Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500

Posted by: mrihar

Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 09:52 AM

Hi,
I have an Denon x4000 receiver and I just received my Epic 80-500 speakers. There was a problem with the EP500 sub so I'm being sent a replacement EP 500 amplifier which should arrive this week. In the mean time I'm without LFE output.

I have a concern. I was expecting a more robust mid to low range punch from the M80s. I've also observed that the sound level doesn't pick up until I hit the -15 - 0 dB range. Could the Denon receiver be underpowered? Will the sub, once I recieve it, fill in the mid -> low range as I had expected from the m80s alone? I have to say I'm a little underwhelmed at present.
Would a separate amplifier make a noticeable improvement to mid-low end punch and overall volume?
Posted by: alan

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 10:27 AM

Hello mrihar,

The M80s normally have deep, extended bass output (not fat and boomy, but natural and uncolored), so something is wrong. Check your low-frequency crossover settings (bass management) in the AV receiver to make sure you have the M80s set on Full Range or "Large". If you were using the HEP500 sub previously, you may have set the M80s to "Small" with a crossover at 60 or 80 Hz, which is what we normally advise.

Regards,
Posted by: alan

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 10:47 AM

Further to my reply, if you had left the bass management of the Denon set on Small for the M80s, and forgotten to reset it after the ep500 was removed, the M80s would sound thin and lacking deep bass. The sound would likely be perceived as underpowered because deep bass certainly adds to the sense of power and loudness in sound quality.
There are other factors that might also contribute to your problem, but first check the bass management and report back.
Posted by: TroyD

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 11:33 AM

I had that AMP a month ago and have the M80's.
I think as Alan said , if you ran Audessy it is set for 60hrz crossover and LFE.
I would check the settings and set to Mains and remove the LFE.
Also, I too notice even when I did the Audessy setup, that dial I had to crank it up to get any volume going -15 -10 db and when watching a movie about 0db or +5.

if you go into the setting on the levels for individual speakers you will probably find they are all set to -15 or lower.

I boosted these up about 5 to 10 db closer to zero then when I turned up the amp at about -20 things started to happen and at -10 it was quite sufficient.

By contrast, I ended up getting a HK3490 as right now I only have the two M80's and subs while my room is being built. I turn this up the other night listening to music and at 0 bd on the dial, listening to Luke Bryan song then one that goes boom boom ( sorry just recently started to listen to counrty ) there was extreme air movement in my living room
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 11:46 AM

Thanks to both of you for the replies. I'm pretty sure thes speakers are set to large but I'll take another look to make sure. I'll also look for those other settings and report back.

Thanks very much.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 12:02 PM

Another thing to check is that the "straps" that electrically pair the binding posts in the back are connected and snug. Sometimes they come loose in shipping.

Of course, this makes me wonder if the M80s still have two separate sets of binding posts? It seems familiar that I read that the newer speakers ship with one set of posts now....
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 12:49 PM

I think the biwire terminals are optional, now, Mark.
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 01:27 PM

Looks like the bass management has the M80s set to Large and the Subwoofer mode set to LFE + Main (The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer). It's strange that I can change the subwoofer setting when the output is disabled.
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 02:28 PM

Hi Alan,
Is there anything else I should set if the M80s are set to large already?
Posted by: JBG

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 02:42 PM

In the settings.. if you removed the sub temporary, I would remove it in your avr setting's to subwoofer = none, make sure you undo this when the sub is placed back in your system
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 02:57 PM

I'd also disable audyssey for the time being to eliminate variables.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 03:00 PM

Agreed, to all of the above.
LFE should only be going to the mains and all the calculations Audyssey did would be based on having a sub in play, so I'd just turn it off or run it again without the sub.
Posted by: TroyD

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 04:36 PM

set it to Main. I think there are three options Main, Main + LFE or LFE. No sub = no LFE.

the I know with Main+LFE it still sends full signal to the MAin, but as mentioned above witht he Audessy settings it maybe tapering off the bottom end and smoothing out the response, specially as mention above , where it was set thinking it has a sub. I would turn off LFE and rerun Audessy or disable it. Also, check to see if that dolby sound or something like that is disabled.
Posted by: alan

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 05:19 PM

Check to see if you got the standard M80s with one set of speaker terminals on the back of each speaker, or if you went for the bi-wire version, with two pairs of speaker terminals connected by gold straps on each speaker. If the latter, make sure the straps are tight under the terminals and that the woofers are working. Set the receiver to the Stereo mode.
As troyd pointed out, if you're using Audyssey, up the front left and right levels to 0 dB in the menu.
Next, how big a room do you have? Length, width, height? If it's a giant room, you made need the subwoofer to get powerful bass. In a very large room, the M80s may need subwoofer assistance.

You may have placed the speakers (or your listening seat) in an area of bass cancellation. Just moving the speakers or your listening chair a foot or two may make all the difference. The closer you move the M80s to a rear wall, the greater the bass output; the farther out from the wall, the less the bass output.
Have you touched 9-volt battery terminals to the positive and negative speaker leads for each speaker to make sure the woofers on each M80 are in fact working? When you touch the positive and negative terminals to the battery, there should be a click and the woofer cone(s) will move inward or outward. You should see them move. This won't harm the speakers.
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 07:26 PM

Hi,
Yes I have standard M80s. The subs seem to be working. I mean I get some base response through Dolby Digital 5.1 sound tracks in movies. Just when playing Moby Dick (Led Zepplin) for instance I don't seem to feel any air pressure from the drums and very little from the base guitar. If I place my hand over any of the speaker vents there's not enough pressure differential to move a piece of paper. I'm a little confused. I've checked and double checked all the Denon settings. I've disabled Audessy which should eliminate that as a problem. Maybe I'm expecting too much? It just seems like the treble is overwhelming any low end response.



I dunno. Any last ideas?
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 07:29 PM

My room is very long. Maybe 40 ft long and about 15ft wide. Its split between a sunken living room with 10ft ceilings and the kitchen, area with 8 ft ceilings.

I should have my new EP500 amplifier here on thursday. I'll see if that changes things at all.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 08:09 PM

Older recording sometimes just plain don't have a lot of bass. I haven't heard that particular one, but if you have something a bit newer that's known bass heavy (NIN - The Downward Spiral, Sting - Brand New Day or Mercury Rising, for example), try that.
Posted by: TroyD

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 08:18 PM

try Aylanis myles Love Is if you want go kik a$$ bass
Posted by: TroyD

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/03/13 08:20 PM

Also, Daniel Adair of Nickleback is heavy on the foot actually Mutt Lange is known for producing bass try many Def Leppard or Beautiful Canadian girl Shania Twains recordings. They will let you know if the bass is a thumpin
Posted by: TroyD

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/06/13 08:20 AM

Mrihar

how are they working for you now ?
Posted by: mrihar

Re: Denon X4000 and Epic 80 - 500 - 12/07/13 08:07 PM

Excellent. I tweaked all the settings. Also have my sub now which makes a big difference.

thanks everyone.