I am looking for a sub to go with my M60s, QS$, and VP-100 setup.
First, do you guys think I need a sub? To me, the setup it sounds very crsip and accurate but the bass response is not terribly powerful. My "theatre" room is roughly 20 x 12 x 8. We usually listen to way more music than watch movies so I am mostly interested in subs that can reproduce music accurately. I am not looking for big booms that are overdone. Searching the forums it sounds like Hsu and Velodyne are good ones to look at. What about Axiom, Aperion? I am avoiding mass market (Polk, JBL, Infinity, etc) but maybe there is a gem in there?
Your thoughts and collective experience is appreciated.

Thanks
Mark

SVS is an online only company that used to just make subs but has now branched into speakers as well. Most who have an SVS sub rave about them?!
Mike

If I were in your shoes, I'd keep Axiom, SVSound, and Hsu Research on my short list. All three companies make great subs, thought the latter two brands can be had for a bit less money.

I also have M60s and mostly use them for music. Trust me; a nicely calibrated sub would definitely enhance your music listening experience. I bought a relatively cheap sub, the HSU2.3, and for the price I love it. Granted, I've never listened to a decent sub like the EP500/600, I would love to, and see what I'm missing...

You might consider a single or pair of EP175(s). I had this sub and really liked it for music. Very tight and musical. My first call to Alan Loft, he recommend this configuration.

It was great for music, but bottomed out in my 4000 cubic foot room for movies. So I upgraded to an EP500. However, your room is only 1920 cubic feet, so if you really not looking for the earth shattering bass, the 175 is a great little addition.

Mojo and I have talked in the past about getting a pair of EP175s just for music. I've got to get around to trying that some time.


Paul

If you truly are not interested in a sub for HT then the EP400 is it, but it will not shake the house for HT. I ran the EP400 with my M80s in a room very similar to yours and it filled in the low end perfectly, not loud and boomy. I had a Hsu STF2 in the house at the same time and I didn't have time to get it dialed in, but I felt it was too much for music, just a little too loud. I have heard Mojo's EP600 and it blends very nicely with his M80's but his room is twice the size of yours and mine.

AS you say the M60 alone don't have enough bass then you may in fact prefer more bass than you think. When I had the M60s, before getting the M80s, I felt they had lots of bass but I was going from M22s and a poor sub. I am still considering getting the EP400 just because it works so great for music.

The EP350v3 sounds to be a great musical and HT sub, I think that it would probably be a good sub for your requirements.

I realy like how my sealed sub works with my 2 channel system.

Axiom EP400, AV123 ULW 10, or similar.

Jason, that was an STF 3 you had which is now discontinued. I would look at the same three companies already listed. SVS is located in Ohio so maybe a visit to the factory is in order.

My impression from Aperion is that they don't spend the same amount of time on sub-specific R&D as the other companies that have been mentioned.

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate your thoughts. This is one of the reasons why I went with axiom for the other pieces.

After looking some more I am leaning toward an SVS sub. Probably on their lower end so it fits my budget. But who knows, maybe Santa will bring something to help out there.

You would be correct - sorry typo.

>>After looking some more I am leaning toward an SVS sub. Probably on their lower end so it fits my budget. But who knows, maybe Santa will bring something to help out there.

Just remember that "lower end" subs (ie like the ones most of us own) have to make more compromises than the higher end subs, and that's where your intended use starts to make even more difference. The lower end SVS subs seem to be optimized more towards movies, so their bass output is fantastic but not as "tight"**. For a primarily-music system you might want to look at the HSU and Axiom subs over SVSes.

** "tight" in this context means the ability to deal with bass signals which start and stop rapidly, eg. drums. The SVS subs seem to get relatively more bass output from the cabinet and port, which gives them a performance edge on movies, but since the port doesn't *stop* resonating instantly you can get some "hangover" on musical content. This isn't a black and white thing, just that at the low end SVS tends to lean a bit more towards big resonant cabinets while HSU and Axiom tend to lean a bit more towards less resonant cabinets and hence tighter musical performance.

I own an SVS by the way.

Very diplomatic, John. Your last sentence surprised me!

As I get further along in this hobby sound quality becomes more and more important. When I first started I was happy with my Sony bass module because it moved air in my room. At that point I didn't care how it moved air, just that it did. Then I moved up to a Klipsch sub, and it moved a lot of air, but in hindsight, didn't do so cleanly. Finally I ended up with a Hsu VTF3 mkII and finally understood the balance between power and finesse. Yes, the Hsu pressurized the room like nobody's business, but it also was able to resolve detail--like a rampaging bull elephant versed in ballet.

I think I'm done with my bad analogies for today!

Not bad. Elephant bull elephant is cool!

Also, it's funny to think that "lower end" subs can be bad, when the whole point of a subwoofer is to take care of the lower end.

Ironic, yes?

I now realize how much there is to learn about subs. Thanks for the advice -- now I don't know what to do.

Maybe go for Hsu VTf-2?. My budget is $500-600 (shipping/tax incl)

Any ideas on how the STF-2 and VTF-2 compare sonically? The STF is $349 (both are 10" - I believe)

I am mostly interested in the performance for music-things like a double bass or drums. The M60s just lack the low end presence. Of course, we'll watch movies and like to hear the explosions and rumbling effects.

Back to shopping/comparing/indecision.

Rampaging bull elephant? What about dancing hyppos like in Fantasia?

Hippos work, too.

I just like elephants better.

Don't ask me why.

Trunk.

The new VTF 2 is a 12" driver compared to the STF 2 with a 10" driver. I would opt for the new VTF 2 in a room of your size. I have both the VTF 2MK1 and a STF 3, it is all but impossible to hear a sonic difference. As far as the output it's no contest the STF 3 in the hands down winner.

>>I now realize how much there is to learn about subs. Thanks for the advice -- now I don't know what to do.

Don't let us worry you too much. We're just trying to give you as much info as possible before you purchase so you aren't always wondering afterwards if you bought the right sub. We're talking about relative nuances here -- but if you're like us those nuances can sometimes keep you up at night after making the purchase decision.

>>Maybe go for Hsu VTf-2?. My budget is $500-600 (shipping/tax incl)

Yeah -- for your room, budget and listening preferences I would probably lean towards the VTF-2 Mk 3. The new EP350 v3 is also looking very good but doesn't quite fit your budget, and the EP-175 is supposed to be real nice for music but probably won't keep up with the VTF-2 for movies. Note that the Hsu Mk2 and Mk3 are very different subs.

Only issue is if you have any kind of deep carpet in the listening room -- I always find the Hsu spikes / feet are too short to keep the woofer out of the carpet pile. If you lived in Canada you could just put the sub on four hockey pucks but I don't know what you would do south of the border.

>>Very diplomatic, John. Your last sentence surprised me!

I purchased the SVS (a 20-39PC+) when the older EP350 was the top of the Axiom line and I wanted something with a bit more deep bass extension. It was a relatively easy decision, although the shipping was a pain.

Nowadays it would be a much tougher choice because Axiom, SVS and HSU all have great offerings. Fortunately I have no money to spend on audio right now or I would probably be ordering an EP350v3, an EP500 or 600 *and* a Hsu VTF-3 HO with the ugly box

There are a couple of new subwoofer companies that started in car audio but are now making subs for HT/ Music which are generating a lot of buzz for their excellent performance at relatively low prices. The aren't exactly beautiful, and they can be a little larger, so be sure to check dimensions to see if they would work for you.

The first sub I'd like to offer for consideration is the Elemental Designs (eD) A5-350 ($600)

Here are some subwoofer rankings by an enthusiast who is very knowledgeable. He makes it clear that these are merely his educated opinions, and are meant to be a help in narrowing down your choices, rather than recommendations or "the last word." As you can see, in his opinion, the A5-350 scores very well and goes for a reasonable price. Every 3 points represents a 15% increase in performance.

At the moment he is putting an Epik Valor ($549) through it's paces. His testing isn't complete yet, but he's reporting a below 20Hz frequency response, and has given a preliminary music score of 47 (virtually the same as the A5-350).

I think you would find either of these subwoofers to be excellent performers, and a heck of a bang for the buck.

DISCLAIMER: I have an Axiom EP500, and couldn't be happier with it. It is a fantastic performer.

Thanks to everyone for the comments. Buying equipment sight unseen (or sound unheard) is tough -- but the internet defintely helps.

In case anyone cares, I went with the Hsu VF-2 Mk3 today. Should be here soon. Now I guess I need to get an SPL meter.

Mark

You made a good choice, you'll be happy with it.

>>I went with the Hsu VF-2 Mk3 today
>>Now I guess I need to get an SPL meter.

You might have to get the SPL meter from SVS

Seriously, SVS still has the Radio Shack analog SPL meters advertised for sale on their web site. They may have run out years ago, but it might be worth checking.

That's where I saw them! I couldn't remember for the life of me who was still advertising them. Sonicboom up here in Canada has them on their website with test discs, if I remember right.

I can borrow the one from work. Not sure how good it is (from VWR scientific) -- a standard supplier for lab equip.

I wonder if the spikes will be long enough for the carpet here. I might take bridgman's advice and use the hockey puck approach.

That is the sub I ended up with. Its nice and probably a lot bigger than you imagine.

M60s/Q8s/HSU VF2.3

Enjoy.

Hey, I was looking for a good idea for a side business. An E-business selling audiophile hockey pucks. Perfect! The premium ones would have Canadian Beer Logos on them. The cheapest would have Toronto Maple Leaf Logos. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

As long as you don't put the logo on BOTH sides, it's okay...

Axiom 500