Hi, all.
I’ve been hanging around here for quite some time, reading all the posts, trying to figure out what I want, making a decision and then changing my mind again. Maybe it will help to try and tell you what I’m looking for, then you can tell me if my choices are the correct ones. So, here goes…

A few years ago, my wife and I were at an auto show when we heard a jazz band playing. Well, we decided to go and find them and watch them play. What we found was a car stereo playing. We had never heard sound so real and lifelike from any stereo before. That is the sound I want. Although I know I probably can’t afford that sound, I want to get as close as I can within my budget and space limitations.

Budget will be about $1200. The room is small, about 12 x 12 feet with an eight foot ceiling. This is our living room, so the speakers will be used for tv as well as music and movies. Here are the choices I’ve made for speakers…

M 22’s
QS 8’s
VP100

They will be driven by a Denon 3808, so I don’t think that should be a factor.

Anyway, to make a short story long, any assistance in my decision making process from the people who know will be appreciated. Anything else you need to know, just ask.

You've already selected a great system except for a sub. Do you plan on using a sub?

I'm not the knowledgeable one here but from what understand I'm certain your choices will sound sweet!

Enjoy.

Welcome to the forum Papa D,

I agree with wid, the system you picked would be fantastic. If you are looking at even a more budget alternative to what you suggested I would also suggest the M3v2, VP100v2 and the QS4v2. I think either system would be a good fit and would sound great in your room. What are you using for a subwoofer?

Good luck!

Yes, I do have a sub that I've had for many years. It's an old Radio Shack Optimus sub. Don't laugh, it actually can play musical notes (not one of those one note boomers). Any way, It will have to do for a while. I'm only allowed one up grade a year.

How many downgrades are you entitled to?

I suppose I can have all the downgrades I want, as long as I get money for them.

Is that how it works? Upgrades cost money and downgrades make money?

You would not need to spend a lot of money on a new subwoofer especially for that size of room. An entry level (8 or 10 inch) sub from Axiom, HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs etc would do the trick.

If you are happy with your current sub by all means keep it. I just wanted to point out that there are some budget alternatives.

I would suggest looking in the Factory Outlet Store and save 10% of your order. I would then change the surrounds to QS4s. With this you could also be able to get a new sub, something like the Hsu STF 1 or the eD A2 250

This sub is 100 watts, 10 inch, and it will rattle the windows pretty good, so I guess I'll keep it at least until I see how well it plays with whatever speakers I end up with.

Since this is for movies, I would consider the EP350 to be the minimum sub that should be consideredfrom Axiom. I hate to say it, but I was underwhelmed by the EP175 in Axioms 12x20 demo room. Even at full volume it gave no real rumble for scenes that had a ton of LFE (LOTR Bridge of Kazad Dhum). As far as other brands, you could probably get away with something like the PB10 from SVS (lots of value for the money).

The M22 is a great speaker as are the QS4/8. In side by side comparison I found the M22 + sub to be very similar to the M60.

Hey Papa D, nice to have another Iowa native around.

Keep in mind if you order 5 items from Axiom, you get 5%. Also, if you order from the factory outlet, which most of us do, you get 10% off, plus the 5% if you get 5 items. Might be something to consider, that way you might be able to get a matching sub.

I will tell you I like jazz also, one of my favorites is Diana Krall, my jaw hits the floor it sounds soooooo good, especially the stand up bass with a sub that can play low.

Wid,
How much of a difference in sound between QS 4 & QS 8, do you know. I ask because the 8's always seem to be way more popular than the 4's.

Yes, I had already decided to buy from the factory outlet. Seems to be the smart choice.

I think the M22s are exactly what you're looking for. The M3s are also excellent little speakers.

The main advantage of the QS8's is power handling. In a small room such as 12*12, using the QS4 in a surround application I would not think there would be any significant difference over the QS8. In a big room I think the differences would become noticeable.

BTW I use the QS4's in my system, never have listened to the QS8.

On a limited budget I would opt for QS4s and get a different sub. This would be imo a much better match for your size room. From what I have read the QS8s are the better speaker but for your room size and budget I would opt for the 4s.

Not to say your radio shack sub doesn't please your ears but it is not in the same league as the ones I linked to.

The QS4's were my original choice, but everyone raves about the 8's so much, I changed my mind. See, that's what I was talking about. Every time I decide, I end up changing my mind.

I'll be honest. I actually have never really listened to another sub but this one. I don't know anybody that has a system with real speakers. I'll certainly keep your suggestions in mind.

Thank you everyone for your help. I hear the wife calling. When Momma calls, I come a runnin'

Papa D,

I would also suggest calling or emailing Axioms customer support and hear what they have to say as well. That might help you make up your mind if you are struggling on any type of decision with your purchase. The more input the better!

Good Luck!

Papa,

You should see if there is anyone in your area that will let you demo their system.

There is a guy that lives over near the Bluffs, can't remember his name, but I think he purchased some Axioms about a year ago. I'm about 2hrs East of you..

Steve, welcome. I'd agree that the QS4s should be fine in your size room and of course will save some money that possibly could be applied toward a new sub in the future.

Hey D, welcome... (yeah, I've from Iowa too, but just a little further away than SirQuack)...

Anyway, my first home theater (going way back) had 2 subs in it that were, ahem, a "lesser brand/model". Actually they were basically just some cheap subs that seemed to "do the trick" for me and I was happy with them. Of course, I had a bunch of mediocre speakers to match. When I got my Axioms I didn't want the sound to be spoiled by a poor sub, even if my subs could shake the neighborhood, so I upgraded that as well.

Now I am in approximately a 10x15 room (with odd dimensions) with M60 fronts, VP150 center, QS8 surrounds and an SVS 20-39 PCi sub (12" - 350 watt that they recently discontinued). If the Axiom offerings at the time would have been a little "stronger" I would have gone that route, but that is another story...

I could easily get away with M22 fronts for the room size and still have great sound. The M60 fronts were bought when I was in a much larger non-dedicated room, so I needed more speaker than a pair of bookshelves.

As for the sub, holy crap Batman... Night and day difference. Sure I went from two 10-inch 150 watt subs to a single 12 inch 350 watt sub, so there was a little more power at my disposal, but wow. The quality of the sound was the best part. Yeah, I can still shake the neighbors' houses, but there is so much more to LFE than just rumble, and a quality sub is really important.

Now, I fully understand budgets (although I usually blow them on things like this) and making sure that the wife is on board with everything, but I just wonder how much you will be missing by having, no offense, a crappy sub in the mix. I only say that because I was there myself. You could end up not only missing out on all of the LFE benefits, but also end up "muddying" your overall experience. So if you really can't put a new sub into the mix now, be absolutely positive to put one into your plans for the future and hold to it. Don't just settle for a sub that seems "good enough" when you aren't really hearing a quality sounding sub.

It is an interesting question: what's a mother to do? A good sub is hugely important but I suspect the light will shine once you implement the speakers you have chosen in your room, and it will become clear what the next best step should be (absolutely save up for a decent sub). If you have the cash, buy everything all at once, and if you only have credit please stimulate our economy, please please, we're drowning, aaaaah!

You guys are going to keep pestering me until I'm forced to buy a sub too.

I don't know. I think I'll have to wait and see how things go first. It's for sure on my list for the future though.

Credit just gets me into more trouble. I don't need more trouble.

Understandable Papa D . I hope you take the plunge on the Axioms however . When you get them setup in your home you then can decide if upgrading the sub is needed .

Cheers!

I have both the QS4's and QS8's, the only difference I've noticed is that the Qs8's can put out more volume. As mentioned, for your room size the QS4's should be fine.

I'm pretty sure I'll give Axiom speakers a shot. As I said before, I've been researching for quite some time and they seem to be what I'm looking for. Of course I won't really know that for sure until I get to hear them in action.

One thing I'm curious about, I keep seeing references to the "Axiom Sound". Can anyone define what exactly that is. Or is it something that can't be put into words but has to be heard?

Neutral, clean.

Some people prefer a warmer sound (raise midrange). Some people prefer a slightly rolled off high end (laid back).

I like the 'Axiom sound' because it reminds me of live music; like a front row seat, or at least first 10 rows.

That is exactly what I'm wanting. As I stated in my first post, that is what drew me to look for the jazz band at the auto show that turned out to be a stereo. Although I don't want the highs to be to the point of being piercing. (Does that make sense? ).

Some say having a good sub is the most important ingredient, how would I know, I'm a guitarist.

Go with your intuition, you're bound to wind up in the best place, and enjoy!!!

You need really great source material for any speaker to give you that "wow factor". Axioms deliver the "wow" exceptionally well.

Back to the sub issue, I ran my M22 system with a very old Costco special D-Box (they make butt shakers now) sub that filled in the low end good enough to keep me happy till I could afford a much better sub. 4Yrs later and many sub auditions later I finally bought the best one I could afford. So I agree with you Papa, you can most certainly wait if your current sub will at least be contributing to the new systems overall sound, but once you start looking at the newer higher quality subs, you won't want to go back. Now buying the QS4s would allow you to start saving up for that newer, better sub and not have to wait 4 yrs for it like I did.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I have some old music that isn't recorded well and it sounds horrible on my old stuff. I can imagine what it would sound like on speakers that are very accurate.

I shouldn't have to wait 4 years. As I said before, I'm allowed to make one upgrade to the system every year. So, I should be able to get a new sub next year.

From my perception you are already making 3 upgrades (mains, centre and surrounds) . You can make a very rational argument to your wife on upgrading based on budget rather than on the number of items you are upgrading.

Cheers!

Yeah, that could work, except my budget is $1200 firm. There is no fudging on that. So, even going with the QS4's and the outlet store, that only leaves me with about $200. (I already have a $200 dollar sub)

I can wait a year easy. Two years ago I bought my TV, last year I got the Denon. This year will be the speakers. But, I have to stay at or below $1200.

If your listening preferences are directed towards jazz I would also consider the M3's which could add more of your budget towards a subwoofer. You might want to call or email axiom and ask their opinon on what bookshelf speaker would be better suited towards that genre of music.

Good Luck!

Unless the Mrs. is a CPA, that'll likely be the wrong way to go. Women, by and large, don't make purchasing decisions based on analytical facts and figures - they base it on emotion 9 times outta 10.

"Do you remember how surprised we were when we heard that car? How shocked you were that it wasn't a live band. How good is it going to feel knowing that we'll have a great system like that? You'll be the envy of your friends every time they come over."

Jeez, give the guy a break. So he doesn't have a sub right away! Some people simply have to take time to build their systems. Nothing wrong with that.

Oh! I know what this is. These guys are working on commission

Seriously, that is all I have to work with for now. We've done a lot of work on the house these past few months and it has eaten up a lot of my spending money.

But I promise to buy a good sub sometime in the next 12 months.

Heh... watch the commission joke. Things got a tad heated about that recently. Besides, if anyone was getting commission around here, I'd be one of 'em!

OOPS! Didn't know that was a sore subject.

No, no, someone actually accused us of that, not in a joking way. Not really a sore subject.

You realize we are asking you to spend less and move your budget to a subwoofer from another manufacturer. Ok ok.. get the M80's EP800 and QS8's .

Cheers!

OK. I'll do it.
UHH... Could I borrow some money?

If my math is correct, now that's a big if, going all factory outlet (10% off) and buying 5 pieces (5% off) that would leave $316 for a sub. If you could squeak out another 9 bucks you could finish the system off all at once with the eD A2-250 .

That would make for one nice system.

I'm only coming up with $212 left over.
Let's see if I got that right.
Factory Outlet...
2) M22 = $424
2) QS4 = $386
1) VP100 = $230

=$1040 - (5%) = $988
$1200 - $988 = $212

That's what I come up with. That's right isn't it?

You're right, I screwed up.

Nice try Wid.

Know what you mean. I figured it out 4 times and came up with a different number 3 times.

Hey! If I use your math I have more money.
Want to be my accountant?

I was giving ya another 10% off

THANKS!

I know when I want something bad enough it's like I subconsciously screw up the math on purpose just to give myself some hope--like I can actually get it, if only for a second.

I wonder if these comments are in regards to the thread I created:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247521&fpart=1

If so, I certainly did not accuse anyone and I don't think the thread became "heated" at all. The subsequent replies would likely be useful to Papa D considering I was inquiring about the same speakers in a similar sized room...

I've since ordered the M22s, VP100, and QS8s from the factory outlet. Unfortunately, I'll have to wait a few more weeks before I can comment on them!

Oh. Obviously I'm misremembering, because that's what I meant. I guess I got a little hot under the collar, but I didn't post it...