Hi,
I'm new on the forum. Plan is to start building a 5.1 system. I started seaching for a pair of good floorstanding speaker. I live in canada near ottawa. My receiver is a denon x3000. (105 w x7). So far I 've started looking on forum, pro review ect. So far I've auditionned PSB XT2 & Paradigm monitor 11 unfortunately from different store. I prefered the PSB xt2. And this week-end I will try again in another store the Monitor Audio Silver 6. And there is axiom ( like m60). We can try them but ok if I don't like rhem we talk around 90-100$ to ship them back plus the troubke to do it.

Pro review seem good in general for axiom. But on forum it seem to be 50/50. Some People that really like them ( say that they worth speaker x2 the price) and other that say they are too bright(don't laught :-) but i' m not quite sure what it mean). And that also overall quality is cheap for the price. There is probably exageration from both camp....

In all case we talk about spending between 1200-1500$ Can+taxes. To be fair with all these 4 brands I think, I will improve the sound quality I have with my tv . But I thought it will have been easy but to be honest I started being scare with axiom because of the so so review especially. But again other person say they are in general good bang for the buck...I'm also open at suggestion.

Anyway help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

storm:

Axiom has a myriad of highly satisfied, longstanding customers who enjoy the accurate, uncoloured sound of their speakers. They have been producing quality speakers that are fully competitive at their price point for 35 years - so they must be doing something right.

If you want to read some recent reviews of current versions of Axiom speakers at a really credible website that is a cut above the others out there, have a look here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/h...tion-event.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...html#post940625

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...al-speaker.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...ker-review.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...tem-review.html

Based on those current articles, they clearly demonstrate what Axiom is presently achieving wrt fine sound reproduction. Therefore, I think that you can largely disregard the juvenile negativity that has been regurgitated in vast quantities by very few individuals who seem to have an agenda & therefore have absolutely no credibility. I have 3 complete sets of Axioms comprising of 13 speakers throughout my house of which 4 are subs. If they are as bad as some of the children say, I certainly wouldn't keep purchasing them.

As for personal listening preference, only you can decide on whether Axioms (or any other brands) are for you. Nobody else can make that choice for you & above all, resist the requirement to have 'peer approval' (that seems to be so prevalent out there these days).

You have the advantage of living somewhat near the Axiom Factory at Dwight, ON. I highly recommend that you take a day to go there, take a tour of the plant (been there - fascinating), meet the good folks & demo some of their fine gear in their listening room. It's a great way to spend a day in a nice part of the world.

Good luck in your quest...

TAM

I understand your position as I was in the similar boat in the past year.

I wanted to get a better set of speakers to listen to music. I had heard all the same bad vibes from others with that 'they are too bright' to 'lifeless sounding'. I did my trek out to multiple stores to audition different brands from B&W, Paradyme, PSB & Totem. Each sounded good but it's very hard to really tell what you have in a store listening with an Amp that is not yours, with a room that is not yours to be able to tell if what you hear there is going to be remotely like the sound that you are going to get when you splash down the money and take them home. So I asked 3 different stores if they have a loaner set that I can try. I got 2 NO CHANCE and an offer of 20% restocking fee.

I heard of the Axiom offer and jumped at it. It did take a week longer than I would have liked to get my speakers in. I went with a set from the B-Stock room as I care more about how they sound than how they look. (BTW, I couldn't find the flaw, even after a few hours looking).

The set of M80 speakers blew me away. They were by far miles better than everything else that I had heard for the same cost. I would even hazard to say they blew away the Paradyme speakers costing 3x the price (list).

Then I hit the underlying truth about the Axiom speakers They play what is really there. I did end up going back to one of the hoyty-toyty stores to play a few CD's just to see. If you have a good recording, it will sound awesome. If it is a bad recording, it will sound awful.

The dynamic range and detail is spectacular. I have never truly appreciated some of the songs that I have until I got these speakers. You need to give yourself a good 2-3 weeks of listening to multiple albums several times to really get a feel. There were some tracks that I loved before that I now don't. I know that is't just a bad recording or mix. They sound empty, or hollow. But if I hook back up my older speakers, I now know what music can sound like and they don't sound much better either. I have moved on.

I also did end up sending back the M80 to upgrade to the much larger LFR1100, but in hind sight, I would have still been very happy with the M80's I had and spent the saved money on other items.

Storm266

Welcome!

I would say you are on the right track with auditioning as many speakers as you can in specialist stores. You are right. Online info in most cases is completely hyperbolized in both directions. Discount virtually everything you read online. I would say the vast majority of people have only experienced a couple of brands or types of speakers (most likely not set up properly). An in home Axiom audition is a possibility if you request on the forum here too.

Listen to speakers above your budget as well. You will have a wow moment that awakens you to what sound can be!

Then you will be equipped to make the best decision for yourself with intel you gain by experience.

Plus, its fun to shop for fun things.

The trip to Dwight would be worth every penny. I'd second the idea.

For what its worth I'm a very satisfied owner. All of the Axiom products I've heard to date sound exceptional, look great (I thought my towers were shipped real wood by mistake) and the service I've always received before, during and after a purchase has been top notch.

Welcome, Storm. I can mostly only echo what others have said: Axioms are great, accurate speakers and an excellent value. Much of the "negativity" you read about on forums are the same couple of people who feel that they have an axe to grind and shout bad stuff in every forum, and some others who have never heard Axioms (literally!) but give their impressions based on reading stuff from those other few people. Also, garbage in- garbage out. Axioms are revealing and will reward you with good recordings, but show the flaws of bad mastering too. Finally, Axioms service IS top-rate!

What I can add to the other posts is this: The best place to listen to speakers is in YOUR room, in YOUR speaker positions, listening to the music YOU like. It's near impossible to do that with a brick-and-mortar store. Someone (Jack?) once said that if you look at the cost of shipping them back as just a very low "rental fee" to have world-class speakers in your home for a month, it's a bargain. And really, very few people ever want to return them so the chances of that are low.

Also, in being fair, the other speakers that you're listening to are also good speakers (from manufacturers who largely look to produce accurate speakers over manufacturers who produce colored speakers. i.e., speakers with a "certain sound"). I don't think you would go wrong with the other choices, but I do think that Axioms' direct-to-consumer business model will give you a better value than the other brands, where each distributor and seller along the way jack up the final price to make their profits.

Again, welcome!

Tell us a bit about your room and the music / movies that you like!

Hi Storm. I'll add my voice to those suggesting a drive to Dwight to listen to Axiom's full line.

Unlike greater than 90% of dealers, they have a proper setup for direct a/b comparisons of speakers that are properly positioned in a room and level matched.

As for opinions, yes, toss out those at the extreme ends. The best review I ever saw was from someone who owned a pair of Paradigm Signature 8's. Were the M80s as good as the S8? No. But, the had the same family of sound: neutral, open ... for the money spent he was thrilled to get a sound close to his S8 and thought they were a very good value for the money. Needless to say, he kept them.

The post is somewhere in the Axiom gallery. I don't know if you can find it using search though.

Edit: I tried searching the Gallery section, but kept getting a database error. I did a quick browse but could not find the original post.

On the upside, I did find that picture of Lampshade's wife holding the pink M3's.

Well I would like first thanks you all for your help, tips and recommandation and for that so nice welcome in this forum.

Tam: good review you have added and also i will consider to go at their factory. It's still a good trip but i'm sure I won't regret it. Don't worry I'm not looking for global peer approval. Whatever I would buy: ferrari, porsche, acura or just a yaris there will always be person that like them and some that don't. But in others hand having some global impression and experience from person that have tried a product can help especially with the fact that right now we aren't comparing apple with apple when like some others people said the audition I had : it's not with my amp and neither my room right. In an ideal world i would have in my house the 4 pairs and try them all (i'm dreaming) :-). But thanks for all your recommandation.

Matt : nice experience your shared. Thanks. Question: when you say bad recording will produce awfull sound. I'm worry a bit... Usage will be 50-50 movie and music. Movies I like. Saving private ryan, black hawk down, LOTR, start wars, matrix,
Music : metallica, megadeth, ironmaiden, movies soundtrack, relaxing music( from cable alternative music like half moon run. I have couple cd, a lot of mp3 and aac( apple) song. I guess that Mp3 and acc is what you will qualifer of bad recording Matt? Is it really that bad? I will not mind buying b stock in good condition there isnot that much m60. My wife accepted the fact that we will have speakers but they need to be black:-).

Serenity : you are right.n it make sens most people will probably not professionally test and compare10 different set of the same categorie but they will make comments...

MarkSJohnson: like Matt you mention the fact that good recording will be rewarding in others hand bad recording will hit me:-). You asked me also what are my preference in term of movie and music. Check my comments/question to matt above. Abput the room.: leaving room is around 17'x 14' around:250 sqfeet. I will move next year in a bigger house wherre leaving room and entire 1st floor is more open space. Butthe area will be around 20x 16 and 330 sq feet.

Thanks also to have said good word on the paradigm and psb. It's honest. i teally liked the psb xt2. Better then paradigm to my personnel taste but not the same amp, not the same room, not the same music.
--------------------------
For sure all your comments it increase a bit the confidence going foward with at leatst a trial. i agree that is the best way to try. At home. Like i said eaŕier ideally i would have all othe rhp with me to compare. I must say Mark I really liked your comparaison about considering axiom trial to like a rental.

Also we are dec 13th. Do you know if from and axiom trial. do you think it'sa good idea to wait on dec 26th? Is there any sales normally on the boxing day?
Right now i was going to look at black factory M60 at 1313$.

Another point : in term of placement I won't be able to place them 6' from the wall maybe 12-18 inch max. Do you think it will be a problem.

So i think i covered majority of the point thanks again everyone. Nice forum and very nice people.


Thanks

Simon

I'm not Matt, but I thought I'd share my own experience on this point. You'll recognize bad recordings, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you won't be able to listen them. It's true that you'll keep wanting to find the better recordings, and it's sad when you like a song but find the sound quality lacking, but in my own experience it's a reaction that mellows with time. I listen to a lot of music that doesn't have ideal fidelity, but I still enjoy it.

Movies have a better ratio of good to bad recordings, especially on Blu-ray. You'll find a LOT of reasons to smile when it comes to movies and even modern TV shows. I've been re-watching Breaking Bad, and the sound still impresses me just as much as the cinematography. Besides AMC, HBO has historically been very sound-oriented with their TV shows as well. Band of Brothers is another one of those series to get on Blu-ray if you want demo material. As far as movies, out of the ones you mentioned, Saving Private Ryan is probably my favorite sound-wise. So intense. You'll have a lot of fun.

I should mention that I have LFR1100s, not M60s, but I did own M80s before, and they made me very happy. I imagine with the generational changes that the current M60 is a more well-rounded speaker than the M80s I owned.

To elaborate a bit - Axiom speakers are brutally accurate; therefore they produce faithfully what is recorded.

Poor recordings (there are a lot of them out there - excessively loud, no dynamic range, compressed) will sound, well, poor.

In contrast, fine recordings will excel & will come across wonderfully.

There are a lot of my older CDs (I have some from the infancy of the CD) that I don't listen to anymore because they just are not up to the high sound quality of the likes of Eric Clapton whose works over the past 10 years have been superbly recorded. His older stuff is not nearly as good IMO & it languishes in the drawer.

I am a big fan of SACDs, not because of the medium per se, but due to the fact that much more care has been taken to mix the recordings properly for this supposedly 'audiophile' segment. Most really sound fabulous, although some better than others...

TAM

Poor is a rather strong term. "Not as good as other albums."

To make comparison by some of the stuff you referenced, you'll hear amazing stuff with, say Cryptic Writings, but Ride the Lightning (assuming you don't have a remastered version) won't sound as good--and by as good, I mean the soundstage won't be as wide, it will be harder to place the instruments in space, etc.

when one isn't sure about the quality of a recording,
just increase the volume a Db or two above the recording's
"live" reproduction level.

any distortion will show up very easily, and that will tell you
it's the recording and not the audio system that's at fault.
of course, the system first has to be able to play cleanly at that reference (live) level.

hope this helps. :-)

I would kind of lean in Ken's direction.

Maybe I'm just fortunate to not have a lot of crappy recordings/masterings. but I think it's not that the poorly mastered stuff sounds awful as much as it just really pales in comparison to the well-recorded stuff.... which knocks your socks off and leaves you craving more!

I agree with you and Ken, Mark. I actually have two bonus tracks on a Jethro Tull disk that are so badly recorded you can't listen to them on a good system, but those are the only two I've come across.

Yes comes to mind as a group I really like that fall in the 'just OK' category. I find myself wishing they had done a better job, but I still listen because its great music.

On the other hand stuff by SRV, Dire Straits, Hiromi Uehara Clapton and many , many others are such a joy to listen to an a good system.

Ok thanks thanks for your input. Few point I would still like to have comments on please:


Mp3/acc/cd & ps3 : some of view pointed out that axiom can let say hilight weak recording and improve sound of good recording. So what do you think about the fact that my music is currently mainly on mp3 and acc(apple format) song? Would it be terrible? I hope it's going to be better than a bose system at 300$..... What about the sound of ps3 for gaming? What about the sound of cable continu music channel?


Axiom and boxing day : do you think it'sa good idea to wait on dec 26th? Is there any sales normally on the boxing day?
Right now i was going to look at black factory M60 at 1313$.

Hp placement : in term of placement I won't be able to place them 6' from the wall maybe 12-18 inch max. Do you think it will be a problem.

Thanks again.

Just looking through this thread so i will add some thoughts.
And damn, i can sometimes add ALOT OF thoughts.


I don't know about improving sound quality. The quality of sound from really good speakers is evident for sure. Really crappy recordings, let's say like a 128 kbps mp3, is VERY evident compared to a 320 kbps mp3 with a good quality sound system.



Depends on the bitrate to a large extent. I have mp3s in 192 up to 320 with most in FLAC format (non lossy i know so not a direct apples to apples comparison). However, when using my Sonos system, i cannot tell the difference between a 320 kbps mp3 and the cd original with my Axiom speakers.
I haven't tried Apple's lossy aac format, so perhaps some Appleseeds here on the forums have more to add in that regard.



Have no doubt that an Axiom system will sound better than just about any $300 surround setup. Bose makes a lot of bassy sounding speakers IMO. That isn't sound accuracy, but it does lure in a lot of people who think that sounds really "full" and hence end up buying Bose.


The sound we get from our digital signal satellite music feed is pretty good. Ultimately here as most have already stated, the source of the signal, the source of the music and quality of that source is the real limitation in the quality of sound that you hear. If the digital signal music is low quality, it will sound low quality compared to say a CD equivalent source.


Going out on a limb here, my memory may be fuzzy, but i don't recall Axiom ever having a Boxing Day massive sale like some box store retailers.


Another option to consider, if budget is a huge concern, is to try and buy used speakers. Axiom has this on the site, but you can also find options at Audiogon and Canuck Audiomart.


Generally, no.
Most people don't have rooms with enough space to place a dimensionally perfect speaker setup. Heck most people don't even agree on what a dimensionally perfect setup is, though there is the concept of a "golden ratio" (e.g. http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php) . The closer the speakers are to walls, the more bass response you may get, but this is something every person has to play around with in their own space. Personally my M60s are about 10 inches from the back wall and i think it sounds just fine.

<Braindead>

Perfect condition for drinking coffee (or beer if you're into that sort of thing at 7:30am on a Sunday) and listening to music. Not so good for posting.

Glad that we didn't scare you off with our barrage of thoughts.

To answer your questions, the quality of recording can fall into two parts. The original masters and the medium it's recorded on.

When I talk about the masters, the best example that I have is my old Rolling Stones hot Rocks CD. I have one of the original CD's from the late 90's. On my speakers, the best that I could describe it as sounding hollow, or lifeless, even tinny. You need to crank up the bass and turn down the treble and then it sounds almost right but not quite. On an ipod with earphones, it sounds fine.

Compared to all my Eric Claption CD's, they sound like Eric is actually sitting in the room with you and you feel the muisc all around you. That I consider to be a great master recording. Now, some recordings are just the way that they are. My Forgotten Rebels albums you just play loud and they don't have any dynamic range but then again, I don't think they were ever meant to.

Then you have the mp3 issue.. you will be hard pressed to get a 64kbs mp3 to sound good. I have heard some 128 that did sound reasonable, but the fact is that mp3 is lossy and when you loose something it's not the same as the original.

as has been said here before. Axiom speakers are very revealing, and reproduce the sound they are given very well. Give them a good recording and they will reproduce the wonderful sound with crystal clarity. Give them a sub par recording, and it will give you sub par right in your face.

When it comes to movies. I have yet to find a movie that I wanted to watch that didn't spend the money in making the soundtrack match the calibre of what was on the screen. I think that they seem to go quite well hand in hand. Now if you are watching a movie from a VHS tape, then you will be very disappointed. I mainly watch Bluray now and the DTS sound is far better than most and CD. Likewise, DVD movies have an audio track that has far more S/N ratio than a CD can offer and I have yet to find a movie that my speaker choice made me cringe.

Speaker placement can play a roll in what you hear. So can furniture and other acoustic modifiers. You can have the best sounding speakers in the world, and put them is an acoustically challenged room and they won't sound as good as they could.

You have to end up making a choice as to what you consider good enough for the time, money and effort that you are willing to put in. I am sure that there a many speaker options better than what I have, and likewise, I know I would need to spend thousands more to get them. But I also know that the increased level on enjoyment that I would get from doing that would never justify the cost involved. it comes down to a personal choice as to what is good enough for you.

I listened to the Studio line from Paradigm and didn't bother listening to anything above them as I knew I could never justify the cost of the speaker to the sound improvement they might offer and the level of other kit that would be required to make them sound their best.

Chessroo : tahnks a lot. I'm like you I can have sometimes a lots of thought.

By the way. Fyi info in general between AAC(MP4) and mp3. it for the same bit rate AAC will have a better qaulity in general. Anyway I was just asking in general. I guess I will see when I will try them:-).

Matt. Thanks also. No worry I don't even have a VHS. Right now I only watch Blueray on a PS3 and cable TV 1080i. And like I said most of my music is either AAC or Mp3 on my iphone or bose stereo speaker on my PC. Mainly AAC I would say for now. At the end of the day. With a pair of speaker like this M60 at around 1500$ and my denon 1000$ it. Buying couple CD of music that I really like. it's nothing and will worth I think every penny. At least I know if I take a 128kbps mp3 and I'm not happy. Well I know I should not jump right away to comclusion but give it a chance with couple CD ect...

For my room guys. There is not much I can do. I'm not in a closed room but more open space and furniture I can't really move anything.
Like you said Matt. Just because of that I won't probably get 100% of the HP capability. But this problem "the room" is constant. It's the same situation regardless if I take a pair of PSB, paradigm or axiom. It's just I try to know if it so much a big deal.

I think I will give them a chance to the M60.
Worst case scenario I will return them. But it's rare that We see and Axiom owner or former owner complain about it.

Storm. if you are looking at the M60, why not save yourself a few dollars and get the B-Stock pair for $1125 and i bet you will have a tough time trying to find where the flaw in the speaker is. Quite often it's under the front grill or on the back side of the speaker, and without spending a few hours searching you will never see it.

That will solve the discount question for boxing day sale as your getting them for less anyways.

I know it. It's just that I sucessfully convince my wife of having tower speaker in the leaving room. These are correct and I would have bought them. but she want black nothing else. I can't win all battle

But thanks for the recommandation.

It looks like Axiom is clearing stock out for the Xmas shutdown. In the start of the new year you probably will find that they have some more B stock coming in and can get a great deal. I know that the wife gave the go-ahead, but I would personally hold off for a few weeks. Give them a chance to put some more b-stock out there. There is always some blacks in the mix. Or convince your wife you really need the larger M80HP

^+1^

Hi guys,
i couldn't resist I just bought a pair of M60 from the factory outlet.
Can't wait to try them.

Thanks for your help and advice. I will let you know when i will receive them and start to try the.

Woo Hoo!

Time to go out and buy a good cloth and some extra windex so you can wipe the nose prints off your front window.

Cool storm.

Wow, ordered tuesday night and received them today (factory). So it was fast. Have diner with friend tonight but i will let you know how it goes sometimes in the week-end.

Crazy fast