Well I dont mean to start a big thing here, but this is the story:

Epic 60 Axiom System (with VP150 center) (all thanks to Mark @ Audioshop - great guy)

When I first got the system and after reading these forums, I bought Phoenix Gold 12g speaker wire. Sounded good.

I started reading over at the audioasylum.com forums under cables. I read alot about the John Rish cross connected Belden 89259 speaker cables and decided to give them a try.

http://www.tubeaholic.com/projects/page.view?RowId=66 - check this link I made the fancy cables with blue tech flex. I made 5 cables and two jumpers. CF, RF, & LF are all 8 feet - RR 32 feet - LR 38 Feet - two jumpers 6 inches each - The finished cables are really nice looking and took me about 15 hours to make took my time did a professional careful job - cost $325

I first removed the gold metal jumpers on the M60's and replaced with my DIY Belden jumpers.

Then I carefully removed Phoenix Gold & installed my new speaker cables.

All I can say is wow what a difference. The soundstage really opened up, big increase in detail, bass is tight and kicking, no edginess at all, very fluid sounding. All this in first 15 min of listening. I honestly didnt expect such a sound improvement.

I have read these forums start to finish before I bought my Axioms and I know a lot of your views on speaker cables but all I can say is a big wow.

Steven,
(Sorry for the long post)

Great to hear that it made such a difference for you; I have to wonder though in making your connections if you did not inadvertently correct some other pre-existing problems with the original connections or jumpers. Good quality wire is wire, you will see all kinds of articles and testimonials to the effect that it makes such a difference. That our cables are 99.9% oxygen free. And the best ones I have seen to date are the companies that have arrows on the cables to make sure that you connect them in the right direction since the cable is designed that electrons flow better in one direction. However in any independent lab tests none of these claims has ever shown to make the slightest difference. In my own personal experience when I built my room, and was sourcing my components I came across a shop that I went into looking at high end DVD players. The topic in-variably came around to what wires and interconnects was I going to use. To make a long story short the guy was so insistent that the wire would make all the difference to my setup that he agreed to come and install this QED Genesis Silver Spiral cable at $45.00/ft (http://www.qed.co.uk/cables/speaker/genesis.html) plus the cost of the connectors and installation since which had to be done by them to ensure proper routing and wire terminations. I agreed with the understanding that if there was no audible difference and they would be present for the tests, he would take it all back. If it made the difference they claimed then I pay for the wire the installation and I would buy the DVD player fro them. It made absolutely no difference! The guy spent 2 days running cable and making the “proper” connections. When we did blind tests, a friend of mine made the cable switches so that neither one of us would know which cable was which. He could not tell the difference, he even picked the normal wire a couple of times trying to guess which one was the QED. Well out it all came, the best part was what came next. The reason we could not hear any difference: The Axiom speakers were not good enough to be able to discern the difference such high quality wire would make to a good set of speakers. He was very disappointed since he thought the M80’s were much better then that. I’m sorry I had to laugh.

Lol that is a good laugh. It must have been embarassing for the guy to not know which wires were which. He prolly went home and figured out how much money he wasted on his home system. lol
Ayien

I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion if their pockets will get much deeper if you agree with them...

45 dollars per foot. Wiring for a HT with cable like that is enough for a whole new smaller Axiom HT or a very very good DVD player.

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your kind words.
I've been leery about recommending wires on this board too for fear of flames.
I like to match up the Kimber Kables on the Axioms. It DOES sound better than regular wires and the Axioms are high enough resolution to show off the differences.
In the shop, I put Kimber 4PR on one speaker and 16g regular wire on the other speaker, put the pre-amp in mono mode and then flip back and forth with the balance control and let the client decide for himself. The difference is quite readily apparent.
For those who doubt, please keep an open mind and try some premium cables if you have the opportunity.

Marc,
How about if you use a standard 12g wire in place of the 16g like most people have recommended. How big of a difference is that to the Kimber 4PR? (I suspect it costs much less)

Michael

my friend bought some of the expensive wire for his house-dont want to say the brand, it was no better than the 12 ga x3 power cord i use(79cents a foot not 8.00 a foot)i just cut off the 3rd wire it looks great when its done, sounds good also.

Ayien, It was amusing to say the least.

Marc, maybe i should clarify a bit the wire I use is a high grade 12 gage fine strand copper signal wire. We buy it in bulk spools for use in some projects that we did in my company. I think that we paid around $2,000 for 1000 ft spools. I have yet to try any wires even the Kimber’s you mention that make any difference to my system.

In general terms using one cable on the left and one on the right is generally not a good method as your ears, right and left do perceive sound differently. I would like to see it done with 2 pairs of the same speakers on a switch box then switch the source between the 2, again positioning will effect how you perceive the sound from each set. So you would have to switch the wires around and do it again in reverse without knowing which was which.

I would be interested to find one scientifically done independent test to show that there is some difference in cables. Too date I have not been able to find one. And lets face it high performance cable sales make the store good money (I am not trying to imply that you or your shop specifically do this) but to generalize audio places love to sell you high end wire and interconnects because the margins on them are tremendous. You can potentially make more profit on the wire sales then you did selling the customer the speakers.

Well I am a very particular and careful (one step shy of a perfectionist) and I know for certain that my first setup with the Phoenix Gold 12g speaker wire and M60 standard metal jumper straps was totally setup correctly. It all sounded very good!

These cross connected Belden 89259 wires sound fantastic. I just got home from work and turned on the FM radio and the clarity and soundstage is unreal.

Just so you know I am not a kid here. I am 49 with a graduate degree from a major university. The Axioms must just gel with this Belden wire. The sound is tremendously improved.

Steven,

I hope that you did not take my post to imply that you did not know what you are doing. I understand your thoughts and you sound a lot like I do. I design precision measurment systems for coating applications, and even with our most basic systems we measure to 1 micron accuracy. So believe me I know what being fussy is all about.

I am really pleased to hear that this worked so well for you. After all being happy with your system is what it is all about. Just for your interest the wire I used in my system is made by Belden.

Happy Listening!

Cheers
John.

Steven,if there is any audible difference(provable in blind tests)between standard lamp cord of adequate gauge for the distance involved( I use 16ga)and another speaker wire, then the other wire is introducing inaccuracies and by definition is inferior, regardless of its cost, to the lamp cord.

You spent almost as much on the cables for your speakers as you spent on your center?

That's absurd. I'd be very interested in hearing your response to buying some good 12ga from Home Depot and having a friend switch (blind to you) between the two.

I would be very surprised if you can tell the difference.

Incidentally, you might find this useful:
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/spkrcabl.pdf

Sorry for the long post, but I promise no more after this one.

Ok here’s the deal, I would stop short at saying all wire is equal for speaker use. Because in reality this is not the case. When referring to cable for speakers, I would not recommend cheap lamp cord. I would recommend a good quality cable, for example from a reputable brand manufacturer i.e. Belden, Alcatel…etc. Let me play devils advocate here for a minute to explain something, and understand that this is just one of many potential problems that can exist in cheap lamp cord. I will not even deal with the problems of composition of the copper in these cables.

Cheap cord is just that, cheap; it is for the most part made in China typically, and is manufactured in older mills using archaic technology. For this example I will cite a very common periodic manufacturing problem that happens in cheap cables. Lets say for example XYZ manufacturer in China has a wheel in their extruder which is out of round. This out of round wheel may stretch the center conductor making it microscopically thinner at one point. Or the dielectric might come out slightly smaller in diameter for each turn of the wheel. While such a change is very minor, and may not even be readable with test gear, or noticeable in use, this flaw will be added over and over and over again each time the wheel turns. This simple common flaw now adds the dimension of multiple flaws at the same spacing. If you have a flaw every 100 cm (a common circumference for the extruder wheels), over and over, this distance corresponds to a wavelength of a specific frequency. While a 100 cm flaw creates a major flaw at 3 GHz fundamental frequency, this anomaly will also show up to a lesser extent at every harmonic of 3 GHz. It doesn't take many divisions to get to key frequencies for cable television, digital video, digital audio and similar applications. Also, this problem would not be a factor if the cable were very short, but, with increasing distance, this minor flaw could be a major cause of signal problems, and you can't even tell by looking at the cable if this flaw exists. Now you change the cable to one of these premium brands and all of sudden you have a wonderful signal and magically the whole system sounds better. You would accomplish the same thing with a good quality 12-14 gage wire from a quality manufacturer without spending the hundreds of dollars.

And i thought i was the only one who rambled on with points of contention in posts with widely opposing opinions.
Nice post John.
A new perspective on the whole cable topic that i don't think i've seen before. You can tell where your work experience influences the thinking process about the issue.

I got the Phoenix Gold 12g from www.partsexpress.com - It is a high quality looking wire with a clear jacket. Again it did have a nice sound to it and I wasn not displeased with the sound quality.

Again last night even while watching just plain TV the sound quality with the new Belden speaker wires & Belden jumpers for the M60's, is absolutely significantly improved. All sound is just much more detailed. It is a very open, clean, detailed, airy, fluid, accurate, non-edgy,clarity type of sound.

I am really amazed at this.

Hi Steven,

After looking at the link you posted for the DIY wires I see that they are using coax for this. I will not get into a rambleing post as before but I can understand now you hearing a difference. In simplest terms the coax is coloring your signal. There are numerous technical papers published on the problems of using coax for speaker wire. (Never mind the ear full my design engineers gave me this morning about this, they are still back there going on about it!). Chess if you want a rambling post let me turn the computer over to them for a bit, OMG!

Steven, If you are pleased with the sound then that is all that matters, and I am glad that for you it makes your system more enjoyable, since that is all that really matters.

Cheers
John.

I have found that the length and guage is a bigger difference maker than anything else.

Keep you guage high enough and keep your lengths as short as possible.

John Henderson

You are oviously very knowledgeable - If you are right about the Belden 89259 coax cable adding a color to the sound - then the "color" it is adding is simply outstanding!

Hi Steven,

Please don't feel that I am trying to rain on your parade. Since your experience has been a positive one you should be happy you got the results you did, and very proud that you were able to do it yourself. Not eveyone would have the patience to do it themselves. I would love to see a picture of your cables, as i realy enjoy DYI projects myself.


Regards

John

Steven, I have to agree with John H. Although it took you about 15 hours and $325 to assemble 22ga speaker wires to replace 12ga wires, it's good that you're enjoying your speakers.

JohnK,

Not sure if you really understood the construction of the speaker wires. Each finished cable to one speaker is made up from two seperate wires of Belden 89259 which have been cross connected and made into one wire.

The core of the Belden does look to be about 20 some guage - however when you join the core of one wire with the copper wire jacket braid of another (cross connected) it forms a new single wire which looks in diameter to be about 12g.

I have some smaller pieces of Belden 89259 left over and would be willing to construct a pair of jumpers for the purpose of testing. I would be willing to send them to Axiom for testing on any of their speakers which have dual binding posts and are currently using factory metal jumpers. So the metal strap jumpers would be replaced with the cross connected Belden 89259 jumpers to see if there is an improvement in sound quality.

If there is an improvement in sound quality I think I should win a free upgrade from my still relatively new M60's to M80's. If no sound improvement I am out my time for construction, material, and postage for the Belden jumpers.

What do you think let the experts test it out. A real test would be with a pair of Belden jumpers and a pair of 8ft Belden speaker wires. I would have to get 18ft of Belden but I am confident enough to put my time and money where my mouth is. I could even supply a pair of Phoenix Gold 12g speaker wire for the comparison.