Ok, so if I decide to use subs for music. Is there any advantage other than volume between used the M60HP with subs and the M80HP with subs ?
I have M80v3 ... as you know I would rather listen to music without subs. I am trying to decide if I really need to go to the M80 HP or if I can just get the M60HP.
Curious to know if, Just wondering if the M60v4 HP will go lower than the M80v3

Not sure, but thinking I will not notice any different at all if I stay with my M80v3 and get dual subs and say the hell with up grading.

My son wants to buy my M80v3 so I am trying to decide if the upgrade or $2000 is worth it, I know in movies I will not notice the bass as Ian already mentioned that. The only difference I would see is in 2ch no sub. But, then Andrew mentioned I probably ain't going to still get the Uhmmph I want with music with the M80HP , that the M100 are what I probably want. Well, the room size and price level of the M100 are out of the question. So, I have four setups questions I need to figure out. I wish I had the $10,000 right now to get all these speakers and test them all out at one time.

SO my possiblilties are and thinking is
I do not need a VP180 HP a VP180v4 is all I need as for music I like 2 ch. and no subs. If watching movies well I will have subs turn on and that would be good enough.

1) Keep my v3 M80's and VP180 and just add the Subs.
2) M80v4 and VP180v4 and Subs
3) M60v4 HP with a VP160v4 and Subs
4) M80HP and VP180 with Subs

Mind you I would prefer no subs with music, but just need to know if I am going to get that extra bottom end in the M80HP for two channel. I don't go extremely loud with music, maybe I guess a bit above average. Whatever that can mean. I guess to say if I am watching a movie my Pro is at about -15db. with music maybe -10db to - 6db if in the mood. Other than that probably the same level -15db. Now, I am using a Anthem MCA50 385w per and Anthem AVM30 pre/pro if that helps figure something out. I used the sound meter and set the reference to 75db at -15db on the dial

and to make matters worse one step further. If I am using Subs 24/7.
What are the benefits of having M60's and two subs and a crossover set to 80hz.
than to have M22's and dual subs with the crossover set to 80hz ?

Both the M22 and M60 have the identical Tweeter and Mid ranges.
I just cannot grasp the concept of the extra size speakers in expense if I am not utilizing anything much below 80hz. I know it's a gradual roll off, but I don't think it is still rolling off at 60hz ?

I don't know why you have such a problem with using subs for music - you are losing out IMO. When properly implemented & dialed in, IMO there is no better way to get the full spectrum of the lower end. If they are not 'dialed in' properly, boominess or muddiness can/will occur or they can sound like that ugly flabby bass that car systems are so famous for.

As 'craigsub' has discovered in all of his sub testing, Axioms just sound plain good - 'musical' that many people talk about.

For my music only 2 CH system, my M2s plus a pair of EP-400s are just stunning & reach down to ~17 Hz in my room. I dialed in the subs' level by ear 2 years ago & haven't touched them since.

Audio bliss for me...

TAM

I don't know TAM, which really begs to differ why towers and a sub if I am going to be setting them to small and LFE.
As for me and 2ch music, I just really like that tight fast Thumppp sound as opposed to a Umphh sound with a sub.
I wish I could do a road trip and take my M80 and VP180 to Dwight ON and say setup all these and let me hear the diffeences.

I mean really if I got to use subs, then why not get the M22's and four subs ? I had the M22 and they play loud enough in a room than was 15 x 23 and 10' ceilings.

They say they stress out at higher volumes, but to what higher volume ? They have the same tweeter same woofers as the M60.

If really there is not much a improvement that warrantys spending $2400 more why not go back to the M22's and subs. I think M22's a VP160 and four SVS Ultra non ported with be bliss or 4 EP500's

Thanks for your input too

Wow, you have a ton of threads asking the same questions over and over again.

As 'craigsub' & I have both found out, Axiom subs 'Thumpp' & don't softly 'Umphh'. That's what makes them so 'musical' for want of a better term.

For music only in my fairly large area, I really like the 400s' 8" drivers with a potent 500 w/CH - they are so fast & articulate. Many out there will dispute the 'speed' of a sub driver, but I think that there is something to it. Unless you have a huge open area, 2 powerful subs (500, 600, or 800) should do the trick. Four would be nice & more costly of course.

Having said that, I am not using any 'LFE' settings as my Tube Amp has no digital skulduggery on board. The subs are driven from the Amps 'Speaker Out' Terminals to the subs' 'Hi Level Inputs' where my speaker wires are joined to feed the M2s. Levels are adjusted by ear to my preference which is not excessive.

For my HT duties in a different room, my 2 X EP-800s very nicely augment my M22V4s. With these beasts, I don't know if anything would be gained by going to Towers...

TAM

The so-called speed is what's perceived when there's a lack of distortion. I've heard the EP400 in my home and there's no audible distortion. Unfortunately I can't say the same about my EP600 v2. I am sure however the new line of Axiom sealed subs is distortion-free.

Troy Another trick you could try with your towers is the sub crawl,
Luckily with my M80s I managed to place them in a boost zone.

In my room I've only found 2 locations that aren't a null.
Even my corner was cancelling my subs??

I myself started with the M3, went up to the M22 both with an SVSPB1000. They were both fantastic. Then I got the VP160 the sound was so much fuller. I had to have the towers. To me the towers give a richer more emersive sound. Than did my bookshelves.

Doesn't your Anthem have variable crossovers?
My Audessey always sets my towers to full. And the bookshelves to 40. Which I usually raise my self.

No, there not all the same. And I am getting some informed answers here. Thank Exlabdriver, Brendo. MoJo and a couple others.
There are no store and Dwight On is 1800 miles away so, it is not like I can walk into a store and hear them all in different scenario's. I do not have $10,000 either to send off to have these all shipped so I can hear the difference and make an informed decision on my own. I have to rely on what others have and experience and pick brains of people who have more knowledge. I just spent $2000 for a set of M80v3, about a damn month before the M80v4 came out. Maybe I will buy a ticket on Powerball and become a billionaire and just order the whole line up. I got some information on Atmos, very helpful to the point I am not sure I need to go there. Thinking maybe just go with the wides and heights. So, that saving me money from upgrading the PrePro for now. Like I said, if I am going to be using a sub, why do I need M80v4 or even the HP line ? when M60's would do just as good a job. I hear the only reason for M80 is to go LOUDER and LOUDER I do not need. I gave an example of my listening levels.

PS I think I am the only Axiom owner in Nova Scotia so I cannot go and hear them at a persons house either

OK, So here's my view.

As in another post, someone mentioned the reason for the towers and subs in movies was basically bottom end up front stage.
Yet, Audessy or whatever you use, sets the cut off at 60 or 80hz.
Well, then I hear that colourization of the bass in the speakers interacts negatively on the mid-range and tweeters. So, now the tweeters have there own chamber and the mid-ranges have a bucket over them.
SO, then I hear that if the M22 are played to loud, they tend to distort etc breakup what ever. Well, if they are doing that , then seems to me that there identical tweeters and mid ranges, they'd do the same in the M60's.
So, if you have adequate subs, tuned in properly etc, does it not make better sense, to just remove the Woofers from the equation. Leave the mids and highs to the one speaker M22's and let the bottom end be dealt with by a speaker that is best designed for this the SUB. Seems to me you just need proper placement and tuned correctly and you should have great sound and normal listening levels.
I mean Ken Kreisel thinks this way. I mean I can speand $3400 on M80v4 HP plus as I am told still need subs $3000.
or I can spend $1000 on M22, plus $3000 on subs and have almost as good sound and my listening levels. That is what I am trying to find out?

Troy - Let's start with the Physics of a loud speaker, and what we are asking of it. We often see our hearing as being from 20-20,000 Hz. In reality, most of us hear little above anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 Hz. Of course, this has been blind tested. My last test showed about a 14,000 Hz "ceiling".

In terms of real speaker performance, we have 10 octaves that have the following spans from 1 to 10:

1: 16-32 Hz
2: 32-64 Hz
3. 64-128 Hz
4. 128-256 Hz
5. 256-512 Hz
6. 512-1024 Hz
7. 1024-2048 Hz
8. 2048-4096 Hz
9. 4096-8192 Hz
10. 8192-16384 Hz

Anything above or below those frequencies are typically irrelevant, but if a speaker can reproduce them cleanly, it would be considered a plus.

Next, let's look at the size of the wavelength at the deepest frequencies:

16 Hz: 70.625 feet
20 Hz: 56.5 feet
40 Hz: 28.25 feet
64: Hz: 16.75 feet

I stopped at 64 Hz because 16-64 Hz represents the two lowest octaves of our hearing range.

Now let's look at the amount of excursion based on frequency: Every time you halve the frequency, you need 4 times the excursion to achieve the same SPL.

For example, look at the 64 Hz bass tone - which is a 17.65 foot long wave length. If a driver requires 0.25 inch to achieve, say, 105 dB at 64 Hz, the same driver will require 4 inches for 105 dB at 16 Hz.

In my personal system, I am running a pair of LFR-1100's with an amp that can deliver 125 watts into EACH of the 6.5 inch HP woofers (it's a 375 wpc amp).

I still operate an EP-800 crossed at 40 Hz to the LFR-1100's, and the effect is not subtle. Not only does the bass hit much harder and deeper (it is essentially a 1.33 octave range), the subwoofer is taking the load off the main speakers, which allows them to be even more dynamic.

You have a tremendous system. Would you give up the 1.33 octaves that span from appx. 6600 Hz to 16,384 Hz? Looking at your system in a linear fashion during more demanding scenes, you currently have about a 40 Hz floor, giving up the 1.33 octaves below 40 Hz.

A single EP500, EP600 or EP800, properly dialed in, would make a huge improvement in your system. I would recommend a 60 Hz crossover, and let the subwoofer handle the 16-60 Hz material.

Thank you.

So my current system is M80v3 and a vp180v3. SO, you are saying stand pat and just get a couple good subs.?

Troy - If your son wants your speakers, and you want to sell them, that's cool. The "standing pat" is not necessarily a recommendation, it was my way of telling you the first path to improvement would be the subs - either a pair of EP500's or something like the EP800.

Crossed at 60 Hz, you won't be able to localize an EP800, but a pair of EP500's would also be excellent, and not much more $$$.

If you sell your current system, my recommendation is contacting Debbie and getting the best price possible for a pair of M80's, a VP180 and either a pair of EP500's or a single EP800.

The M80's will deliver the dynamics you want with the dual mids/tweeters matching with the same line up in the VP180.

The subs handling the bass from 16 to 60 Hz (and keep in mind, it's not a brick wall - at 60 Hz, the M80's will be "down 3 dB", which is half the power - and roll off at 12 dB per octave below that), properly dialed in, will be noticeable on a lot of music.

Think of it as a modular "superspeaker" with a powered 12 inch driver handling the deepest bass.

My M22s (both V3s & V4s) have never 'broken up' with all of the listening that I've done over the years - sometimes very loud.

What you have read elsewhere is probably very dated & can largely be taken with a grain of salt - there was a lot of negative parroting going on out there a few years ago. Virtually any speaker will break up if over driven & that is normally due to the amp running out of juice.

The M22s are rated at 200 Watts which is more than adequate for normal consumer use...

TAM

Thank you Craig. I think I will keep the speakers, I don't think there is any benefit in upgrading if I am going to use a sub.
I have been trying to read all reviews I can on subs etc. I have the list narrowed down to four.
It is hard because there all factory direct sold except the JL Audio. Which I can hear in Dartmouth. The F112 and the E112.
Again in trying to find out the best deal. For instance just how good is the EP500 at $1500 compared to say the SVS Ultra at $2000. Is the extra $600 for the SVS worth it. Will I as a normal person, I just cannot hear the details you guys do or notice, as you know. But, would I notice the difference to warrant paying and extra $600.
Here's ythe list starting with most expensive.
1.) JL Audio F112
2) JL Audio E112
3) SVS Ultra sealed
4) SVS Plus 12
5) Axiom EP500
6) HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP. Only issue is only ordered via USA

I am kinda leaning towards the SVS Ultra and or JL Audio E112. but Ultra is $600 worth the extra. The JL Audio is $1400 more so I don't think I will go there.Unless there is that much of a difference.

PS I think I just realized to eliminate the JL's and the SVS Plus is just too big. Currently the room will be 13 x 18 x 8. However, in about 3 - 4 years I am going to move and build a bigger room. 15 x 23 x 9. I guess at that point I can always go to four SVS Ultras or four EP500's.

Thanks for your input
all of you

And this is getting ridiculous. Three times this week I had to request a new password. It works for one day maybe two then I have to request a renew.

Sounds like you have your subs too hit, and likely imbalanced beteen makes.

I'm resisting the want to help you. I have given you advice before and was ignored. Your setup will remain hobbled until you learn how to set it up correctly. It wont matter what you upgrade to.

If you cant get a simple password to work......

Craigsub and Exlab are right. Good advice. Ken is also right. You are a broken record of a lost puppy. A puppy who cant learn or listen to others. To the pound with you. Lol.

That should say too hot and between. Fat and annoyed fingers.

I listen to you all and I do take in all advise. I understand Exlab and was/is considering it. Craigsub has given me advise on a different layout. Exlab is rooting for sat and sub and Craig has laid out a lot of info on Towers I currently have and adding subs.

Like I said, If I can pack up my M80's and go to Dwight On. and set them up against all these options I would.

I'm listening and trying to find out how best spend my money. and like a lot of people I just do not have $10000 to send axiom to blind test all the configurations. Plus I really do not want to spend a lot more than I need.

Maybe I am best just to go to Glubes sound studio where they sell good products instead of this online retail.

And simple password seriously. I do not reset my password. I know exactly what it was. I am now doing a password reset, keeping the email on my phone and logging into correctly as I am now.

However, tomorrow it will lock me out. And I have to reset it all over again.
and just incase it is only a temp password they resend, I even went into the profile and changed it. I use upper case and lower case. and in a week or two I cannot log on. I know how usernames and passwords work. I log on at work everyday successfully, with no issues. I do this for a living.

I may not quite understand the full sat/sub or tower/sub and which is the best spent for my money, you can attack me on asking what seems to be too many questions.
But, to say I don't have a clue how usernames and passwords. is not right.

I know what my daughters name is and I know what year she was born. Which is what I used and it reset itself, I have tried my sons name and birthdate I used my middlename and date etc.
Hell I even used the name of the town I live in, I get a month with resetting the temp password to one I choose.
if I do a reset and leave the password as the one Axiom sends it lasts two days. Today is the second day, tomorrow I will have to do a resend again.

I thanks you all for your time, I'll not ask anymore questions.

Troy.

Instead of a long drive to Dwight, although it would be a nice trip in the spring/summer, I suggest that you order 1 or 2 EP-500s & try it/them for a couple of weeks. If they really aren't for you, then pay to ship them back - it would be cheaper in the long run than the road trip. If you really like them, you are a winner.

Based on my extensive experience with my 4 Axiom subs, I believe that you will find them to be both powerful & articulate. Whether you like them or not is another story as everything in this pastime is so subjective...

TAM

I always wanted to go, someday I will.
With Craigs experience with all the subs, I was just looking for some input.
I am pretty sure he has heard these subs. But at $1450 for a factory EP500 , I just want to know if the SVS sealed Ultra was really worth the extra money. SVS has 45 day return.
I am not even sure I will notice the difference, so probably ordering the EP500 is my best bet.

I get what you are saying with the M22 and subs. I had the M&K 750 's and two Energy subs. I really, really enjoyed these when watching movies. I also, owned the M22's. I just thought having M22 and a VP160 and four EP50 would be just as good if not better than M80 and two ep500's.
Just when listening to music, something just wasn't right. But, that could be due to the room I had them in 12 x 12.
I am now in a house and have a better room, 13 x 18 x 8 ish.
Guess this is why I think the way I do. I upgraded the M22 to the M80v3 I have now. I thought they were damn good in my 12 x 12 room with the bottom end. But, it was a smaller room and didn't really turn it up.
Now that I have moved and have them in a bigger room, well that bottom end just is not the same. If I turn up I get to a point and the drivers look like there going to flop out bass gets distorted. That's why I am curious to know about the M80 HP.
Hell, maybe it's my Anthem AMP MCA5 365w. but at $3500 I would think it is a capable amp and with the reviews.

I think I'm just going to put these speakers in the car and take a trip to the city and do a side by side with these other speakers and if there better or give me that bass I am looking for in music then, I know my son wants them. If there's not much difference, then I'll just figure out the sub issue and he can buy his own off the axiom deals.
Thanks

Troy, you just said it yourself , you put the speakers in a different room and now they don't work the same. If you take your speakers to yet another room it is not going to tell you anything about how they will sound in your room. Bass is really straight forward, the more you want the more air you have to move which requires larger displacement ,hence the need for subs. It seems like you are making yourself crazy here LOL. Get a sub and if its now enough get another. 2 subs will allow you to correct for nulls in the room but you have to be willing to move them around. The only sure fire way to get where you want to go is to get some measurement software and a mic and measure from your listening position. Short of that , get 2 subs and set to your preference. If you get the subs too far away from the mains you will need something like a mini dsp to correct the timing delay. You could also consider adding a minidsp with dirac to your existing setup, best room correction available right now and it works fantastic.

Richard

I feel bad. I shouldn't have been that harsh. -But you are nutz. Here is my apology. Reset your room if you can. You can sneak your listening position ahead a bit, but dont go dead center width and length.

Your width modes are 44 and 88hz.
Your Length modes are 31 and 62hz.
Your height modes are 70 and 140hz.

Your modal distribution is good. Good dimensions. No stacking frequencies. Nice even spacing.

31 44 62 70 88 140

Now go get your subs! Put them on the front wall at the 3'3" to center of driver as described. These dimensions work for an untreated room (I assume your's is untreated.) EP500s will fit behind your towers using this plan.

Your present room isn't all that big - about 1900 cu ft.

My HT room is about 2450 cu ft but is really irregularly shaped - essentially my system fires across the room at a 45 degree angle due to it being in a bay window well. I don't get any nulls in my listening area & I attribute that to pretty good performance.

I need to update my gallery pics so you can visualize what I'm talking about...

TAM

Craigsub

Thanks for an excellent exposition!!

I retired an EPIK Legend subwoofer. Didn't think I needed it, and, of course, there is the fire issue with their amps. They are no longer in business.

I think I'll call Debbie about an EP 500 or 600.

See here we go again ...... I was logged on today as you see, with the temp password that was done yesterday. After that email from Serenity, I went to preferences and I changed it. I know it worked, because I logged out and I logged back on. I know what the passwrd was because I set it to my hometown with a capital B. I come home and tonight using Edge it did not work, I went into Firefox and still did not work. Why does it change, this is constantly for the past two years. Anyways, I just did another reset, so now I have a wierd one.

Anyways thanks guys and yes Serenity I am nutz, cause all this is driving me nuts. If I could have a day at axiom I would have the M80v3 and 4's and HP and the 60's and the m22's and the EP500s and I would check them all out and know what I want. But, I can't
Thanks for that diagram, currently I am making some treatments, the room will be treated when completed. Currently I am upstairs in my living room which is about the same size. I have to wait 1yr 6 months before that room gets a redo. Daughter is off to University and I am claiming that room and her big bedroom I just built lol. But, that diagram is so close to what I have setup now. My M80s though are 31" from the wall to the front and I sit 13 ft. A little bit further than I want but, my dual movie chair would look so out of place 3/4 of the way in the room lol.
The M80's are 31" to the inside edges from the side walls. so close to your diagram.

I plan on selling in a few years, no need to pay outrages in town taxes and when I get the next house there will be atleast an addition put on. The room will be as Of now I have drawn out 15x23x9I have me sitting about 14'6" from the front wall about 11'6" from the speakers. the speakers about 9' apart and about 3' in from the walls. Again it gives me some wiggle and play room.
I thnk I am just keeping my 80's and 180 and get the subs. Exlab, I priced it out and it would cost me $6500 for a M22, VP160 and 4-ep500's. or I can keep what I got and spend $3200 on two factory Outlet subs or $4600 for two SVS Sealed Ultra's. I think thats good enough. Then I can grab a new Pre/Pro ( AVM60 ) and add a ADA 1250 3ch and a 4 ch ADA1000 for the rears. I have a MCA50 for my height and 2 ATMOS if I go that route. I am thinking more so Front heights and wides

Actually, while we are having that snowstorm this weekend Serenity I am going to move the stereo down stairs and take over the room for the weekend lol

The dimensions described are to the front center of the baffle. Sorry if that wasnt clear. I have already cheated your seating position back as much as I can while keeping a good listener to speaker ratio. If you move back further you may hear 2 speakers and not a transparent soundstage. If you treat the sidewalls you will definitely have to move forward. The apparent width of the soundstage will decrease dramatically, as you lose those strong lateral reflections.

I'm not sure about the space you are, or will be in, as you mentioned a couple, but you can reverse engineer my math and make it work for your next room. This only took me roughly a 1/2 hour, so no biggie. It was fun.

Couple meaning in a couple years, I am selling the house and when I buy another I will have a room or addition added on for that size.

Yes, what I was saying was with your diagram, my setup is pretty well on what you have in the diagram, save a few inches here and there. Right now I have no option to move my seating position. My speakers are a bit farther apart but toed in. I do not hear two speakers, I can actually use 2ch and one would think the centre channel is on.
I think, ( I cannot go back as I will lose this writing ) but you have the M80 37" to the front from the wall. I am 31" I go closer, because I do not have a sub and I get a bit more bottom end.
Thanks for your time on that diagram

Troy as opposed to 4 Ep500s you would get far lower frequencies with the EP600 or EP800 as they are both tuned lower.
I'm just stepping up to my first 500, I'm in an old apartment with basically the same dimensions 15x19x7.5. though the back of my room is open to bedrooms and washroom, and one side is open to an equal sized kitchen. I find my small subs ineffective with my M80s, SVS PB1000 and a cheap 150 watt 12.
If you have a large opening on either side try facing your speakers away from it so you don't end up needing to pressurize another area of your house.

And there it goes again ;(
I was logged on this afternoon as we see and just had to reset that password again ???????

Anyways, phones are dead at Axiom.

Brendo, yeh only way I was doing 4 subs was with the M22. I am only going with two now , unless I hear something more from Craigsub and that EP800 lol