Hi all. I'm sincerely hoping for some input from some of you guys who know a lot more than me. I'm more knowledgable about audio/electronics than your average layperson, but I am no audiophile.

About 10 years ago, after I graduated from college, I bought two Polk floorstanding speakers at Circuit City; cost me ~$250 for the pair. I don't t know the model number, but they have one tweeter and two 5-1/2" drivers each. I've always been very happy with them for the money I put into them, but I've always known they were only modest speakers. I eventually bought an 8" Polk powered sub (~$300 at Circuit City) to pair with them, and these have comprised my "home theater" audio (yes, only stereo) as well as my primary music listening setup for a number of years. Recently I decided it was time to start moving up to "big boy" audio, and invest in something I could enjoy for years.

So I ordered and received last week a pair of Axiom M60's and a VP150 center speaker. My intention is to eventually end up with a nice 5.1 setup, but I'll do it in pieces. Phase 1 is 3.1 with the M60's, VP150 and (for now) the 8" Polk sub. First let me say, in sheer physical size the M60's dwarf the old Polks. They are slightly taller but noticeably wider and much, much deeper. I'd say in cubic volume the M60's are 50% bigger than the old speakers - maybe more. And they look great! Impressive to the eyeball test.

Here's the issue. I have everything hooked up, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed with the result thus far. The M60's are a modest improvement, but they do not sound like the upgrade over the Polk floorstanders that I expected and want them to be. It's primarily music CD's I've listened to - and a couple movies - but I'm overwhelmingly speaking of music. I expected more "airy-ness", more clarity, more separation of the instruments/sounds that make up a song - than I can hear. I really, really, really want to like these speakers and I'm hoping something else in my setup is to blame. Please give me any comments and/or ask any questions you care to. I would be appreciative.

I'm driving them with a several-years-old pre-HDMI Onkyo 5.1 receiver. I *think* it's model TX-SR505. I know it's listed at 75 watts per channel. It certainly isn't a high-end receiver (I think I paid $400 for it back in the day), but I've used it with my previous speakers and it was adequate. Could this receiver be holding back the M60's for any reason? Do I really need more power? I specifically passed on the M80's because I thought the M60's (at 8 ohms) would be easier to drive without a higher-end receiver. Now I do intend to eventually have a high-end receiver, and I could get one if need be, but I had planned to do this in chunks. The receiver would probably have come after all the speaker units were replaced.

My living room is laid out odd, and this may not help. It's about 14' x 20' with 9' walls that then taper up to a vaulted ceiling. Best I can tell it's about 280 square feet and about 3500 cubic feet (counting the vaulted area above). Also two of the walls have wide partial openings to the foyer and kitchen. Because of these openings the 50" television (on a stand) and speakers are oriented in the corner of the room, thus without a perpendicular wall behind them. However, I have the M60's pulled a good 12-15 inches away from the slanting wall behind them to let them breathe, and the VP150 sits on a shelf in my TV stand with an open back, so none of the speakers are right up against the wall. The room is carpeted, no hardwood, and due to the openings in the wall I really don't feel like reflections are a big issue (again, I'm no expert). I'm wondering if room acoustics could play a role, but I really don't have a better option to situate the speakers better than where they are.

And how about break-in period? I know speakers need time to sound "permanent". I've been leaving a 5-disc changer of music CD's playing each morning when I go to work to help out. In fairness, I've had them only 6 days now, but I figure the speakers have about 35-ish hours of play time on them. Maybe they just need more time before they sound right?

Again, thanks SO MUCH for any insight offered. I REALLY want desperately for my setup to be what I want it to be. I know the M60's are high quality, but I just don't feel like I'm getting "something" from the setup. My old system is clearly inferior but seems like it sounded 80% as good. I just feel like the M60's are better than that.

Thanks again!

CD

Hey CD,

Welcome to the forums, wow where to start.

I guess first of all, did you "re-calibrate" everything once you hooked up the new speakers. In other words, did you run the built in test pink noise and calibrate your speakers using an SPL meter, or the built in mic from the primary seat, assuming it came with one?

I think most likely your room layout could be part of the problem. But others have used a "corner" location without issues. Have you tried moving the m60's a little closer to the wall? This would help reinforce the bass frequencies, but not sure if that is what your having issue with. 12-15" should be fine, but might work better closer.

Are the speakers "aimed" straight out parrallel to your ears, or are they slightly towed in aiming behind you when seated? How far away from the speakers are you sitting? You want to be at least the same distance back as they are apart, or more...

Are all the drivers working? You didn't remove the gold connection between the speaker terminals did you on the back, that needs to stay in place with all terminals snug.

What mode on your receiver are you using when listening to music?

I would think the 60's should blow away those Polks, I know I thought my old 60's were better than B&W 703's which cost twice as much....Now I own m80's...

Thanks for the thoughts, sirquack!

Just for clarity, my receiver is an Onkyo TX-SR504. 7.1 receiver, listed as 75 watts per channel.

I didn't do anything to "re-calibrate" after changing speakers, and that may be a fair point. I don't have an SPL meter and I don't think my receiver came with a setup mic (again, it's a fairly low-end receiver), but I will check the receiver's owner manual and see what - if anything - they suggest for new speaker setup. There is likely something.

I have tried the M60's a little closer to the wall, but it didn't really seem to have an effect on the sound to my ears. The bass from the M60's is really quite satisfactory, it's more mid-range and higher frequencies where I feel something isn't right. They just don't sound "airy" or "spacious", if that makes any sense at all. For the sake of being thorough, I've also played them with the Polk sub both on and off.

I do have the speakers pivoted *just a wee bit* in toward the center. I measure the distance between the inner walls of the two speakers to be about 6.5 feet at their current placement (the TV stand, of course, sits in the space between); my primary seated position is about 9 feet from the left speaker, about 11 from the right (it occurs to me I did not input the speaker distance values in the receiver). So I think the distances are not particularly off.

I didn't remove the gold "bridge" that connects the pairs of terminals on the back. I am using banana plugs on the ends of my speaker wire. Perhaps I should try bare wire?

I'm listening to music in primarily stereo mode, which engages only the M60's. In tinkering I have tried "Dolby PLII Music" mode (which I didn't care for at all) and "Neo6: Music" mode (which was the far superior of the two, IMHO) just to engage the center speaker also. But after a moment I always put it back on stereo mode.

Another thought: I have the powered sub connected "in-line" with the L and R channels, because that's how the manufacturer recommended to set it up. It's not connected to the receiver's LFE output. I have tried the sub both on and off, but could the sub be doing something that's degrading the signal to the M60's? The sub has a dial to set the crossover freq, but the lowest it goes is 60 Hz (which is where I have it set); but again, the bass seems quite satisfactory to my ears.

I have a several-year-old 100-watt Nakamichi stereo receiver in my bedroom that is only used for playing CD's. This weekend I may take the M60's into the bedroom and connect them to that receiver just to see if they sound different.

Again, thanks for the insights!

No, the wire or ends aren't going to change anything. You definitely need to calibrate the system.

You should also move the sub to the LFE input--what the manufacturer recommends doesn't make much sense in modern AV. I doubt it would be affecting the mids and highs, but ya never know. You'll want to play with the position of the M60s as well.

Yep, as Ken mentions, you need to rerun the test tones for each speaker and set the dB levels to match, normally 75dB. If your receiver didn't come with a setup mic to do this, I would recommend you hunt down a Radio Shack SPL analog meter, so you can get all your speakers and subs to the same levels, this will make a HUGE difference.

The sub should be connected to the Sub LFE out jack on the receiver to the RCA Line IN jack on the sub, not using the high level hookups your using. For movies you want this for low LFE.

Also, the crossover on your sub should be set to the highest setting, or bypass if that is an option. You want to handle the bass management within your receiver, set all speakers to "small" and start with 80hz, as a crossover frequency, you can adjust this a little, but that is THX recommendation.

Fully agreed with above, but one other suggestion - try running the M60's full range (no receiver crossover engaged) with no sub attached. That will remove some of the variables from the equation. If you go that route you can then try a more direct comparison of your original speakers against the M60's with no complicating factors. Just a thought.

To be clear I am not suggesting you leave the setup this way as the sub will likely help overall sound impression, I was just thinking in terms of making it easier to evaluate your purchase.

Make sure your equilization in your receiver is set to "off" if you have one. That made a huge difference on my setup when I first got my M60s.

Thanks for all the input, gang. I picked up an analog sound level meter today at Radio Shack. I'll spend some time on your suggestions tomorrow and report back.

I sure appreciate it!

CD

Let us know if you need help using it, for starters here is a good article. You should be able to go into the receiver setup menu and do a manual level check which will cycle through each speaker...

How to Calibrate using an SPL meter

I want to jump in and help out, but the rest of the gang has it covered.

The only thing I'll add is that you should get it as close to symetric as you can. What you hear is the sum of the direct and reflected sounds and a non-symetric layout can affect that openness or airy sound.

One other point to consider as well is that you have been listening to your Polks for some 10 yrs and become accustomed to their sound, so it may take a little while to get used to your M60s or any other speaker. It would be interesting to listen to your M60s for a couple of weeks once you feel you have them set up to your liking, then give your Polks another listen to compare.

I think in this case, it sounds like "keeping it simple" would be the best way to judge the M60's sound. Try playing a good CD, with excellent sound quality, in the basic stereo setting. You can always connect the sub, and center later, after the critical listening session.

That's a good point and relevant to my experience. I went from Polk bookshelf speakers to M80s and still wasn't entirely wowed when I first got them. After doing more extensive listening, I started to realize just how much I'd been missing. It was an adjustment period.

C.A., here are some links that may (or may not?) help. The articles are getting a little long in the tooth, but the basics still apply.

AN INTRODUCTION TO TEST & CALIBRATION DVDS aka "Why the hell do I need one of these things?" (To learn about DVE and AVIA, scroll down far enough to read "THE DIFFERENT DISCS AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES")

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration

Calibrating Your Home Theater System (this link is to page 4 of a 7 page article. Be sure to check all the pages for more info)

How To Set Up a Subwoofer (or Subwoofers) for Home Theater

Common Subwoofer Set-Up Errors by Edward J M

sirquack, that's a helpful link thanks. I'll be picking up one of those for when my new M60's come in.

Hi C.A.,

And welcome to the Axiom forums!

STOP breaking in your new M60s! Mechanical/acoustical break-in is a myth, and happens in seconds. Psycho-acoustical break-in takes longer--it's your brain and ears adjusting to a new reproducer in your room that's imitating the sound of musical instruments and voices.

About your leaving the CD changer running when you go out, I worry that a CD with much louder maximum recording levels may have come on and driven your modest Onkyo into clipping damaging one or more of the M60s's tweeters or midrange drivers. This happe ned to a friend of mine who was an executive at Mirage; he came home to find his amplifier smoking and his M3s silent for because he'd left a changer going, loud, all day.

Play a jazz or rock CD with pronounced cymbals and percussion and put your ear next to the M60 tweeters and midrange drivers to make sure they are working. You can use the pink noise test signal in your Onkyo instead.

The M60's spatial qualities are really very good, which makes me think there may be a midrange tweeter problem.

I can't speak to your Polks other than to say that over the years of reviewing Polks and hearing them at press intros, the line was very inconsistent. Some models were quite good and others very colored and inaccurate.

As everyone has noted, rooms and setup are very important, but please check the midrange and tweeter drivers. Run them full range, "Large", no subwoofer, and let us know.

Regards,

C.A., welcome. As Alan points out, forget about the speaker "break-in". Also, your 504 is a fine receiver and a great bargain; it can easily drive the M60s.

As to what could possibly be a problem(beyond becoming more accustomed to the sound over time), Alan's suggestion about checking to be sure that all the drivers are actually operating should be followed. One further thought on that area is to make sure that the connecting strips on the M60 terminals are tight so that both the high and low frequency sections are in fact connected.

Connecting Strips? You mean the 2 sets of wire terminals?

The pieces of metal between the terminals.

I really want to say how appreciative I am for all the suggestions, folks. This really is a remarkable community.

So it turned out I had less time to spend with the M60's this weekend than I had hoped, but here's what I did do:

- Removed the sub from being wired in-line with the L and R channels and put it on the LFE output.

- Completely zeroed out the "tone control" for treble and bass in the receiver.

- Set all the speaker distances properly in the receiver. (A question about speaker size later)

- Placing the sound level meter in my usual listening position, I adjusted the individual speaker levels in the receiver so that they were all at 75 dB using the pink noise test tones. They really were not far off, which may be typical, but did need very slight adjustments (I think L and R were ~1 DB and 2 dB lower than center before adjusting).

- Measured and slightly adjusted speaker positioning to assure as much symmetry as possible.

And, I have to say, it may be a psycho-"placebo" effect, but it does sound better. Not blow-me-away better, but better, cleaner. I think we're getting there.

Regarding speaker sizes: my understanding based on something (heaven knows what) I've read in the distant past was that your receiver handles bass in one of two ways based on set speaker sizes. If front L and R are set to small, no frequency below the crossover point is sent to those channels. If front L and R are set to large, frequencies below the crossover point are sent to both the front L and R AND the LFE channel. Is this right? So I thought if you had nice fronts that could go fairly low and then "bow out" gracefully when they reached their bottom, you basically wanted them getting the same frequencies that go to the sub. But some of you guys have suggested setting the M60's speaker sizes to small, which I think tells the receiver not to send them any signal below the crossover point? Am I understanding correctly? I'm sure a really nice sub has a lot more low-end than the M60's, but they aren't bad, and I'm not sure that the M60's aren't doing a better job with frequencies, down to, say, 60 Hz, than my little 8" sub is - although the sub clearly does better when it gets really low. I guess when you have nice fronts the whole small vs. large speaker size is a little unclear to me. In addition, my receiver has an ON/OFF setting called 'Double Bass', which according my best interpretation of the manual, specifies whether or not the L&R channels are fed the frequencies below the crossover (in addition to the LFE channel). In what tinkering I did, what seemed to sound best to me was setting the L and R speaker sizes to large, crossover at 100 Hz, and 'Double Bass' set to ON. Does that sound remotely correct?

Alan, thank you for your comments. I did physically remove the grills and lightly touch all the drivers to make sure they were all moving, but did not verify the operation of any driver/tweeter more closely than that. I'll try to find some good material and give it an ear test. Thank you for educating me about the "break-in" issue. I think it would be unlikely that anything was damaged by my leaving the CD changer playing during the day because I left it at a very comfortable listening level; I don't think anyone would've called it loud.

I really do think some component of what's going on here is probably the "psychological break-in" factor on my part. Today is only the 11th day I've had them, and I've not gotten to listen to them every day. In another 10 days so I want to hook the Polks back up in place of the M60's for comparison. I think the difference will be more apparent to me then.

Thanks for all the links, Ajax. Some good reading material I look forward to delving into.

CD

Close, but not quite.

Here is the jist of it:

Main speakers set to small - All info from channels 1 and 2 (call these the main R&L channels) below the crossover point is sent to the sub, along with LFE (.1) channel information.

Main speakers set to large - All info in channels 1 and 2 is sent to R&L mains, period, regardless of crossover setting. Sub plays only LFE channel.

Main speakers set to large with "double bass" setting - All information in channels 1 and 2 is sent to R&L mains. Information below the crossover point is ALSO sent to the sub, along with the LFE channel. If, for example you have the mains set at 60 hz, both the sub and mains will be receiving all channel 1 and 2 info below 60 hz.

EDIT: If the double bass setting sounds best, by all means go ahead and use it. I think you would be better off with the crossover at 60 - 80 hz as opposed to 100 though, the M60's will handle that range with ease. Personally I only have little W22's and I have them set at 90 hz, and they won't go nearly as low as the M60's.

A thought about your "EDIT", when in "Double Bass" mode, a setting of 100 Hz for the crossover makes the sub pick up the 100 Hz info in addition to the M60s. So the M60s are going as low as they can, and the 8" sub is starting at 100 Hz.

^Good point, brain fart, but that is probably why it sounds best to him, as that sounds like a pretty ideal setting.

Thanks, Potatohead! I understand that completely!

Hello folks, I just wanted to put a lid on this one.

After my last post, the final real change I made was to install the carpet spikes. I tried the carpet spikes when I first unboxed the M60's, but I took them back off as I felt they made the towers a little unstable (I still feel this way, to a degree). I've read opposing opinions on the web whether carpet spikes really improve the quality of sound, but I think they did help a bit. Since then, I've just been listening to the M60's for about three weeks. Probably 60% movies, 40% music, or something close to that.

I felt like my ears had likely gotten accustomed to the M60's, so this weekend I disconnected the M60's and connected my old Polks back up as L & R and played a few music CD selections in stereo that I thought the M60's were particularly good at. I'm somewhat embarrassed to say that the difference was almost laughable; my old speakers sound like listening to a speaker playing on the other side of a wall. It was... shocking. I expected to have a slightly different ear for the M60's after listening to them for a while, but I couldn't believe this was the same sound that had come from the Polks for the last 10 years and I actually thought it was pretty decent. I switched back to the M60's and they sounded very full and smooth. Back to the Polks. Ugh. Seriously? These are my speakers? Back to the M60's. Switching back and forth doing A vs. B comparisons with various things for a while and just generally wondering how I could not hear this much difference between them before. I'm sure I had some setup-type issues that you guys' suggestions helped me through, but I am now convinced that my initial disappointment in the M60's was largely in my own head and ears. I readily admit I am far from an audiophile, but I've always felt like I knew 'good sound'. This has been a bit of a humbling experience, but I am very pleased to say I am quite satisfied with the M60's.

FWIW, I've been very satisfied with the VP150 also. Now I'm just itching to get some QS8's and a far better sub! I intended to space this project out, but I know full well I won't wait much longer.

Thanks again to all you guys who gave me suggestions. Much appreciated!

CD

That is excellent news! The best thing is that the feeling does not really stop as time goes by. Once in a while, no matter how used you get to the quality, you'll get that "Wow! THAT sounds good!" feeling.

Glad to hear it. Sometimes we do see stuff like that--people get used to what they have. As much as I love my Audiobytes (and I use them more for music than I do my M80s), I'm always blown away at how good the M80s sound.

After owning Axioms for about five years now I still find myself experiencing the 'Wow!' effect every so often, 'cept mostly with with me I usually utter to myself "Damn these mf'ers sound good!" ... about the time I'm deeply immersed and uttering these words to myself the little missus pokes her head in the room and yells "YOU THINK WE CAN WATCH A MOVIE NOW?"

The only difference between now and 37 years ago (other than the speakers) is that back then it was "TURN THAT DAMN MUSIC DOWN...NOW!!"

Glad to hear you are enjoying your M60s, CA. Much like yourself, I certainly don't consider myself an audiophie, but I feel I have a decent grasp on what sounds good.

And Rick, "TURN THAT DAM MUSIC....UP!!!"

Right on, CD. Glad your ears broke in

Enjoy.

Awesome news, C.A.!

Thanks for dropping back in and sharing that news with us. It's a bummer to get new speakers and not be immediately satisfied with them. You stuck with it, though, and kept an open mind, and now you made a huge discovery! Keep on enjoying them babies.

I have a buddy here at work that I was pitching Axiom to. Told him that I had to audition Paradigms at the hole in the wall place in town. Offered to let him audition mine. What did he do.....he went to the hole in the wall, auditioned the studio 60's, suffered sticker shock and then went and bought the studios off ebay. No idea what he paid.

Huh, you'd think if nothing else but out of curiousity he'd have listened to your speakers. Maybe he just had his heart set on the 'digms from the start.

They sound good and they are very pretty. Hard to resist.
I could see him being lured in at the store but you say he then went out bought off eBay. I think I would have come over to listen to yours first if I were going with another online option. Perhaps that dealer also was anti Axiom or he just got the fever. Can't criticize him, it happens to all of us.

I have been to the place twice - I think their bread and butter involves installations using paradigms. The sales guy is very understated and I am positive he would not bad mouth any competition. He is knowledgeable and if there were differences, he would point them out and leave you to decide. Que Sera.

If I were looking at Paradigms, Studios that is, I would try an opt for the 100's. Although they're about 1/3 more than the 60's, they have 3 x 7" woofers vs 2 x 5 1/2" on the 60's. I suppose if a sub's being used it wouldn't matter too much though.