I'm thinking of EP125v4 or EP175v4 for my 20x12x8 living room for use with M2OW. 2-channel music only down to 28Hz.

Any thoughts?

Based on the last time I had looked at specs I was thinking "duh, EP175" but it appears that the latest versions of the subs go deeper than they used to and that the main difference is more SPL than frequency response.

Given the room size I guess I would still lean towards EP175 though.

John, thanks. I plan on duals - one for each channel. I use the pre-outs from my Pioneer to drive each of my current $100, sloppy-sounding subs.

The entire line of ported subs was re-worked by Andrew. I have never heard one but I've been around long enough to know the legacy designs left a lot to be desired. The new ones reach lower, suffer less distortion, have more power and are more reliable. I think they are finally what they ought to have been from the start.

I need subs that are musical, integrate well with the M2OW, have the finish I want and are small enough for my living room. I'm leaning with giving dual 125s a spin. I suspect they'll sound as musical as the sealed subs but with less reach and output.

I'm going dual 125s. Those will easily reach down to 28Hz and ought to give me great mid-bass with room gain to boot.

Now I gotta stew for 2 months on what kind of wood and finish I want. I should get a sample of woods from Axiom.

Damn, Axiom makes nice, awesome-sounding gear!

Sounds good. For movies I would still argue for "one big" rather than "two small" but for music a pair of EP125's seems promising, and you were pretty clear that this was going to be a music system.

Indeed, music only in 2.2. I was thinking of dual 500s but I really don't need that reach and power. Plus I really want to listen to the least expensive Axiom sub and see what Andrew ended up doing with it. I listened to Axiom's least expensive speakers and ended up loving them as much as the actives.

Mojo....what are the least expensive speakers you enjoy so much?

M2 on-walls. In my 1900 cu. ft. living room, they are the most satisfying speaker I've ever had. I've tried all the Axioms I've ever owned in my living room.

My review:

My living room walnut M2OW continue to offer me endless entertainment in my bungalow. No matter where I am in my 1100 sq. ft. space, all I hear is clear, undistorted music. When in my main listening position, it is still hard for me and my guests to believe the wall-to-wall soundstage, which extends out into my yard, comes from small, wall-mounted speakers that completely disappear acoustically while rendering accurate images with space between them. Whether you get the on-walls or bookshelves, you'll be rewarded with one of Axiom's little known secrets - M2s mated with sealed subs are all most listeners need for movies and music.

Following!! I’d love to hear what you think of that setup with dual 125.

Maybe dual 175 for my space...... to augment my m60s, you got me thinking. ( I’m about 3000cubed in the listening space but open to 4800 all in). I know you’ve said dual sealed 500s in the past but that’s not realistic $$$ right now. Plus I’ve got other basic upgrades to make. But id love to hear your honest review of those dual 125s.

Now you have to do it...... wink. Just pick a colour and go for it!!!!

I'm gonna do it but not until the fall. Suspenseful, huh?

I'd bet for your musical tastes of Clapton, Paul Simon, etc, dual 125s would work in that room. In both of our cases, we only need down to 28Hz. With room gain, we'd get at least that. Each sub gives us 500 dynamic Watts. 1000 such Watts is nothing to sneer at.

You can cross them at 40 or 60Hz through your Yammy and get some nice support from your 60s.

I look forward to your review!! The suspense is killing me. ( not really. ). Smirk. I’ve been patient this long for any upgrades so I’ll happily wait. I’m kinda hoping and holding out for some kind of Black Friday and Xmas sales.

I wouldn’t have a way to choose the cross over other than what is on the axiom plate amp. My yammie is not an adjustable avr. But that’s a good thought for a feature to look for in a new integrated to take some of the “ strain “ off the towers.

It’s nice to be back chatting with you and every body. Cheers.

All newer receivers have it. Even the cheapest ones.

Adjusting the cross-over on the plate amp doesn't unburden the speakers BTW. You can set the sub's cross-over to 80 and just let the 60s play low. Or you could turn down the bass on the yammy and boost the volume on the sub.

Not sure you know but Andrew worked over the 125v4 good. It's almost as good as the 175v3. I'd bet it sounds better than the 175v3. Andrew's the real deal. He's an engineer's engineer. Do you know he broke the laws of physics on the Air N3? He's making 30 Volts from a 15 Volt battery. That's how he gets 75W a side. He takes constructive feedback too because he's humble enough to know goodness can come from many sources.

P.S. I should bring the M100s over.

I had a feeling Andrew was the real deal. I can tell from his videos he’s low key and humble. It’s a good thing in my opinion. It’s a good fit with axiom as I’ve always considered the company as low key and understated but the products speak for themselves.

Anyway, that’s good info re: the reworking of the ep125. I think it’s a serious consideration. I’m not needing the visceral effects for movies , but I do want some underpinning for full range music. It just might fit the bill in my space.

Y’all are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks.

Ps. Or I just buy m100s and not need any subs!

Do you have a big space? Might be a cool idea to trade in?

M100s!

Just make sure you can set them up with space around them.

He has around 3300 cu ft and open to the rest of his abode. Wood stove too. Want that!

His M60ti are used.

Yup. They’re used. So no upgrade there. But M100 or LFR actives realistically will be a future setup when I move.

I’m kinda focussed on having the best sound I can get from these m60s for now and not spending a ton of $$$. ( bc I’m spending it elsewhere!!)

Mojo you could have a wood stove too!! It’s not a complicated install......there’s even a really cool forum for wood burning junkies. You’d love it.

Edit: yes I’m member of that wood burning forum. Super nerd.

I'd never install it myself. I'd end up burning my audio gear...LOL! I love fires, man. I am out on my deck all the time lighting up the fire-pit and playing with my knives pretending I'm out in the forest. My Air Freedom is out there too. Now that I have the battery for the Force, I'll be using that a lot more.

Kodiak, I've been thinking about your predicament. You have an older receiver. You also really seem to like your holographic imaging which I think only a few of us on this board seem to appreciate - maybe because of proper room or set-up.

I have found fewer drivers image better. I can drop the M2 bookshelves pretty much anywhere and instant holography. And frankly, they go loud enough even with an ancient receiver. But they do need subs. Maybe you ought to consider a couple of M2v4 bookshelves and EP125v4.

I am willing to bet they will be more satisfying than your M60ti.

Thanks for putting some good thought into my setup. Most appreciated. It’s crazy , I get in a tizzy over upgrading and get bent on ideas and then eventually calm down.

I like your idea actually. It would be a nice setup. I had a similar thought with m5hp with twin ep350. M2 with with 350s? The nice thing with sub satellite system is it frees up a ton of power in my amp to power the bookshelves only. It effectively gives me more overhead not having to power the bass woofers of the m60

I had a nice session today again with Acoustic Guitar Coffee House etc and I’m totally blown away how amazing it sounded. It’s great to get back to basics and sit and really listen. It’s a great modest system.

I didn’t really expect to get so caught up in this hobby. I thought I’d get some ok speakers plug em in and enjoy. But I want more and better now that I have a taste of what’s possible. !!!

So I’m basically right where I started almost a year ago. !! Enjoying my m60s.

Also, this is a good predicament to have really!!

M2 with subs you say? Hmmmmmmm

Edit: m22 with subs.....also hmmmmmm.

Too many choices. I'm trying to get the 125s in here as soon as possible with 21 day ICW.

Awesome. I look forward to hearing what you think of them in that arrangement.

Any thoughts on how it would be to stack an m5 or m2 / m22 on top of a sub as a quasi tower in a 2.2 setup. ?

Or is that just a bad idea.

It would be fine with some damping on the speakers. I think Axiom sends out silicone stickies with the bookshelves.

Try to keep the faces of the speakers flush with the sub faces to minimize reflections and diffractions.

A bigger problem might be location of the subs. If the speakers are being placed in a corner (of course that wouldn't be you), the subs may go BOOM! I've found a third of the wall away from a corner and away from the wall works well for subs.

Well that’s good to know that it’s doable. Kind of a cool setup really. As far as placement goes I would just treat them as a tower speaker once the level matching was sorted out.

Guess I’d need ep500 or ep600 to get the tweeters at ear level. Ha.

Edit: M22 must be a special order product I guess. Not on the site other than in refurb store. See!! Here we go again. Another idea gonna get me in tizzy!

Axiom doesn't want to sell it but it will never go away.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/m22-bookshelf-speakers

Kodiak, do you know how much power your receiver is kicking out?

Also, and I hesitate to say this, but there is an EP350 on the refurb store that would change your life for only $450! If you don't buy it, I will!!!

Buy the 175v4 instead of the 350v2.

why why why! I do realize this conversation is now happening in two threads!

See other thread. Lol!

Rebulx. It’s gotta be Boston Cherry. But yes I did see it.

http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/8/8a5564e1-901f-400f-a3a3-bf3de9e3ac0b.pdf

http://www.audioreview.com/product/amplification/receivers/yamaha/rx-595.html

80wattsx2 @ 8 ohms. With 120 watt “ peak “. I think it’s a reasonable receiver. It’s “ vintage “ now!! Ha ha ha!!

Yeah sorry about the 2 threads. That happens. It gets sidetracked and off topic. As usual.

As for why? I know mojo is a v4 aficionado!!! And as mentioned above the v4 are had Andrews improvements in them. I’m waiting to see how it all goes in mojos setup.

I move very slowly with purchases and am a perpetual tire kicker of sorts. I’m in no rush and am trying to learn how to love what I have. I will eventually upgrade things when the right thing comes along or it just hits me! Like a aha! That’s what I’m doing!

Edit: I should add too, that I’ve learned a ton along the way by thinking about all this stuff and asking questions and experimenting with what I’ve got. There’s a nuance and minutiae to it that I find very interesting. When I do finally upgrade a component or something it will be one piece at a time to really understand and know how it’s changed the setup for better or worse. If I just buy a whole bunch of stuff at once I won’t learn how it all interacts with each other.

Welker ripped it a new sphincter, flung a couple of braces here and a new amp there and blessed it good to go with his iron ring.

P.S. He designed a higher volume box for the EP125 to better match with the extra power boost he built into the amp. The EP125 is actually an EP200 with 2.5 times that power for peaks.

He seems calmer than that in the you tube videos mojo. Maybe he’s a closet Hulk raging in the anechioc chamber where no one can see or hear.

Check it out for yourself. The 350v2 was a twin-sphinctered fart machine. Without waffling or warning, Welker wholeheartedly and wilfully walloped another wonderful windy window, welcoming a worthwhile wicked wavelength welterweight without warbling woofing.

I see what you did there Gerald. Nice.

lol well said Kodiak! btw, I love that old Yamie, looks like a sexy ham radio... in 10 years things will come full circle and receivers will start to look like that again.. trust me!

This would be even cooler in champagne color.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/outlaw-audio-rr2160-stereo-receiver

I like that outlaw 2160 a lot. I want it in black though.

I’m glad you got my Gerald reference there Rebulx.

So I’ve got a hammie yammie eh?

I really like this Yamaha after all. My first post on the forum was looking for a new receiver or integrated. But I’m pretty happy with it so far. It does the job. It’s got good punch and power to medium volume. I just can’t play VERY loud. I’m scared of blowing a tweeter and it get distorted.

I think I’d buy another Yamaha power plant. I like the looks and specs of the as-1200.

[quote=Mojo]This would be even cooler in champagne color.

Or Miami vice white!!!! With some sideburn chops on it!

Lol. If I was Mr. Outlaw, I'd invent that option. Just for the PR factor. Rebulx would buy it.

Outlaw was the way I found Axiom ... liked the idea of a company cutting out the middle man and selling direct ... then thought hey wonder if there are any speaker companies out there like that ...

Axiom is how I found out about Outlaw. I really like the features of the 2160 Receiver. Their m5000 is pretty popular too by the looks of a quick google search.

Do you own any Outlaw stuff rrlev?

I was following them for years waiting for the 997 prepro. It was always just a few more months to release. In the end the project was canceled think around 2010. I was not really interested in their other offerings.

For anyone considering a v4 ported or sealed sub, it may be worth reading what Andrew wrote about the new designs.

"Since the cat is out of the bag on the new v4 subwoofers, I figured it would be a good idea to start an official v4 subwoofer thread where we can discuss these new products all in one place. I'll give a quick overview of what's new/changed/updated and then open the thread up to your questions/concerns/comments/etc.

So, what has changed?

ALL of the amplifiers are new. Although the amplifiers themselves appeared a few months ago in the v3 models, the full performance improvements and changes in analogue EQ (EP125/175/350) and DSP programming (EP500/600/800) have only now been implemented in the v4 models. All amplifiers now feature heavy-duty, panel mounted gold-plated input and output RCA jacks. No more 1/4" phono adapter or having to mix connections when daisy-chaining subs. The non-DSP models now only have RCA and speaker-level inputs, while full RCA and balanced XLR input and outputs, along with stereo speaker-level inputs can be found on the DSP models.

ALL of the woofers have been newly designed with higher linear excursion, higher power handling, and lower distortion. Higher power handling was required in order to make full use of the capability of the new amplifiers.

The non-DSP models now feature signature Axiom trapezoidal cabinets, revised bracing, and revised tuning/alignments. The EP125 and EP175 have grown somewhat in size and feature far greater low frequency headroom with longer ports for lower tuning. All of these models also utilize a newly designed pre-amp/EQ/limiter module that incorporates an "analogue biquad", essentially an extremely flexible parametric filter block that allows these models to now be nearly as linear as their DSP controlled big brothers. I would go so far as to say that, except in a head to head blind listening test, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between an EP175v3 and an EP125v4! The EP350 has actually been reduced in size, and now features a triple vortex porting arrangement. I should also note that all of the non-DSP models utilize a unique bracing system that braces both the cabinet walls and the now much-longer port tubes.

For the DSP models, the EP500 has now also taken on the signature Axiom trapezoid cabinet shape and the EP600 has been reduced in height, falling between the heights of the EP500v4 and the EP800. The EP800 remains the same size (i.e. BIG!) but features revised bracing and a new, dual-chamber configuration. You can think of it as essentially two independent subwoofers in one cabinet. Now, the biggest change to the EP500 and EP600, that many of you have already noticed, is that all of the DSP subwoofers are now sealed, acoustic suspension designs. I'm sure that there will be many questions asking why we decided to go in this direction. The simple answer is distortion. At some point, ports have a tendency to make some noise, particularly with subsonic movie effects. There is also the issue that the woofer in a ported system becomes essentially unloaded below the tuning frequency of the ports. In order to EQ a ported subwoofer to be linear down to the lowest frequencies, we are asking a lot of the woofer in terms of excursion. With higher excursions, no matter how large the Xmax of the woofer, distortion increases. Sealed subwoofers have the benefit that they are constantly loaded by the pressure inside the cabinet. The required filtering is also more elegant and we are able to drive the woofer right up to the limits of the amplifier power available. The end result of all this technical talk is that, even though the EP500v4 has a smaller footprint and is a sealed box, it is capable of the same maximum output as the ported EP500v3 with less distortion.

To close, this project comprises an enormous R&D effort that took the better part of a year. We are very pleased with the results and hope that those of you that choose to buy or upgrade will be impressed by the results!

Cheers,

Andrew"

Thanks for posting that... I somehow managed to completely miss it.

John, are you gonna get some sphinctered Axiom subs? Can you please get the 125, 175 and 350 and tell us what you think? I don't want to be doing all the work around here.

Great advice Mojo, I thought I was the only one who ordered everything on the menu and sent back what I didn't like. Yes, I can now only goto Mcdonalds and Taco Bell now. lol

You can afford gourmet cuisine from McD's and TB? I'm down to neighborhood road-kill.

The interesting thing is, all v4 sound great. Big or small, I want it all!

Me too, I found Outlaw through my visits to the Axiom forum. Picked up a 7700 multichannel amp and a couple of m-2200 mono blocks. Waited around for their vapor pre-pro, finally gave up on it.

When did Andrew post that information on the v4 sub woofer improvements?

Jeff

Six years ago.

I love my 7700 and my newer Emo for the Atmos speakers.

If it really works, the new Monoprice is better. It individually manages up to 5 subwoofers. The Sound and Vision reviewer was absolutely awed with the sound. Smart move not to spend money developing video processing. Does anyone actually use it? The video processing in my Onk is more sophisticated than the audio processing. I've never used it.

I want Axiom to develop something like this. Time for Ian to pull out all stops! I figure it's a ten million dollar investment to do it right if you are just starting out from scratch. Problem is, once it's finished, it's already obsolete.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-htp-1-surround-sound-processor-review