Ok,
You have $12,000 to spend on speakers any brand
the needs are Front R/L, Centre, 4 Surrounds and Dual Subs
also, but not mandatory front heights

Future would be for or a 7.2.4 Atmos setup. but the In Ceiling speakers or are not currently needed. Not sure how Atmos is going to go or if Dolby PIIz or DTS:X is all I will do.

Wondering if 4 QS4's would work

I've used the QS4s in the past & QS8s (presently) in a medium size room. They work just fine for surround duties..

In real world listening, I didn't find any difference in the 2 models; however, if you have a large space to fill, then the QS8s would be more appropriate I would think as they can put out more SPL...

TAM

Yeh, I know for surround but, was wondering if for the Atmos Heights if they are preferred or if it's ceiling speakers that are needed for Atmos

Sorry, my 'speed reading' didn't work, ha!

I don't know about Atmos Heights/Ceiling Speakers & I'm presently not going there. 5.1(2) is enough for me...

TAM

yes, I not sure yet either.
I just need get my speakers bought over the next two years of what I want.
I have M80's now in Ver.3 and was going to go with Ver. 4 but now that Axiom has priced itself with the competition I am curious to see what maybe better at the same price.
Use to be there was a difference I could get a $1500 set of Axioms that performed as well as a $3000 pair of speakers. Now it's $2800 M80 HP which is just as equivalent as Paradigms Studio's 100 or Song Bird's or Totems. Just wondering if for a 7.2 system and you had $12K you want to spend what would you buy. could even consider +- $1000 if needed to get that good second sub.
I currently have a Anthem MCA50 and a MCA20. I have a Anthem AVM309 Which probably be upgraded to a AVM60 or D2v( or whatever the newer version will be in a few years.

I wouldnt muck around with and ID speakers at that price point. You are into the PMC 23, ATC 19, Tannoy Definition, Revel F208, Wharfedale Jade 7, etc price/performance realm. Kinda gets more about the looks over a certain price point. Gorgeous glorious looks. If you go this route count me as envious!

If performance is your goal I'd stick with a loaded Axiom system (since you already own some) with 2 SB13 ultras and treat the snot out of your room. Your room is far and away the biggest upgrade you can make in a given setup.

Send me the extra money! Lol.

P.S. Share pictures! Congrats.

Oh yeah.. PSB just overhauled the synchrony one tower in your price range... So yeah..... I hate you officially.

I like the Golden Ear Triton Two and the SuperCentre XL
the only issue is GoldenEar only seems to have direct radiating rear speakers. ;(
But I heard them a couple years ago and the bottom end is awesome

Yeh, but I will be upgrading the Axioms to HP. I need to hear the subs and these M80 v.3 first for music.
I would rather have 2.0 ch for music. However, someone mentioned I would find it better with two good subs and the M80's.


Yes, SVS subs are on the radar but, just the Plus my room is on 17 x 12 x 8 so two Ultras would really be over kill, not that two SVS Plus are much less.

Thankfully when I find a product that I really like & does the job to my satisfaction, I tend to hold on to it for a long time. I used my AX2s for 20 good years & still have them stored away.

A couple of years ago when I finally looked at modernizing my systems, after auditioning many different brands & models at different price points, I didn't find anything that stood out so much that I just had to have it. Axiom products filled the bill nicely & my house is now full of them.

From what I've seen there is nothing out there that makes me want to go elsewhere because it becomes a case of diminishing returns when the price increases to levels that I don't want to pay - even though I could afford to if I wanted to...

TAM

Finish weighs heavily on cost, so you might want to prioritize that first.

Now that I know your room size 2 SB2000s would even be enough. My room will be a little bigger than yours and I expect my 2 to still be more than enough. My old room was 12x17x8 and they were silly good. I wonder about the pluses but cant afford them till well after immersive upgrades.

I agree with TAM. Once you get stuff you like and your setup where its tuned properly you should resist the urge to start over. The merry go round will leave you broke long before being perfect!

Alternately, you can contact rives audio or the like and buy an acoustical analysis package. Then you can know without question when you are done you are really getting every drop out. Then you will have a real deal reference system. Lucky!

I would rather have two ch for music as wel and have been quite enthralled with M100's. I have 7.1, (4) QS8, ep150, vp150.

Did you see the qs4's locally on kijiji $75 (with a VP-50centre) ......if in good shape that's fair.....also v3 VP 180 at refurb store......but sounds like you maybe at a crossroads with your future home theatre decisions ......
This hobby is great.....but can /will drive u nuts at times ,as well.....
Maybe time to start demoing other speakers if your on the fence at all ( nothin worse than buyers remorse) there are others offering free in home trial as well ( just have to be careful of return shipping $)
before you make any large( $$$$) decisions
Best of luck Troy and keep us updated

yeh, I just want the final system be right. I was looking at Paradigm Studio 100' the cc690 and ADP came to 12K maybe pushing the limit.

Not really caring about finish a lot. Why ???? there in a darken room anyways. However, having the Main in a nice Cherry gloss would be nice. Thinking, maybe M80 HP in a Cherry veneer HG finish. Then the VP180 ,subs and rears can be the normal black, They can even be Factory Outlet. Would leave a few extra for subs ...JL E112 in dual would be nice.

Yes, that's another option just stay with the version 3 and build up from there. I want that new Anthem AVM60

Thinking if I forgo the sports car in a few years I can put a addition on the house make it a nice movie room 15 x 21. But , will see then.

TroyD, I wanted to comment on a point you made with Axiom pricing itself with the competition. I agree. I am in the same boat with you starting over and I am also doing a 7.2.4 with 4 in-ceiling speakers. A few years ago Axiom would have been my defacto choice however given the price increases I have expanded my search to a number of other companies out there some of which have already been mentioned.

As of now the best part about Axiom, in my opinion and ignoring their great customer service, is the custom finishes which is huge for WAF. If I do go back to Axiom then that would be the overriding factor. The custom paint match I did with my former surrounds was great.

Hi,
Yes I saw those qs and the VP50 but there too old. I see the VP180 and am thinking about it. Not, sure but I may take it as a temp situation as watching movies in stereo is getting to me. Volumn up , volumn down, volumn up and it goes in circles.
My problem is I really want to go somewhere within the next few years with this. Pretty sure I am grabbing that new AVM 60 in a few years. SO, I want the speakers done by then. What I need to decide at this point is the V4 worth the upgrade, or shall I say $2000 - $2500 worth. I will go to HP. Most of the other speaker lines are actually at this point , in this price range. I will want Veneer finish for sure for the Front L/R and in a HG finish. The rest I will have to get from the Factory outlet in black too. That said I spend that much wwwhynot look at Paradigm Studio's ( I guess Prestige now ) Salk, B&W, Monitor Audio Silver, etc. However, if I am going to upgrade a few grand more would going the extra $1000 for the next best line be worth that.

MrSpeed

Yes, before I wouldn't think twice or even look. I know Axiom has every right to price as they see fit and a decent margin of profit. I do realize they control there own driver quality etc. everything is built in house in Canada. However, a few years ago a set of M80 were like $1380. Paradigm Studio 60's $1999 besides the fact there was no comparison Axiom to me is the better speaker. But, when you went to the Studio 100 they were the better speaker. However, priced at $2995. Not $1600 better. Now if I want a HP80 it still $1000 less and maybe just maybe not $1000 better, but the finish is better so maybe that would tilt it a bit. However, if I get veneer finish in M80 it is closer to the same price. If I get a M100 then they are the same price.

Still thinking Axiom though still a good deal.
Seriously thinking M80 HP in Cherry Veneer HG with the VP180 or 160 and QS8's in black from factory outlet.
I am thinking of JL Audio F112 in dual. Found a site that sells them as liquidated products around $3000 ea. But, then again got to still wonder if that extra $2000 is worth it over say SVS Ultra subs.

I know I said my room was going to be 12 x 17 but am thinking in a few years I may just build on a addition and go 15x 23

The limiting factor will be your playback environment. The question of "is X worth $2000 more than Y" is no for most people. To really get that upper tier performance acoustics becomes very important. Acoustics not as in absorbers (which everyone assumes encompasses acoustics in a nutshell) but EVERYTHING sound based.

I'd suggest you first invest in research, and buy a solid resource book like this:

http://www.amazon.ca/Handbook-Sound-Studio-Construction-Recording/dp/007177274X

It will teach you everything you need to know and more in plain language. It covers everything from a sound reproduction focus. The title is misleading, it is not solely for recording booths at all. There is a chapter dedicated to home theater design and every other facet of construction (including acoustic assesment, treatment use and construction.)

It is not solely construction based either, they use the term construction loosely. I would term their use as "creating" more than "constructing." Many of the room plans and methods are based off any existing domestic space. This book would benefit anyone who is interested in the goals you are presenting. You would likely never have to build a bigger room (unless you want to fit more seats.)

Its $30 that stopped me from googling what to buy and what to do questions.... ending up in forums and reading 20 answers from opposing viewpoints. Most of whom do not have a clue of what they are talking about and regurgitate what they read in other posts. (Not here usually, before anyone gets upset.)

Awesome great thanks
$30 is better than spend an extra $2000 I may not need and also on room/addition costs.

I guess also, one has to think where does this stop. I just got the M80v3 a year ago, well actually a couple years ago lol wow.
I know listening in music in my current living room if the bottom end was just a little more thump to it. Also, just seems that the sound starts to distort. I know in Version 4 they say the bottom end is a bit more smoother and doesn't compress and easily. Crossover change, tweeter and the HP drivers.
but, I wonder really can I heard the difference in the upper end. I believe the tweeter is better at like 10k .... I'm not sure I can hear 10k sound lol.
This mids is where I find the sound starts to break down.

I wonder, it is better now that I have a Anthem AVM30 whereas last month I had a HK AVR340 as the pre/pro.
I wonder, also if I were to have a MRX510 or the new AVM60 and run ARC ( similar to Audessey ) to eq if it would help that.

I know room treatments will also help a lot.

Maybe I am looking way into this too much. The Anthem line when you run ARC it allows multiple settings. I could have say for music 2.2 and just dial down the subs just enough to give me that extra thump I want. Then when for movies just run it at the volume level ARC says.
I'm getting the subs anyways, maybe in the end the sound difference between the v4 and v3 will be moot.
I could put that extra money into sound treatments, and the better pre/pro Anthems D2v or newer model at the time.

That said with Atmos or DLPIIZ I may need to buy another couple of MCA30. But, then again, @$1500 x 2 plus and extra $1000 for ceiling speakers is it really going to be worth it.
I think not, I think the most I want is probably front heights. But, then again here we go $650 for two QS8's and I would require a MCA20 @ $1000 used. Are front Heights worth $2000 ????

It was easier 6 months ago, I was going to buy a used Porsche for my 55th lol then decided I'd get my theatre

Serenity ... Looks like a good book.

Amazon US had some secondary sellers shopping it for $4 plus shipping and I snagged one. The best price now may be $8 plus S/H, but still a bargain.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/007177274X/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Wow! Fantastic price for a truly useful book.

I hope you guys find it as useful as I do. I refer to it frequently when something has me stymied.

yes, I am going to order one also.

however ........ http://www.acoustics101.com/forward.asp

Good find. I remember reading through that also.

The book is basically perfectly purpose built though.... All you will ever need.

Troy,

Based on my brief time auditioning the new M2 computer speakers, given that they are the baby speakers in Axiom's lineup, there is absolutely no reason to upgrade to something more expensive for home theater/music use.

The Axiom v4 lineup should provide flawless playback of anything you throw at it. The room/setup is definitely the limiting factor. I am impressed with even the M2s performance, and could easily build a fantastic small room system around them with good subs.

I want to go back for another listen soon. They are nice speakers.

If you are planning to spend that much money I strongly suggest listening to as many speakers as you can. Focus on just getting your front speakers right now, to keep the auditions simple. Do the speakers image well? How is their off axis performance? Can they delineate the soundfield well (can you hear each instrument separately or do some get muddled together)? Are the speakers fatiguing? How is their transient response (how quickly the speakers stop playing a certain frequency, or do the speakers ring at certain frequencies)? How easy is it to drive the speakers with a reasonably priced amplifier or receiver? How do the speakers sound to you?

Some of these things are easier to discern with in home auditions. For example, it will not be easy to tell if a speaker is fatiguing in a 15 minute listening session. This will likely only be revealed after a couple hours of listening or more. Regardless, go to local shops to check out the bigger brands. Many internet direct companies offer free shipping (http://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/internet-direct-comparison ): Axiom, Aperion, SVS, XTZ, etc. Some even offer free shipping both ways. Take advantage of that. Last summer I was purchasing new speakers and I auditioned my top three choices in my house and chose the ones I liked. One of the pairs I had to pay for shipping, but I was okay with perhaps needing to spend around $100 total to audition them in my home. I was making a big investment buying the speakers, since I plan to continue filling out a 5.1 and then 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 system in the future. I would have auditioned more, if my wife wasn't having a baby just as I finished up the end of the one month trial.

Subwoofers are a bit easier. I don't think you necessarily need to demo them, or stick with the same brand as the speakers your end up buying. There is a wonderful resource that gives extremely thorough measurements to give you an idea how a subwoofer performs: http://www.data-bass.com/systems . Be sure to get two subwoofers so that you can get similar bass performance in each seat (http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf ).

It's good that you are also thinking about room treatments, since once you purchase the speakers, they will make the next biggest difference in what you hear. Again, I would be very careful just blindly buying a set of speakers others are suggesting. What each person finds pleasing in terms of sound is very personal and very room dependent. Good luck and have fun.

Hi all
Serenity :
Yes, I went the bookshelf Sub before. I had M&K MKII and I really, really think they are awesome for movies. Detail, clarity, imaging etc.
However, I really like my music subless. I like listening to concerts or just music at a above avg level. Not, meaning 90% volume.
I had this discussion for a long time with members on this forum .... cannot remember all but, Sirquack, MarkJ I think even Nick chimed in on the bookshelf vs Floor.

If I had two separate rooms, I would absolutely go bookshelf for movie and 2ch Floorstanding for music.

That said, I think I finally got my head around sirquack and Marks philosophy. With that the floorstanding M80 cut off at 80hz ....I'm just using them as above avg bookshelf speakers and when I play music, well my receiver is setup that it will play 2ch full range. when I select Blu-Ray for movie's it is setup to go 7.2 and cutoff on the front at 80hz.

Now, here's my issue with 2ch music is, I find the M80's just at a certain level start to work really hard. I guess this is the compression part .....Specially as I read and think I have this right. Axiom has two Woofers, two Mids and two tweeters, yet only a two way crossover. So basically, If I have this right it is at 160hz and 2.3hz.
That means 2.3k hz is going to the tweeters and everything in between 2.29k and 160 hz is going to the mid range, then everything below 160hz goes to the woofers.
Now with upper bass being around the 300hz, it's like at a higher volume the mids are working really hard and I think this is where most of that distortion seems to come from. Then. also the woofers are also at that point.

So, I was looking at the M100 as Andrew suggested, however a speaker for movies sticking out 3 ft into my room just doesn't cut it when the screen is three feet behind and the centre channel is also.

So, I am left with the M80's I bought them for a reason ...value being the biggest reason, but also they sound awesome for the level I watch movies at. G4anted they sound awesome for music too. I just want that little extra punch in the bass.

SO, that's why I was wondering if getting a DSP for the M80 and VP180 would help as the link to that page says and if it would improve the sound. However, I am not thinking put the money into M80HP and VP180HP. and just use them as a great bookshelf speaker.

As for subs, I am either going with the huge SVS Ultra or either Paradigm Studios ( I think they discontinued that line though ) or the JL Audio Fathom F112. I found a site that sells overstock electronics and these are listed there.

Also, if I do build the bigger addition I will upgrade for sure to HP or like I said, at the cost I am now looking at a few different brands. So, will look around and try out a few. SVS Ultra is also getting good reviews. However, I am thinking Axiom M80HP and maybe just go the Factory Outlet with the rest of the speakers.

One reason you might be missing the "punch" in the bass is if you currently have a subwoofer that isn't large enough to pressurize entire space that your room is open to. With the trend of having newer houses where the living rooms have vaulted ceilings and are open to many other rooms in the house it is possible to have enormous spaces to pressurize. We can only get bass that you can feel (if the source is calling for it), if the subwoofer(s) can pressurize the entire volume that your room is open to. How large is the volume of space including the room and any other rooms that are open to?

One other possible reason for the missing "punch" in the bass might be that as the volume gets further and further from 85dB (reference volume) our ability to hear bass gets worse and worse. Most people likely find it too loud to listen to their systems at 85 dB. I would guess that many likely listen at 60 or 65 dB. Audyssey Dynamic EQ is built into some receivers and can fix this issue.

Troy:

What kind of SPLs are you getting at your MPL when you are playing your music? How far back is your MPL from the M80s?

Perhaps you are just driving them to their limits at very high SPLs. Not to preach, but anything over 90 DBs will be eventually detrimental to one's hearing.

I find that 80 to 90 DBs (as measured with my RS SPL Meter) at my MLP (10' back) using M2s + a pair of EP400s is about all that I can handle these days unless I'm into the sauce, ha!

TAM

Hi Troy. I have a SVS SB13ultra providing the deep end for my LFR1100v4's. It's everything the reviews say it is.

I have no subs ATM.
Currently I sit about 12 ft away.
that's the thing even at normal moderate levels with Music I just feel missing that little more bottom end. Maybe, I can boost that bass a bit.
Currently , I have a AVM30 so no ARC ( Audessy )

When I have the subs they will more than be enough for the room. I am the biggest the room will be is 17 x 23 x 9. if I build on the addition. I have a rec room area now, currently my daughters entertainment area. She's off to university in two years, this was going to be gutted and I was going to build a movie room there. However, it is only 12 x 18. So a bit too small and being 12 x 18 x 8 not the ideal dimensions. Pretty sure the three subs I am looking into will be more than adequate.

The bottom end punch I am talking about is in 2 vh and music listening.
I am not sure the levels, obviously for movies I am louder than normal tv levels.
music well it is louder than movies levels. And occasionally I like to turn it up abit more, but that's rare

My plans are to run 7.2 not sure of the atmos or DPLz yet.
Pro/Pro will be Anthem AVM60. Currently I have AVM30 running with a MCA50.
I will be using a MCA50 for Centre and the four surrounds and a MCA20 for the front L/R.

Well, guess I am staying with the M80v3 's
I just bought the VP180v3
next up is a quad set of qs8s'

Good call! Your money can go a lot further this way. Be sure to post pics once you are all set up.

well, for now ....I was listening to some music vid's today and was watching the MJ This is It.

Put it on Smooth Criminal to show a friend how awesome this is. Well that blew up I only had them on a above avg volume. I think I was at -7.5 db and the woofers were over exerting.

They never did this before and I have had the volume to +5db.
They claim these speakers are good for 400watts. I may of been 100watts if that.

I am now not sure if these speakers are what I need. If they are breaking up at that lower volume. It wasn't loud enough we couldn't talk to each other, then I am thinking I am going to need to re-invest in a better product.

With my modest Denon AVR, I listen to music Videos/SACDs/CDs in my medium size room at about -20 DB. Over than & it just gets too loud - over 90 DBs at my MLP.

For movies I run it at -15 to -10 DBs because that is all that my hearing & my house can stand.

Something doesn't seem right with your gear, room or perhaps the source material. It is doubtful that it is the speakers alone that are the culprit.

Again, you should try to measure your SPL at your MPL to see exactly how much you are achieving. If you don't have a dedicated SPL Meter, there are apps for cell phones that will give you a good approximation of your SPLs. I've used both types & they work pretty well...

TAM

Well ... tried for two days to get logged on. This website keeps resetting my password like ever 45 days. It's almost like it locks me out also. I have to do the reset password still doesn't work. I go into my office and try it there on Monday and it lets me in. And no I know my password, it's my daughters middle name. Last time it was her first name. That worked for a month or two, then I cannot log on. Reset it a few times, then it takes. I go into the settings and change it and it works about 45 days it seems.

OK
So, this weekend I downloaded a SPL meter to my I phone calibrated -15 db on my pre/pro to 75dbl on the SPL Meter.

I listen to movies about the 75db - 80db. That's because probably I only have 2ch now. The VP180 is enroute hopefully today. So maybe it will be 70 - 75 db SPL

Music either DVD or CD I listen around 85db - 90db SPL

If I am in the mood and for the songs I really like I go to 90 - 95db on the spl meter
Now when I put in Michael Jackson This Is It for example.
Jam
Way You Make Me feel
Beat It

if I have the sound at 90dbl it is ok, the kik drum goes thumppp ... not as pronounced as I like but, it is there. I wish I could just boost this up like 3 db
If I turn it up on these songs to 95db - 98 db that kik is now Pfff . You can tell it is at it's limit.

Now these speakers are spose to be rated 400 watts. I am no where near 400 watts. I'm probably no where near even turned on.

I have a Anthem MCA50 with just two of the channels used 385w per channel this is.

I have a Anthem AVM30 Pre/Pro.

It looks like you listen at about the same levels that I and probably most people do. We need to know how far back your MLP is located from the M80s. If it is at the rear of your room, it takes a lot of power to attain those levels back there.

I guess that some M80 owners will have to help out here as I don't have those; however, I do know that using a sub or 2 will relieve the towers from the heaviest bass duties & clean up the sound plus will easily give you the level of bass sound that you want. Decent subs dialed in correctly will not sound boomy or flabby.

Of course, that does not tell us why your M80s/system are acting that way unless they are being driven to their limits to produce your desired SPLs at a long distance (if that is the case).

A long shot might be if that particular source material has a bunch of distortion embedded in it that only reveals itself at higher than normal levels.

Interesting condition...

TAM

I am 13ft away.
this is in my living room,
13.5 x 18. it is split entry so another 6ft. So, 13.5 x 24'

the speakers are about 9ft apart.

OK. 13' is not unreasonable.

I'm about 10' (M22s in a medium size room) to 11' (M2s in a large room) from my speakers & listen up to about 90 DBs without any problems - mind you both of these systems have 2 subs each.

My M3s (used as ambiance speakers) are in opposite corners 25' apart but they never protest either even at higher levels.

I'm out of ideas. Anyone??

TAM

Maybe one more thought.

Perhaps your MLP is in a bass null area (a very common problem) that is causing you to boost the SPL to levels that are perhaps a bit much.

Although experimenting with moving the MLP and/or speaker placement can be a PITA, who knows? Perhaps it might help to bring your bass up to a more satisfying level at lower overall volumes...

TAM

what is MLP ?
actually PITA ?
I guess I could spread the speakers apart more and try.
I canot move my seat closer as I got a 65" tv and I will soon be too close.

Main Listening Position - as used in some other audio forums.

I find moving anything of size & weight a PITA...

TAM

That's what I thought, but didn't get the actual Main Listening Position.
Just thought ok he means were my A** sits

well I got my .... Dust off the records email yesterday afternoon. That VP180 is on it's way and will be here tomorrow.

Yeah ....kinda ....as I am sitting in my seat I am looking at the stand and realize that thing is too big for my stand.
So, I guess I am going to be building a stand for my 65" and the VP.

have to figure out how how I am going to place the amp and receiver etc

I had to buy a whole new stand for my VP160 to replace my VP100, but it was well worth it...

TAM

Centre channel arrived today 3 days it took . Sounds awesome

Cool. I wish that my stuff would arrive that quickly...

TAM

But where are you located

Vancouver Island, so it is understandable. It's normally a week to 10 days to get here from Ontario.

I'm patient enough & frugal enough not to pay extra for faster shipping, ha!!

TAM