All, I am a complete newbie on the forum - 1st post! I have just finished building a dedicated HT room in my basement that is in the final finishing stages of mudding and painting. I had already picked out my gear from a great local shop but not purchased yet. Of course I ran across the Axiom's on line and am now 2nd guessing my choice of speakers (Paradigm Cinema 330's). Due to room configuration I need a relatively slim on-wall solution. I have a speaker budget of $2500-$3000 for a 7.1 setup. I am hoping someone can help me with a comparison/opinion of the Paradigm Cinema 330's LCR with W-Series of Axioms? I can't seem to find any real opinions on the W-Series online so far. Amp will be a Pioneer Elite SC-05 (120W x 7). All advice and opinions are welcome. I hope to be hanging speakers on the wall in ~4 weeks from now, so need to decide relatively soon. Are there any W-series owners out there? I also read about an up and coming T line (on wall)from Axiom somewhere but no real info, does any info exist for them as well? Thanks in advance for any help!

The W series should be a level above the cinema series from Paradigm, i wasn't overly impressed with the cinema series, ut I am just going by owners reviews of the W series in comparison to my own impressions of the cinema series. The receiver will work great.

just wondering what size of room all of this is going into, Pics?

Hi jakewash. No pics yet, but rough not to scale layout is attached [img]http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/SxG3caPyTLCvThhZ9awrfA?feat=directlink[/img] . Lots of compounding things to consider, but didn't want my 1st post to be a novel. Room is ~14x15 feet with mix of 6.5 foot and 8 foot ceiling height due to duct work that I have boxed in with drywall. As you can see I have a front-back wall symmetry issue due to the funky corner (hides main sewer and water lines for house). I am 'ok' with the Cinema 330's, but not wowed by them. However in my budget I am having a hard time finding a better on wall solution. This is where the Axiom's enter into the equation. Can you link me to W series reviews? The specs clearly look better than the Paradigm's. From the Axiom site I am considering the Epic Master Architectural series. My main drawback on installing the W-series is that I'll have to open up my TV wall again to cut a stud to accommodate the in wall chamber for the W series center channel. That's why I really need to do my homework before I decide to audition these speakers. Thanks!

CB919, welcome

The VP100 and 150 aren't very deep, and are sealed, no ports on the back (wich means you can put them right up against a wall). Wondering if either of these would work instead of a W series center?

paul

Can you mix and match across series like that? Won't that affect matching of the front sound stage using 2 different speaker types for LR and C? I had not considered this but that might be an option. Also I did read somewhere in my trolling of a true on wall speaker from Axiom, anybody have info on that? It's not listed on the web site.

Axiom says that the M and W series in the same numbers sound the same, so that should be fine. I think we've seen people with that sort of setup (W22s, VP150). It's all the same woofers and tweeters, and probably similar crossovers.

I have zero to add as I have not used the W series, but as a general point I am surprised by the quality of the QS8. Relevance - building a good sounding speaker is hard, and doing it in a small package is even harder. So I would trust the W series to an extent based on the extreme quality and abilities of the Q.
Otherwise, if you prefer small speakers perhaps you should consider in-walls. There are fantastic in-walls now that take up no room. If you have access to the walls at this point, one of the biggest negatives is not there for you. Two cents exhausted.

I have never heard the Cinema 330's. But I do own the w22s, w150, qs8s and ep350. The on walls are incredible and beautifull. You can check out my setup in the gallery. You will not be dissapointed. Before I bought these I listened to Paradigm studio 100s. I absolutely loved them, but decided i could not spare the floor space. I don't really feel like I'm missing out now that i have the w22s. Paired with the sub they sound absolutely amazing.

If i had to do it over again the only thing I would do differently is buy a bigger sub.

Listener,
You're telling me that the W-22 compares favourably with the Studio 100's? I am amazed given the size/enclosure difference. If that is true you have potentially just moved me a bit closer to an Axiom audition. Have you heard the W3's? I like the idea of the W-22's but that pushes my budget and might be overkill for my space. Any opinions out there on W-3's vs. W-22's given the modest size of my HT (~14x15 feet)? On that note would the the EP-500 be too much for my space as well?

I found xlr8's pics of the W's in the gallery but could not find yours.

Zimm - I would actually love a honking big pair of floor standers, but my room and WAF rule that idea out! So I am not really interested in true in-walls either as I do like to see a nice set of matching speakers.

The biggest difference between the 3 series and the 22 series is that the 22s are more detailed and share the same drivers, thus timbre, as the Axiom center channels. The 3 series has a more laid back, lower toned sound. They both would work very well in your size of room. The EP500 would not be too much for your space as you calibrate it to match the rest of the system, it just gives you more headroom for really demanding scenes, if you can afford one then by all means get one. The other option would be to get an EP350 which might allow you to get the W22s instead of the W3's. There really isn't alot of difference between the 350 and 500. The 500 can play a little lower and has even more headroom, the only way i think most would notice is during an A/B listening session, especially in a smaller room like yours.

You can save a few bucks by going through the Factory outlet as well. These are speakers with cosmetic deficiencies that many of us have yet to find on our own FO purchases. You save 10% and will get an additional 5% for a HT discount(5 or more items).

Hi cb919,

Welcome to the Axiom forum. I'm delighted that Listener compared the sound of his W22s to Paradigm's Studio 100, but it doesn't surprise me.

I do most of the double-blind listening tests for existing and new models of Axiom speakers, and I can assure you that the W22s did not receive my go-ahead for production until in the blind tests vs. the M22s, the W22s received similar scores and rankings.

In the tests, when I write down "similarly good" to two different models (remember, I don't know what I'm listening to) and my preferences often change just with different music but the scores are so close that there is no statistical difference, then the speakers are essentially identical sounding.

As to the Paradigm Studio series, I own a pair of Studio 20s, and the M22s or W22s are virtually indistinguishable from the Studio 20s. I have a slight preference for the bit of extra detail I hear from the W22s, but when I pair them up on my own A/B switcher, I often forget which I'm listening to.

The W3s are really nice; the W22s have a bit more midrange detail and will handle a bit more peak power because they use three rather than two drivers. I'd recommend the W3s if you don't use a subwoofer because the W3s have a bit of a boost in the 100-Hz region that subjectively sounds like more bass when used on their own, without a sub.

I think you'll be thrilled with the sound of the W22s paired with a good subwoofer (the EP350 v3 has wonderful deep bass extension and power; it comes remarkably close to the EP500). The 500 goes a little bit deeper, is more linear, and is more powerful for very large rooms.

Regards,

You could also save money with a different brand of sub. Are you in the states?

Well keep in mind that the w-22 is not a full range floor standing speaker. I think most people would not compare the two speakers to each other as the studio 100s have an obvious advantage. But for me since I could not spare the floor space it was a good comromise. You're not going to get the same full range sound and the imaging will also not be the same as with the 100s, but it is still incredible especially for an on wall speaker. My room is about 25'x 20' x 8'. The speakers work great in a room this size. I now believe that there is no such thing as overkill for the subwoofer. I have never heard the m3s but have heard that they are slightly warmer than the m22s and have a little more bass.

The great thing about axiom is that you have 30 days to try them out. I honestly do not think you will be dissapointed. Even though I wish i had bought a larger sub I'm not really dissapointed plus I know I can still squeeze more performance out of the sub with better placement.

Listener - I am definitely integrating a sub with my setup - I am not letting all my soundproofing efforts go to waste! It's just that the Studio lineup was not in the cards for me so never thought to compare that level of speaker with the W-series.

Rick - I live in Ontario, Canada. Axiom sub prices look reasonable to me, but I am open to suggestion.

Allen - As the resident Axiom expert, what's your opinion of mating the W-3's or W-22's with a VP100/150 as Worfzara suggested to avoid installation issues? Is there a way to secure a VP to the wall directly?

You are all very helpful - thank you!!!

Darn, if you were in the states the choices would be a little different. I'll let the boys up there give you some ideas.

Paradigm 3100/3200/3400DSP, Energy/Mirage or PSB. The HSU, SVS, and Outlaw subs are very good choices, unfortunately they can be a little pricy once they cross the border. I chose the P'digm DSP3400 myself, roughly $730 Cdn but you can most definately get it for around $700. This sub, as the name implies, has the DSP chip and 300 watts continuous power which should be good with your Axioms, or the DSP3200 would be over $100 less but with the same power (except with a 12" driver vs the 3400's 14") and won't reach quite as low. I believe the Energy and Mirage speakers are more-a-less the same thing, now that Klipsch took them over. They might be worth looking at too.

Hi again cb,

The only way to mount a VP150 or VP100 to the wall is with the Axiom Full Metal Bracket, which has a bolt that screws directly into a recessed threaded inset on the rear panel of the 100 or 150 so you don't have to drill holes into the speaker's back panel. The bracket brings the speaker within a few inches of the wall behind it, and it tilts up or down so you can aim the center speaker towards the listening area if it's above or below the video display.

In terms of tonal balance, you can certainly mix the W22s with a VP100 or VP150 center rather than use the in-wall/on-wall W100 or W150, which require cutting a hole into the wall, as does the W22.

Regards,

Alan

cb19. If you live anywhere close to Axiom, I would recommend you go up and give the speakers a listen directly at the factory. For a smaller speaker, you could even order a set of both the W3 and W22 and compare them in your home. The cost of shipping a pair back should not be that much.

The only US base sub company that has reasonably priced products in Canada is SVS. Their products are sold by Sonic Boom Audio.

You can also build a small shelf for your center if you have a saw handy. If you are not overly handy, the Axiom mount sounds like a no-risk option that would fit your needs.

OK, I think I am almost there decision wise. Firstly I have to go home and figure out exactly where front wall LCR would go given my stud placement to ensure I haven't forgotten something - I have been on a business trip throughout these posts. I will use some cardboard cutouts to give me an idea.

I will explore the VP series with shelf vs. W series for center channel options.

So a few final questions:
1. QS4 vs. QS8 for surrounds. I am thinking QS4 due to room size, budget and WAF. Am I really giving much up going with the smaller surround sonically?

2. Factory Outlet Purchase - For those that have gone this route, has anybody found blemishes that are obvious and really detract from your speaker? Also, what are the lead times like, are they approximately what it says on the web page? (4 weeks for my selections is indicated)

3. Alan (note I got the spelling right this time!) and others with W-Series experience: Can I audition the W-Series without cutting holes in my walls? Return becomes less of an option once you've butchered your walls! I am thinking I can clip the speaker to the in-wall enclosure portion but use a temporary 'hanger' or shelf to place on my wall. Will this make a sonic difference to the speaker if it's not installed exactly as intended for auditioning purposes?

4. Placement near corner - I am struggling with keeping my front right channel out of the corner of the room but still tring to reduce the asymmetry of front wall vs. listening position. What is the minimum distance I can safely use from the corner to the closest edge of the right channel speaker? Here is the link to see approximate floor plan:
http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/SxG3caPyTLCvThhZ9awrfA?feat=directlink

Cheers all.

Have you considered flipping the room around? Center the display and seating position and then just deal with the column with one surround speaker. That would basically look identical to my room, and the asymmetric QS8 placement has not been an issue.
CZ room

Yeah, I played with all configurations, but I can't flip because the window gets in the way of wall mounting the flat panel display. Also, both me and my wife have issues with the entrance to the room being behind us when watching creepy movies! Also, since I am deep into this, all speaker wire and electrical and equipment racks are built, drywall and soundproofing installed etc.. so changing things is just not an option now. My wife is already laughing at me for considering a speaker change this late in the process! I had decided on speakers before closing walls (Paradigm Cinema 330's) so everything was run with those dimensions in mind. Of course it's Murphy's law that I discover Axiom's at this stage and not several weeks before when I was building walls! Hence my dilemma with altering the walls for W-Series.

If your plans called for the Paradigm and you like the sound why not just stick with them. That seems better than busting your b*lls trying to figure out how to change the plans.

Bells?

I haven't ruled that out yet Rick, but once I do this I have to live with it for sometime as the family budget will move on to other things. This is my chance to 'get it right'. I want to have that completely satisfied feel when I sit on the couch to enjoy some good audio and movies. I like the 330's but am not amazed by them. The next step up from Paradigm on-walls is a big leap in $$. But as I've said in a previous post, I have been unable to find a better on wall option within my budget until stumbling across the Axiom's. Of course I am hoping they will be a step up and give me that 'holy cow you gotta here this' feel based on what I've read and the specs, but I guess that's where the 30 day audition part comes in.

I wonder if ordering a set of M22s before the BIG purchase might be in order, then you could get a very good feel for the Axiom sound and I beleive as the W series is more expensive, Axiom might be willing to pay for the return shipping of the M22s in order to get the full HT purchase. Maybe call and discuss something of this nature with Axiom.

I like Jay's idea.

Factory Outlet is great.

I'd get 2 QS8's and just do 5.1 in that room. Really.

Fun!

Hi cb,

Yes, thanks for the correct spelling (for Canucks, there used to be a brand of apple juice in Canada with the spelling "Allen's Apple Juice). .

No, there are no visible blemishes, unless you get close with a big magnifying glass; even then, most can't seen any.

Go with the QS8s--larger woofers, better power handling and a better match to the W22s.

Yes, you can audition the W22s before cutting a hole, but keep in mind that there will be signifcantly less bass until the W22s are placed into the wall. But they do have a self-contained ported enclosure that isn't dependent on the wall cavity. The increase in bass when they're stuck into the wall comes from the boundary reinforcement of the surrounding wall surface.

You will be thrilled with the neutrality of the W22s compared to the Paradigms you look at. The Paradigms are good, just not AS good as the W22s.

Regards,

Alan

You can still get Allen's Apple Juice Alan. (now say that five times really fast)

If Alan could drink Allen's apple juice how much allen's would Alan drink?

Hmmmm.....if Alan could drink a gallon of Allens, how many gallons of Allens could Alan drink ?

I didn't see it mentioned yet but you could use the same speaker for your center channel as you do your left and right...assuming the stud is not in the way.

Also are you against just getting M22's and wall mounting them? Alan has mentioned before you would get a nice increase in bass this was as well....

After hanging out here with you guys, I'm bettin' Alan could and would drink a lot!

I wouldn't blame him

fredk and Adrian,

Ha, ha. How many? A 48-fluid oz. can (by now, those are all in millilitres or some equally annoying metric measurement).
Oh, to extend the apple-juice story, I had a college friend (John Mitchell) whose family had another brand, called Mitchell's apple juice. I don't know whether it still exists. It was based in the Thornbury area.

Cheers,

Alan

I remember seeing Mitchell's on the shelf at my local grocery store. We used to have a constant supply of Allens in the house when the kids were young. It was the least expensive applejuice around.

Um, what was this thread about?

I am personally a great fan of Allen's AJ - it is a staple in our house with 3 young kids.
Fredk, I believe this thread was all about the apple juice with a smattering of on-wall speakers thrown in on the side

On that note, last night armed with a glass of wine, a level, a measuring tape, a utility knife and an old cardboard box I did some highly scientifical figuring out in my construction zone of an HT. The good news is that I am of the opinion I can accommodate the W-series without hacking into studs. I have to make a slight correction of centering everything a few more inches to the left. This will slightly increase the asymmetry of my front to back wall centers, but I think that's a small price to pay for what I believe will be significantly better sounding speakers. Besides, a modern AVR should be able to compensate for the worst of the asymmetry I would hope. Of course I am going to repeat my measuring without the wine before placing any orders!

Thank you all for helping me out. I will update when there's anything further to report.

Sounds like we will be in need of some pics! And you're right, the latest avr's should be able to accomodate, to a certain extent, the boundary issues.

Well, the deed is done. After triple checking all measurements tonight I called Axiom at 8pm on a Saturday night. I was amazed to get someone live (JC) without being put on hold or having to leave a message - that's a great 1st impression! I ordered the W22's with a W150, QS8's and an EP500. It may be overkill but at least I know I won't be regretting getting too small a sonic setup. I will post pics as I go. Expect an update after the 4 agonizingly long weeks of waiting for the factory outlet. Cheers and thanks again.

That's going to be a killer system, congrats.

Congratulations cb!!

Welcome to the family!! Can't wait, more pics to look at!!!!

Congrats on the decision. Don't worry the 4 weeks will only feel like 4 months

Wow, are those ever stunning looking speakers Onn. I am suddenly feeling inadequate with my EP500 and I don't even have it yet! :-) What is and where do you get an EP800 from? I have not seen this listed on the website. All I can say is WOW!!!!

Axiom owner club members got first shot at the EP-800 before they go on sale to the general public
The EP -500 is still a great sub nothing inadequate there. It's easier to move also!

Congrats cb. Feel free to come here to post frequently to burn off some of that 'waiting angst'.

Good for you for going with the ep500. I kinda sorta wish i had done the same.

Congrats, thats a fine system.