Hi All

This is my first post here so I want to first of all thank you all for the great information that flows through these boards. And thank you Alan for all the help you've given me thus far via e-mail. So much to learn!

I recently joined the Family Axiom with a pair of incredible M22tis and will soon purchase a VP150. I use a Yamaha RXV630 receiver to drive everything. I'm slowly replacing an AR satellite (HC6) system I mistakenly bought a few months ago. One item I bought as an 'upgrade' to the satellite system's subwoofer is an AR PR1212 subwoofer. Fine with music, not so with HT - the explosions in U571, for example, rumble from my head to my upeer chest cavity and stops there. I want to feel my stomach in at least a little bit of turmoil when those explosions happen - so back goes the AR PR1212. Budget is an issue (as I guess it is to one degree or another with everyone) so I've been contemplating an HSU VTF-2, the SVS 25-31 PCi or perhaps one of Axiom's upper two models. My system use is 60% HT and 40% audio. Thanks for any feedback.

Phil

PhilK

I would buy an EP350 if I were you. I just picked one up, and it's far better than most 12 inch subs I have heard. It is unbelievably tight, controlled, and loud.

SVS subs are good, but very, very large. I much prefer the look of an EP350. I recently read on another post that someone did a direct comparison between SVS and Axiom, and preferred the Axiom. Don't forget, SVS' are the size of small water heaters.

HSU is also good but I have never heard of someone preferring HSU over Axiom or SVS.

I agree with Patchwork. Like you my short list included Axiom, Hsu, and SVS. I decided to go for EP350 because I believe its performance-price ratio is better than Hsu and SVS. More so if you are buying Axiom's matched home theater system which in my calculation is 5% off regular prices.

Besides, I was turned off by SVS business attitude. If you read their SVS news page, they wrote "We can't reveal just what subs will or won't increase at this time, nor can we say (even in private e-mail) what final prices will be on the 22nd. You should assume that prices will go up, though at least a couple may not, we're really still crunching the numbers" I read it as "We do not know our costs, we do not know how much we want to charge you yet, we do not know which subs will increase in price, a couple may not but we cannot tell you which ones, you should assume that you would pay us more starting on the 22nd" Despite the bulky sub, their products might be good but I sure would like to deal with a compay that knows what it is doing.

Hey Phil, take a look at the reply I got from John Henderson back on 21 Nov.. It's here under the same catagory, page 2, SUB-jective thoughts.. He had the opportunity to do a side by side on a couple of heavy hitters in the sub world.. Take a look.. Hope that helps..

Thanks for the responses. There was a review that I found at e-coustics.com that compared Axiom's 350 with the HSU VTF-3 and SVS 25-31PCi. While he concluded that all were good, this particular reviewer put the SVS at the top. I'd like to avoid the SVS - it's so darn big! In reading consumer comments, the HSU and the 350 suffer from chuffing when pushed. If chuffing is like the sound that a whale makes from its blow hole, then that drives me nuts. When I play the trailers (my HT test)on the Lord on the Rings DVD, the 8" AR chuffs like crazy. The 12" didn't, but like the 8", it can't go down to the depths that I want it to. Man, I hate budget constraints. This just ain't easy!

Phil

well, yeah, i hear an SVS wil chuff less on lord of the rings than and EP350.. but an SVS is more expensive, and it is not nice to look at. It's a throw up at this point!

The AR PR1212 that I shipped back today was rated down to 20hz. I went to, pardon the expression, Circuit City during lunch and listened to a Velodyne CHT12 (their low man on the totem pole series). It is rated down to 25hz. However, the Velodyne rumbled in my belly, the AR couldn't come close. However the Velodyne was a bit muffled, rumbly and kind of 'sloppy' sounding where the AR was tighter and more composed. Unfortunately, it just couldn't reach down to the bottom like the Velodyne despite its specs. I guess I'll just have to take a plunge in some direction at some point. BTW is anyone familiar with Energy's subwoofers?

Hi Phil,

Be very skeptical of subwoofer low-frequency response claims. They tend to be very optimistic (20 Hz from the AR? In their dreams!!) I think I told you in an email what happens to once fine-quality brand names that get swallowed up by large conglomerates driven only by profits and not performance.

By the way, the Velodyne "sloppiness" might well have been a product of room/placement interaction. It's often hard to separate those contributing factors.

Regards,

try vmps if you want a nice sub-no port chuff(passive radiator)they make small and big ones - i have the vmps large with a 100 wpc amp.

My Mirage Bipolar BPS 150 is a dual 8 inch sub. Goes down to 22Hz. Pretty musical and tight due to smaller 8 inch drivers but it gives a very loud low tight bass. And there definitely does not have 'port chuff' because there are no ports.
http://miragespeakers.com/products/currentproduct/bps/bps150/index.htm

I have a HSU VTF-2, and I like it so much that if it got stolen I'd buy another one without auditioning anything else. I watched Lord of the Rings this weekend and experienced no port chuff whatsoever.

"I'm slowly replacing an AR satellite (HC6) system I mistakenly bought a few months ago. "

Me too! Did you get suckered in by the two reviews that heaped praise on the system? There was one in The Perfect Vision by someone named Tom Wiilson, and another one online at HomeTheater Sound by Jeff Van Dyne that raved about this system to high heaven. Wiilson laid it on pretty thick, saying this was one of the most remarkable products he had found in 20 years of reviewing! I should have been suspicious that all the other reviews I could find rated it from slightly above to slightly below average for its price. To my ears there was a big hole in between where the sats died out and the subwoofer came in.

I am so happy with the M3s I bought. I can actually say the cliche that I'm hearing things in my favorite CDs that I didn't know were there! Especially vocal effects and accents that weren't audible before, now simply pop out. It's quite fun to pick out an old CD to get to hear new things in it!

I probably read a review or two that influenced me, but mostly I tried to convince myself that $425 for the HC6 system was all I really needed to spend for a home theatre speaker package. However, I forgot that I like when a voice sounds like a voice and a piano sounds like a piano! That I like to clearly hear the distinctive sounds of the various instruments in a band/orchestra/ensemble, etc. And that I like closing my eyes and visualizing where each sound is coming from on the imaginary stage in front of me. If my room were small, they might have been effective for home theatre, but the room is big and the speakers, especially the sub, just couldn't handle it. Did you sell your HC6 system? How did you do it and what were you able to get for it? I ended up buying two Axiom M22ti's for the mains, another M22ti for the center channel and a pair of QS8s for the surrounds and an Hsu VTF-3. I still have one of the AR satellites acting as the rear center (yich!). That will be replaced with either another QS8 or M22ti when I figure out how to sell the HC6 system.

Phil

Luckily I realized I wasn't happy with the HC6 within 30 days, so I returned it. My VTF-2 arrives tomorrow, so I will finally get to hear some real bass!

And hear it you will................ENJOY

ahhh...Hsu, you're going to LOVE it.

Hi

I use a stereo subwoofer set up in my main HT system - the Outlaw ICBM-1 bass management module permits stereo sub outputs. So, I've been using a supposedly 1640 watt Klipsch LF-10 and Velodyne CHT10 to help fill in the lower octaves for a pair of M60 like front speakers, a pair of M50 like side surrounds, some Mission 77ds back surrounds and a giant Klipsch KLF-C7 center speaker.

So, my friend made me order an SVS 20-39 subwoofer. It came today. A couple of really big guys brought it upstairs for me. We swapped it for the Klipsch, calibrated it and watched the ring (cut the finger off) scene from the DTS 6.1 version of The Ring Thing.

First of all, I'd like to warn anyone who is considering an SVS 20-39 - it looks like a small nuclear reactor. Others may think it looks like a black water heater, but I'm pretty sure it looks more like a naval nuclear reactor.

The sound ... HOLY ZAMOLIES!!!!!! Pure, clean, fast, violent, low, low, low bass. No chuffing, no rumbling, just your basic sonic shock waves which will compress your internal organs, make you have to go to the bathroom, howl like a chimp, flap your cheeks, bass.

Never heard the likes before. I'm impresssed. It is very, very big, however.

Welcome to SVS-ville, the land of pure bass satisfaction!

Which model ? PCi, PC Plus, or CS series ? If the later, what are you powering it with ?
I have been putting off the purchase of a true quality sub for so long now.. Who would have guessed that this would become the most difficult part in creating the home theater/stereo sound system ?? At least it is for me.. Talk about dragging my feet, sheeeesh..

Guessing that you are difficult to impress, that was a pretty sparkling review. (Head scratching...) How can I get the wife to accept the black water heater thing when I just bought a sub from Axiom?

Ah, my friend, bad news there! Not only is there probably no way your wife would accept such a monstrosity in your home, but worse, trying to sneak it past her could get you seriously hurt.

Of course, I do not presume to know anything about your wife, however, my long term association with the fair, unappended gender, my continuing wonderment at how differently their brains work, all conspire to inform me that you'd be lucky to survive the attempt.

However, my experience is with ladies from south of our northern border. It may be that your results may differ in Canada.

Hello Mikey

It's the pci 20-39. I think the plus version would have cracked my house.

Thanks mi amigo..
Would you mind telling me the size of your room? Does it open to another, and if so, can it be closed off ?
I am going to make a mock-up of the SVS this weekend, to give me an idea of the way it's size and shape will fit in with my gear..

That's my big issue with looking at the SVS subs as well.
I just cannot bring myself to plunk a garbage can shaped item into my basement.
I just know that company would try and use it.

There's nothing much worse than having to dig garbage out of the tube innards (i believe someone had this problem with kids toys into the sub ports not long ago).

I'm pretty sure there's a screen across the top. You can't put anything inside it without really trying.

Yeah, that seems to be the biggest (sic) concern everyone has with the tube type SVS subs.. But even Alan admits it takes volume/power/size to make bass.. Seems SVS is pretty stong in all three of those values ? But the 'ugly' part is hard to get passed, eh.. I'm thinking, with nothing but T/V and speakers against the one wall, and as I'm planning to hang a movie theater looking black curtain across that wall, all the gear will will just blend in, and not look so massive and in yer face ??

The SVS has a large screened cap on the top. Try to avoid pouring drinks into it, most folks won't confuse it with a garbage can ... it's way too big for a garbage can.

Room size is about 20' x 25' maybe a bit narrower than 20'.

Mikey, if you could put the SVS behind the black curtain you would have a winning layout. I can tell you I am seriously conflicted here. The sound is unbelievably good. On the other hand, I'm filled with revulsion every time I look at this enormous, industrial monstrosity in my room.

The SVS is just too big. Stick with HSU. Sounds better anyway IMHO.

I haven't seen it in person, but in the pictures it doesn't look too bad. Like a HumVee (not the new H2), it looks like it was designed with a focus purely on function. It would have a certain "conversation piece" effect in my family room, though. Every conversation would start, "What the hell is that?"

Toys in the ports? You're kidding right?

Yeah, Jim, can't imagine where he got a siily idea like that. Maybe it was the wine again. By the way, since it's now been over 6 months probably everybody's stopped laughing.

The ports make for a great Hot Cars bat cave i suppose.
But i guess, you WOULD know better than myself.

Where are you at in CA? If you don't want it maybe we can work something out.

Hello Big Will
I'm in Newport Beach. You're welcome to check it out and the M60 like Michaura M665s, M50 like M66s etc. I haven't decided what to do with it. The guy who talked me into it brought one home. His wife just took a quick vacation to Vegas. It's possible she's trying to tell him something.

Where are you located?

That would be cool. I'm in Corona, but we do make it down to the beach on occasion. I'm off work until Sept. so I'm pretty flexible. Maybe send me a PM for a good time to stop by. Always looking for an excuse to visit the Newport Beach Brewing Company - top notch suds and pub grub.

I'm happy to report that there haven't been any further incidents of my M60's ports being used as a parking garage.