Finally I got my receiver and held my breath to try out my first audio system with M60. The first song that I tried was "once upon a dream" by Linda eder in "jekyii & hyde". Unfortunately, the sound is not as good as I expected. I saw at some forum that people found a second life of their CD collection when they set up their new system. I do not feel the same way. especially when I used very low volume, I did not find any amazing improvement of the sound as compared to my JVC mini bookself steoro. My feeling is that the sound is flat at low volume.
I know there are a lot of happy M60 owners here. I am thinking I should have learned more from you guys. What I should do first is to figure out what is the weakest point of my system. Here are the components:
Speakers: Axiom M60 (a pair, only two channel)
Receiver: Denon AVR-2105 (7.1 A/V receiver, 90 watts per channel at 8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.08%THD), SRP $649, bought at $408 through Internet dealer
Soundsource: Denon DVD-1920 (univesal player, can play DVD, CD, SACD, Mp3, etc..Burr-Brown DSD-1608, 24 bit, 192 kHz Audio DACs with discrete decoding of PCM and DSD audio signals), SRP $349, bought at the same price
Audio interconnect: Acoustic Research RCA interconnect (from CD play to receiver), gold-plated, 3 ft, $24. (I am using the DAC circuit in the DVD-player instead of the receiver since I thought the Burr-Brown DAC is supposed to be better)
Speaker cable: Axiom, 9 ft for each channel, bare wire on speaker side, Axiom banana connector on receiver side.
Another major weak point may be my CDs and MP3's most of which do not have audiophile quality.
The only other system that I have audited is a pair of $700 paradiam speakers (cheaper than Axiom M60) with $3000 B&W seperate amps and a $300 NAD pure CD-player. At the time of audition, I thought the system was not good, expecially the speakers. But compared with my own system now, I am thinking that Paradiam system is even better. I tend to believe it is caused by the difference of amps. I am not sure if it is the AVR -2105 receiver to blame. One last major reason for all this may be that I have had such a high expectation on the audio system. With a $2000 system, maybe that is it.
Do you have the speakers set to large and no sub ?
I'm thinking the factory default on the 1920 should have the speakers set to large. I *think*!
It sounds to me like a setup problem somewhere.There's is no way a JVC mini system will sound better at any volume than his current set up.Something is wrong somewhere.
In reply to:
I am using the DAC circuit in the DVD-player instead of the receiver since I thought the Burr-Brown DAC is supposed to be better)
Check the settings in the player.Also check the settings in the receiver.
I don't think there are any obvious weak links in your equipment... my first thought is also configuration or room characteristics.
A couple of questions, some obvious but...
1. Have you had a system in that room which you felt DID sound really good ? Some combinations of room dimensions can result in fairly uneven response unless you really work on speaker placement.
2. Are you 100% sure the M60s are wired in phase ? The most common cause I have found of "these speakers suck especially at low volume" is being wired out of phase. Please don't be offended but some really knowledgeable people get the wires mixed up occasionally
3. Can you tell us a bit about the room, particularly dimensions, floor covering, and what is on the walls beside the speakers and behind your ears ?
John
Could be "charact-ear-istics.
Controversial but not unheard of.
True. There are also the other contentious little issues like break-in (which I believe it but which still seems to be worthy of a good tarring and feathering whenever I mention it
).
I just find that in my own house there is such a huge difference in how all my speakers sound depending on the room. Up in the master bedroom (good dimensions, no openings other than conventional doors) the bass is great even with M3s and the imaging is astounding. Down in the basement (double-square dimensions, big openings for bar and hallways) the imaging is lackluster and the bass response is horrible even with the big honkin' SVS subwoofer.
If I wasn't moving to a new house soon I would do something about the basement acoustics but I have sworn off fiddling with audio systems until I get this house cleaned up and listed for sale.
Back to the original post :
One thing worth mentioning... I do find the M60s sound relatively crappy with a lot of the modern radio stations which heavily compress the audio to sound good on car radios. It was enough of a problem to really bother me until I found that *some* late night music broadcasts run with much less compression because the target audience is at home with good speakers or headphones... THOSE programs sound fantastic on the Axioms so I stopped worrying.
I would be careful with the MP3s -- I'm not set up to play them through the HT system but they might not be good for evaluating the speakers.
"One thing worth mentioning... I do find the M60s sound relatively crappy with a lot of the modern radio stations which heavily compress the audio to sound good on car radios. It was enough of a problem to really bother me until I found that *some* late night music broadcasts run with much less compression because the target audience is at home with good speakers or headphones... THOSE programs sound fantastic on the Axioms so I stopped worrying."
John, just curious if you have considered either XM or Sirius satellite radio with your system. I know XM has a quality tuner for the home system, I don't know about Sirius.
Don't mean to hijack the thread by any means.
Good question. I haven't really looked into it but probably should...
There is some kind of intense political wrangling going on up here in Canada about satellite radio, haven't really been able to grasp what the issues are although I suspect Canadian Content is at the heart of it somewhere. I don't *think* companies are allowed to sell satellite radio receivers up here yet but not 100% sure.
Another thing to check-are the straps between the binding posts in place? If they're not you may just be running the woofers or the mids/tweeters.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Wid, I did set the front speakers R/L as large and all the other speakers including sub as None in the Denon receiver. I also set the receiver as Direct CD or steoro mode when it amplifies the analog audio signal from the DVD.
I checked the DVD-player manual again, I don't think I need to do any setting if I just use it as a 2-channel CD-player.
Bridgeman:
1. I don't know what is DID sound. I did try some audiophile CDs on this system and some of the tracks really sounds good at loud volume, but again I was not feeling I was melt by the sound.
2. I think I am sure I wire M60 in phase. The red outlet in speaker is connected to the red inlet on receiver, same for the black outlet and inlet.
3. The room may be the key. Actually I bought this system for my future home. That is why I chose a floor standing speaker. Right now the system is in the main bedroom of a two-bed room apartment. The floor of the room is 10 ft by 14 ft with thick carpet. Nothing is on the wall. I just put the two speakers 6 ft away. A queen size bed is behind me.
I really hope I just have some setting problem or room dimension problem. Please help me out if you see some clues. Thanks
Is it possible to move the system to a different room just to try it out ? You have a first rate system there so it might very well be the room.Nothing is" weak "in your system imo.
Settings sound OK at first glance. In my rooms I find the M60s need to be a couple of feet away from the wall to sound their best, which is going to be hard in your room.
If your bedroom is like mine I imagine the "listening position" is sitting on the edge of the bed ? If you are sitting at the head of the bed with a bare wall behind you then try (don't laugh) holding a pillow behind your head to block the reflections from the wall behind you. In my bedroom that makes a huge difference in imaging... I basically don't get any unless I'm either far away from the wall or treating the reflections with the pillow.
Let's see... other things to try :
- keep the speakers away from the side walls as well as the corners, but try to have different distances to back and side walls. I know this is hard in a 10x14 room but you do get cancellations (frequency response dips) at a frequency determined by the speaker-to-wall distance so it really helps to keep the spacing different..
- on the other hand, you want the two speakers to have pretty much the SAME separations from walls so the two channels will sound the same
- speaker separation should be approximately the same as distance from speakers to ears, or a bit less... in your room this means the speakers are probably going to be fairly close together
Do you have the speakers on the 10' wall or the 14' wall ?
It is REALLY hard arranging a room to be useful as both a bedroom and as a listening room. In my case, I had to put the bed sidewards against the wall in order to get a good listening arrangement, but didn't like that for sleeping... and I *have* to sleep ;(
>>I don't know what is DID sound
Sorry, DID is just "did" in big letters, ie have you heard a system in that room which did sound good, ie which had the sound you like ?
There are two parts to the question, obviously :
1. Is the room the problem ? (it's probably at least part of the problem)
2. Other than "good", was there any particular thing you were looking for from your new system, ie bass, imaging, clarity ?
I know that sometimes I can find the sound of a good stereo a bit disappointing, for example...
No Doubt -- Hella Good -- on my crappy car radio, the combination of synthesizer bass, electric bass, percussion and breathing blur together to make a really neat sound. You really have to pay attention to figure out where the sounds are coming from.
On my upstairs system (HK receiver, M40s, everything is crystal clear. It's easy to tell that the synth bass and electric bass are playing different, complementary lines and that the two instruments are positioned differently in the soundscape. Instead of just hearing heavy breathing over top of everything else, you can hear the difference between breathing in and breathing out, and (I think) a bit of turbulence as Gwen breathes out over the mike cover.
Is it better ? Hard to say... I think I actually like it better on the car radio. Then again, I bet the album was mixed for the car radio so this is not really a surprise. Gwen tends to sing too close to the mike and that is really apparent on more accurate speakers (can you say ssssssibilance ?) but the "bright" sound comes across very well on a typical radio.
Now, cut to something obviously mixed for a good audio system, say Yes -- Tales from Topographic Oceans (or, for example, any well recorded jazz album). Completely different story here... the better the system, the better the album sounds, period. Everything blends beautifully and the most accurate systems do the best job of conveying the original performance (or what the musicians and engineers envisioned for the final mix).
There is a small downside to having an accurate stereo; it's like getting glasses and realizing that some of your friends are really ugly
I do think playing with speaker placement and the room arrangement a bit will really help though...
Alawayswithme, here's some more thoughts:
When I had my M60s in a 14' x 14' bedroom they were very different sounding than in the down stairs HT. Very warm and bassy; pleasant, but not the wide open soundstage I was used to in the larger room.
Between the small room and the M60s proximity to the wall, I would bet therein your problem lies.
There is also the possibility you simply don't like the Axiom sound, but that seems unlikely as you don't find the speakers objectionable - just underwhelming. Try them in a larger room, well away from the wall behind them (one or two feet), at a friend's house or something to get a better idea of what they really sound like.
Good luck.
alwayswithme
Just so happens I connected a Denon 2910 to my system yesterday and didn't even think about playing a redbook cd until after I read your post. I did play one (a couple!) a little while ago with the Denon through a similar H/K receiver as yours in both 2 ch stereo and multi-channel modes from the receiver and thought they sounded extremely good. Granted I am running the 80s but I also have a pair of 60s and I really don't think the difference in the speakers should remotely cause the problem you are describing.
You've got yourself a great system and I'll chime along with what the other folks here have been saying, it's either the room acoustics or somehow, someway you just don't like the sound of the 60s...providing everything is properly connected, which it sounds like it is.
Good luck and I do hope you will get it all worked out soon.
Humor me and stick your ear up to every driver in the speakers. Are they all working? I've certainly heard of problems with this, either binding straps or connections inside working themselves loose.
Is this your first "real" audio system you have (apart from mini/bookshelf ones)? If yes, it is so strange you cannot hear a difference in sound compared to your JVC!! There must be something wrong with the connections. What exactely you don't like in the sound? Bass, highs, muddy sound?
Ooh, ooh... it's an apartment, right ?
Any chance you have the speakers backing onto large windows / wall of glass ? If so you are going to get extremely lame bass and should try to move the speakers to another wall.
Bottom line is that you have a very good system there so unless all of your CDs are "unfortunate choices" or there is something wrong with room / placement / configuration you should be hearing some mighty nice sounds.
I think you have three options :
1. Drag the system out into the living room and see how it sounds.
2. If you have somewhere to post pics, doodle up a drawing of the room, speakers and listening position and post it here.
3. Give us a sample of the kind of CDs you have and we'll recommend something known to be well recorded so you can play with that first.
4. Get depressed and drink heavily, then try #1 or #2 when you wake up
a big thing is the fact that you have nothing on the walls, when i moved into my last house, i set my HT up right away, and there was nothing in the house, and it didn’t sound anywhere near as good as it did when i was "moved in" if you put some stuff on the walls, to direct/redirect the sound, the room will sound MUCH better, that is part of the reason why the movie theaters have cloth on the walls, deaden the walls.. when i added drapes, and a few other items, the room sounded much better.. try that, add just a few things on the walls, i bet the sound will be quite different.. also, what is yoru listening position in reference to the speakers, are you even with the speakers, above the speakers? I’m gona guess, that the speakers are making quite a bit of music go right into the bed your talking about... as far as "audiophile" quality, that’s B.S. mp3's sound as good on my system as multi channel dvd audio.. also, you don’t have a sub woofer, at all..
Always, your equipment is excellent and if set up correctly should give substantially better sound than your mini system. Since you didn't specifically reply to Ken's(kcarlile)suggestions, I'll emphasize that you should check that there isn't a loose speaker connection and some drivers actually aren't working. For example, on at least three occasions here the straps on the M60 binding posts weren't tightly connected and either the woofers or the mid/tweeter weren't operating.
Yes, it is the first serious audio system that I have. Sorry if my last message is confusing. Actually the system sounds much, much better than the JVC mini bookself system, expecially when playing some audiophile CDs. In one song, I can feel the vocal sound of the lady jumping ahead in front of me. The accompanying piano is behind her. Is this the good "imaging" people talking about? Only for some of my very old CDs, the vocal and instruments sound flat, same as the JVC system. I tend to think it is due to the software, not the hardware. I do not ahve a subwoofer, but the M60 does have good low frequency response as I play a music piece of drum.
As I mentioned I am a pure beginner, I have no idea how good a system could be. I may possiblly over expect the audiophile effect of the audio system. Here may be the reason. When I was a college student in Shanghai of China, I stepped by a high-end audiophile equipment store one day. I was really hit by the sound from a pair of bookself speaker playing some acoustic guitar solo. the volume was low, but I felt the sound was melting my ears. That is the first time I felt the temperature of sound. I believe that was an European system with seperate amps. The price of the system was out of my imagination at the time.
I will check the drivers on the speakers tonight. I have moved the system to my studio, a 14 ft by 16 ft room. I put the speakers 11 ft away and I sit 11 ft away. I will try more CDs on the system this evening. Putting stuff on the wall is a little difficult, but I will try too. Thank you guys for all the suggestion.
Bridgeman, I won't use your #1 or #2, but I may still have a couple of beer when enjoying the music.
I have been in your position before, I had several mini/bookshelf cd players, the latest being from Sharper Image. When I first bought my real audio system - Rotel stereo receiver, JBL Northridge E60 floorstanders, and a simple universal Sony DVD/CD/SACD player, I immediately felt a great improvement from any bookshelf system. However, once you get into this hobby, then you learn to appreciate different levels of quality. To make a long story short, check my sig for my current stereo setup, which sounds really awesome.
Another thing: Sometimes expectations differ from the actual experiences. I would strongly suggest you go to some "higher end" audio stores and listen to some speakers there. Compare different speakers (bookshelves vs. floorstanders) with different receivers or separates (amp plus pre amp) and sources (cd players, universal players etc.) to compare them with your own. Beware those dealers often have listening rooms acoustically treated for higher level of sound quality, that are often far more superiour than your living room.
And, again, take a few minutes of your time to check all the connections (cables, receiver, interconnects, etc), even through the instruction manual they come with. You would not believe silly mistakes that people do!! Good luck with your system, and please keep us updated with new developments.
Also consider your source material - if you listen to a lot of older analog recordings, the remastering for CD may not have been done well and a lot of new/current pop stuff is just cookie cutter pressed out (and is very highly compressed).
Smaller budget and older analog recordings may have been done on lesser quality recording medium as well (not everyone could afford/had access to 2" 30ips tape/hardware). And there is sometimes (often?) printthrough on analog masters if not stored correctly (tail out tape before storage and use leaders at least twice the circumference of the takeup between calibration tones and program material so when wound, there is two layers of magnetically "neutral" material between tone and pgm)
Some labels (EMI everywhere in the world outside of the US, for instance) intentionally create errors on their CDs and don't conform to RedBook audio standards in an effort to slow copying of the discs.
Lastly, a friend of the family was complaining that his CD burner must have been broken because the copies of his discs he made to take in the car didn't sound as good as the originals - turns out he was using Windows Media Player to rip the tracks to compressed WMA files, then burning the CDs from those. *slaps my head*
Seems the jazz, blues and classical guys get the biggest wow out of their investment, since the engineering of those discs seem to be a labour of love and not as profit-motivated as commercial radio-type music.
Bren R.
I have to second this. My experience has been that jazz recordings and some 70s progressive rock recordings really show off good systems at their best, and with most other recordings the software becomes the limit.
There is one recent Diana Krall studio recording which really shows the speakers off well... Look of Love, I think...
Please keep us informed with new developments. I would love to hear them.
After I double checked everything, I think the speakers are functioning well and there is no connection mistakes. I also tried diffrernt locations and orientation of the speakers. I didn't find any big difference either. Overall, frankly saying, I am a little disappointed with the system.
My direct feeling is that the receiver does not deliver high-quality sound. I have seen so many good reviews and happy users of Axiom speakers, so I don't even think of that the speakers may not deliver amazing sound. The CDs and Mp3's that I have may not have high quality. I am going to purchase some well recorded CDs and SACDs. I'd appreciate it if someone here can give me the names of some well recorded CDs and SACDs that can take the most advantages of the Axiom speakers. My favor is in Jazz vocal, classical, acoustic music, and some new age. I like Diana Krall and I will buy some of her CDs.
Another thing I can try is to use the digital signal instead of agalog signal from the CD-player and utilize the DAC on the receiver to see if there is some difference.
I think you are in the right track with your next steps. Again, I would suggest you have a second visit to some higher end retailers to hear their systems, so that you have a good comparative base. Speakers such as B&W or Paradigm would do.
In another note, a multi-channel receiver is not as good as a two channel separate power amp + pre amp (my setup) for two channel music reproduction. If music takes the most of the usage time of your system, I would suggest purchasing a 2 channel power amp to pair it with your receiver, powering the fronts only. See if you can hire one from a dealer near you.
You had commented on "Imaging" earlier. When I had my M3s as mains in the old house with a smaller listening room, I could, on a few of my favorite CDs, point "exactly" where between, and outside of the speakers, the instruments were located. I would even kid that I could tell what color dresses the back-up singers were wearing! And this on M3s, which are not noted as being as accurate as M22s or M60s.
In my new house with a larger, not as well accoustically laid out configuration, I don't have the luxury of such good imaging. My M3s played well here, but not like in the old house. My M50s sound just like the M3s; only bigger and a bit better defined, but still not up to the standards of the old house. I can get the performance back if I rearange the room and add temporary sound conditioning materials, but it's currently inconvenient to do so on a normal day to day existence. (But I'm getting closer all the time
)
Bottom line?
The Axioms will do the trick in the right room. If I haden't had the opportunity to hear my M3s in a good room right away, I may have been dissapointed had I heard them first in this house.
I'm slowly(too slowly
)getting this room up to a reasonable acoustic level, so that I'm able to enjoy my system immensly. I've still got a ways to go, but my M50s and M3s are giving a great performance with just a little bit of effort.
Anyway; the M50s are "My kind of sound" but the room is not, and that's not the fault of the speakers.
We're workin' on it though
No, always, your equipment, including the receiver(and don't be worrying about DACs)is fine if set up correctly and should give you a very satisfying result(unless your expectations were unreasonably high and you thought that you'd be "blown away")when set up right and when playing good material. As far as the "good material", I'd suggest starting with
The Planets ,
Swan Lake ,
Ma Vlast , and this
Rimsky-Korsakov collection .
Yes. Yesterday I bought an expensive Monster optic digital toslink cable and play the music through digital domain. At first I felt the digital mode (using DAC of the receiver) was better than analog mode (using DAC of the DVD player). But after I carefully compared the two by switching between the two, there was no big difference. The toslink cable is necessary for DVD playback. Now the audio cable is obviously an extra waste.
The good things started from the new CDs that I bought yesterday. I went to Circuit City to look for some SACD. Unfortunately they no longer sell SACD or DVD audio since nobody buy them. I chose 3 CDs, one is the latest album from Mariah Carry (sorry, I always have trouble to remember English names and I only love the music and keep forgetting the spelling of singers and musicians), one is "Naked Guitar" from Earl Clough (I think the last name here is wrong), and the third one is the 2CD collection from John Denver (I love this singer so much so that I can remember the right name). I played Mariah's CD first and all of the sudden I felt the strength of the Speakers, they are awesome. The guitar solo from Earl also sounds very clear. Only the songs of John Denver sound so so since those were recorded long time ago. So I think the software does make a difference here.
I tried to play some of the music that I played yesterday. I felt they sounds better now. It looks like the speakers need some warm up time and are getting better and better.
I'm glad you're finally starting to hear how wonderful these speakers can be. Don't worry about your English. You're doing very well. And, there is no penalty here for poor spelling. If there were, we ALL would be in big trouble.
.
If you are looking for SACDs and DVD-As, here are a few on-line sources you might consider. If you find a DVD-A or SACD which interests you, try going to google.com and entering the Artist and Title in the search box to see if there is a better price available.
CD Universe
In the "Browse" menu, on the left hand side of the page, look for "DVD Audio," and "Super Audio CD."
Acoustic Sounds
In the menu, upper left hand of the page, look for "SACD," and "DVD Audio"
BuyDVDNow
Same as above
Elusive Disc
Left hand menu, as usual.
Music Direct
Click on "Shop By Category" in the menu on the left, then under "Music" you'll find the links to SACD and DVD-Audio.
I do not know if you like her music, but I have found that
Diana Krall's SACDs (
When I Look In Your Eyes is my favorite) are the best mixed and mastered SACDs I've ever heard. Good hunting!
Did you have the chance to compare your system with some other systems in a store other than BB and CC where you can actually listen to something? It can also be a matter of expectations here, as some people expect to be blown away and see a miracle once the HT is in place. A comparison listen will help you a lot to have realistic expectations from your system.
And yes, I felt that my speakers sounded better after a while, but not sure if it were them or my ears getting used to them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.....
In reply to:
It looks like the speakers need some warm up time and are getting better and better.
Think maybe your *ears* might just be getting warmed up to the sound this system produces?! Glad to hear that it's starting to come together for you always, that's a heck of a good system there. Speaking of Mariah Carey....
"Whenever I watch TV and I see those poor starving kids all over the world, I can't help but cry. I mean I would love to be skinny like that, but not with all those flies and death and stuff."
- Mariah Carey, Pop Singer
>>Whoa, whoa, whoa.....
Can we at least agree that many people see a significant improvement in how their speakers sound after a few days, whether that is a change in speaker performance or the brain adapting to the sound of the speakers ?
I was disappointed with the sound of my M2s when they first arrived, but after a couple of days of continuous use (with me in another city
) they sounded mighty fine.
In reply to:
Can we at least agree that many people see a significant improvement in how their speakers sound after a few days, whether that is a change in speaker performance or the brain adapting to the sound of the speakers ?
You are absolutely correct John, I was actually trying to add a little humor more than anything. My speakers sound better each time I play them!
I liked your Mariah Carey quote. She didn't actually SAY that, did she ? I don't think I would ever show my face in public again after saying something like that...
"She didn't actually SAY that, did she ?"
Yep she sure did John, here are a few others you'll enjoy...
Stpuid Quotes
I'm defending truth, not Mariah Carey.
Snopes says the quote is bogus.
As to the thread, I'm sure that some well-recorded material will help you appreciate your system much more.
It is kind of hard to find a high-end audio dealer in town. The only one that I went to has a system of NAD pure CD-player, B&W seperate amps, and a pair of Paradiam speakers. That system does not deliver amazing sound. Compared to the $400 infinity floor standing and the $900 Polk HT bookself speakers (driven by Onkyo receiver) that I audited in CC, the Axiom speakers are definitely much better.
In reply to:
The only one that I went to has a system of NAD pure CD-player, B&W seperate amps, and a pair of Paradiam speakers. That system does not deliver amazing sound
Does or does not?!! As far as I know B&W produces speakers only, and not amps.
B&W, B&O, B&K... I sure have a tough time keeping them straight
I think Thyname is right though... B&W makes speakers, B&K makes amps, B&O make both...
In reply to:
B&O make both...
Trade you B&O and Reading for Marvin Gardens and Atlantic.
Bren R.
Ahh, THAT'S why B&O seemed so familiar
Dude, you're gonna trade railroads? Are you nuts?!
Both of You...
Go Straight to Jail...
Do Not Pass Go...
Do Not Collect $200...
WhatFurrer