I have had my M22s (walnut/coffee stain/satin finish)for about 2 weeks now and they look and sound great. My plan is to build what will likely be a 3.1 HT system. The configuation of my room makes rears/surrounds problematic. The room is approx. 16 X 16 w/ 10' ceiling. My listening is 50-50 music-movies. The receiver I'm looking at is the Denon AVR 591 which seems to fit my budget and needs well. For the center I'm thinking VP150, but wonder if the VP100 is really all I need. The sub is where I am at a complete loss. I've been looking at Axiom, Hsu, and Elemental Design among others, but I'm not sure exactly what I should be looking for. Is the receiver a good choice? What about the center question? The sub, I just don't know. Any advice? Am I on the right track or have I stumbled into a fool's paradise?

thanks, jerry

Welcome!

Do you have a budget in mind for your subwoofer purchase?

range of $400 - $600

Outlaw LFM-1 Plus looks good to me. I'm thinking about buying one for someone with a pair of M3's and no other speakers.

CatBrat, what exactly should I look for in a sub? I know frequency response, power rating and such and I can compare the numbers, but what I don't know is what my needs really are. It's too easy to get the big eyes and buy more than I need. I'm trying to avoid that and at the same time get a good quality sound. I listen 50-50, but the music is more important to me than the movies. What is it about the Outlaw sub that attracts you? I really am new to all of this. Initially I was just replacing my speakers in a stereo system, but thought a basic HT would be nice to have as well.

thanks, jerry

All I can do is relate what I know, which isn't a whole lot on this subject. I wanted to stick with Axiom on all of my speaker purchases, because I believe in what they make, wanting the flattest freq. response that I can get for the money.

My first purchase was the EP175, which is a 10 inch sub with a 175 watt amp. I was only wanting a sub that would complement the M22's that I currently have, without adding too much bass and making the sound bass heavy. I also like to play my music and movies fairly loud, at around 80-90 db or so, depending on what I'm listening to. I discovered that the little 10 inch woofer and 175 amp, just couldn't keep up.

Next I ordered the EP350 and returned the 175. With it's 300 watt amp and 12 inch woofer, it's everything I was originally looking for, and more. With the volume on it turned down a little, I get the complement that I was looking for. With it turned up a little, I get the extra boost for explosions, etc. that help make movies a little more enjoyable. But with the special vinyl that I had mine done in runs right at $830.

I don't know how flat this Outlaw is, that's one thing I haven't discovered yet. But at 350 watt, and 12 inch woofer, it might be the equivalent of the EP350. Except the Outlaw is downward firing which I don't have any experience with, so for me it would be an experimental purchase. They make a size smaller with a 200 watt amp and a 10 inch woofer, but I'm afraid I would run into the same problem I had with the EP175.

I ahve a Denon 1910 (791 equiv) and I *just* set up my LFM1-Plus last weekend... one warning, the LFM1-Plus is a powerful unit. Though my room isn't big, weighing in at 10x14x8.

I hooked it up, set it to max extension mode (down to 18Hz) (figured I didn't need too much volume in my room) and set the Volume to 4. I put in Pixar's "UP" and went to the Storm scene. I swear the pictures almost jumped off the wall!

Turned the Volume on the sub down to 3 and ran Audyssey. Even with the Sub's Master Vol at 3 my sub channel gest set to -12.5dB.

I still need to tweak the position, volume and recalibrate before I comment on tightness and quality of bass but I can certainly vouch for the fact it goes LOW and does it LOUD. From what I understand Front firing vs Down firing makes no difference. Down Firing is better if you have little kids that might put things in ports though...

Also, the Denon 1910 puts my movies at an uncomfortably loud volume at -15dB on the Dial. I imagine the 591 will fill your room just fine.

However, having said all the above, your room is ~5100 cubic feet and mine is only 1100 so you have a lot more space to fill. Really I just wanted to blather about how happy I am with the sub.

snazzed

From what Snazzed has said then perhaps the Outlaw LFM-1 (not the plus) would work for my intended purpose. The room it's going to be in is rather small, a little less than my living room.

I didn't see anything about a return or upgrade policy on their website. Is anyone here familiar with their return and upgrade policy, or even if they have one?

Outlaw is pretty good with their C/S I would suspect it to be similar to Axiom as are most ID companies.

I have an Outlaw LFM-1 Plus(I believe the LFM-1 was discontinued), an excellent sub that is basically a slightly modified HSU design at a better price. I have a combination of front firing and a down firing sub in the LFM-1 Plus and from a performance point of view, the differences in the designs are very slight and hardly noticeable.

Outlaw has the same 30 day return policy as Axiom.

Jerry, welcome. In my view the term "3.1 HT system" is something of an oxymoron, since surround sound is essential to the home theater experience, including 2-channel music. Speaker positioning is often "problematic", but the problems can almost always be solved. If you'd give some details, we may be able to offer some helpful suggestions.

To match your excellent M22s, a third M22 used as a vertical center would be best, or an M2 would also work very well. This is another application where positioning problems can usually be overcome.

The 591 is a fine receiver. You should consider getting it or a similar model as a factory refurbished unit from a source such as Dakmart or eCost. These are likely to be at least as reliable as a brand-new unit, but with a significant price saving.

I'll second JohnK's suggestion.

I bought my Denon AVR-3805 and DVD-2905 from Dakmart. Very minor ding on the AVR-3805 but otherwise it's been great. The DVD-2905 had some player problems after a few months and Dakmart did a good job of fixing it under warranty. I'd be buying the AVR-4311 from them except I'm too impatient this time to wait for for Dakmart to start having some B-stock.

Their specs only indicate a 12" down firing. Is there a passive driver in the front?

JohnK, regarding rear speaker placement...a sofa is against the back wall. There is floor space on either side of the sofa. Wall mounting is not an option at this time for several reasons (not the least of which is spousal approval).

regarding your 3.1 HT comment: I agree and you have hit on the nub of my questions. Is a 3.1 set-up going to give me what I'm looking for (enhanced movie watching) or should I just back off the HT idea and concentrate on a stereo system for my music listening.

thanks, jerry

Re Denon Refurb from DakMart, a US Retailer and I am in Canada... I have a horror story. Short version:

My Refurb's Sub Pre-Out didn't work... there was an RCA pin broken off in the connector. I was lucky I was able to remove it and fix the connection myself because apparently...

Denon's Warranty is only valid in the Country of Purchase.

The Warranty, I don't like, but I can understand. My biggest beef is with the Refurb Process here. Did they not LOOK at the unit? The problem was OBVIOUS when I opened it up. Did they not TEST it?

WTF

snazzed

EDIT: I could have shipped the Reciever to Denon US for Warranty service but decided not to bother.

No, the LFM-1 "PLUS", "EX" and "Compact" are all strictly down firing subs. The only one of their product line that is front-firing is the ECS-10, Outlaws version(along the lines of the Supercube) of a more expensive compact, high power subwoofer.

Once again, if you read the reviews of these small subs(and the ECS-10 is no exception), the reviewer generally always states they sound good BUT they can't fill a room with real DEEP bass. In most cases, nothing can duplicate the bigger driver and box.

Having quality front speakers and a good sub will already enhance your movie experience. If you are not intending on having surround, I would stick with a 2.1. The center will make the dialog clearer but you can get similar results if you seat at the sweet spot. One day if you decide to go 5.1, you can always get the center then.

Jerry, no, you shouldn't back off on the HT idea, but simply adding a separate center speaker doesn't go very far in getting you there. A separate center speaker does have some advantages over just using the mains to form a "phantom" center; the dialog is anchored to the center for off-center listeners and the volume for the center channel can be raised independently to make low-level dialog easier to hear. However, in my view the order of priorities for an HT setup is mains, surrounds, sub and then a separate center.

If wall mounting is completely out for the surrounds, the speakers, preferably QSs, can be placed on stands in the back corners. There are even techniques such as putting the speakers on the floor in the back corners, and firing up toward the ceiling, which provide a reasonable if not ideal surround effect.

JohnK, the only location for surrounds would be floor/stand mounted on either side of the rear sofa (not a very good option?). There are no rear corners in the room, one side is a hallway and the other is a cased opening to the kitchen. It's sounding like my best option at this time is 2.1 and explore other possibilities (maybe rearrange the room, although I've pretty much exhausted my ideas there w/o a solution). My plan has always been to build this a piece at a time, so I have alot of time to think on it. Any thoughts?

thanks for your help, jerry

I would think that Qs4/8 mounted high up on the rear wall would be better than no surrounds at all. But I haven't listened to that either.

What about mounting the QS on the ceiling and facing them downward? Is that an option?
I agree with JohnK's speakers priority also in your case, since you have the M22s, I would place the sub in 2nd place so you can get a full range stereo system. I only got the center first because we are always 3 or more watching a movie so I wanted a wider dispersion and also wanted to be able to raise the volume of dialog in some movies. I also build my HT one piece at the time. I bought the AVR on boxing day, the M80s in January, the VP150 in May, returned it, got the VP180 in July, my plan is now to try to get the surrounds by Xmas and a sub by the summer. It takes a long time but in the end it will be worth it, the same as for you so buy what you can afford now, start enjoying it and start thinking how you can implement the missing pieces. Even if it is not ideal, as JohnK said, there is always a solution.

Ditto. Bought the Receiver and M22s first. Waited three months and got my QS8 surrounds. Waited four more months and bought my Sub. I'm hoping to get the Centre for Christmas. If not I'll probably pick it up in February.

It might take me a year to get the full 5.1, but even starting with 2.0 I got what I wanted and it sounded ever so satisfying at each step along the way!

snazzed

Yep, that sounds like a good approach. My HT evolved the same way over ~5 years :

- stereo receiver, M2s
- stereo receiver, M2s + sub (less than a week after getting M2s)
- 7.1 receiver, M2s + sub + crappy old speakers as surrounds
- 7.1 receiver, M60s + sub + M2s as surrounds
- 7.1 receiver, M60s + sub + QS8s + M2s as center
- 7.1 reciever, M60s + sub + QS8s + VP100
- 7.1 receiver, M60s + sub + QS8s + VP180

Now I need to hook up the M2s as rear channels and figure out what to do with the VP100

Logical upgrade:
9.2 receiver, M60s + sub + QS8s + VP180 + VP100 as rear center + M2s as front highs + 2nd sub to even out the room bass response

Jerry, "either side of the rear sofa" was about what I was indicating by the term "back corners". Placing them at least, say, 4' wider than the couch on each side and up against the back wall should be feasible since you say that the room is 16' wide, and can work well.