Hey Fellow Axiomites,

Ive been following this forum and company since i was 12 (33 now) it all started with a trip to the family doctor, whom everyone else's appointment but myself ran late.

Luckily for me there was a Home theater show room, show casing several of Axioms theater set ups just behind the doctors office. An hour later and an enraged father im smiling ear to ear leaving with a major problem( and a red arse). I will forever need to have quality audio in my life.

Fast forward another 13 years and i made my first M22 purchase. Since than i have acquired the Epic 500 Vp150 collection in 5.1 over approx 8 years.

I love my M22's but always felt something was lacking even when i first fired them up. (not that i was unsatisfied, just left with a feeling of that's it?) Once i purchased the remainder of the set everything seemed to come together quite well.

However , with an aging Receiver and always wanting the M60's (too bad the prices aren't the same from a decade ago :D) i find myself wanting to upgrade.

The wife and i are always finding we need to increase the Center speakers' volume to max and still have a hard time differentiating between the center and the side speakers.

I have never calibrated the receiver, but at this point i will be replacing it anyway.

I have been looking at the Onkyo Nr 787,Anthem Mrx 520, as well as the Yamaha Aventage series. it would seem power has been dropped for more feature these days, and i truly dont understand the dynamic range most of them are refering to. each channel is 100 watt output can also do 250w.

In the end, im asking what receiver would be best to drive my system, whether i choose to upgrade to the M5, or the M60's.

i have no doubt about the VP150 to 160 as it seems to be a no brainer.

I know the m60's would be overkill for my current situation, but the whole reference to my childhood is that i don't often have money to splurge so when i do , i purchase quality products to ensure longevity and enjoyment for years to come. As i will eventually be moving into a home in the next 2 years, i dont want to be back here upgrading once again.

Current equipment,

Kenwood VR7070

M22 v3 (2011)
vp150 v3 (2013)
ep500 - V4 (2016)
Qs8 -v4- (2017)

My current space inst very large less than 600 sq ft.(open floor to possibly 800 sq ft) however when i do move, i will be putting this in a dedicated theater room.

sorry for the long email, i felt it necessary to post my situation as we all differ from one another but share the same interest in this amazing company.

Michael, I had the M80, 150, QS8 and 600 - all v2. I upgraded to the 160 and 800 v4. Great upgrade. I should have done it earlier. In the third quarter of last year, I got the QS10, M3, M5 and M100 v4. The QS10 was a great step up from the QS8. An even greater step over the M80v2 was the M3 and a bigger step after that was the M5. The M5 is the highest value between the M3 and M100. You will love them. If you drive them with a good pre-amp and amp, you will not need a sub for music.

As for a receiver, you can read what I've recently found out about my Onk which I always thought was so awesome. Get very good electronics because they make a huge difference.

If Ian wanted to do us all a solid, he'd come up with a family of pre/pros that we could all embrace.

Hey Mojo,

I was hoping to get your feed back actually since reading some of the historic posts.

Which onkyo amp are you using currently ?

I have been leaning towards the M5's as well, as i dont have an unlimited budget and the extra funds would go to a better reciever. They look fantastic and all the reviews highly praise the crisp clean sound, the entire reason i got the M22's was because of how clean and accurate they are.

Realisticly how much do 100 watt channel amps differ from 120 watt channel amps? Are we talking just a few spl? Or something significant.

one more thing sorry, is there no more stand for the vp160? It doesnt seem to be on the site anymore.

I have the nr818. It can dump over 170W into both fronts at once but that's in steady-state. Its transient response absolutely sucks. I only discovered this recently. My 55W pioneer mid-grade audiophile receiver is a killer compared to my Onk.

There is practically no difference between a 100W and 120W amp. To double the SPL, you need to double the power and doubling the SPL won't result in a doubling of perceived loudness. For a doubling of perceived loudness, you'd need about nine times the power!

What you need is a good pre/pro and a good amp. With well-recorded material, I listen at 2W average. When a 20dB peak is reached, with for example a drum, I need 256W to reproduce that peak. What we all need isn't high RMS (except for Slimpikins who plays his Bryston Model T at 32W steady-state), or constant, power. We need HUUUUGE peak power. Unfortunately no one has figured out how to build an amp with teeny constant power and huge peak power.

I think Axiom is in the middle of a stand re-design.

Wow, ya! i defiantly don't have the money to spend on a receiver that has double the output. However i don't mind spending money on a great A/V receiver now and adding a pre out a little later. (i was all over the Onkyo's as its always been a want for myself, but the Yamaha Avenatage 880/1080's are looking quite nice. (yamaha was my first ever system :D)

What type of pre amp would drive the M5's, or M60s in terms of power ? would 500 watts be sufficient or is that not enough to get the full range.

Also sorry if this is a stupid question, but with the pre Amp set up, does that "available power" now become useful to the other channels, if they were to call for it?

Also i was hoping for a few M60 V4 owners to chime in, the wife surprised me last night when i told her i wanted to upgrade and she said "well you better do it soon" i practically fell to my knees, the audio gods have been whispering in her sweet sweet kind ears lol.

Regarding how much power is sufficient for the M5s, it depends how far away you are. I'm 10 feet away from mine and I figured I need 256 peak Watts to reproduce a 20dB peak from a nominal 2W (81dBC) listening level.

Thank you for all your support Mojo, i really appreciate your advice and expertise.

Im going to email Axiom and get the ball rolling.

You're welcome, Michael. You'll be wondering how you lived with those M22s for so long.

Another receiver in the 1500 ball park range is the NAD757. Highly regarded 7.2 with ATMOS outputs {Enabled}, also has DIRAC.
More comparable to the Anthem MRX720. As opposed to the MRX520 with 5.2.
Plus A.R.C. and Dirac are supposed to be the best room corrections at the moment.
Definitely more real power than an Onkyo or Yammie. I was an Onkyo guy for years, the last year I've gone Anthem and couldn't be happier.

Thanks Brendo, ill defiantly add that to my list of reviews.

I still haven't decided if i want to invest in Atmos, especially if we could get some DTS support through a streaming service to say the least. I still love my QS8's theyre soo immersive already. But im sure eventually i will add something to my set up.

How much of an inprovement in sound quality is the Anthem compared to yiur previous Onkyos?

For me the DTSX is really cool.
Not having a proper Atmos. set up,{All monopole} Qs10 as sides M22 front height/On wall. 5.2.2 at the moment. The effects are really engaging both ATMOS. and DTSX.


In regards to the Room correction, they've really gone all out with their studies. ARC is simple run calibration, enter your speaker distances. Check or change crossovers if you like. Better to change them in the app. It will tailor the corrections to your crossovers before Uploaded to machine. Unlike Audessey you have to enter your own speaker distances. If your familiar with R.E.W. you can play with any setting you like. Just need a little digging in the app.

Audessey always set all my speakers to large 40Hz regardless of size, the distance was always spot on.
Out of the box the Anthem had a much nicer sound without anything setup. Played it like that for about the first month.

From my readings Dirac is supposed to be more of a customised set up, or just easier to find typically tinkered settings than ARCs auto settings.


There's a few brands that cater more to sound, than WIFI, streaming bells and whistles. Mostly higher end even crazy prices though. Cambridge, NAD, Arcam, Anthem. Are a few .

I find Audyssey XT32 very consistent and very sensitive. My crossovers are set depending on speaker size and room location.

For me it was setting everything to 40Hz. M3,M22,M80. All 40Hz in the default setup.

XT or XT32?

The Nad does look plenty impressive, its reviews speak quite highly of its room correction technology.

Theyre dont seem to be too many distributors here in canada that i can find though.

I just read that the Yamahas are able to bi amp themselves through the unused rears, allowing the front sides to gain a more dynamic range.

Ive never heard of anything like this before, have you guys seen anything like this previosuly ?

How could you Bi amp a speaker that only has the two bindings? Run the wires in parallel?

My Hvac background wants me to put a jumper lol but im assuming that power wont end up where i would want it without some sort of isolation process in between the two.

You need to get the biamping option on the axioms. New Onks have that as well. On my Onk, I have the ability to create a crossover on a 2-way speaker. I wouldn't do it though for many reasons. I think that was a bad decision by someone in marketing.

Lenbrook is the North American distributor for NAD and they can tell you where in your area to purchase.

Yes, numerous manufacturers have this feature

You can't without serious surgery on the crossover within the speaker. Typically speakers need to have dual binding posts (one for each portion of the crossover the amp section will drive) to allow this.

Hey BBIBH,

Thank you for Distribution and info regarding the Speaking bindings.

I haven't had the free time and or the budget to even consider most of these toys, but recently decided to pull trigger when the Fiance mentioned an upgrade as i have always wanted to.

I have a somewhat different take on your situation. I have a much higher level of speakers but felt that something was missing and the center channel wasn't giving me the clarity of sound needed. It is not amount of amplification as I have far more than is needed. Where I found the problem was in the quality of the head unit (receiver) and I went through more than 6 different options before I splurged and bought the Anthem. With nothing else changing, the sound went indistinct to clarity.

I found the same thing as Matt when I switched my Denon to a mid-grade audiophile Pioneer.

Im thinking this is case with myself as well Matt, however I'm limited to about $1500-$1600 CAD.

The Nad has no DTS wifi or Blu tooth tech and requires a significant amount of cash to splurge on the upgrade and pre amp requirement for more channels as well.

I would love to own an Anthem but an entry level 520 is severly lacking in codecs and power for the cost. The 720 is a dream, however thats a dream i cant currently afford.

I have been leaning heavily towards the Onkyo TX-RZ920.

Iam open to suggestion, i will mention im not a fan of Denon.

I'm in the same boat as you, Michael. I don't need a pre/pro right now but if my Onk dies, I'm not sure what I'll go to.

Hey Matt,

Do you (or anyone for that matter) have any listening experience with the Mrx720? I have been offered quite a nice deal from a local dealer.

Im not sure if it would be better to take the hit and go with the Nad or this one. Ive decided to increase the budget a little more than expected. Its around the 2k mark.

Thanks

Michael

I have an MRX720 it's great. 7.1 or 5.1.2 out of the box {dual sub}.
If you can get a deal highly recommend. Even before I ran ARC sounded really good.

Originally I mentioned the NAD 757 as it has similar specs. to the 720. With 7.2 channels out of the box and ability to add external power if you so wish to go full ATMOS 7.2.4 later.

Here in Vancouver the NAD is 1499 while the Anthem is 2499. Not sure of your location though I would expect similar as they tend to keep it somewhat universal per country.
Unless of course you land a deal
Also here in Vancouver NAD is much easier to find than Anthem.

The NAD isn't as powerful, lacks wireless/internet connectivity including of course Spotify. As far as I know, for room correction, it uses Audyssey MultEQ which is utter crap. ARC is vastly superior but you will have to fiddle with it and run it on a laptop or PC. The Anthem gives you more granular control over almost everything.

Thanks guys appreciate the advice.

It does retail for the same or higher locally, I have been offered quite an honest offer so far and was told it can be sweetened upon coming to the showroom.

I also just read they will be updating ARC, to ARC genesis come spring this year which will improve on from what've read as an already incredible bit of software.

Im thinking i May have to put in a few extra hours for Anthem! Lol.

Anthem is local to me. they originated in Oakville, about 6 min away from where I lived. They are now in Mississauga I believe.

All the MRX520, 720 & 1120 plus the AVM60 are built on common core internals. if you notice, the firmware for each of them are the exact same file, so they sound produce is also pretty much the same. Where you get into detail differences. The 520 has a much cheaper power supply inside compared to the Torroidal ones inside the 1120 and AVM60. it is smaller than the 720, but also has less channels of amplification. They are all the same core board layout and fit in the exact same box except for the back plate is different.

The advantage of the Anthem is the ARC sound correction in it doesn't get in the way with it's processing of sound. It is that part that I found muddied the sound from everything else that I had tried. The circuit board layout of the anthem is sweet.

I firmly believe that you don't really need very much power to drive your speakers most of the time. If you want to get into the experience... with a Pioneer receiver as my head unit, I needed to turn the volume up to -10db to get a loudness I wanted and it sounded wrong even though I was using the pre-out and running through a 250w axiom amp to drive the speakers. The Anthem I can get the same loudness at -18db and it is clear sounding... but I actually only need to use -22db (not as loud) as the sound is clear and I was turning up the volume to try and compensate for the lack of clarity with volume.

I was not aware they originated in Oakville, that's my exact location.

I find my situation sounds quite similar to yours. Although i'm lacking a pre-out, I'm usually listening around -30db with the center at +4 because anything more causes the sound to be terribly distorted and the imaging comes across very brash. resulting in poor clarity as you mentioned.

Even with the center at +4 it doesn't sound correct, but its the only way to hear dialogue.

I'm a firm believer that power is not everything, its about the delivery and components managing the output.

With a pre-out being added to the A/V receiver, how many speakers would you really want/need to provide the extra power to ? typically is it just the L/R channels? or do a lot of Audiophiles do a L/C/R combination?

i get lost when looking at pre-outs.

Like Matt, I do like the fact that you can choose to cut ARC off at the higher frequencies.

Matt, it sounds like the Anthem has higher pre-out gain than the Pioneer. This is an important factor that is often over-looked when buying separates. The pre-out signal level has to be matched with the external amp. If the level is too high, you may saturate the amp. If the level is too low, you'll never get full power out of the amp.

Judging by the engineers working there, I do think Anthem knows what they're doing.

Michael, I think your problem is that Kenwood of yours. It's running out of steam. It will be interesting to see how things improve when your new Axiom gear shows up.

Coudlnt agree more, im just about to head out for a listen to the anthem.

If i do end up grabbing it today, i would be very interested in how it's perfomance is with and without arc with my current setup.

Than repeat with the trade up when it arrives, just for curiousities sake.

I'm real curious to hear your feedback.

So just an update, I eneded up grabbing the Mrx 720, i couldnt say no to the offer.

The audition was incredible, i was able to go through a few of the DTS-X demos while in store and tool around with the reciever as i liked.

I havent had a chance to hook it up as of yet, im a manual kinda guy so ill read it 1000 times before i do anything lol. Also i probably won't have time till this Friday to be realistic.

On another note, my pair of M60's and my Vp160 shipping notice was emailed today so im super excited to get the ball rolling on all fronts. Ill be taking pictures of the unboxings and writting a personal review/comparison for:

Athem- epic grandmaster vp150/160 ep500

Anthem- epic 60 ep500 vp150/160

Kenwood- epic 60 500 vp150/160

Im no professional but ill put my two cents together as best as i can. I will also be reviewing/comparing the mass step up with the Arc calibration.

Woo hoo, Michael. I'm so envious. You go, man!

Thanks Mojo, they all arrived today, so im going to have some fun tinkering.

However on a side note i pulled my ep500 cover off and the cone and gasket ? is quite dusty, is there something i can wipe with ? Or a use a very soft bristle brush with air ?

My compressed can wasnt moving it very well.

I cant wait to plug these in they far more beautiful than i could have imagined. Lol the ep160 is huge! People arent kidding it dwarfs my ep150.

If you run into any questions or problems, shoot me a message. I gather that you are in Oakville, so it's not a big deal to pop around and give a helping hand.

BTW: the MRX720 is one kick-ass unit. I would have gone that route myself, but as I have the LFR's they need an external amp, so I figured, in for a penny, in for the whole dollar.

Good news! I don't know what to suggest for the surround. I've never had to clean mine in the 12 years of owning Axioms. The cone including the dustcaps are both aluminum so you can use a cloth.

Hmmm...just crank it and watch the dust fly.

Hi Michael13,

I would suggest damping a rag with warm water and wiping the cone and surround with it.

Thanks Ian, i really appreciate the quick response.

Also a big thanks is in order to you and your amazing team! Thanks for all the help and expertise.

The M60's combined with qs8s , ep500 and 160 blend seamlessly together. Im beyond happy!

Hey Matt,

Yes that is correct im indeed in Oakville!

Im hoping to hook the Anthem up today, i was playing with the Kenwood and the M60/160's last night .

What a huge improvement in clarity while cranking the spl. I will defiantly keep you in mind, as im sure i will have many more questions.

Thanks again to everyone for there support and expertise, this is an excellent community to be apart of.

Michael, please let us know what you perceive with the Anthem over the Kenwood.

Most defiantly Mojo, im going to give it about a week, before i put the pen to paper.

You guys didnt warn me though, i should have taken two weeks vacation lol with the new toys. Im reliving my entire life through tidal with the future wife and we couldn't be happier.

The sound is magnificent from the Anthem thus far, no Arc calibration as of yet, its literally melting my brain, the clarity and punch are outstanding.

Oh yeah??! Michael, I'm drooling. How does it feel to hear what you've been missing? Those ol' M22s and 150 must seem like some kind of nightmare now, huh?

Wait 'till you get your new place and can put it all in bigger space. More revelations will surface.

It's amazing , i cant get over how how much more detail can be revealed with the M60s.

I was always amazed with the detail of the M22's, that tight punch you get from a " bookshelf" speaker, but now theres soo much happening in the mid-range its fantastic.

The sounds stage is completely 3d, if you look at the Qs8's while in Anthem music mode(2.1) you swear the rear channels are pushing out the music.

Lol, i look at my M22's and Vp150 and they look soo small in comparison. All while i used to think they were more than adequate size wise.

The Vp160 compared to the older gen 150 is not even a fair match to be honest. They work on entirely different audio plains. For movies and dts neutral its revolutionary. Its like yourself and others mentioned, you will kick yourself for not have ordered V4's earlier or the upgrade to 160/180.

Also, refering to a M60 review, i had powered off my Ep500 while moving ( was a little over tired and moved it while powered and threw the line in cord out of the way, only to get a bit of feedback, scared the shit out my half awake corpse lol) so i powered it off for the time beeing.

Come an hour later we throw on, fantastic beasts, the crimes of grindelwald, the entire time i kept saying wow, this reciever is smoothing out the bass soo much its fantastic and the way the M60s are blending in with the bass response is phenomal.

Guess what ? I never turned the sub back on while watching the movie, my couch was shaking with no issue. I coudlnt believe it was just the M60s the previous night once i discovered i failed to flip it back on.

Im obssessed, all i can think of is getting home to play the next tune, or bunker down for an epic movie.

Yeah dude. I told ya.

I don't think it's the M60s per se. It's the fact it's v4. A v2 M60 wouldn't sound like that.

When the digital cross-over versions of all these speakers come out, I expect they will again be on an entirely different plain.

In the meantime we can revel in what we have until it comes time to upgrade.

Enjoy!

BTW, listen to this on Tidal. They're in my place, across the 20 foot width of my living room and out the frickin' window into my yard!

https://tidal.com/track/63458923

I swear the neighbors thought mardi gras came to them this past evening lol. The trumpet and saxophone details are outstanding.
Completely past my floors and dividing walls into the public parking lot haha.


I defiantly added this to the favorites.

How are younusing tidal ? Wirelessly or plugged in ?

Is there an actual difference between 16 bit and 24bit audio? Ive been reading several articles discussing this issue. Most seem to conclude we wont hear anything above 16 bit, but i would debate that, by stating wouldnt a hell of alot more detail and quality be better recorded/remastered in 24bit files?

See? It's amazing!

I am listening to Tidal wirelessly. Tidal definitely preserves the macro dynamics better than Spotify but admittedly it's not something I can easily hear. I can't hear a difference in the microdynamics.