Time to morph into a new thread, about being unable to connect the 3808 to the internet. I actually like the way the 3808 manual looks graphically, everything seems laid out in orderly fashion, until you read for content, in which all of the crucial technical details appear largely to be absent (tech support was similarly useless, they suggested I reset the microprocessor and return to default factory settings, which seems dubious as a solution after having run the unit for one day, hey whatever it takes but at this point I don't think so). Anyway lots of folks have stated the manual made them crazy, so far it's just made me laugh, there's nothing to scratch your head over and get upset about; the downside is that there's not much information to speak of at all, once it comes to depth. All you're left with is a zen finger pointing at the moon, but not necessarily of the intelligent sort. Well I digress, first impressions.

Tried entering all of the info from the router manually, including primary and secondary DNS, etc. to no avail; incidentally internet threads suggest that the router does not support UPnP so it doesn't seem like that's the issue, although from what I've read turning off UPnP is the holy grail of compatibility between 3808 and router.

I found this humorous entry in the manual: "The AVR-3808-CI is not compatible with PPPoE. A PPPoE-compatible router is required if you have a contract for a line of the type with which the PPPoE is set." Say what? My router does connect via PPPoE (DSL phone line), so I suppose I'm covered, because my router is PPPoE compatible?

Anyway whatever it takes, so far ATT and Denon have not been able to scratch the surface of my trouble connecting to the internet, hopefully I don't have to switch ISPs, the choices are ugly out here in the distant suburbs.

You have one unit hooked up to your DSL line, right? And that unit is what you're terming the router, and it has multiple ethernet ports on it?

If so, you're covered. If you have to log into something every time you get on the internet on your computer, then you're not.

Correct, but the 3808 enigmatically states "Network problem" whenever I attempt to connect, even though router settings show the 3808 as visible to the network as well as "connected."

Hmm. I simply don't know enough about the 3808 to tell you what's going on, but I assume there's somewhere to set the network settings? Could it be a DNS problem, perhaps?

I don't own a 3808, so I can't offer any specific advice. But I can ask some general network troubleshooting questions that might help...

Is this a combination DSL Modem/Router from AT&T or do you have a separate DSL modem and router? What are the brands and model numbers of the gear you have?

You've first got to make sure that the 3808 can 'see' your router.

Look at the status lights on your router. Specifically, the port that the 3808 is plugged into. Make sure the port's status lights are lit up. If not, then your 3808 isn't even physically connected to the router. Check the cables and connections.

If that port is lit up...

Are you using DHCP on your home network? If so, the 3808 should be set appropriately. I have no idea how that's set up on the 3808, but there ought to be some sort of 'automatic' network setting. There should be a way for you to access the DHCP client list on your router. Verify that you can see the 3808 on that list. If you can't see it, then it's not connecting to your router properly.

If you're not using DHCP, and using static IP addresses, then you need to be very sure that you're assigning the 3808 a free IP address and that the subnet, DNS, and gateway settings are correct on the 3808.

Once you can prove that the 3808 is 'talking' to the router, then the next step is internet connectivity. Does the 3808 use a specific port? If you know, make sure the router's firewall is setup to allow it. UPnP is a big help here. If your router doesn't support that, I'd get a new router. See if your router has a DMZ feature. By putting your 3808's IP address here, it will bypass any protective firewalls. See if that works. If it does, then you've got a firewall problem. If not, then you've got some sort of general connectivity issue, and that's going to be really tricky to help with.

Check your router's firmware and make sure that it's completely up-to-date. That matters. I once bought a new notebook that just wouldn't connect to my router. After hours of troubleshooting, I discovered that it was a known issue between the router and the NIC card in the notebook. A firmware update for the router was available, and it completely solved the problem.

And lastly, it's possible that for whatever reason your router & 3808 just aren't going to get along. In that case you're going to need a new router. Do you have another router you could try?

Gee, I really couldn't say. I've never been able to become knowledgeable regarding network issues; they've either worked (XP Pro, pretty good/somewhat; Vista seems to work) or not (XP Home), nothing I've ever tweaked/done has made much difference.

When the Denon is set to DHCP it fails to pick up an IP address, so I went into the Denon manual network setup and entered the IP Address, Subnet Mask, Default Gateway, Primary DNS, and Secondary DNS values I found in the router's "Broadband Link - Details" window. What I'm calling the router is actually a combined ethernet/wireless router/dsl modem that att calls a wireless gateway (perhaps that's the modern term?), namely the 2Wire 2701-HG, and I disconnected the network except for a direct ethernet connection between the 3808-->2701-HG-->dsl line, I'm able to test via notebook computer that the internet connection remains intact.

Although in the past I have wasted countless hours on network issues with zero progress I remain bound and determined to make this work this time because I want the feature upgrade especially the internet music connection.

Is the router's DHCP function enabled? Is that notebook set to acquire its IP/DNS/etc info automatically? If yes, and the Denon isn't able to get an IP address when it's set to it DHCP mode, then that's not a good sign. You may have some sort of compatibility issue.

I hate those combo DSL/router things. I am going to guess that's causing the problem. See if AT&T has any firmware updates for it.

You may have to go buy a 'real' router manufactured by a more mainstream company, like a D-Link or Linksys. Then you'd use the combo doodad as a Modem only, and use the new router to actually handle the routing/AP duties.

Yes it's an ATT combo 2Wire 2701HG-B dsl modem/router.


Ethernet light is green, currently the 3808 is the only ethernet connectiom, it's also lit at point of entry in back, when I disconnect ethernet cable both lights go out.


Yes I am using DHCP, and the 3808 shows up on the router list as "connected" with a unique IP address assigned from the range of options (exactly one higher than the previously assigned address).


I've tried this as a workaround but I'm not sure all of the settings are correct when I attempt this, e.g., if I use the assigned IP address are the subnet, DNS, and gateway settings identical to those on the router itself, or should I use the static address assigned to the router along with above (have tried both solutions without success)?


Not sure what this means, where is this port located, on the 3808 or router?


For the 3808 to function, UPnP has to be disabled (thanks Denon, leave it to everyone else to work things out) on the modem/router, according to Axiom threads, Google threads, as well as Denon tech telephone support. ATT and Google threads state that the 2wire modem does not support UPnP, which begs the weird question if support is not present, can I turn UPnP off? I'm suspecting I need a new router dedicated to the 3808, not sure what is available that will be compatible with this particular ATT service.


ATT suggested I disable the router firewall for the Denon, they call this "Allow all applications (DMZPlus mode)."
Implementation of this setting had no effect. If I'm not mistaken, what this mode does is assign the static IP address associated with the modem/router (i.e., the router labels the Denon device as the assigned DHCP address yet the IP Address is identical to the router's broadband connection IP address) to the Denon unit rather than one of the floating (?) addresses in the DHCP range of addresses.


Already checked, the firmware for the router is completely up to date, no upgrade available.


Again I suspect this to be true, because I have yet to tweak my way out of a network meltdown such as this. My concerns/questions are: 1) ATT relies heavily on 2Wire modems because generally they work well and are compatible with a wide range of computers, 2) are there other DSL modems that would work with ATT, and 3) are there DSL modems that are confirmed to work with Denon.

At this point I don't need a router, just a dedicated dsl modem that is confirmed to work with att/denon 3808.

Thanks much Peter for your detailed comments/suggestions.

It sounds like you've done quite a bit of troubleshooting! Not much else I can offer... Sorry.

I wonder why the Denon requires UPnP to be disabled? That's weird.

If you were to buy a new router, you could probably keep using the ZWire as just a DSL modem. There ought to be some way to just use it as a modem, and let the new router act as, well, a router. That might solve the problem. That's what I'd probably try.

I believe that there are two types of DSL networks; Frame Relay and ATM. The modems are different. Unless you're on a very old DSL network, you should be on an ATM. I really can't say for sure. I know that a lot of electronics stores (Best Buy, Staples) sell DSL modems. You could always try a new one, returning it if it didn't work.

Something else you could try - do you have access to another network? A friends house, perhaps? A bit of work to haul the 3808 somewhere else, but testing it on another network would give you more info. If it worked on another network with a different internet connection, then you'd know it was something with your Zwire. If it didn't work at the friend's house, then perhaps your 3808 itself has a problem.

Have you unplugged the router, then plugged it back in after a minute or two?

I'm struggling with some network issues too (not with the 3808) and I'm surprised about how many things get solved with a router "reboot"...

Yes, yes, and yes, and no, it's not a good sign and I also suspect a compatability issue.


Me too, except when they work, before we had Charter with much higher bandwidth but with separate modem/router the handshake between components would break down several times a day and we would have to reboot both computers as well as modem and router to be back in business, and then the connection started going down for 6-7 hours at a time, the combo setup has been a dream in that once set up it has never gone down (the router never loses the modem just as an arm never loses its elbow) even though there has been considerable bandwidth sacrifice (1.5 Mbps vs. 4-5 Mbps, e.g., no HD video over broadband, not that we ever had such a thing but I suppose that's on the way); however, my guess also is it that somehow the combo dsl/router is the root cause of the problem of the 3808's inability to access the net.


More than willing to consider that, thanks for the hint, however, I cringe at the thought of the Windows computers having to find the router or the router having to find the modem; before with Cable I had a Motorola Surfboard SB2100 with Netgear router (if memory serves) both of which were highly rated (and worked better than Linksys in my experience as well as other consumers) and definitely fast but was unable to maintain the network connections consistently (i.e., had to reboot a few times a day, pretty unacceptable amounts of downtime)

I'll chime in on your last comment, although Peter is clearly the expert on this subject. In general, any DSL modem will work in most situations. All it does is bring the internet connection to the computer. I agree with Peter that a decent stand-alone router will make your life a lot easier, and may very well solve your connectivity problem. Routers are pretty inexpensive (try NewEgg or Tiger Direct), and they specialize in connecting your various devices to the modem. As a bonus, they offer an extra layer of firewall protection by making your network invisible to the internet. Even so, you should also have a software firewall on your individual computers.

Yes I've experienced that as well, router power down/up was one of the first things I tried a few times, as well as unplugging everything else that had been connected to the router and plugging the 3808 directly into the modem/router to see if that would help.

No change with functionality and denon settings/status as per router were identical with regard to connectivity (Denon status: connected, same IP address), whether over ethernet, powerline adapter, or other devices connected/disconnected to/from modem/router.

Interesting, do you think I could implement a standalone router to negotiate the handshake between the 3808 and the ATT modem/router, i.e., 3808-->standalone router-->ATT modem/router (come to think of it, I bet the Netgear router is still somewhere in a drawer in the garage, could be time for a test). Problem is that ATT is partial to their own gear and the 2Wire is just SO reliable with regard to Windows computer connectivity to the internet, I hate to think about going back to the individual components route (how ironic, eh? ) and would prefer to keep the 3808 on its own separate loop if feasible.

Well I've been messing around but so far placing the Netgear RP614 router in between the 3808 and 2701 does nothing useful, via DHCP the same IP address is assigned to the 614 and 3808, so that can't work.

Perhaps the more routers you have, the more potential interference you create between yourself (the 3808) and the 'net.

Can't buy me connection, everybody tells me so
Can't buy me connection, no no no NO!

Hey I guess that makes me pretty old, no?

It's so ridiculous, the sweet wife comes home, complains re: my deconstruction of the living room for purposes of troubleshooting, I unplug everything, put the components back in place in two minutes, and three seconds later the network is in perfect working order, zero issues much less troubleshooting between 2 desktops (1: Windows MCE 2005 [direct ethernet connect], 2: Vista Ultimate in-place upgrade from XP Home [connected via powerline adapter]), a notebook (Vista U, wireless connection) and aforementioned dsl modem/router.

Denon what is your problem? Oh, sorry I forgot, it's a "network problem" (as the rep stated, most of the time these things are caused by the router, meaning "we have no clue, you're on your own, don't look to us for any constructive advice").

I'm willing to spend money on interconnectivity after having received such a deal on the 3808 and what with the prospect of a free feature upgrade; however what to buy? What's a mother to do?

OK, let's start from the top. The computers, what are their IP addresses? If they're not in 172.16.x.x-172.31.x.x, 192.168.x.x, or 10.x.x.x, don't put them in; otherwise it's safe to post it.

If you look at the Denon network info, does it match the same pattern as the computers?

If so, go to a computer and ping the Denon's IP. If that works, it's on your network, it just can't find the internet, which probably points to either a gateway/routing problem or a DNS problem.

The IP addresses are 192.168.1.64, 192.168.1.65, 192.168.1.66, and 192.168.1.67.

The Denon is unable to obtain an IP address via DHCP even though the router shows the Denon as "connected" with IP address of 192.168.1.67.

Even if I enter the info manually on the Denon it is unsuccessful in connecting (although perhaps I am missing something).

Don't know how to ping, however the router shows the Denon as present and "connected" to the network suggesting it may in fact be a gateway/routing problem or DNS problem. How might I proceed in distinguishing between the two?

Well, if you go into the command line on one of the Windows boxes, you type ping 192.168.1.67. If it comes back with a response, the Denon's talking (sort of).

Manually entering an IP on the denon, you would use something like 192.168.1.10, subnet mask 255.255.255.0, gateway 192.168.1.1. If you type ipconfig /all in the command line on one of the desktops, you'll find the DNS entries which you should use on the Denon.

Ooo, how interesting, I will have to swap out a bit of hardware because I am short a powerline adapter (the xe 102s seem to fail after a while, I have 2 intact units and 2 duds so I will have to cannibalize the one from my ofc computer and transfer comm to my notebook) let me check this out.

well I'm stuck can't even find the run box in vista

Look in START > ALL PROGRAMS > ACCESSORIES > RUN (or use ) COMMAND PROMPT.

Beat me to it, you’re to quick.

OK found it (Windows key/R) but since I monkeyed around with Denon router the ATT modem/router no longer lists an ip address for denon, will have to correct that first

Tried this on the notebook but the entries blazed by too fast to read.

ip config /all also blazed by on the desktop, this command appears to display NOTHING you can view on a modern comp, unless perhaps there is an additional switch you can provide to prevent the screen from going blank in less than 1/4 second.

I am a patient person, but you know, after all these years I hate computers, they fail to cooperate at all

If you use the DOD shell instead of the run dialog box the info will stay on the screen and not disappear. If it scrolls past the top of the DOS window you can just enlarge the window. If you can’t make the window big enough or just want to control the scrolling one page at a time use IPCONFIG \ALL | MORE in the DOS window and it will pause after each page until you hit a key and will display the next page and so on until the info to display runs out.

use START > ALL PROGRAMS > ACCESSORIES > COMMAND PROMPT then type IPCONFIG \ALL

What Dean said.

Is this 3808 network problem common? I'm likely to buy one and want to be forewarned if I need a tech guy with me when I hook it up.

My 3808 was found and working immediately with a Linksys WRT54 series router... and my life has been nothing BUT bad networking issues here!

Good to hear; well not great for Sat, but good for me.

OK thanks guys, I tried the next round of tests, with these results: I can't ping any of the devices on the network, requests always time out unless you ping the router itself or the address of the device you are already on, not sure what this means as all of the devices access the net freely except the Denon. Does this have to do somehow with firewall(s)?

Ran "ipconfig /all" at the command prompt and copied the Subnet mask, default gateway, and DNS Servers values all of the other computers are using into the Denon along with the IP address assigned by the router to the Denon, which appears as an active device in the router's view of the home network.

The 3808 continues to insist, "Network problem."

Three followup questions: 1) Should I put the same values in the fields of the Primary DNS and Secondary DNS? The ipconfig info just lists "DNS Servers" and gives a single value, not Primary and Secondary. 2) Proxy on the Denon should be set to "Off," no? Doesn't a proxy apply when you have to sign into your internet account like aol rather than having a direct always on connection such as I have? 3) Is there any chance that putting some device (WAP that the 3808 could plug directly into, not sure if that makes a bit of sense, I'm reaching) between the Denon and the att modem/router would improve the situation, i.e., something the 3808 would prefer to shake hands with better since it continues to give the cold shoulder to the modem/router?

The Denon doesn't pick up an address even though it is in DHCP mode and the router has DHCP enabled, so as you say there seems to be a compatibility problem. It sounds like my idea of using the netgear router may have promise, would I have to somehow disable the routing capabilities of the combo modem in order to use the two in tandem?

If you can't ping the other devices from each other, you've definitely got a "network problem" as the Denon puts it.

As to the DNS, if you've only got one, just put it in the primary field. Proxy should definitely be set to off.

If you put a router after the att modem, you'd want to put all of your devices behind it so as to keep them on the same network. Part of the issue is that the att modem is already doing NAT (translating your outside ip address into multiple inside ip addresses) and because it's pretty generic to use 192.168.1.x, your existing router probably also uses that. It's a no-no to use the same network on both sides of the router, so that would undoubtedly break everything.

What type of problem would that suggest, or what possible route of correction? I now have two routers in series and I can ping either of the routers from the computers but no computer can ping any of the other computers.



Set things up this way, i.e., denon/computers-->netgear rp614v1 router-->att 2701hg-b gateway-->internet, and everything connects flawlessly with the exception of the Denon. Went onto the internet and upgraded the netgear router's firmware, ironically that now includes a UPnP button for me to leave unchecked.

The Netgear router can also see the Denon and lists this as an "attached device," however I have tried to set the Denon up as a DMZ computer which Peter suggested trying yet so far has not helped and for some reason after doing this and then reverting back to normal DHCP, it takes either router a while to notice the Denon again, so I'm in wait mode at the moment, not that I have a lot more tests I can think of. Actually when the Denon reappears I still have to try connecting with the correct values input for the new network, in which the default gateway value appears to be given by the netgear router (its LAN address) whereas the primary DNS value is given by the att cable/modem router (its LAN address), based on the "ipconfig" info given up by the computers, still I'm not holding my breath.

One thing: The MAC address listed on the back of the Denon is not the same as the MAC address that shows up in the router's device list, whereas the MAC addresses listed in each computer's "ipconfig /all" info is the same as the MAC addresses of the computers listed in the router device list . Not sure what this indicates, perhaps it provides a clue as to what is going wrong?

Finally there are a few threads on Google that suggest Netgear routers may not work/play well with the 3808, I could go out and buy a DLink but anticipate I will hold off until I have more info, e.g., some reason to believe that the router is the root, proximal, or distal cause of the problem.

Can you copy files between the computers? If so then this really sounds like a firewall(s) blocking the ping request. Which really isn’t an issue unless you just like pinging your computers or need to troubleshoot your connections.


It sounds like you have MAC address filtering enabled which is not a bad thing but will only allow the MAC addresses listed to connect to your router. Can you edit the Denon’s MAC address in the router to match what is actually on it.

Yes and no, the Windows Home Network is a bit flaky because one of the computers uses MCE 2005, the other two computers use Vista. I've been able to do what I need to, share printers, etc., but overall it's been a bit hobbled with regard to reliability of file sharing between the MCE and Vista computers.

Also, right now I am initially only looking to connect the Denon to the internet and have even tried disconnecting all of the computers except the Denon to the router just to fire up a basic connection.

On the Netgear router that does not appear to be allowed and my impression is it is not allowed on the att modem either, I am still looking into this.

Where does MAC address filtering occur, in the router?

Yes, the MAC address filtering would be at the router--one of them. I'd guess it would be at the ATT router, myself, since you've had the problem with both. Take the Linksys out, and see if the MAC address of the Denon becomes accurate on the ATT router.

This is certainly a weird one.

IFAIK MAC address filtering is only on the wireless side, may be wrong, (sorry I’ve lost track of how your Denon is connected) so if you have a hard connection then that might not be it. But if it is you should be able to just disable it in the router’s settings and see if that works.

There's a lot of reading to do here, but before I do that, has anyone mentioned checking the link speed settings of the Denon and the router to be sure they match?

Still planning on doing more testing when I have time, but if I do decide to go buy a new router, which may well be my next attempt at a shortcut, any generally reliable ones out there? What routers are people specifically using with the 3808 that have been relatively trouble-free?

Sat:
Check out this thread , this one and this one.

I ended up with a Linksys WRT54GS after seeing so many recommendations here.

I have been very pleased with my D-Link DIR-655. It has been the most reliable home-grade router I've ever worked with.

That WRT54GS is another very good one.

Thanks, I'll look into this, I think I'll call Denon as well to see if they recommend anything.

BTW MAC address filtering is present but not enabled on the ATT router/modem.

Have been unable to bring up the 3808 in the device list of either router for the past day, so am unable to perform further testing of any kind at this time with regard to the avr.

SatKartr, have you looked in the 'Official 3808' thread over on AVS?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=860539

101 pages worth of posts, but I'd bet that somewhere in there people have discussed compatible routers.

Lots of chaff on AVS, of course. But I have found that the 'Official' threads regarding some product usually do offer quite a bit of meaningful information.

Eureka! Peter you nailed it! I began to scroll the above mentioned thread, voluminous, mostly chaff at first and nothing related to routers and then my eye picked up a comment regarding make sure you plug into the ethernet port and not the denon link jack. So I rushed over to check and lo and behold not only had a missed the correct port after scanning the diagram and reaching behind the entertainment center, but I had plugged into the wrong box, I had plugged into the Sony 350, hence the incorrect MAC address! For some reason I had failed to reverse the image of the diagram properly in my mind so when I looked in the back of the rack I was looking for an ethernet port on the left rather than the right, so the Sony looked good.

Plugged the ethernet cord into the correct jack and seconds later I was listening to German internet radio (I guess that's one of the most popular for some reason) through the power line network directly into the att combo/router. What a bonehead mistake, , for days I've been tracing all of the connections and learning everything I never wanted to know about networks, but never suspected I would have made such an elementary flub at the very beginning of the chain. That's one of the problems with getting old, you make mistakes you can't even begin to imagine you would be capable of so it's not immediately obvious where you need to doublecheck. Note to self: when trouble shooting, begin with a triple check of connectivity.

Thanks everyone for all of your help and patience, I learned a lot and perhaps some of the knowledge will be useful some other rainy day.

aw crap, I didn't even think of that... Sorry, dude!

If you're going to plug into the D-Link port you'll want this cable: http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3429.asp

Doh! Glad you figured it out. Hopefully this is one you can laugh about in a week or two.

Jason

Excellent!

Glad you found the source of your problem and were easily able to correct it. It's the little things that can drive you crazy.

It happens more often than you might think, even to us 'professional' IT people.

That's just silly. I know that I'M too smart to do such a thing!

I'm LMAO right now, buddy! I updated the firmware and got the feature upgrade at no charge, logged into my Rhapsody account, and am listening to great sounding what I assume are Real format (can't remember what it's called) tracks, interestingly it sounds much better than when we tried downloading Rhapsody tracks to a player and then inputting them into the avr, not sure why, maybe a different format (wma?), last I looked they appeared to be ripped at the same level of resolution (256k) as the online tracks, maybe not from the improvement to sound.

Of course I knew that dvrs have had an unused ethernet port for some time, but I'm not used to thinking of a disc player as having an ethernet port even though I've been reading about BD Live and realize there's already a firmware update for the Sony 350 that I have yet to apply. First experience with networking the entertainment center, I'm hooked already (now that I'm out of the woods)! I may even have to start writing reports on the notebook rather than my home office computer, music sounds so much better than on my computer speakers, with the same convenience that comes with streaming.

Well all I need to do is recalibrate so the Dynamic EQ can come into play, better get some work done first, this has been quite a distraction.

Yes Peter, I think it was your thorough approach that eventually led me to it, in your initial post you led me through every wire connection and router light in the chain to make sure all of the connections and the integrity of the network were intact, the only one you missed was the very first, of course you assumed I had connected the right box to the network! Let that be an object lesson of some sort.

Thanks Mark, now I feel even more foolish, whereas it took you 45 minutes to identify the problem, it took me only 2 1/2 days to it figure out.