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Posted By: sidvicious02 Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 05:53 PM
I once again come hat-in-hand to you great folks, looking for some help on selecting a new tv. To give a bit of the background story, i currently own an older model 36" flat screen tube tv that is in our upstairs living room. The room isn't very large and once i finish up the basement, it will be moving to that location (but it too won't be long for the world; i'll be looking for a replacement for it soon after). So that move leaves us short a tv in our living room/open kitchen area that gets the majority of use.

I haven't done any thorough research on the decision, but i have browsed some different shop displays. At this point i'd probably lean towards something in the 36-46" range, probably an LCD (I like the look of the Samsung, both pic and aesthetics but otherwise no bias towards any one brand). Small footprint is definitely a must, it will need to support large viewing angles and also can't be subject to washout since the room has numerous windows and won't be light controlled. The other question would be resolution and since i'm looking at smaller sets, i don't see a compelling reason to look for anything better than 720p (looks like primarily 768 on the LCDs). This should save me a few bucks. Price-wise i wouldn't say there is really a limit, though i'd like to keep total cost to not much more than $2K Canadian.

Anyone have any suggestions/comments/ideas?
Posted By: bugbitten Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 06:23 PM
The biggest change you are going to see other than great HD is not so great SD. If you watch a lot of SD tv then try to get sales people to show some SD while you shop. Compare tube and LCD/Plasma in the same shop.

Just bought a 46 Sony 2000 (720) tv for the bedroom. Very pleased.
Posted By: LightninJoe Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 09:15 PM
While researching new TVs I came across a few that people really rave about. One is the Panasonic 42px60u plasma. They can be had at Best Buy and the like for around $1500. It will do 720p (768 really) no problem. I took a good look at this PDP while doing my research and it is a great set, especially for the money. One problem is that source components like the OPPO 971H using the Faroudja DCDi chip can cause macroblocking issues on the Panny set.

It seems that the 9th generation PDPs have gone a long way towards fixing problems like stuck pixels, faded phosphors, screen burn-in, and such. Plus the brightness had improved dramatically. Plasmas also have a wider viewing angle than LCD sets although the LCD sets are getting better.

For the purposes of full disclosure, I ended up buying a JVC HD56FN97 HD-ILA (LCos) rear-projection tv. LCoS has been the technology I've been watching for quite a while and the price/performance calculus finally hit the sweet spot for me.
Posted By: spiffnme Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 09:31 PM
Yep...that panny is very nice. I just helped my brother with his tv purchase. He ended up with this

Panasonic TH-42PX60U. $1499 delivered. No tax. No shipping - AND he got the free Harmony remote!

We had some issues at first. The first tv delivered was NG, but Vanns sent a new one with no questions asked. The new set is stunning. I bought my brother the Oppo 971H for his birthday to go with his new tv, and I must say I was dumbfounded at how good some DVD's look. Wow!
Posted By: Zarak Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 09:57 PM
I have to ask Spiff...how do you like it compared to your Sony?
Posted By: LightninJoe Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 10:25 PM
Spiff-

Any problems with macroblocking with the Oppo on the 60u? That is a problem that seems to be somewhat common yet erratic with that combo. I'm suggesting the 60u/971H combo to a friend here in PDX on the premise that the macroblocking is an occasional nuisance rather than a continuous problem. From what I've read the 60u/971H is a nearly unbeatable value for a PDP/upconverting DVD combo.
Posted By: RickF Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 10:29 PM
Just yesterday we took delivery of a Panasonic TH42PX60U 42" plasma to replace the old Sony KE37XS919 37" plasma in our bedroom that went south after almost three years of good service ... good thing we did get the extended warranty on the Sony, it paid for the new set.

The Sony developed a 2" wide horizontal black stripe about 2/3rds on the right hand side of the unit and the service tech determined the stripe was fatal so the old plasma put to pasture. RIP Sony!

The biggest difference that I noticed right away was the PQ on the Panny's SD channels, the HD channels are simply stunning. Hopefully this set will last longer than the previous plasma ... time will tell.
Posted By: sidvicious02 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 10:38 PM
Craig, Joe & Mark, thanks for the suggestions and ideas. Does anyone think there would be issues with a plasma washing out a bit in high ambient light areas? It appears that 42” Panny plasma is around the $2k mark in Canada and I believe it would be available locally too, so I’d be able to have a look at it at least. Good to know there could be potential macroblocking issues as I’m thinking about ordering a new DVD player and will likely end up with either a Panny or an Oppo. Craig, has your bro noticed any issues yet? Is there any specific reason you ended up selecting that set – price, performance, size, etc?

(by the way Mark, good choice on the LCoS set, when I finally get the theatre settled in downstairs and replace the old tube, I’ll be looking at either an LCoS or DLP set)
Posted By: oldskoolboarder Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/13/06 10:54 PM
Quote:

Yep...that panny is very nice. I just helped my brother with his tv purchase. He ended up with this

Panasonic TH-42PX60U. $1499 delivered. No tax. No shipping - AND he got the free Harmony remote!

We had some issues at first. The first tv delivered was NG, but Vanns sent a new one with no questions asked. The new set is stunning. I bought my brother the Oppo 971H for his birthday to go with his new tv, and I must say I was dumbfounded at how good some DVD's look. Wow!




How's the oppo? I'm considering getting one of those for my father in law. We just chose the Pio Pro FHD1 for his den but I'm not sold on the whole Blu Ray/HD DVD debate. There's a new 981 coming out that upconverts to 1080p, which we'll probably get.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 04:11 AM
Scott, the Panasonic plasma that others have mentioned is fine, but for an LCD within your budget consider this .
Posted By: grunt Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 05:16 AM
About two months ago I bought a Samsung HL-S5687 DLP and love it. It also comes in a 50 inch which is a little closer to the size you mentioned. I think that Samsung has now put out an HL S5088 model with some additional features which you might want. Might also give a chance to get the previous model on sale.

The 10,000 : 1 contrast ratio is what finally sold me on it. The picture just looked better than the other models I compared it to.

I can’t remember the model but it was a 37 inch Sony HD CRT that had the best picture of anything I looked at but it just weighed to much.

Dean
Posted By: spiffnme Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 07:26 AM
I'd not heard of the Oppo having issues (I stay away from AVS like the plague). Oddly enough the first disc we put in, The Shawshank Redemption had some very odd issues. Often there were major blocking issues in the blacks, and there was an odd "ghost-like" image whenever there was back and forth movement, along with some other oddities that would be difficult to explain. I was starting to panic thinking that it was another bad tv.

We then put in Kingdom of Heaven and all of the issues we'd been seeing with the first disc were gone. In fact this disc looked pretty darn good!

Next up was one of my personal favorites, Fargo. Holy shnikes! Absolutely amazing picture. I've seen HD DVD and this was close...and I was sitting only about 5' away! The movie sucked us in, and we ended up watching the entire thing. Wow...can DVD look any better?

Yep...Moulin Rouge. It was getting late, so I couldn't stay for the entire movie, but my god...The first close-up of Nicole Kidman looked better than any image I've ever seen on a television.

So...where does that leave me? The issues with Shawshank were not minor, but how do you explain the next three discs? Is it the Oppo? The disc?
Posted By: KC23 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 12:11 PM
I had similar issues with ambient light washout issues. I ended up with a Samsung 50" plasma. Very glad I went with the plasma, it has zero washout issues. Inky blacks.

I'm sure the 42" would likely fit into your budget.
Posted By: LightninJoe Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 01:35 PM
I have to remember the "garbage in, garbage out" rule. 1 out of 4 seems to point to a source material issue, not a hardware issue. And yeah, you have to put your industrial strength crap filters on when wading through AVS.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 02:36 PM
The macroblocking issue, concerning the Oppos with the faroudja chip (971/981), seems to be a factor, primarily, with displays that also have the faroudja chip, such as the Samsung DLPs. Proper calibration of the display seems to render the problem inconsequential or nonexistent. I have the 971 and have used it with two different Samsung DLPs, both professionally calibrated, and have never noticed a macroblocking problem.
Posted By: LightninJoe Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 02:55 PM
Good info. I'm about to pull the trigger on a 981HD to go with my new set. The Oppo people told me the macroblocking issue doesn't pop up on the HD-ILA sets much if at all, unless the calibration is really screwed up to begin with.

BTW I'll put the Oppo sales and support team up near the Axiom folks in terms of outstanding service.
Posted By: LightninJoe Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 03:11 PM
Grunt-

Contrast ratios and screen brightness seem to be bygone issues with most current-generation displays. Funny thing about contrast ratios (and most manufacturer specs): The spec for my sets contrast ratio was some blah blah figure like 8 or 9k to 1 or something but most real-world tests (meaning on sets calibrated for home use in normal conditions) the figures were closer to 1000:1. Remember the manufacturers post "best-case" numbers. They max out the settings in a controlled environment. The actual picture quality when they do this is probably horrible, but it produces the numbers they want. But brightness, black blacks and white whites and the rest are much better now than even a couple of years ago, from my own observations. The JVC 52z55 (?) I looked at 2 or 3 years ago looked great, but had some sharpness and artifacting issues and the blacks were a little washed out. The 56fn97 is I believe 2 generations newer and these issues are gone.
Posted By: sidvicious02 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 05:25 PM
Well thanks again for all the great suggestions everyone. There doesn't appear to be any reason not to consider a plasma tv in the mix according to what everyone is saying. As well thanks John, for your HP suggestion, that is a brand i would normally overlook because they are not widely available. That set looks like a great deal however. Lots to think about when i start shopping, but i'll just make sure i get an opportunity to see every set possible.

I guess to summarize, it looks like i am even farther away from a decision now than i was before! So really, thanks for nothing!
Posted By: Hutzal Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 06:42 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you do alot of console gaming on your TV, I would lean away from plasmas due to burn in issues.
Posted By: oldskoolboarder Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 06:53 PM
Quote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if you do alot of console gaming on your TV, I would lean away from plasmas due to burn in issues.




That's a myth. If you properly calibrate your display, burn should be no issue.

I have been playing Gamecube, Mac Mini, and Wii on my Panny plasma for 3 years. No burn in. And I guarantee you I've been having some LONG gaming sessions on my plasma playing Zelda lately.

Also, w/ games, LCD response time can be an issue, but not necessarily so on plasmas. The improved blacks on plasmas also make the games look better too.
Posted By: Hutzal Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 07:18 PM
Actually its not a myth. I have friends that have calibrated their plasmas and still get burn in (talking about gaming for 10+ hours).

Technology might be better on newer plasmas, but the risk of burn in will always be there for a plasma TV. Period.
Posted By: bugbitten Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/14/06 07:42 PM
Burn in is why I went LCD. So much tv is not full screen and looks terrible stretched.

The plasma is in my son's room, He doesn't care if everything is zoomed.
Posted By: grunt Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/15/06 01:40 AM
Quote:


Contrast ratios and screen brightness seem to be bygone issues with most current-generation displays...




LightninJoe

Your point about specs. is well taken, thanks for the info. I should have noted that I did compare the Samsung side by side with a similar Sony and Mitsubishi tweaking all the settings myself. Overall I thought the picture looked better on the Samsung. It just seemed to have more depth and I attributed that to the different contrast ratios. I give the Sony credit for tracking motion better without blurring the detail as much.

Dean
Posted By: jakewash Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/15/06 06:14 AM
Quote:

Actually its not a myth. I have friends that have calibrated their plasmas and still get burn in (talking about gaming for 10+ hours).

Technology might be better on newer plasmas, but the risk of burn in will always be there for a plasma TV. Period.



You said "Calibrated their displays and still get burn in." Did it go away? True burn in won't go away.

Did they ever have a burn in issue with a CRT?

I find it hard to believe you would get burn in from video games as the back grounds are constantly changing. I might bet that the games were left on stagnant displays(paused) for breaks and that would be what caused the burn in.

The newer(less than 2yrs old) Plasmas are said to be better at not having burn in issues, however, now that the viewing angles for LCD's has come way up their isn't much difference, other than response times ,to affect the decision of Plasma or LCD, Prices are nearly the same now as well.
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/15/06 12:59 PM
Many video games have head-up displays that show your health, a compass, a radar, etc. Those are always in the same location on the screen. Hence the burn-in possibility.
Posted By: Hutzal Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/15/06 03:38 PM
Quote:

Many video games have head-up displays that show your health, a compass, a radar, etc. Those are always in the same location on the screen. Hence the burn-in possibility.




Was just about to mention the HUD on games. This is what causes the burn in potential.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/15/06 08:15 PM
But burn in after only 10hrs? Not disputing, just sayin, still hard to believe. The old monochrome PC monitors took longer than that to take a burn on the screen.

And yes I haven't been into the new gaming systems for awhile, I figure if I wanted to play those type of games I would use my PC, way better control and graphics, at least the last time I played anything in that way.
Posted By: Lorenzo1000 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/16/06 03:49 AM
Well just to add to the mix I recently acquired a 50 inch LG plasma (50PC3D). Picked it up from the local Bestbuy who had matched the price at Visions. It's not quite as good as the Panny but it was also only $2288 CDN, which was a little over $400 cheaper than the Panasonic Plasma. For the $$$ it looks very good.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/16/06 08:49 AM
But you had it delivered to the wrong address!
Posted By: Lorenzo1000 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/16/06 04:53 PM
Sorry Jake, I forgot your address. I guess you'll have to drive to Winnipeg to pick it up.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/17/06 08:49 PM
Found this on Best Buys site.

Quote:

Plasma

Plasma displays function differently than any other TV technology in that they actually produce light independently at each pixel on the screen, as opposed to projecting a separate light source through or off of other elements to conjure a picture. A plasma "screen" is actually a dense network of individual cells, three for each pixel of the display (coated with red, green and blue phosphors, respectively).
Each cell is impregnated with a rare-gas mixture and connected to an individual electrode. When the electrode for a given cell is charged with an electrical voltage, the gas is converted to a plasma state and emits a burst of ultraviolet light; this in turn causes the phosphors to react and produce bright visible light at the pixel level. By varying the voltage and intensity of the electrical charge, the proper combination of red, green and blue light is produced in each pixel to combine into a bright, colorful composite image. Plasma TVs are available in sizes from about 40" up to 70"+, but be prepared for sticker shock as your size desires increase.

Strengths
Obviously, plasma TVs are desirable for their sleek form factor — about 4" deep and wall-mountable, they're undeniably sexy. Furthermore, plasma produces a very bright image that can be viewed in a well-lit room, with superb color accuracy and saturation. It's a matter of opinion, but many videophiles regard plasma's color vibrancy as beyond compare among current technologies. Because the light is produced at the screen rather than projected onto it, focus is consistent and reliable across the entire screen surface, and plasma screens can be viewed from angles as severe as 160 degrees off-axis without detrimental effect. And plasma's accurate pixel structure produces a picture that is geometrically perfect from edge to edge and corner to corner, with uniform light output and a crisp, lifelike image.

Considerations
Early plasma TVs got a bad rap for their susceptibility to "burn-in" from static images such as stock-tickers and video-game gauges. Recent designs have largely eliminated this problem, incorporating (among other approaches) "pixel-orbiting" technologies that shift images, almost imperceptibly, over time to limit the occurrence of burn-in. However, if you are an avid gamer, you may wish to consider an alternative technology like flat-panel LCD, which is immune to burn-in.

Additionally, although known for their high contrast (relative to LCD) and spectacular color saturation, plasma displays have historically had difficulty reproducing pure blacks. Recent enhancements have significantly mitigated this problem, but sometimes at the expense of fine detail in dimly-lit areas of the picture.

The bottom line
Overall, plasma has maintained a reputation as the no-compromise high-tech HDTV display technology. While that's not entirely accurate, there's no question that a plasma TV on your living room wall will deliver amazing video performance – and, quite likely, a parade of drooling friends through your door as well.





I knew I read it somewhere, although I'm sure it wasn't here.
Posted By: x94blair3 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/18/06 02:58 AM
DLP! Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Nick
Posted By: millerbrad Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/18/06 02:37 PM
Quote:

Was just about to mention the HUD on games. This is what causes the burn in potential.




I don't know about all plasma sets, but I bought the 58" version of the Panasonic plasma (TH58PX60U). The set has been running for about 100-200hrs now, and I've actually already put in a couple marathon gaming sessions (6-8hrs). I haven't seen even a hint of burn-in, or even image retention, which I actually resigned to think would be a foregone conclusion.

Plasmas have come a long way, my friend...
Posted By: Ray3 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 12/21/06 02:30 AM
The current plasmas have much less burn-in problems. Certainly marathon gaming may cause some image retention, but that goes away when you switch from the gaming. The Pannys have a "Screen wipe" that helps out as well.

One thing to consider is a commercial version of the Panny plasmas. They do not have a tuner (if you are hooked up to a cable or satellite box, they will be your tuner) and there are no speakers (again, hooked up to your sound system). Handsome savings when you don't need to pay for redundant tuner/speakers.

I have a 42" commercial plasma in the great room above the fireplace and I'm very happy with it. If you get one, you will need a wall mount (Peerless model for around $100)

Some models to consider:
> TH-42PH9UK ($1,025 plus shipping)
> TH-50PH9UK ($1,695 plus shipping)

The above are prices from Visual Apex. They and New Egg (similar prices) have integrity and Customer Service that equals Axiom. I got my Panny from New Egg and the transaction was simple.

AVS has some extensive info on these models in the Plasma forum.
Posted By: sidvicious02 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 01/03/07 10:17 PM
Just to add a little bit of follow up info for anyone that might be interested in the remainder of the story....happy New Year all, btw!

There were a couple of bargains to be had over boxing day. However we backed off at the last minute after we did some furniture movement in the room and realized we had a bit more room than we thought. We plan focusing $$$ on the new larger tv for the downstairs which will be required in the next few months. So far i've been looking at:

Toshiba 72MX196
Samsung HL-S7178W

FYI, the couple of bargains that were available over boxing day was (Canadian $$$):
Toshiba 42HP86 @ $1200
Samsung HP-S4233 @ $1300
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 01/03/07 10:33 PM
Front Projection. You know you want it. Why buy 72" when you can get 120" for less?

Does "downstairs" mean you can control the light?

Come on, Scott. Randy, Dave, John and Mike will help set you up, I'm sure.

Less is not more. More is more.
Posted By: sidvicious02 Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 01/04/07 03:06 PM
Don't think the thought hadn't occurred to me, Tom! Actually though the basement is relatively light controlled, the screen would have to hang down in front of a large window to the front of the house (it's a bi-level type design). So then i'd have to start looking at backing for a screen as well as being retractable...a few too many ifs there, so i think to start with i'll go with the rear-proj and probably a couple of years down the line get into the front-proj. Too much to buy, not nearly enough dough!
Posted By: ctown Re: Suggestions on a New TV??? - 01/06/07 07:33 PM
Jakewash is pretty much correct in his assessment. The big thing is to know where your going to put the TV, what you like to watch and how far you will sit from it. General rule of thumb is 2.5X the diagonal length of your TV is a safe seating distance. We now find the 61" small at 14 ft, so I would say go 50" if you can.

I bought a 61" Lcos based rear projection because it would be in a living room exposed to sunlight. If I got a plasma it would have a huge glare from the reflective screen, so putting it in the basement where there is not a lot of sunlight is perfect for plasma.

Plasma image retention is rarely an issue and only if you leave images on it for extended periods of time and dont break it in properly.

Both LCD and Plasma have great viewing angles,(projection does not) but generally plasma has a shorter response time of 4ms vs. some LCD which are 8ms.....that means you may see some ghosting on fast moving images, but many LCD owners dont notice that.

My personal preference for 42 or 50" is plasma. Panny, Pioneer and Hitachi are great brands and prices are coming down. for 37" or smaller, I'd go LCD. Bang for buck is RPTV(Lcos is the superior technology) but viewing angle is a drawback.

Good luck
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