Hi all, 2 part question here. I'm seriously considering getting the m80 v3. I've read numerous things about the older models being harsh in the upper range (i understand room/ears/taste factor in this). Is the v3 toned down a bit?

Also, what would be a good stereo receiver to drive these puppies? I'm just interested in a stereo setup so i don't need surround sound. Is it overkill to buy something like a $700 Outlaw?

If you look at the V3 M80 graph it would not imply harshness. The treble is actually very linear. Note that the treble is not rolled off like a lot of speakers. Harshness will depend on the source/recording you are using and not the speaker.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/gallery_disp.html?image=M80_freq.gif&title=M80

For receivers anything from Harman/Kardon, Outlaw, Nad, Denon, Onkyo will all work well.

The M80s are not harsh. There are some people that prefer a much more subdued (reduced) treble and some people that just don't like Axiom.

There can also be issues with poor program material. With a speaker like the M80 you will hear everything on the recording. Not all material is well recorded.

I do believe that Alan described the high end on the V3 as a little smoother and the new graphs reflect this, but it is probably a subtle difference.

Quite frankly, I really don't know where this so-called M80 harshness stuff got started. A few months ago I traded a pair of M60s in for a pair of Vasallo M80s and despite the extra tweeter in the M80 along with a bigger cabinet and more drivers, I was quite surprised how similar the two models sounded.I have listened to and viewed several discs, (Blu-Ray and standard DVD movies, SACD, DVD Audio and regular CDs) and they all sound great even at high volumes without a hint of this "so-called" harshness.

I think the accusations have been made primarily by people that have never owned or even heard the M80s and just "bought" what they have read on the forums, especially those that were connected to another manufacturers product in order to justify their purchase. You see it everywhere with individuals who, despite any comparisons, have a preference for a certain brand anyway.

I have never heard 80s. The 60's are silky smooth.

Kord, welcome. You won't hear harshness through the M80s and associated receiver unless that's the way the program material is.

I'll add a suggestion that you seriously consider not limiting yourself to only front speakers. Surround sound creates a greater sense of realism, including 2-channel source materials which have the natural surround ambience contained in the front channels(there was no place else to put it)extracted by processing such as DPLII and sent to the surrounds where it belongs.

If you dont need a a/v reciever you should look for a integrated amplifier. There is a lot of good integrate for sell on CAM and they are build for music. Of course if you aren't looking for something called *bright* then you should take a look at some specific brand such as Nad, Musical fidelity, Marantz, Naim if you can afford. Yes i like Naim

Thanks for the tips so far. Probably asking something like this on an axiom forum will lead to certain answers as well I am weighing my options between Totem and Axiom and this point.

Receiver-wise I would like a AM/FM tuner as well so no integrated amps for me

Welcome Kordeo,

As most have pointed out, and this holds true for properly designed speakers of any brand, a neutral speaker with a properly engineered frequency response "can't" be bright, harsh, etc. as you read on other forums. 99% of the time it is poorly engineered CD's that bring out the flaws. I would not want a speaker that hides the true recording, but then again I try not to listen to crappy recordings.

What Totem Acoustic model are you comparing the M80's to? Totem and Axiom are much different speakers from a design perspective.

Agreed. I don't believe they are in the same price bracket if you are considering M80s vs anything above the "Hawks". Nevertheless, Totem makes some very nice speakers.

Hi Kordeo and welcome to Axiom Forums !

Brightness / Harshness of the Axiom speakers are an "Urban Legend". Before joining Axiom I was occasionally reading such negative comments. So when I joined Axiom I was eager to hear them and was prepared to hear hard, fatiguing and bright high notes. Was I ever shocked after auditioning them; absolutely nothing even close to brightness or harshness - I could not hear any foundations justifying such false comments. I found the Axiom speakers revealing, accurate with extended smooth high frequencies. I was surprised that Axiom was even offering parts to alter the tweeter response and I suggested stopping that practice. I'm glad that it was stopped. Doing so was only feeding that Urban Legend.

There were absolutely no reasons to tone down the v3; they did not need to be !

As it was mentioned to you so far, the source could be the issue; the room acoustic is also a major factor. Another important one is judgement from people not having heard revealing, neutral, accurate and linear audio speakers before in their room. I seriously doubt that is your case.

The higher the quality of your receiver will be the more rewarding will be the performance from your Axiom M80v3 speakers. Abundance of clean power is the key! Nothing can be “overkill” to power the Axiom M80v3 speakers; the Axiom A1400 amplifier has already proven it.

"Dr. House":

You are definitely right about the design difference, BUT, it should be noted that the Totems are also "considerably" more expensive. A Totem speaker in the general comparable performance range of the M60 and/or M80 will probably cost you "at least" three to four times as much money. Just as an example, I did some extensive listening to a Totem "Rainmaker" small center channel speaker which costs in the range of $900-1000 and after all was said and done, I didn't think it even sounded as good as my VP150. I have since moved to the VP180 which is, of course, in another league totally. Somewhat similar bookshelf speakers to the M22 will cost you in excess of $3000. In checking the specs., Totem small speakers don't seem to be able to handle high-power amps as well(125 watts max).

Having listened to a number of their speakers, I would admit Totems are well-made, sound good and have some interesting and unique designs in their floor-standing models, however, in my opinion, in no way does their price justify the performance you are getting in comparison to the Axiom line.

When it comes to the subjective assessment of speakers, however, I am sure there are Totem owners out there that might think differently.

Yeah, pricing was another reason I was interested in what Totem Acoustic model he was comparing the M80 to.

Hi Adrian,

I agree Totem makes good speakers. However, the M80v3 can rival the best Totems has to offer. Never let the price or the brand name of a speaker interfere with your judgement. It has been proven time and time again with scientifically controlled double-blind listening tests that Axiom speakers are preferred over speakers costing much more.

At audio shows and in store showrooms, I have auditioned speakers costing 20 times, 30 times and even more than the Axiom M80 and in many ways they were inferior to the M80. They were models from Tannoy, Verity Audio, Kharma, Avalon and Wilson to name a few.

Always trust your ears; you will enjoy better sound and save tons of money!

The Ti line were (are) less forgiving than the V3 line.

I have always felt the Ti was too forward, but never would I call them harsh. Harsh is a pretty tough word to use. It means irritating or scraping.

I agree, while Totem adds a little snake oil into their products (Totem beaks, break-in etc) the ones I have listened to are very nice and the build quality is top notch. You pay quite a bit of a premium on the build quality as well as dealer mark-up. The Axiom philosophy (multiple drivers) especially in that of the M80's is totally different compared to the Totem models. Application wise the M80 is more geared than the Totems for large/grand rooms, with huge power handling capabilities and dynamics.

You are a brave man Jc. I'm afraid I would find something that really does sound significantly better than the M80 that I might lust after. I already have enough things to throw money at.

As far as the M80, I would suggest that in some rooms (very bare walls, not carpet...) they will sound a little bright because the highs are not rolled off at all.

I have yet to find a set of speakers that sound as good/better than my M80s at the lower volumes I usually listen to, louder volumes I have found a few speakers in the $5000 and up range that I think sound better but I will never know if they are in fact better as they are in show rooms and not my own environment.

It would be quite interesting to experience a blind listening test showcasing the M80 V3 Vs. this totem "wind" tower. Note the price is almost $14,000. What do you get sonically for that additional cash?

http://hometheaterreview.com/totem-acoustic-wind-design-loudspeaker-reviewed/

A bigger hole in your wallet?

At $14 grand I would hope they throw in a beak or two...

Thanks Fred !


The sound qualities and virtues of the M80 are constant and remain the same. To your point, the acoustic of a room will modify the sound which you hear. When this happen why associate the defect heard to the speaker rather than pointing out the guilty factor - the room acosutic ? Would that make it a more honest evaluation/judgemrnt of the speaker and, at the same time, a more exact appreciation of the situation?

You are correct on that last point Jc. I did not intend to suggest it was the speaker, but rather the speaker/room combination.

The only totems i've heard was the Totem Staff (Tower Speaker). I don't remember what the price was, although I didn't think it was super high. Maybe it was just for one speaker tho. I should hit the shop again and check it out. If they are priced high used would be an option, although that kind of scares me. And, after all, I am still leaning towards the M-80.

Three years ago, when I was finalizing my choices of speakers (just before I learned about Axiom, actually), I was dragged by a friend to a "listening contest" by a "unindentified company" that wanted to win over an important reseller in Montreal (for whom my friend performs installations once in a while).

We were seven and all seven were generally impressed by all the speakers we heard and thought it was probably a virtual tie between the three, assuming probably a slight plus for the "marvel speaker that only takes 250 hours of break in". The three speakers were: Totem Wind (the "marvel speaker"), Paradigm S8 and some Boston Acoustics (I can't remember which model exactly).

Once the speakers were unveiled and that the actual sequence in which we heard was matched with our scores of the 20+ tracks (half classics, half rock), the saleman was in shock that the points given elected the Paradigm S8 (by a large margin) and the B.A. a bit ahead of HIS Totem Wind.

Red-in-the-face, insufficient break-in period was blamed for this "charade of a test" (organized and supervised by him!) and a fight almost broke out with the store owner accused of "sabotaging" his highly superior speakers! And that, of course, we were all ignorant non-audiophiles!

Fun time. A few months afterward, I got M80s and I am still VERY happy with the road I chose.

Thats a funny story.

Bonjour Éric !

I love your story ! ! ! Thanks for sharing!

Merci!

Hi Fred,
I know what you meant but the reason why I was bringing it up is that I received too often comments about Axiom speakers being bright. All the time, these callers/emailers are referring to comments from the Axiom and other Forums.

I'm enjoying this thread. I'm liking what I'm hearing. I could add that bass is a high priority to me, being a bass player.. that seems to be another area where axiom has an edge over totem.

Kordeo. Even some Axiom detractors have given a grudging nod to the bass on the M80. Tight, articulate bass down to 36 Hz in room is impressive for a speaker in this price range.

There is of course the option of adding a sub but i'd prefer not needing one

Kordeo and Fredk,

The M80s on their own in a room do a fine job of pipe organ fundamentals to below 30 Hz. They run out of steam around 27 Hz. I'm a pipe organ (also Wurlitzer theater organ) enthusiast.

Adding a powerful subwoofer like the Axiom EP500 will bring additional impact and extension to below 20 Hz.

Regards,
Alan

Alan, I havn't actually measured the M80s to see how low they extend in my room. I did do something funky with the receiver the other day ending up with only sub output playing my Great Organ Works disk.

I was surprised how little output there was through the sub: very muffled/subdued, even with an 80 Hz crossover.

I did try switching back and forth between 2 channel and 2.1 with that disk and the sub does round out the bottom end, but the M80s really do and impressive job on their own.

I have the M80s, EP600, VP150, QS8s powered by the A1400-8. These speakers do NOT sound harsh in any way (I have a large living room carpeted with a cathedral ceiling). I agree, 100% with Alan and JC. I have a major audiophile buddy whose system is highly specialized (custom built Swiss tube amp., custom made single driver speakers, etc. <tube phono stage..he's into vinyl>) who thinks my system is terrific (a completely different philosophy from his). He's heard speakers costing 20 to 30x the cost of Axiom speakers, as JC mentioned above, and he feels that the Axioms are sometimes better than those. I think its a bit of a back handed compliment when I've read, for instance "for the cost of Axioms, they're the best way to go"..or something to that effect. The Axiom speakers are a terrific speaker on their own merit, period.

I am also a great fan of the pipe organ and the M80s work with the EP600 to create a seamless, clean, natural and well defined bass. I honestly cannot tell from which speakers the bass is being produced.

Per JC's comments, the M80s shine all the more with the more clean power you give them. However, my buddy brought over his extra Audio Zone amp (something like 5 watts / channel) and the M80s sounded terrific with it, also.

I once went over a week using my M80s w/o realizing that my EP500 sub was turned off. Playing a movie that was suppose to have some really deep rumbling bass is what finally gave it away, but for music I hadn’t even noticed and I listen to a lot of Trance and other EBM. In part it was their excellent bass response that won the M80s the starting position in my setup.

I like detailed speakers and it had come down to Paradigm, B&W, Focal and the dark horse Axiom. To me the Paradigms sounded almost the same but not as good bass. The B&W sounded a little better in the midrange smoother vocals and some acoustical music. The Focals had a light airyness for ambient music. However, overall the “accuracy” of the M80s sounded on average better across all musical genres. As a reviewer once said about the M2s “If they weren't the best at every type of music, they were the best at any type of music” which is how I feel about the M80s compared to those above and a few other.

It reminds me when I first compared my M80s on their own without a subwoofer with music material powered by the A1400-8 instead of my ususal Mark Levinson No 23.5 amplifier. Once switched over to the A1400-8, the bass quality and quantity gained was so that I had to walk back to the sub verifying that it was indeed turned off.

Alan, Shea's here in Buffalo has a fine Wurlitzer.

http://www.theatreorgans.com/walnuthill/feature0105.htm

Have you had a chance to see and listen to this fine piece? Maybe I can bring it with me for Sept. 11th.

There are a few exceptions, like recordings with pipe organs; that's when the EP500 shines and is evident when it's not on. I have also had to get up and walk around the room, particurlarly the center channel, to confirm that I was listening in stereo and not a surround mode; the imaging can be that good.

Scott

Fred, I assume that your other thread on the Bach disc was based on all the speakers playing, not just the sub. I've suggested a few times that to see how "quick", "tight", "musical", etc. a sub is by itself that the speakers be disconnected while retaining an 80Hz or lower crossover in the receiver. Those qualities are almost entirely due to upper harmonics of a fundamental tone played by the sub, and those harmonics are played by the speakers. The very low bass fundamental actually played by the sub itself is "muffled/subdued" as you observed, and not very "musical".

To some extent the level is also lower, since the sound power in the harmonics is absent. The sub frequencies aren't necessarily "power hungry" as we sometimes see stated, since frequency isn't determinative of power requirements; level alone determines that. For example: 50Hz, 500Hz or 5000Hz at the same level uses the same amount of power and a 90dB 500Hz note requires 10 times the power that a 80dB 50 Hz note does.

Joel, it should be kept in mind that the only way that someone can "give" a speaker more power is to actually give it more power, i.e., make it play louder. A speaker such as the M80s using about 1 watt at a comfortably loud average level isn't being given more power by simply switching from a 5 watt amplifier to a 500 watt amplifier. Beware over-enthusiastic sales pitches.

No, I knew there was wonderful old movie theater in Buffalo and that it hadn't been torn down (as happened in some other cities) but I've never heard the Wurlitzer there.

Thanks for the link.

Alan

Regarding sub woofers...is it possible a 1979 sub that claims to go down to 25Hz and has its own separate amp can perform as well as say an EP350 or HSU VTF-1? Or is the technology so much more advanced now that I should not think twice about upgrading? They will compliment my projected purchase of M60v3's.

Hi Captain,

It's possible, but extremely unlikely. Is the sub from a specialty subwoofer manufacturer or is is a home-built job? Is it specified to 25Hz + or - so many dB?

I don't think it would be nearly as linear--as consistent--in its frequency response as an Axiom EP350 or Hsu product. There have been a lot of advances in subwoofer enclosure and driver design since the '70s.

Regards,
Alan

Does anyone have any feedback on this comment? It's interesting.

I whole heartedly agree with John. I listen to everything with PLIIx enabled. Makes for a much more realistic (or at least interesting, in the case of electronic music) sound field.