My question is really two fold. I am looking at purchasing the Denon 3808CI and I am being told from Denon it will not work with the 4 ohm M80 speakers. They said it will heat up and shutdown after a few minutes.I called Axiom and they said it will work fine. So, my first question is, does anyone here have this setup? Second questions is, for the cost of the Denon 3808CI, can I purchase a respectable pre-out and amp? Is there really that much of a difference between the separates and an A\V receiver?

Thanks, Scott...

Seems many people are running M80s very happily on various Denon's of both higher and lesser caliber here in this forum. Denon is probably playing it safe to avoid litigation should someone push the limits to obscene levels with the volume knob or something.

I only have M60s but when Im on boring conference calls I tend to post on almost anything... Someone who knows for sure will likely chime in shortly.

Strange. The Denon manual specifies minimum 6Ohm. So, I guess this is a good question for all Denon owners: are they simply overly protective in their manuals or is this particular model/line different?

My 90W/channel Denon from a few years ago has no issues whatsoever. Companies don't usually change a design that "works" so I doubt very much that this higher end Denon amp can't drive the 80s.

I'll bet that whoever you were talking with at Denon simply goes by the spec in the book and has no practical experience in this area. Try to get to someone who has deep knowledge.

Mojo, as curiosity, does your manual also specifies min of 6Ohm?

Mojo, I agree with what you are saying, but this would be a very expensive mistake if I am wrong and Denon is right. I would really like first hand knowledge from someone that has this particular setup.

Yes, my manual specifies 6 Ohm as well and a dynamic rating of 200WX2 channels into 2 Ohms. Smuth, you may want to read this. And FYI, I've ran M22s in parallel with M80s and M60s in parallel with M80s on this little Denon with no ill effect.

It really sounds like extra caution.

I"m in the process of setting up my HT and should have an answer for you in a week. I'm receiving all the gear right now:

Pioneer Elite 150FD
Pioneer 95 BluRay
Denon 3808
Axiom M80's, 150CC, QS8, EP500 sub.

Right now everything is in transit to my house and I am having an electrician wire the Power to to the TV behind a wall and into a Monster Power Conditioner, so that's why it will take a week... but I'll be able to tell you for sure.

I had the same concerns as you. I was going to buy either the Denon or Pioneer Receivers and from the advise on AUDIOHOLIC, AVS, AXIOM, and several other sites all said the DENON should work fine, so I took the plunge.

- Jeff

Mojo, thanks for posting that info. All those stats make my brain hurt. So it looks like the 3808 will definitely work unless they have some new technology built into it the will not work with the 4ohm speakers.

So, on to the second part of my question. Is it possible to purchase a component set that will produce better sound than the 3808 in the same price range? If so, what are your suggestions?

Also, is there a huge difference in sound between the m60 and m80? I know this is all relative, but is it worth the extra $ for the m80's? I have a smaller room, but I may be moving them to the basement(bigger) down the road.

Hi Smuth10,

None of the mainstream AV receiver manufacturers ever specify their products will work into 4-ohm loads. However, through tests at Axiom and lots of customer feedback, the following brands of AV receivers (even the entry-level models of Denon and Sherwood Newcastle) will drive the M80s to quite loud levels in normal sized rooms:

Denon, Sherwood Newcastle, Outlaw Audio, NAD, Rotel, and B&K (I may have forgotten one. . .)

If you have a huge "great room," (6,000 cu. ft or more) or prefer extremely loud, CLEAN, 100-dB+ playback levels, which of course the M80s will reproduce so long as you have amplifiers of several hundred watts per channel, then get a separate power amplifier for the M80s (preferably the Axiom A1400-8!).

The brands of AV receivers that have overly aggressive protection circuitry that will shut down if they detect a 4-ohm load (or if the user moves an impedance switch to the 4-ohm setting) or go into severe current limiting, are: Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, Yamaha and so on.

And tell Mojo to stop quoting that utterly bogus "dynamic power output" spec, which misleads consumers into thinking their AV receiver will drive low impedances for longer than a few milliseconds!

The only dynamic power output rating that is standardized is expressed in dB, as in "2 dB of dynamic headroom." Virtually no manufacturer ever uses this spec, since the bogus one yields huge power output figures.

Regards,

Alan

Alan, all THX-Ultra2 receivers are able to drive 3Ohm without effort and are documented as such. Since there are an increasingly larger number of them, you may want to include that in your list.

Hi,

I'll wait until we have enough customer feedback, or a THX certified unit in-house driving the M80s, before I include any THX units.

THX turned into a royalty-generating company that so diluted their standards that most knowledgable AV journalists long ago dismissed their various "certifications" as highly dubious.

Alan

In side by side comparison the M80 sounds more forward and detailed at lower volumes than the M60. I noticed a lack of forwardness when I received M60s and had M22s to compare them to. I now have M80s.

As far as seperates go I think you would end up paying a few dollars more for them compared to the Denon, the Sherwood Newcastle separates Axiom sells is more than the Denon by a few bucks $3400 for both pre/pro and amp.

And just to further boost you about Denon's robust amplification I own the 1804, mid-line model, and it ran my M22s and VP150 in parralel, about a 3 ohm load, as a center channel with no problems.

Alan,

I really don't know what that dynamic power spec means. I know for a fact that my Denon can't drive 200W into 2 Ohms...at least not at all cleanly. I use the dynamic power for reference only. If mine does 200W and the 3808 does 400W for example, then the 3808 should also be able to drive the 80s.

Stop with the bogus calims Tex. There I told him, we all know he doesn't listen though

Seriously he (Tex) would never try to mislead anyone. Except for the 1/4 watt crap

Well, I did mislead people with Mojo toe-in. It's actually a half watt...but what's a quarter watt between friends .

You didn't mislead with the Mojotoein you just didn't know any better I think I just mislead a few with the 1/4 watt comment

That Denon wil do mine. My 2805 Denon from a few years ago had no problems with my 80's. Many 4ohm speakers drop below 4 ohm, the Axioms are pretty stable at 4 ohm and above.

Scott, due to possible legal liability concerns, in manuals and often even in discussion with company representatives there is an unrealistically cautious approach to operating speakers which are nominally rated at 4 ohms. Amplifiers don't know and don't care what the impedance of the speakers that they're driving is; for a given loudness level they have to supply a certain voltage and current, following Ohm's Law. Any amplifier(as we've learned, even one in a boom box capable of 2 watts or so)can drive a 4 ohm speaker at some loudness level. How loud and how long are the determining factors, not 4 ohms per se.

For most real-world uses the 3808 or similar models from other companies such as Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha should do fine with M80s. In the vast majority of cases these receivers are the sensible cost-effective buy, rather than buying two or three separate boxes for the same function.

I called denon customer support a while back asking the same question. (can the new '08 models drive 4 ohm speakers) The lady said "yes, but we do not recomend it"

I asked if they can drive 4 ohm speakers then why don't they recomend it...?

She replied that there is more of a chance that you may damage your amplifier or some crap

Scott - I'm running a pair of M3's (mains for a 6.1)on a Denon AVR 1906. The amp was purchased just one month after the M3ti's were settled. Although this post doesn't actually answer your question specifically, I will say the slightly warm presentation of the Denon is an absolute perfect fit. From a sonic perspective, I sense this relaxes the metal drivers ever so slighly and delivers that signature Axiom sound and yet remain forward. I can this same result from an upgrade Denon amp and the M80's.

It would take a heck of a lot of power to relax those aluminum drivers .

Scott, if it makes you feel any better, I drove an M80/M60/M22/M3/mystery speaker (1.25 Ohms nominal) all in parallel today from my cheap Denon. It was for a brief 15 seconds at about 75dB but it did it. Since all of the speakers were mine, I didn't want to experiment for too long. But if they were all mine, I would have kept playing.