A few off the wall questions. I’m using M22s/VP100 for fronts and some *really* old mini-Advents for the surrounds in a small 13'x14' room. The sub is a very low-end leftover I bought as a package with some satellites.

On a lark I moved my crossover from 80hz down to 60Hz and liked the result. So the basic question is, is going down to a 60 Hz crossover not good for the M22s/VP100? Also, I tend to use this system for music and play it reasonably loud, say 80db. I have a Yamaha which doesn’t allow individual crossovers. So a secondary question is will that hurt my mini-As? I’ve been tempted to get some M2s as a replacement for the surrounds. When I listen to music I’m generally listening in all channel stereo, so the level is the same on the surrounds as the fronts. Will a 60 Hz crossover be bad for the M2s?

And while I’m at it ... can I not read a graph or is the spec Axiom lists for the M22 incorrect? The spec says Freq Resp +/-3dB (Hz): 60 - 20kHz (base SPL 93). But in looking at the graph they’re down to about 86-87 db at 60Hz. It appears that the correct spec would be +/-3dB (Hz): 75 - 20kHz. What gives?

First off the +/- 3DB means the speaker is within spec as it allows for a 6DB swing.

I'd say 60HZ would be a tad low for all but the M22s. If this were my system I would try a 100HZ crossover. With you liking what you hear when using a lower crossover could mean that the sub you're using is even less capable to reproduce lows than the M22s.

An upgraded sub might do your system wonders.

Cork, just one small thing to add: The FR of a speaker often extends lower in a room (because of natural reinforcement from walls and floor) than an anechoic response on a graph.

yep, that is why I always look at the "in room" spec.

Hi Cork,

As Mark has pointed out, the anechoic curves are somewhat misleading in terms of useful audible bass output in a room, which always extends lower because of boundary reinforcement (walls and floor of the room).

The M22s have useful output to 40 Hz--that's the bottom string on an electric or acoustic bass. (If you want to test that, turn off your sub and play some rock/pop or jazz recordings and listen to the bass.) You'll definitely hear the 40-Hz low string, but it won't be nearly as loud as you'd get from, say, an M60 or M80 floostanding tower run full-range. Or from a good subwoofer married to the M22. With a good sub and the M22s, the best default crossover frequency is usually 80 Hz, but feel free to experiment.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks for the replies everyone.

My take-aways are:

- Get a real sub (I bought my son a Hsu; he goes to college in a few months. It'll never fit in his dorm. Heh.
- I'm not hurting any of the Axioms with the 60 Hz crossover. but may be losing audio quality.
- I *can't* read a graph. (So that switch from Nuclear Engineering to Computer Science all those years ago was best for all concerned.)

Alan:

I play (poorly!) a 5-String Electric Bass that are very common now. Normal tuning is B E A D G.

The open string 'B0' note of the fattest string on this instrument is 30.85 HZ.

That note is not often played; however, the 5-String Bass can reach way down there...

TAM

Cool, I was totally going to ask that question.

Cork, I'm in agreement with Rick's comment that your experience appears to indicate that your sub isn't as good as it could be. There's no question that the M22s have strong bass output to below 60Hz(the anechoic chamber result isn't accurate below about 90Hz because the wedges aren't big enough), but a good sub should be even better around 60-80Hz. The Audyssey calibration measurements on my M22s resulted in a 60Hz setting, indicating that the response was strong enough there to justify that crossover setting. Nevertheless, I wanted my EP500 to handle more of the bass load and take it off the M22s, so I manually reset it at 80Hz. Generally, I'd suggest setting the crossover as high as possible with a good sub, regardless of the bass extension capability of the mains, as long as it's not high enough to make the sub easily localizable.

Thanks John (and Rick and Alan). I knew the sub was low end, but had convinced myself that it was good enough for my mostly music application. Also, in this room's configuration, the only easy place the sub can go is right next to my listening chair, so I wanted to de-emphasize the sub output anyway; but now I think I understimated the loss of low-end, even for music. I could also put the sub under my desk. Not ideal, but I'm short, so I can probably get away with it. Anyway, I've definitely added a sub upgrade to the planned purchase list, and I'll play with the location. Thanks again.

Hi,

I didn't know 5-string electric basses existed; interesting. All the ones I've seen have four strings. Kind of similar to the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand piano, which adds extra keys in the lower bass (all black, to differentiate them), the lowest of which has a fundamental around 16 Hz.

The bottom key on a conventional grand piano is at 28 Hz.

The Bosendorfer Imperial is seldom used in concert or on recordings and the extra bass keys are seldom played. I have only one recording on which the Bosendorfer's extra bass notes are used. They are impressive.

Regards,
Alan

For those who might be interested, the recording to which I referred is still in print. It's "Water Music of the Impressionists", played by Carol Rosenberger on the Bosendorfer Imperial Concert Grand. I first bought it on vinyl (!). The selections are all solo water-themed piano works by Ravel, Debussy and others. One track, "The Sunken Cathedral", uses the extra bass keys very effectively. Highly recommended on CD or vinyl.

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Music-Of-The...3606&sr=1-5

Alan

I love piano music. Here's a youtube video of one of the songs off of that album.

About 5 string bass. I remember those back when I was a teen in the 1960-70 era.

Here are some pics of my Dean Edge Improve 5. Quite a nice instrument that was one of Dean's earlier models that was handmade in Europe. It is long out of production & has escalated in price if you can find one. It is quite a heavy beast but it does sound good - occasionally, ha!

I wish that I could do it justice, but I started playing too late in life; however, I do use it on our old farts' garage band every week...







TAM

very nice

I've never had the chance to play a 5-string. I always assumed that the extra string was on top, not on bottom. That's really interesting. So, what's the story on a 6-string? One extra on bottom and one extra on top?

(You can tell I'm a product of the 70s, can't you? If God had meant for basses to have more than 4 strings...)

6 string I believe is what you describe.

The problem with adding more strings (I believe that there are some 8-strings around) is that the fretboard becomes so wide (fat?) that it becomes difficult to play unless you have mutant fingers.

Not only that, the instrument begins to look quite homely & ungainly beyond 5 strings IMHO...

TAM

Gene Simmons would be proud!

I think the 8 strings are like 12 string guitars--strings an octave apart, set up like a 4 string.

Ken, I believe that you are correct; however, 6 strings IMHO are quite ungainly looking.

He is a good example of one. Very fat looking:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/esp-ltd-b-206sm-6-string-bass/513745000954000

TAM

Yeah, a bit absurd.

All I can think of is "Quahogs Anyone" when I see a bass quitar.