Hi everyone!

I came across Axiom and this forum on a search for my first home theatre / music system, and I must say, I'm quite impressed. I've read through many posts to get myself acquainted with Axiom and the best it has to offer, and decided that it was time to sign up for this forum and ask the experts myself. Everyone on here seems very willing to help out from the reading I've done thus far!

My Background:

I will be moving into a new home in the spring and will be looking to put together a nice, future-proof music / ht system for years to come. The room size is 16.5' x 13.6' Link: http://www.mattamyhomes.com/uploadedFile...h_honeygate.pdf

I live in Canada and bought the Pioneer 9040 / Elite 21 on boxing day for a good price at Future Shop ($599), so my receiver is purchased. I also made the mistake of getting rear surrounds built into my ceiling (to avoid running wires), so won't be needing the QS series surrounds. (I know, not a match, oops)!

The system will be used for 50% music (hip-hop, pop, country and everything else in between!), and the remainder Xbox, TV, and hometheatre. I will not be able to use a subwoofer here, as were in a townhome and space is limited as it is. I may add one in the future however when we move on from this place.

Questions:

1) Since I will be without a woofer, I trust that the M60's or M80's are the way to go up front? From my reading it seems that the M22's require a sub to get the full effect, and M3's will not have the oomph I am looking for in 2 channel music. Any comments? Would my receiver even handle the 4ohm loads of the M80's?

2) For the centre channel, Is the VP-150 worth the extra dough? I would prefer to go with the smaller VP-100 if the difference is minimal due to size. I would guess that the VP-150 would be a better match for the larger M60's and M80's however?

3) Most of the music I will listen to will be from my Ipod and connector cable I got with the Pioneer receiver, which concerns me from what I've read. My downloaded music is anywhere from 128 to 320 quality-wise, and I'm wondering if Axioms would butcher these songs due to the detail and clarity being audiophile-type speakers? (Should I be looking at more mainstream equipment altogether)? I'll also be running radio through this system!

4) Is there anything else I should consider before jumping on the Axiom train? I've heard some say it is too "bright" for music due to the tweeters. Anyhow, I'm leaning towards the M60's and VP-100 at the moment. Seems like a steal when shopping comparable Paradigms!

Any input would be much appreciated, thanks for taking the time to help me out!

Welcome, Chris....

1) The M80 and M60 both have very good bass, with the M80 having more noticeable support than the M60s. Any of the bookshelf speakers really would need more support(ie subwfr) for the type of music you mentioned, as well as for movies although any speaker(including full range towers) would still benefit from the LFE found in most movies. Not sure about the 4 ohm load on that particular receiver, this may make the M60 the better choice.

2) VP100 is fine

3) I'm sure you already have read that Axiom speakers are revealing, if you play poorly recorded material...you'll hear it. On the other hand, decently recorded material will put a smile on your face from ear to ear...

4) Most people who choose Axiom's do so because of their accuracy at reproducing music/movies without colouring the sound. It's more of a personal preference thing, but I would not classify Axiom speakers as "bright"....perhaps "revealing", but again, some people may actually prefer a more recessed speaker with a less forward high end but will sacrifice some of the detail at higher fq's. I would agree with your assessment on the M60/VP100, I think this would work best for you and if you enjoyed the Paradigm sound then it's almost assured you'll like the Axiom sound IMO.

If you are able to, try to audition some Axioms either at the plant, if you are close enough, or checking the "hearing things" thread to see if someone can help you out.

Welcome to the forum

What you have planned should sound great. The M60s are a little more forgiving on ripped music than the M22/M80s and the VP100 is 99% all of the VP150 so go ahead make the purchase and have a listen, only you will know if they are right for you.

Now a sub is still possible as it should be calibrated to the same levels as your mains and it should not sound out of place. When calibrated it will not produce any more bass SPL than the M60s would you just have lower bass frequencies than the M60s can produce not louder. So M22 with stands frees up floor space for a sub

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum.

I feel your indecision as a couple of weeks ago, I was the one that couldn't decide which speaker to get so my first advice to you will be what most people told me: "If you can, go listen for yourself". That's what I did last week. If you are in the GTA, it not that bad, 2h30 drive thru the country side and you'll be able to listen to any speaker you want and have a factory tour. I went with a friend of mine and we both enjoyed the day.

As for between M60s and M80s, I have a mixed comment. Since you intend to do 50% movies and 50% video games + music (including hip hop and pop), I would think that the M80 would be best. The M60s have good an accurate bass, however it's not as deep and pronounce as the M80s which will help you for movies until you get a sub and for music like hip hop. You can read what I thought about both speakers here: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=284419&fpart=14
Now my concern is about feeding the M80s with mp3s, I am not sure that you will like the result. As Adrian said, poorly recorded material will show and the M60s in that case might be a better choice. For instance, with the M80s, I have CDs (original and purchased :)) that sound terrible, but on the other hand I have some that sound wonderful.
So in your particular case, I would strongly recommend that you listen to Axiom for yourself, take material that you would typically listen an watch and see if you like the result.

Cheers,

Bruno

and I forgot to say, on the other hand, I have some music that was downloaded at 320kbps that, after converting to wav, sounds pretty good, at least to me. Hope this helps.

I think the m60 and vp100 will be fine. The m80 or m22 would work great as well but if you are not adding a sub right away I would stick with the tower speakers for sure. As mentioned, the m60 might be a little better for compressed/ poorly recorded music. Also I don't think pioneer is one of the brands typically suggested by axiom for use with the m80's, although I am sure it would be OK, especially at "normal" listening levels.

Are you considering adding surrounds? If not maybe you should add surrounds before you purchase a center channel. A common upgrade path for folks building a HT system a little at a time is fronts->surrounds->center->sub (the sub doesn't have to wait until last). As mentioned you shouldn't rule out a sub just because you are in a townhome.

You can check the "hearing things" forum and see if there is anyone in your area who could audition their system so you can get an idea of the axiom sound. However, if you are close to the factory you should consider a road trip.

Don't forget if you purchase from the factory outlet section of the website you will save 10% on all speakers, but the wait time is generally 3-4 weeks.

Oh yeah, Welcome to the forums@

bdpf, I don't think that anything is really gained by converting a lossy file into a lossless version. I think that once you strip a file down and compress it what was removed is gone forever.

I do know that several people claim that the difference between a 320kbps mp3 and a lossless audio file is minimal. When you start listening to lower bitrate mp3's things just get worse though.

I guess it's the placebo effect then

Thanks for all the replies! I figured the downloaded music would probably be a lose, lose situation with any decent system I buy - I've just been so use to playing this stuff off of my computer, picking and choosing individual songs - it's very convenient!

I'm in the Ottawa area so it would probably be cheaper to get a few speakers shipped to me, then return the ones I choose not to keep. Unless I make a weekend trip of it of course!

Surrounds will be purchased for my next house, the QS series of course, as I mentioned in my post I have 2 rear speakers being mounted in the ceiling and can't change that now. (Made that decision prematurely).

I think I'm leaning towards the M60's for now, and with the extra money saved vs the M80's I can upgrade to the VP150. I wouldn't have to worry about a sub for now, and running the M80's with my Pio receiver. Some have mentioned that the M60's may hide my crappy music a little better too! Funny thing, on this forum many seem to think there is little difference between the VP100 and VP150, but when googling other forums many are saying the upgrade is worth while! Thanks for that link bdfp, I'll read through that when I get the chance!

Thanks for the warm welcomes!

I use M80s (and Audiobytes) and I almost exclusively listen to ripped music. Most of mine is 160K AAC or better (now doing 256K). I rarely notice much harshness; I definitely notice it with 128K MP3s, though.

Hi Chris,

Welcome and I'd only add to the comments here that the ultra-controlled scientific listening tests I did of various lossy algorithms at the NRC in Ottawa (along with other so-called "golden ears" from Canada and the US) essentially concluded that if you use 320 kbps data rates, it is "largely transparent" for virtually all music except a few eccentric instruments (castinets, harpsichord).

So you should be fine with the M60s. David is correct--once you have a lossy file, you cannot regain the data that's discarded when it's been processed by an MP3 algorithm or similar (unless you own the original unprocessed source).

And if you do drive across Algoniquin Park to Axiom, watch out for the moose and the deer wandering on to the highway.

Regards,

If you are serious about no sub, I would go directly to the M80. For a lot of my music, the M80s cover all the bass very well (noticably better than the M60). For synth and pipe organ, my sub extends right down to 20Hz making a noticable difference.

I believe that Alan has mentioned in the past that for high bit rate MP3s you cannot tell the differnce between them and lossless so the 320k stuff should be just fine. Edit: I see Alan already replied.

Since you are relatively close to Axiom, I would consider having both the 60s and 80s shipped to you and returning the 'looser' (not that either is anything less than superb.

I agree about the trip to Axiom. I did it in March just after a snowstorm on a sunny winter day. Between the fresh snow on the trees and the mist rising from the lakes it was beautiful!

I'm getting M80's...I wonder how bad they will sound with my old CD and DVD collection which I'm 99% certain is pretty crappy LOL.

You can enjoy pretty much any type of music on the m80's regardless of recording quality, age, ect.

However, you will really LOVE listening to great recordings and appreciate them that much more. This may lead you to be selective in what you listen to for critical listening sessions or demos of your system. I don't think it will stop you from putting your current collection to good use though.

Thanks!

I agree with what David (terzaghi) said there.

In my mind the whole "Crappy recordings will sound AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL" is a bit overblown. Yeah, they won't sound as good as well recorded stuff, but there is very little I find unlistenable on my Axioms (Audiobytes or M80s)--what there is, I would find unlistenable on iPod earbuds, most likely.

After all, there's only one CD that made me crash my car...

Completely agree.

I also agree with FredK comment. If you're looking for a deeper bass due to the type of music you listen too, maybe the M80s would be a better choice.

I will just point out that for the price of the M80s you can buy the M22s plus a reasonable sub.

The M60's are very good on their own, so don't think that you would be compromising. Now I've only compared them to M22's and other brands and have yet to hear the M80's. I like you're idea of ordering both and letting us know what you think.

With regards to the VP100 or VP150, I'd recommend the 100 for your room. I've now owned both and the VP100 is more that capable for the room size you have.

In your future, no matter what you buy I'd put money on it that you will get a sub. Nobody ever stops.

2 ---> 2.1 ---> 5.1 ---> 5.2 ---> 7.2 ---> 9.4 --->11.4

I have found many older cd's are actually better recorded than most of the new/remixed stuff. There are of course exceptions but for the most part older cd's were not recorded just to be loud for Radio play.

More great advice, thanks again! The more I think about it the more I think it's worth the extra few bucks to try before I buy. When the time comes I'll keep an open mind and try a few different products before choosing the right one for my space.

At this point I still like the idea of the M60 vs M80 and VP100 vs VP150. Can anyone else comment on the centre channel? Sloped, you commented that the VP100 is fine, what about a larger room down the road? I'd rather spend the extra few bucks now to futureproof myself. Of course, I'll probably buy both to compare anyways!

The woofer is definately a future purchase, with the plan we have for the room I will be sticking with the towers for now, I know many recommend the M22 + woofer combo, but I wouldn't have any place to hide the sub!

"As you count down from 10...to 9....to 8.....you're getting even sleepier. Now....from 7.......to 6...... picture yourself walking down each step..... to 5....... to 4......" {BLAM!}

Be careful buying both of everything... you could end up with surround sound in your living room and your bedroom

Hi Chris,

I bought the same receiver as yourself (Pioneer 9040 / Elite 21) on boxing day. I have also been looking to buy Axiom speakers. I sent an email to Axiom with my receiver and Brent promptly replied. He said: "Your Pioneer A/V receiver would drive any combination of our speakers with exception of the M80v2."

Assuming you have the same manual as myself, page 119 has a fairly detailed specifications listed (albeit a bit confusing) which confirms Brent's recommendation. Originally I had a bit of trouble finding the info, but it is there.

I'm thinking of getting the Epic 60 - 350 Home Theater System for myself, which *I think* would match up pretty good with the Pioneer 9040.

Hope that helps a bit.

Dave,

You shouldn't assume that your receiver will indeed have a problem driving the m80's. While pioneer is not a receiver typically recommended by axiom for use with the m80's, that doesn't mean it won't work... especially if your room is average size and you listen and "moderate" volume levels.

Personally I feel upgrading to the 150 if you are watching a lot of movies/TV is probably worth it unless you're sitting pretty centered and within 10 - 12' or so of the TV. If you have more off axis seating and seating more than 12' back you will be better off with the 150 IMO. It's only about $120 I think to upgrade. Most guys would normally suggest a third of what you are using for L&R but with a tower that is usually not an option for most people.

For HT, the center and the sub are probably the most important speakers (to a point of course), followed by the mains and then surrounds. Some guys may argue the mains are more important than a sub, but for a HT environment, especially with action filled movies, I don't know if I agree (again assuming we're not talking tiny satellites or something for mains).

This is true. I'm not saying it won't work, as I am in no position to call myself an expert, but I felt it necessary to pass long the info I received.

There certainly no downside in you getting the VP150. Just like there's no downside to the M80's over the 60's.

It just comes down to YOU and if YOU feel the added performance is worth the extra money.

Couldn't have said it better myself

Update:

Thanks again everyone for the discussion! I actually came across a used pair of M60's V2 which I couldn't pass up - even though I've never heard an Axiom speaker at work yet! The fellow was selling the pair for $350 and it cost me $40 for shipping materials + another $100 to ship to Canada.

All in all, a good deal - the grilles will need replacing due to "cat attacks", but the important stuff is excellent condition. I'm sure I can get replacements from the factory.

Good find! Be sure to post your impressions of them

Finally got my M60's today and cried when I opened the packaging .... these things are damaged everywhere. Two top tweeters pushed in, corners all dented, grilles snapped when trying to pull them off, paint chips, etc.

Anyone have any idea if Axiom would refinish these if I sent them in? I'll at least need new grilles from them, I suppose the other stuff is cosmetic. Also wondering if pushed-in speakers affect sound quality? There are no puncture wounds anyway on the two pushed in speakers (silver lining)?

I've contacted the shipper and shared my displeasure, I doubt I'll get a response since this was a private deal though.

I can share pics if someone can tell me how to post 'em!

Thanks

Damn, that sucks. How were the packed?

Honestly Chris, if the tweeters are pushed in, I'm wondering if it was done BEFORE shipping.

Are you sure they were in good shape from the seller? Between shipping and refurbishing from Axiom (if they do such a thing) I bet would cost a small fortune ... probably cheaper to buy speakers from them.

Sorry to hear about your problem.

+1

I agree--particularly if you really mean the tweeters. The tweeters would be very, very difficult to push in on these speakers without conscious effort. If you mean the dust caps on the midranges or the woofers, that's a different story.

Yeah the packaging from the seller was absolute crap. I don't think I mean tweeters, the speakers just below that are the ones pushed in ... the silk domed ones. (Sorry for the lack of knowledge, this is my first set)! I did see pics of these beforehand and they were not like this ... the weight of other items crushing my speakers I'm sure caused the damage.

What about Axioms trade-up program? I've heard people mention this before. Can I trade these in on new ones, or M80's if I need to "upgrade"?

Thanks for any help!

Where these in Chicago?

Well, if it's just the dust caps (the black part in the middle--which aren't silk domed, btw--that's just plastic), and the aluminum of the woofer isn't dented, that's a lot better. You can pull out the dents with masking tape or a vacuum cleaner; but there's no real need to, except for aesthetics.

Yeah these were from Chicago ... I'll try the tape idea, that's a good one!

Thanks

I saw pics of those on Craigslist, they looked good from the pics. It was on him to make sure the packaging was up to snuff.

Yes I agree. He initially quoted me $100 for shipping, then added another $50 for packaging. I would have been more than willing to spend the extra cash on shipping materials if it meant they were going to arrive alive.

This was definitely a result of shipping .... they were insured, not sure if that includes damage, hopefully he'll get back to me.

Either way you should not be held responsible for the damage. I wouldn't do anything to the speakers, get your money back.

I agree with Rick.

The shipper just wrote to me. He is taking this up with UPS - he's an Ebay seller also and has "never seen mishandling like this before." He says he will give me a refund, so I might come out ok!

Lets keep our fingers crossed, good luck.

If they were insured through UPS, they should re-imburse the seller and he can reiimburse you. I deal with UPS insurance on a consistent basis, the process takes a couple weeks, though.

A good deal is a good deal, *but*...

I'd personally forgo what looks to be a good deal from an individual buyer and throw down the extra cash for the new speakers from Axiom, even the factory outlet speakers will be fully warrantied and if there's any dings or nicks whatsoever from shipping Axiom will set you square. I would have the exact finish I want along with the added peace of mind .... but that's just me.

Well I guess i'll chalk this up to a life lesson - private purchasing needs to be selective! No big ticket items! Anyhow, just woke up to a full refund this morning ... looks like I got free M60's! I was able to pull out most of the inward pushed domes also. Guess I can't complain, sure was scary though.

Thanks everyone

That's good news. Do they sound OK?

Haven't even hooked up my new amp yet, hopefully sometime this week!