I have m60's with a svs box with 2 12" (I forgot the model name). Movies sound great, but I am more of a music guy. I love the sound for the most part, but I would love to get a more puchy feel to the bass. If I turn up the sub too much or use the bass extention on the reciever I get too much bloaty bass, but if I leave everything flat it sounds thin. Either way I get no punch/feel to the music. I am considering using an eq again but I don't know what freq the punchy stuff is at.

I listen mostly to metal, but some of it is recorded very well such as Opeth and Dream Theater so I know it's not just the recordings of my music.

How do you have your speakers setup and crossover? I could be wrong, but I would say around 80hz and up is where you get the punchy tight bass. I've heard others say anything below 80hz is non-directional, meaning you can't tell where it is coming from, only feel it...

If you really want to, go ahead and play with eq between 60 and 80Hz. Bumping 60 up will give you a little more thump. If you fiddle a little you should find a sweet spot somewhere between 70 and 80Hz that will give you that "hit in the gut" feeling, which is what I imagine you are looking for. BUT I would first try playing with the location of your subwoofer. There is quite a bit of information on how to place your sub to get nice tight bass without "bloom" or "bloat."

Mark beat me to it. I noticed a very substantial improvement in the quality of bass when I moved my subwoofer out of the corner of the room. Placement is really important.

It sounds like you have a null or peak in your frequency response.

How did you determine your optimal subwoofer placement? If you want to see what's going on, you can measure your sub's frequency response using a bass CD and an Radio Shack SPL meter.

It sounds like you have room node issues and/or your sub placement needs work. Another problem is that the SVS subs are known to have a mid-bass frequency hump which can be accentuated by your room. I would use the crawl method to find a better place for your sub. Usually one third of a wall-length across the frontwall or sidewall gives better response but less room gain. The SVS subs are known to have unlinear response below 24hz which need equalization as well. You may need to think about basstraps or an equalizer if you can't find the right placement. I uses an SMS equalizer to get rid of room nodes at the sweet spot and strive for flat FR for the best sound quality. Or do what I did and buy the EP Axiom subs that way you don't need to worry about lumpy response from the subs.

Thanks for the help guys, it's been awhile since I've posted here (although I'm a frequent lurker).

I will try your suggestions other than (hopefully) buying a new sub! I run my mains as large and send the bass to both the mains and the sub. I know this is a no no, but the bass sounds even weaker if I don't and I have to crank up the sub much louder to get the same effect. I have tried the sub in many different places, but my favorite and current position is right next to the couch (sweet spot) and it doubles as an end table (a big ass end table).

I've tried using the bass boost on my Yamaha rxv3000 receiver, but that doesn't do the trick either.

I think I want more kick than what is there or something. I usually run the sub at anywhere from +6 to even +10 db, and when I try just using the mains the bass sounds anemic. I'm not blaming the axioms because I use to have 15" woofer Cerwin Vega's as my mains and they had little bass when everything was 'flat' with no sub as well.

My problem is that I'm a constant tweaker. I think I have everything set the way I want and that I'm finally happy, and then I start wondering if I could make it better. The mids and highs sound fantastic right now, and overall the bass is good too - it's just that I want more tight punch to go along with the nice foundation of bass.

I keep hearing now from reviewers that sub x has more "punch" than the svs which is frustrating to hear. Where were these reviews a couple years back when I bought my sub? Back then svs ruled the world!

BTW, one tweak I did that made a huge difference for me was to move the speakers further apart. The were about 8 feet apart and now they are almost 12. I sit 13 feet from them, and this move really opened up the soundstage. Plus nothing sounds harsh anymore, even old metal albums.

Gotta go, baby's crying. I'll ramble more later.

That's exactely the feeling i have with my axioms and my newly purchased REL sub!! My music is metal too. However, sometimes if sounds just right, but not so often.

Some M80s and a Hsu sub will solve that problem

Without knowing your room lay out or your equipment I would guess you have a big time phase issue with your mains and subs as a result of placement. ie lots of cancellation of LF sound waves. I would also not recommend running the full mains + sub. Your asking for uneven response across the band and loads of intermodulation and harmonic distortion to muck up the upper range in the mains. Ouch.

I run my mains full as well and spend days moving subs and experimenting until I found the spot where they blended best with the mains. It doesn't sound like that spot is where you currently have your sub. And I bet you are sitting in a trough node.

As an alternative I would cross the mains as low as you can say 40hz and then try moving the sub around. Also take a tape measure and try to get the mains equidistant from each other and the main sitting position. Toeing in makes them brighter while straight ahead is better for imaging so check those out.

I have an Svs Ultra as well as 2 600s and 2 500s though my brother has carted off a 600 for now. The EPs are better performers with more output so if all else fails consider selling the SVS or just buy an ep500 and go the dual sub route. They actually blend well together because of their close tuning points.

I kind of have the same problem, it sounds like placement more than anything. I have the same SVS as you and I have a real problems with nulls. My problem is that when you are standing up in front of the couch the bass sounds good, but then when you sit down the volume of the bass cuts in half. I swear it is louder outside the house than in the "sweet spot". I have tried 3 different spots and only one worked pretty good, unfortunately now that the furniture is re-arranged I am screwed again. I guess i can jack up the couch a couple of feet with cinderblocks and tell the wifey that it is a new style or just chunk a stick of dinamite in there and be done with it once and for all. I am moving the system to another room someday, hopefully it will sound better in there. I have been waiting on a the funds for a new TV but looks like I will be waiting awhile. Has anyone heard any news about that newfangled digital amplifier Axiom was supposed to be coming out with the beginning of this year? I waited patiently through January, but we are into Feb. and still no word. Maybe the whole project went tits up.

I am sort of in the same boat as you, but worse off. I am still new to the HT game, so I purchased speakers and a sub that just doesn't "blend" well, this is obviously not your case! I have ity-bity satellite speakers with a HUGE SVS box sub.

I think the "punchy" bass is close to the upper end of my sub's frequency response, or in my case, way out of the range of my mains response. I say that because at work we use JBL control 5 monitors, and they are just a little bigger than bookshelves but they do have punch, with no sub. I do not have "punch" at the house for sure.

In my limited knowledge, I would concur with what has already been said, with the additional possiblities:

Are you used to an exaggerated mid/upper bass response? I am....err was. I didn't wan't "BOOM! BOOM!" when I bought my sub, but I did expect a little more "boom" than I was *initially* getting (read below) from my sub; was kind of shocked. HOWEVER, the quality from my sub is TOP NOTCH, so it stays! I actually enjoy the quality sound from it more now than I do with an exaggerated "boomy" sub.

As was already suggested, try different cross over frequencies, and set your mains to "small". Producing bass from both your mains AND your sub is gonna cause all kinds of headaches; let each one do their intended job and you will be much better off. As far as what cross-over setting to use, although 80 seems to be the norm, I would say that depends on your ears. If you like the quality of the mid-bass better from your mains than your sub, cross lower; if you like the quality of the mid-bass from your sub more than your mains, cross higher.

Finally, EQ. <----- In my case (YMMV) this was the one thing that gave me the most dramatic improvement in overall sound. All the speaker toeing and such of course made subtle changes, but I'm a "casual" listener, not a "critical" listener, but the EQ had the most dramatic effect in my case.

Lastly, pay attention to your sub's "phase" control. Although we think about the cross-over as a brick wall filter, it isn't. Its possible that the phase is incorrect, causing a "hole" at the cross-over frequency, which happens to be right in that area of the "punchy" feel.

I hope this helps...

-Alan

-EDIT- When I did a response graph from the sub, I found I had LOTS of room gain down low, exaggerating the 20-30Hz range. So like you, when I cranked the gain up on my sub, instead of getting more punch, I was getting more bloat, because it was just turning that really low end up even more (too much). Taming those peaks allowed the upper bass to come alive which elieviating that bloat.

Wow, not only did I find out you only have so much time to edit, but my latest reply dissapeared!

Meant to say above that I "didn't" have punch at the house [until EQing]. I still don't have the amount I desire, but blame the remaining lack of punch on my ity-bity main speakers.

-Alan

Yeah, I may need to look into getting an eq for the sub. It does sound like the really low stuff gets loud before it gets punchy when I turn it up.

Last night I turned the mains to small and sent the bass to the sub and forced myself to leave it that way. There is definately less bass this way, but I am going to try to train my ears to get used to it. I just can't force myself to listen to music with the sub calibrated at the same level of the mains though, it just sounds weak to me. Last night I had the sub at +5 and by the 4th or 5th song it was sounding pretty good.

I hear other posters from time to time talk about the kick in the chest feel from the kick drum, and I envy them. I wonder if you can only get this by cranking up the volume to well past 90db. I have some tinnitus issues so I refuse to go past 90 so maybe I'm just out of luck.

Any of you music lovers feel the kick in the chest when the volume isn't cranked?

Firebird, what kind of eq do you have?

BFD. I am new, but hope my info helps, but if your situation is anything like mine, I'll *bet* you have room gain causing the really LLLOOOOWWWW stuff (20-30Hz) to be loud, and the higher stuff (50-100) to be really weak. Tame those peaks, and I'll bet you get closer to what your looking for.

Also, don't forget about that phase control for proper "blend" of bass from your mains and sub @ the cross over frequency range.

-Alan

Okay, so I can get a little bit long winded sometimes...

But while I am think about it, I have done TONS of research, and one thing I thought of, but have NOT seen discussed ANYWHERE is calibration vs. EQ; specifically in what order to do it.

Based on my limited experience I say EQ first, then calibrate after. If your sub is not flat, when you calibrate with a wide-band pink noise signal, I would *assume* the meter would react to the highest peak, causing the frequencies at the peak to be calibrated correctly, while all others would be too low. In my mind, this would cause the sub to seem "not loud enough" with real world music.

That's just my own take on it though...

-Alan

Cameron, you and Alan have got SVS subs with pretty high output and yes bloated bass down low. They aren't that linear below 30hz. But you should both be getting much better sound. It still reads to me like you both need to dial them in better and practice weightlifting those big boxes around the room.

I have 4 subs calibrtated in total to the same level matched 75db of my small centre speaker. The bass is clean, distinct,omni-directional. Its not boomy.

You may have followed this procedure but I will write what I would do.

1. Shut off the sub and set all speakers to large.

2. With a RS metre and an AVia or DVE disk run test tones to each speaker and level them at 75db.

2. turn on the sub and level that at 75db. (You can raise it later if you want at the receiver but you should always know where 75db. With correction its more like 76.5db anyway.)

3. St the mains to small and cross at 60hz, (80hz with the monitors)

4. Keep running the sub test tone through the receiver.

5. Put the RS metre at your favourite spot and keep an eye on it as you move the sub around the room.

6. Leave the sub where you get the highest db reading.

7. Lean over the sub and flip the variable phase control between 0 and 180. Leave it at the setting which gives you the highest reading. If you get a higher reading in between move the sub a few inches at a time so you get the same reading at either 0 or 180.

8. Keep running the tone at the crossover point.

9. go to your receiver and to the delay control menu. and keep your eye on the metre.

10. Don't worry about the distance but keep increasing it until you figure out which setting maximizes the reading on the metre.

11. Play a bass heavey DVD like Master and Commander.

12. If it sounds boomy, change the crossover point and go back to 3.

13. Keep changing the crossover point until it sounds best to your ear.


Let me know.

Yup. Just like Real Estate it's LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. Sure you may also have some room modes causing problems, but your first step is to do the "sub crawl" and see if you can't find a better place for the sub. I would exhaust everything Jake recommends before playing with the EQ. And the "kick in the gut" feeling does increase with dBs. Really, do yourselves a favor and play with the other possibilities before trying to EQ things out. Another word of advice: If you can't resist and want to play with EQ, the proper way to do this is to find the annoying frequencies and bump them down. The advice I gave earlier is what I tell my "bass first and foremost" friends who could care less what everything else sounds like. So, if you are like them, boost away. If you really want to do it right don't boost, cut.

Not to hijack, but...

While I agree location is #1 on the list, in my case I have limited placement options. Doors on every wall in the corners except ONE. I tried the corner, and yeah, I got LOTS of bass, but the calibration was out of whack, so I ended up turning it right back down to match the mains. So the end result was same SPL (more headroom of course, but I don't listen THAT loud), but it really made my response get WORSE.

So, the previous location and EQing was the solution. Also, my other issue is MOST DEFINATELY too small a main speaker. When the manufacturer says it plays to 100 Hz, that is BEST CASE. When I turn off my sub, I HIGHLY DOUBT that figure, and a 200Hz would have been a better rating for my little tiny satellite speakers. In short, I have too little punch because I have a "hole" between 100 and close to 200 Hz. Only way to fix this is for me to get better (bigger) mains (which are coming soon), OR set my cross over frequency as high as possible, and jack up the gain on my EQ in the 100-200Hz range to "force" my sub to play higher in freq (it starts rolling off at the upper end of its range at 100Hz). I really don't want to force the sub into a range its not designed for, and would be able to "localize" it anyway if I did...

Also, one thing I disagree with jakeman about, is do NOT use DVE for sub calibration. There is tons of info on the net as to why not to use it, so I won't go there. I will say DVE, coupled with my origional room gain had me pulling my hair out.


-Alan

Yup,....just re-read this entire thread, and can safely say:

You are not alone!!

Who?!

Anyone who has their speakers too close together(but some can't move them)and finds(when Momma's not watching)that moving the listening chair closer to the speakers helps bunches!

Those who use EQ(and sometimes even the dreaded "tone Control")to make things better!

And those who find that sending bass to both the sub and the mains gives that "punchy bass" between 60 and 80HZ that's missing otherwise! I get that satisfying "WHAM" that's localized up front, but with the sub located in the back when the system's set this way! The attack and sustain must go to the fronts only in these situations, and the bulk of the low tones to the sub in the back of the room, but the overall sound is well integrated and just about perfect!

So yup, for those of us without the ideal listening room architecture, with the wrong furnishings or floor coverings, without optimum speaker placement, or maybe even the "wrong" speakers; well,...the audio Gods have seen fit to give us those audiophile taboos: those tone and EQ controls; to at least get us out of sonic purgatory and a bit closer to....

Some folks may ask: "But now, you don't have an accurate reprentation of the input signal, how do you live with that?"

What works for me is to go from my current set-up to "Direct" mode and take a listen to the unaltered sound from the receiver. Now, until my ears get used to it, it sounds thin and unappetizing. Then, when I almost forget that I'm listening to this sound, I go back to "stereo" mode and get snacked with the modified audio. If it sounds too artificial, I can bring it back toward the "direct" signature. I've gone thru this cycle a number of times over the last few weeks and months until; like Goldilocks: It's "just right"

Good point on DVE Alan as the tone is regarded as 10db too low when setting at 75db. I use other calibration discs and tones but DVE is widespread. I should have added if using DVE make the 10db adjustment or you will have the sub gain below the other speakers. Alternatively just use Avia. I don't recommend using a single tone because of possible problems with nodes depending on where the RS metre is place. Sweeps are better then just set at the average reading. Also I wouldn't bother with the calibration posted above until you've solved your bigger problem with the inadequate mains.

Ok, I just watched the movie Serenity and let me restate that for movies my system is great. In fact I really can't imagine it sounding any better. The bass has huge impact and I can't tell at all that it is coming from the sub.

If movies were my main interest I would be completely satified, but music is my thing. I will try the sub crawl and all the other steps involved in getting the best bass but I gotta believe that what I am looking for just doesn't exist.

In some ways I wish I could go back 10 years to my college system. I had an old Pioneer pro logic receiver with 15" Cerwin Vega mains and used a graphic equalizer with a smiley face configuration. I usually listened in pro logic with the bass boost on and the bass and treble knobs turned all the way up (can you believe this?). To me it sounded great and the bass abolutely kicked my ass without a sub. My system sounded great to me until the day (about 6 years ago) I brought home some Grado headphones after doing some research online.

The problem is that I can never go back to that. Now that I have heard what good sound is like that kind of set up would sound horrible in the mids (or complete lack therof) and the highs. What I wish for is the bass of then combined with the rest from now and I know there is no way that can work.....

Music is another matter. Some people listen in stereo with the mains only and shut off the sub completely. Many people run stereo subs with monitors. Others make no distinction between music and HT and leave the mains crossed to the sub. All are good configurations if set up properly with capable equipment. Better mains or a second sub may be the ticket if you tried the steps above and still can't get the bass response.

Just for kicks, I was listening to Bavarian polka music -- you know, oom-pah music -- and I decided to turn off the sub to compare the sound. The notes stayed the same, even for the oom-pahs, but the punch (both from the tuba and the kickdrum on the beat) was gone. And that's with a 100Hz cross-over. I suppose the occasional oom (n.b. the pah is usually higher in pitch) might have been down a few dB, but definitely it was the "feel" that was most missing. I have M3Ti mains and TN-1220HO sub.
--Martin

I hope you were enjoying a large stein of märzen or other bavarian beer while enjoying your oom-pah band.

Well, I got the CD in anticipation of hosting an Oktoberfest party at some point, and I love my lagers, but this time it was red wine. In a glass. With a stem. I'm in Sonoma County after all.

I was in the process of finally organizing my CDs, and while I was doing so I listened to various CDs on my present system for the first time. As a student I used to have an Akai ghettoblaster as my "mains" and a portable Sony Discman as a CD player. Obviously, what a difference a real stereo makes! Any music, even stuff I don't really want to listen to, it's just fascinating how it becomes interesting to listen to because of the new detail, the extended frequency range, etc. A bit like picking up some object with bare hands for the first time and marvelling at its texture?

--Martin