M665s up front, a pair of M50 like Michaura M66s side surrounds and a pair of Mission 77ds bipole speakers in the back (driven by a humongous silver faced Kenwood KA9100 outboard amp), a pair of subs (Klipsch LF10 1640 watts and a Velodyne CHT100 through an Outlaw ICBM-1 bass manager) sourced by a Toshiba SD9200 DVD Audio player.
I love the sound of the high power solid state system, but for sweet music with terrific soundstaging the 5 wpc tube 2 channel system is simply wonderful and my favorite.
I sort of laugh when I hear folks put down tubes especially when they go slack jawed after actually hearing a well integrated system. My advice - go listen to a good SET tube system. The nOrh SE9s have been well reviewed and wouldn't have any problem at all driving any Axiom speaker from the M3Tis on up.
In reply to:
However, if there is a compromise of quality by including a tuner, I would prefer not to go with it.
There is absolutely no technical reason that an integrated tuner causes degradation of a receiver’s audio quality. Also, the cost of a digital tuner module (usually by OEM) is so tiny today that the necessary cost cutting in other places should be negligible for given price.
In reply to:
I should probably add that I'm not really interested in several channels because I'm not very interested in movies.
I do not know how long it will take for the multichannel audio formats (SACD, DVD-A etc) to get to their prime time, but they are coming. Even if you are not interested in movies, you might want to consider them…
In reply to:
My experience with dolby pro logic scarred me for life, however.
Was it Pro Logic II? I found that Pro Logic II is much better than the original Pro Logic; also setting the processor in the Music mode (as opposed to Movie mode) is very important when use it for music. My own brief experience with Pro Logic II (for classical music) was quite positive.
So, these are some of the reasons to consider a receiver as well. I concur with JohnK in that, in today’s market, traditional stereo integrated amps are increasingly marginalized into a small niche (or replaced by those inexpensive mini- or micro-systems). This means that you likely get much more bang for buck from more common, major-brand multichannel receivers. Although the final conclusion can only be drown by your own ears, there is no technical reason to assume that those mass-marketed products are inherently inferior in sound quality to more esoteric “audiophile” stereo amps within the same price range. That said, the psychology of “pride of ownership” is of course an entirely different issue.
Cheers!
the dynaco is a great amp. even at ebay prices they are a bargain. i have some norh se-9 arriving in april that i feel are a great match, although the st-70 is better. you will need a pre-amp with the dynaco though. the norh will perform well but the output will be limited due to it's 9 watts.
cheers,
george
I would also be really interested in pairing a power amp with an Electronic Tonalities Foreplay amp.
Are there any decent offerings in the $300 price range? I was considering pairing a Cambridge Audio P500.
I listen to some electronic music, which may not sound really good with a tube amp. However, I notice that both the Axioms and Paradigms are a little bright, so a preamp like the Foreplay would do a nice job of smoothing the sound out a bit, giving me a nice smoothness and clairty.
I did see a really beautiful rebuilt ST-70 on audiogon selling for $599, however, this is a bit beyond my price range.
In a tube offering however, how do Axioms compare to a good pair of horns, like the omega TS3's or TS2's?
Hi. I've been considering selling my 3-year-old NAD 317. It's a wonderful integrated amp, using the highly acclaimed NAD 214 as its amplification stage (you can add another 214 -- sometimes can be found for sale on eBay or Audiogon) for a perfectly matched pair of monos or for bi-amping should you ever updgrade speakers. And despite what some will tell you, my opinion is that there is a HUGE difference between the sound quality of this piece (like most good two-channel equipment) and mass-market recievers, even from the better brands. E-mail an expert reviewer and pose that question (you'd be surprised how often they answer -- that's how I found out about Axioms, which I'm considering buying), or simply talk to a trusted friend who knows audio. The imaging, soundstage and warmth of this amp bely it being a solid-stater. It's rated (very conservatively) at 80wpc @ 8 ohms but can easily handle 2-ohm loads with massive peak wattages. It's a beast with beautiful sound and expensive, high-quality components throughout.
I've saved up enough to go for some maxed-out, high-dollar separates, I don't have space for two systems and I can't bear to let this thing sit in a closet, so if you're interested in a bargain, talk to me. I'm sure I'll let it go for below $400 (it's in perfect condition, as is remote, etc.). It cost $800 new. Check various reviews online to get a feel for it. My personal view is that it's been for years one of the best bargains in audio. It was just recently replaced with the NAD 370, which is quite comparable. Its sound has been nothing but perfect since Day 1, and honestly, I think it keeps sounding better -- probably because it has relatively few hours on it for a 3-year-old piece and has just really come into its own. One more thing, the 317 has that very proper British sound -- very warm and neutral in mids and highs, so it shouldn't present listener-fatigue problems some people have expressed with certain Axioms.
Best of luck whatever you decide.
Regards,
John in California.
I am enjoying my M22ti with a pair of Antique Sound Lab Wave 8 tube monoblocks - they sell for about $375 a pair. They put out about 8 to 10 watts, and work very well with the M22ti because they are efficient speakers. My listening room is 20 X 14 X 8 and their is plenty of volume - unless you plan on holding a rave, I'd recommend ASL Wave 8s - Chr3is