Well, what I am going to say may not sound good but I will say it. Axiom has let me down. For some time one of my speakers cabinet has had some problem with the finish. After getting in touch with Axiom has been asked to send some pictures. Today just got an e-mail stating that some liquid might have been spilled on the speakers and for that reason a fix on the speaker is out of question. That´s a pretty harsh IMO to just state that this is something that I have done. Have been asked to pay for the new cabinet, what is not an option, not because of money but because of principles; since I have NOT damaged my speaker, don´t really think I should pay for it. Thanks for all the help you guys have given me all the time and for all the good time I spent here but that just means and end for me.

Sorry to hear that. What was the problem with the finish? Discoloration, separation, warping, ... ?

Can you post a pic?

Ichigo if somebody at Axiom sounded harsh with their reply keep in mind that we are dealing with somewhat of a language barrier and sometimes what may very well seem like a harsh statement wasn't intended that way in the least, I've experienced that first hand. If you think maybe that is the case, try again with a different representative.

As Bruno has already mentioned, can you post a picture here?

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Since I got my speakers there was air inside, whenever I pressed on the right spots there was a feeling that there was some gap on the inside. That´s okay though I am not gonna fly off the handle over it. That´s just disappointing.

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This last picture definitely looks like moisture damage. It's the best explanation for the swelling MDF and I can understand why Axiom said what they did. Since this is the bottom of the speaker, is it possible it came into contact with water or another liquid at any point?

I honestly don't know what to say... I believe you when you say you didn't damage the speakers but also understand why they would think water was spilled on them. That's a tough one and I understand your disappointment, however stick around as the people on this forum don't necessarily agree on all Axiom's decisions.

From these pictures (especially the bottom picture) it almost does appear that the MDF expanded and pushed the vinyl seams apart and about the only thing that comes to my mind that would make the MDF expand like that is moisture. I see that this is the bottom of the speaker, has it ever been setting on a wet carpet or floor Ichigo?

Of course it will most certainly be very difficult to have a better understanding without seeing the speakers first hand.

Soory about the speaker, hopefully the issue can be rectified for you somehow.

Not at all since I have them on auralex mopads. They are not on the floor.

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[img:center][/img] This is on the top left corner if I am not mistaken.

As mentioned it looks like some type of moisture damage.... Ichigo, were they subject to high humidity, like in a basement without a dehumidifier?

Ichigo, I'm unclear: Did they look like this when you received them?

How were the shipping materials upon arrival in Japan? Where the boxes punctured, or wet when they arrived?

Are the MoPads on the floor? They are just big, foam sponges. If the floor was wet, it's possible the MoPad would soak up the moisture, and hold it against the speaker.

It is never the intent by Axiom to "let down" any customer regardless of issue. It is always our intention to provide the best solution to the issue at hand.

Axiom has been manufacturing loudspeakers in excess of 30 years and has seen every probable issue. In this case, the MDF used to build the cabinet has expanded splitting the seams, excessive exposure to moisture would be the only cause to create this sort of swelling of the MDF.

The only real solution to this issue would be to replace the cabinet, an option presented by Axiom. The cost involved essentially covers the cost to ship the cabinet from our facility in Canada to Japan which we believe to be a fair compromise.

Please contact me directly, brent@axiomaudio.com, so that we can arrive at a solution to your issue.

Looks to me like Axiom is going above and beyond what should be expected.................as usual.

Ichigo, even if not intentional, it surely looks like they were exposed to moisture and if it the case, Axiom wouldn't have to replace anything. If the only cost to you is the shipping (and not the cabinet), it is fair IMO and I don't think you would get better than that from any company.

As Mark asked did they come like this in shipment, or over time did this problem arrise. I can understand the seam bustin as Brent mentioned, BUT, bubbling under the vinyl sound like a problem with the adhesive process to the mdf, possibly a manufacturing problem, which is not out of the questions. jm2c

When I got them they were not exactly like that but there was already a small gap between the bottom and the side, which I told my wife but could not imagine would turn something this huge. I did not contact Axiom because I thought this was part of the FO ¨deal¨, which clearly is not. On the top corner there were air bubbles, small ones but they were there. The problem is that they were not in contact with any kind of moisture while with me, which was stated on the e-mail received. The speakers have been exposed to some liquid which makes this not qualify for warranty.

Ichigo, I was certainly sad reading that you're thinking of leaving us. I've enjoyed our discussions on various technical points, and besides, we have the unfinished business of getting your 3310 set up properly. You can't leave now!

I don't know exactly what the Axiom communication was, but if you felt personally insulted or that your honor was questioned I understand how you feel. Personal insults are, to me, unforgivable on a friendly discussion forum. Hopefully that wasn't what was actually intended, though.

If I understand Brent's reply above, the only expense you'd have would be for the shipping of the new enclosure to you. Even in a regular warranty situation the customer pays shipping expenses back to Axiom for repair or replacement, so no additional cost would be involved in doing it this way.

Hope that this works out well and we continue to enjoy your company.

I think you are being honest Ichigo, it is unfortunate that this happened. Whether it was a production defect, a result of sitting in a humid climate on a ship to Japan, or whatever happened, something is wrong. For that kind of damage I think it would have to sit submerged in moisture for a good amount of time.

Once a friend of mine accidentally spilled some beer on the top of one of my EP350 subs during a movie night. It went unnoticed for about an hour before I realized it and cleaned it up. That was over a year ago, and there is no sign of any damage.

John, I've had warranty situation before and never had to pay any return shipping? I know if you return product during the 30day trial, you have to pay shipping back.

I do hope Ichigo sticks around as well.

Randy, I thought that I'd read that the customer pays the shipping back to Axiom, then Axiom pays the shipping back to the customer. Fortunately I've never had any problem, and apparently as you say, Axiom pays shipping both ways.

I suppose it depends on the situation, hard to say....

Usually when an item is damaged upon receipt a photo (in a timely manner) will prompt the co. to send a shipping label for return. Just my 2 cents.

When I had to return the EP800 amps several times, and finally return the older EP800s with newer versions, pre-paid return shipping labels were always e-mailed to me in .pdf format. I never had to pay return shipping for warranty work on the EP800s. Now, that may have been a different story since the EP800s were just released and some bugs needed to be worked out.

Just for a clarification the room floor where my speakers are is tatami, for the ones who does not know.
A tatami is a type of mat used as a flooring material in traditional Japanese-style rooms. Traditionally made of rice straw to form the core (though nowadays sometimes the core is composed of compressed wood chip boards or polystyrene foam), with a covering of woven soft rush (igusa) straw, tatami are made in uniform sizes. Usually, on the long sides, they have edging (heri) of brocade or plain cloth, although some tatami have no edging. So that would have drained any kind of moisture before it could ever reach the speakers unless my apartment was flooded which is not the case. I do take a good care of my speakers and by any means no liquid has ever get in touch with any of the speakers. So if I get a message saying the warranty does not apply because this is water damage and I surely have not let any kind of liquid ever get in touch with it in my understanding it is being implied I am lying on the matter.

Message gotten from Axiom was.

Hi Wesley,

I have received the pictures, thank you. The pictures indicate that the cabinet has received water damage and is not a warranty issue. You can purchase a replacement cabinet for your M22.

At the time I got the speakers I would not imagine it would turn out this bad. Since it was Factory Outlet thought this was standard. For that reason there was no complaint at the time. There was a small gap and some bubbles though. The gaps were just where the speakers burst opened and the bubles were where on the top left corner, where it also burst opened.

As bad as that looks, and being no fault of yours, I wouldn't expect to cover any of the replacement costs. At the most, maybe they should have you pay the difference to get you A-stock. Personally, this scares me away from getting anything other than A-stock.

It is unfortunate, that is fact.

I've had nothing but a positive experience with my b-stock factory outlet stuff. They have been a a humid basement for years with absolutely no signs of anything like what is in the pictures. For me, the only bad part about the F.O. stuff was that I had to wait 12 weeks for them to ship since there were no F.O. QS8's available when I ordered and had to wait.

I hope that this gets ironed out, and while the email from Axiom was abrupt, I can 100% see why they would come to that conclusion. There are a lot of shady people in this world who wouldn't think twice about trying to screw over a company by claiming that they were the victim. I'm not saying that is you, Ichigo by any means, but I am sure that it happens and I think that we all can agree that this looks like moisture/water damage.

Again, I hope that this works out for you. IF the replacement cost is 1-way shipping, then that is good and fair.

This is probably Axiom's perspective on things: If the speakers were really bad when you got them and you didn't do anything about it at that time, then that is, understandably, your fault for not reporting it (even if it was really something in manufacturing). If this happened over time while in your possession, then either something happened in shipping, or while in your possession and again would be potentially your fault for liquid damage, or the fault of the shipper or something else going wrong, and again not likely a manufacturing error.

Anyway, you get the point. I can see when they are coming from completely, but am glad that it looks like they are offing a fair solution to the problem. Good luck!

These are opinions...

You received your speakers in July of 2010. I read through all of your posts and you never made a comment of a bad finish... Ever. You did however post a lot of other questions on tuning them and getting things right, so it's not like you were absent from the board... You made over 400 posts in that time.

10 months later you posted that it appears that there is a manufacturing defect with your speakers because the vinyl is popping off via the MDF expansion.

From what I see (the speakers are turned upside down in your pictures), the speakers wicked moisture from wherever they were set. I don't know what you actually had them set on, or what was underneath, but the pictures clearly show that the speakers were absorbing moisture from whatever was underneath them. And, since it has been so long since you had them without complaint, I would have to side with Axiom in this instance.

I'm sorry about the damage, but I just don't see this as an Axiom manufacturing defect.

Tsunami?

ALL of my speakers are "B-stock" from the factory outlet (redundant, eh?). We live in a high humidity area (Louisiana gulf coast) and keep out house on the warm side during the summer (78F / 26C) and the recording chart I borrowed from work shows a range of 75-85% RH. I've had my system for 4 years now and there are no signs of blistering or separation.

Now then, with that said, when we came back to the house after Katrina and there was 6" of standing water in the living room and condensation dripping down the windows - on the inside! - items that looked like Ichigo's were in direct contact with water. Items of similar manufacture (vinyl covered MDF) not in water were OK.

jm2c...

As many have mentioned, this kind of damage has to come from extended periods in a high moisture environment or location. A few of the pictures looked like vinyl nicks as opposed to moisture damage for which there could be a few other alternate reasons. These nicks are typical of B stock speakers (the minor blemishes). The one picture that stands out is the obvious MDF blistering.

Our basement flooded once, and i still have pictures of the water line left across the bottom of my vinyl wrapped M60s and EP350.
There has never been any sign of MDF expansion or peeling of the vinyl since that incident.

Kudos if Axiom is willing to help out in this situation, but i'm on the fence as whether something happened to these speakers, either in transit (and in such case damage should have been reported upon reception of the speakers), or if something happened unknowing to the owner (if it were not for the water lines on the gear and a wet carpet, i would never have known our basement flooded overnight).

Unfortunately a damaged cabinet can certainly start to affect the sound depending on the extent of the damage so i would also be looking for a fix in this situation.

Chess, if your speakers have never peeled or expanded after your incident, I wonder if some other liquid or chemical other than moisture could be to blame. This sure is a strange problem.

From my experience, MDF deteriorates pretty quickly when it's exposed to water, and a water stain remains even after the "wood" has dried. I'm no expert by any means, but I don't think that humidity on its own should affect the speaker finish to that extent. So, if it is water damage from sitting on a damp surface etc., then the MDF should have a visible water stain on it. If my understanding is correct, then I don't know why a warranty replacement or cabinet replacement couldn't be based on a visual inspection at the plant when returned.

Ichy: A late 2 cents.

I am asked to fix that sort of thing from time to time--not with vinyl on furniture, of course, but with veneer over PCB (particleboard) or MDF.

If it was moisture, it was exposed for a very long time. If it was water, a half-hour could do that.
It's one or the other for sure.

If I weren't so lazy, I would post pics of some of the materials after the flood in my woodshop. Only cut-offs were not scooped up immediately and left to die.

If I showed you pics of MDF ruined by water, you'd see that it does expand. I've had 1" MDF grow to almost 1.5" when soaked. When it dries out completely, it does not shrink back to it original size. It hardly shrinks back at all.

Sometimes it can be fixed, sometimes not at all. PCB instead of MDF is a guarantee of the dust bin.
There's a chance with MDF.

Your damage (from what I can see on the pics) can be repaired by a decent furniture repair shop.

If you want to know how, PM me, 'cause it requires a number of steps and is too boring to read here.

(I know. I know.)
"Jeez, that never stopped him before."

There is a VERY visable line of water damage on the speakers.

Hey, Steve. I looked for a water line yesterday, and just looked again in Photoshop (brightened the picture and lowered the contrast, then magnified it), but I still don't see anything. The last picture on the first page shows obvious peeling of the vinyl away from the MDF, but the slightly darkened area looks like a shadow to me, rather than a water line.

When I zoomed in on the photo, the corner of the speaker looks really bad. It looks like there's deterioration (separation) or something else, many inches from the bottom edge where the peeling is....

Those are just my observation's. Hopefully things work out for Ichigo, as Axiom is yet again willing to go that extra step to make things right.

Hi Cam,

Pick either of the two, it's very obvious.

Something sure smells rotten in the state of Denmark.