So until today my plans were to pair an Epic 80 Home Theater (5.1) with a Denon 5308 AVR. I found a Denon dealer in Vancouver to go talk about price and of course he questions why I'm not going with Rotel (separates) instead of the Denon. I figure his mark-up is more on the Rotel, but that just might be Cynical.

Unfortunately I didn't have time to stay to listen to both side by side, but I'm going to head back later this week.

My room will be about 3800 square feet. The prices of the units are in the same ballpark.

Anyone with a strong opinion on Rotel?

Peter, the Rotels are of course excellent as to basic amplification. You haven't described the factors which are leading to the consideration of spending anywhere near that much, when the 3808 would satisfy the needs in the vast majority of setups(not that many "square feet", however) at a far lower price. Casually "listening" to amplifiers at a dealer doesn't provide definitive information.

John-

Thanks very much, and I take your point well. I completely agree that it is unnecessary to spend so much on amplification, and that I could probably spend <$1000 and get 95% of the way there.

However, if we take the value debate away for a sec, and assume I have $6000 bucks to blow on an amp just for the fun of it, I'm wondering if anyone has a strong opinion on Denon vs. Rotel.

For the denon, I like the number of HDMI Inputs, the number of zones, the power, the on screen menus, the web server etc. The Rotel has less inputs and not as many flashing lights, but does it sound better enough to justify living without the toys?

Cheers

Pardon me, 3800 CUBIC feet is the room size. Square feet would be roughtly 380.

Peter, unless you'd exceed the very substantial power capabilities of the 5308(or 3808 for that matter)there's no reason for the Rotel to provide audibly cleaner amplification. Again, the bottom line is amplifying 20Hz-20KHz with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion. There're no mysterious factors beyond those.

Gotcha. Makes sense to me.

Cheers
peter

I personally would go with the denon.. but that is b/c I am a happy 3808 owner. Never owned a rotel but I am sure they are good as well.

Also, keep in mind that 6ave.com sells the 3808 for $1100 with tax and shipping (you have to call to get the price). If your set on the 5308 You might call them and ask for the price. I am not sure if they even sell the 5308 but I would guess they do.

I didn't realize Rotel had a Pre out that would handle HDMI.

I have a soft spot for Rotel. I'll have to read up on this one....

The 5308 is a beast and comes with the Realta VP. Pretty tough to beat this AVR.

Dave, you don't have to ask for that price anymore. They are selling them for under $1100 now on the website, same as AVSforum pricing.

My only cautionary tale about Rotel is the features list. A good friend went with a Rotel AVR over the Denon 4308 and, in hindsight, it was the wrong choice. That Rotel did not pass all the HDMI material the Denon did, and his subsequent Blu Ray purchased required lots of additional wire runs, etc. All this is to say, compare the core features and upgrade-ability closely. You will never hear a problem with Rotel's sound, etc., but they can't/don't always keep up with Denon, et al., on some key features.

The paradox of high end preamps. If I ever mysteriously encounter a lot of money that I can spend on audio, I'd probably do the receiver/amp thing, rather than the preamp/amp thing.

Thanks very much guys for your input - I'm going to go listen to the Rotel, but I suspect that I'll probably attempt to buy the Denon.

I say "Attempt" because I've discovered that I have a hard time buying things in Vancouver - the retail culture out here is bizarre.

peter

Go with the Rotel the sound is great, and it will do all of the new hdmi formats. I just checked one out over the weekend.

I purchased my Denon AVR from Ecost.com instead of a local Vancouver area retailer. In the end I saved about $600.00

PSpee, I will say this I have done the receiver and amp thing. It is not the same as a pre/pro, the bass management on the per/pro is way better, the distortion at loud levels or at modrate levels is not there it is a cleaner sound. You could look at getting Rotel 1095 or 1075 to go with the 1570. If you have the means to go with the pre/pro amp combo over the receiver, the sound will be better.

The RSP-1570 sure is a sweet looking component, if I could get my Axiom brethern to collectively donate a couple of grand I'd kick in the remainder and order one. Anybody up for helping a forum member in need?

VERY SEXY!

ARGH! And I thought I had my mind made up.

Thanks for the input - will have a very careful listen to them both....

The recievers out today are just as good when used as a pre, imo.

How many separate pre amps have you listened to Randy?

Peter, the very low noise and distortion numbers which are typically reported in lab tests of modern receivers include the effect of their pre-amplifier sections. These numbers are well below audibility and the pre-amplifier is therefore without audible flaws.

There is no comparison a per/pro to a receiver. A processor is just that, it gives you so much more dynamic range and the head room for the amps. Watching a movie or listening to music is a pleasure. If you love movies or music separates are the way to go. I have a 5.1 Axiom system in my bedroom on a Integra 5.6 it sounds good but it don't compare to my Rotel separates in my theater room.

Oh no, here come the worms again!
I'll get the ball rolling with this...

Maybe your bed ROOM just doesn't sound as good as your theatre ROOM.



I don't understand. I could subscribe to the theory that isolating the power supply and amplification from the processor could result in less distortion or a higher s/n ratio, but I don't get how a processor necessarily provides greater dynamic range or head room.

Ok my mom has Anthem seperates on paradigm sigs, I can take her processor AVM 50 to my rotel amps and it sounds different than the rotel processor. The processor makes the equipment sound different not the amps there just for power. And yes I call it dynamic range in a action flick when the sound sweeps through and you are ducking from flying objects. That is the processor that makes it happen. You can not get the same from a receiver that is all I'm saying. I own both and I would always say if you can swing it go with seperates. The new processors you can always update and I think will last longer then a receiver that tends to run hot even in the open.

Whoa.

Yo momma so cool, she got Anthem separates.

As the person who started this thread, I just gotta say THANKS.

Not only interesting, but very entertaining.

BTW, my mom has a 1992 Acura Integra with a great stock stereo cassette system. It still sounds great.

Charles, when someone gets a "ball rolling" my tendency is to want to pick it up and demolish it so that it can never roll again. Be that as it may, the reference to the Stereo Review amplifier blind listening tests in Mr. Russell's linked article justifies again(after about ten times previously here)linking it here . The results are still unchallenged(i.e., unchallenged by solid evidence to the contrary, not simply by stubborn disagreement)and include the fact that the $12,000 pair of tube amplifiers which were correctly designed so as not to exhibit a flawed "tube sound" were able to match the performance of the $220 Pioneer receiver and were audibly indistinguishable. Also worth noting are the somewhat flowery descriptions of the "sound" of the amplifiers in open listening before the tests(and even of the "believer" in the Futterman/Hafler test after the tests, who was about to learn that his score was 7/16)contrasted to the actual random results.

This is the only way that the incessant mantra "Just trust your ears" can actually be put into effect, but there's about as much enthusiasm for this among most "believers" as a vampire has for sunlight.

John, one of your best posts . Worthy of being made into bronze and hung in my future home theatre room .....although how I would get the link to work I can't imagine.

Hey, I was just opening the door for you and saving you one hyperlink. I'm learning. At some point I'm going to get a decent amp in my room and do some testing. Until then, I rest comfortably knowing there should be little improvement, if any.

You just keep believing that

Sorry PSpee and guys, I know the word sound to make a point was a bad choice of words. So I will try again, The best way to put it is base management, detail, and imaging. I know that the x-over in a speaker doesn't care if it is a watt from rotel or denon. It only cares if it is getting enough power, to little or to much power it cares. Yes the x-over gives the speaker its sound. The only reason I made the analogy of the Anthem and the Rotel with the same amps and the same speakers, was to point out the difference in the base management, detail, and imaging. With the Anthem I had to turn down the sub volume on the sub, it was set different with the Rotel. Watching movies the way each unit imaged was different. The other thing I could listen to the speakers louder with the Anthem than the Rotel. I guess you could chalk that up to the signal path of the Anthem. So PSpee if you want to future proof your system seperates are not a bad way to go, plus you would not have to worry about the M80's dropping down to what ever ohm load. Zimm you could add an amp to your 3808 and your right your speakers would not sound a bit different, base management, detail, and imaging would all be the same, because it is the same control unit. That amp would get you closer to getting some seperates. The one thing that you would have to change is to put that amp on it's own electrical circuit. Like I said sorry that I opened up them worms. Happy hunting PSpee.

I mean no disrespect but the word is bass not base.

Right on, I should of used spell check.

Its nice to see someone lets the worms out for a walk crawl now and then. Its cramped in them thar cans.

So the basis of your point is...?

Gieseman ... no need to worry, not all of us are anti-separates.

Just anti 'leave the nice man alone and let him post.'

Hell, post away, it's nice to see others opinions. Even more so when I agree with them

Who are you talking about Fred ... the dude that can't spell worth a darn?



We kid because we care.

Spell check wouldn't have caught it anyway, he spelled base correct

Spelling is for sissies.

Now that's funny

Be careful or they'll spell your doom.

I beg to differ, I added the A1400-8 to my 3808 and my speakers sounded much better, better bass, imaging, just better everything. I question whether or not a seperate pre/pro would make as much a difference as just adding the amp did to my system. My $1000USD 3808 is good bang for the buck when paired with better amps, IMO, as seperate Pre/Pros appear to cost much more than this, even the Outlaw 997 is expected to cost a few hundred more than this.

Thats cool jakewash, I'm glad to hear that it was an improvement for you. I just know when I purchased my rotel-1075 amp and put it on my Integra I was disapointed. I thought there would be a huge improvement, sounded the same to me. Thats good to know that you had success with the Denon.

Now that's just cruel .


That's a lie. Not listening...nana nanoona noooonaao. My system is as good as it can be. My system is as good as it can be...probably. My system is as good as...well, as good as it is. Need new amp. Want new amp. Get new amp. Damn chanting.

I kept saying the same ting Zimm but I couldn't deny it any longer

How much is that 1400-2 again?

Still too much for me.

I feel your pain, Zimm.

You get the amp then you start to wonder. Per/pro per/pro I need AA audioholics anonymous. Any one know of any close meetings.

I think the A1400-2 member - reduced intro pricing was $2000. Was.

Thanks again guys - advice and entertainment all appreciated.

After reading this thread and looking at AVSForum and Audioholics, I think I'll go for the Denon. Crutchfield Canada carries them which makes it even easier to buy - no having to deal with Audiophile sales guy implying that my manhood is questionable because I don't buy a Rotel with the matching B&W speakers.

Cheers
peter