VP150 a little boxy, please help me optomize.

Here is the general setup:
(All connected to Denon AVR-2805, Panasonic DVD-S35)
Listening seat approx 10' from VP150.
'150 is on top of TV, with wedges underneath to point it at listening position.
M22's on 16" stands approx. 12" from side walls, back of cabinets 12" from rear wall, approx 9' apart. They sound great w/wo sub.
EP350 inboard of LF speaker, back of cabinet is 12" or so from rear wall.
QS8's on QSS stands beside and slightly behind listening position.

The '150 just sounds a little boxy, a little "forward in the mid-range." The individual speakers sound clear, and I can hear no crackle or fuzz in them at all. Phase is correct (as I double-check again). I'm hoping to get some ideas on how to get a little better sound out of it.

Today marks one week since arrival/setup. I have enjoyed the
system immensely. Just this one last little sticking point with the '150. Also, a buddy is bringing over his HSU VTF-3 MKII (?) tomorrow so we can have a subwoofer showdown. He already envies the M22/QS8/VP150 combo (even with my audio-geek concern over the 150). He has a BIG RETAIL setup other than the HSU. But the HSU is IMPRESSIVE. I want to do a side-by-side, and he wants to hear it with the Axioms.

Thanks,

Mark

Not sure, so far I haven't had such an issue, they seem very detailed and accurate with no mid push. Is this with all movies? Have you used the Auto Setup? For the Room EQ do you have it set to none, or Normal after running the autosetup. I notice if I switch from Room EQ off to Room EQ Normal, after performing the AutoSetup Pink noise tests, there is a little more punch...

M60's Vp150 EP350 4 Qs8's
Denon 2805

Have you calibrated using an SPL meter? Have you tried moving the M60s forward or backwards a bit?

I should have been a little more detailed:

"Dialog" movies are more susceptible. Especially movies with a "dry" mix. Resevoir Dogs does it, Pulp Fiction, not so much. TV is boxy. LOTR, Star Wars, not a problem. It's only when dialog is at the forefront, only on some sources. "Elephant" was boxy, "When Harry Met Sally (don't ask) wasn't. Could just be the source, I don't know. I'm just wondering if others have seen this phenomenon and were able to fix it with a little tweaking. That's the problem: With the upgraded speakers and receiver, you hear everything, warts and all. I think I already addressed the issue of my wife's beloved Rolling Stones cd's which are all old pressings not digitally remastered. She can't bear to listen to them and has ordered remastered replacements of some of them already.

"I think I already addressed the issue of my wife's beloved Rolling Stones cd's which are all old pressings not digitally remastered. She can't bear to listen to them and has ordered remastered replacements of some of them already."

If you ever get tired of her, can I have her?

As far as the SPL meter: Yes, yes, a thousand times YES I have
Thine Holy SPL Meter and have thus gone forth and anointed thine speakerseth.

As far as y'all waiting in line to steal my wife:
To quote Mr. C. Gull from the movie "Finding Nemo": "Mine, mine, minemineminemine!"

The '22's are in their "sweet spot" and should not be moved, methinks. And sorry for the misspelling of optimize. I am now flogging myself with licorice whips.

Mark:
I think that the biggest change you'll find in positioning is moving it further and closer to the wall.

Try isolating the center. I tested mine by popping the banana plugs off the back of my M60s and lying to my receiver: "No, I swear I have no sub or rears!" I proclaimed with a straight face.... When you're hearing only the center with music and movies, you'll better be able to tweak the position. Don't forget also to experiment with "large and small" settings on your receiver.

Finally, regarding Mick and company: Don't forget that one of the axioms of Axioms (I crack myself up) is that they will let crappy recordings sound that way! If the Stones sound bad but some great recent recording sounds good, you'll know it's the source material!

Good Luck!

Mark, that's a good tip. I'll try to isolate the '150. And the remastered "Sticky Fingers" is worlds better. Although the actual recording is still, I don't know, blah. The music is good though, for the Stones.

Well, although I'm not named Mark, I'd still like to participate in any threads where you can sneak in annointing, flogging and the Rolling Stones.

Um, Ray, he's got M22's. Try to keep up, willya?

I like MarkS's suggestion about isolating the speaker and fiddling with the front/back ratio a bit. He cracks both of us up.

Have you tried comparing the full 5.1 on the objectionable material with using a phantom center channel (umm, 4.1?)? Any chance you can move the speaker, even temporarily, to a spot/stand in front of the TV and closer to the floor? Just to see if a dramatic change in placement does anything?

Can you show us pictures? Have you read the beer thread? Do you have any good chili recipes?

and make sure you report back on that EP350/Hsu showdown. Please. You'll be adding to the collective wisdom, and possibly reducing the number of subwoofer threads by up to 2%.

All the advice on the speakers sounds good to me, so I thought I would appease Tom:

Relatively quick meat Chili:

5 lbs. ground sirloin (can substitute some beans if you must)
1 lb ground italian sausage
2 Tbs salt
2 Tbs black pepper
2 large onions diced
0.25 cup minced garlic
0.25 cup spanish paprika
0.5 cup chili powder
2 Tbs ground cayenne (more to taste)
2 Tbs sugar
1 Tbs ground cumin
2 Tbs parsley flakes
0.25 cup Worchestershire sauce
4 15-oz. cans diced tomatoes
1 15-oz. can tomatoes & green chilies

Mix meats, cook on medium heat with 1 Tbs salt and 1 Tbs pepper. Add onion & garlic, stirring occasionally until meat is brown. (~15 minutes) Pour off drippings, add mixture to 8 qt. pot on medium heat and add all other ingredients. Bring to a boil, then simmer (covered) for 15 minutes, stir once or twice.

serve wth some grated cheddar on top...yum.

Edit: I just read the most excellent chili recipe posted in the other thread... I'm sure it's better, no doubts there. I should probably rename this one, Extremely quick meat chili. I gotta make some of the other one for the games sunday...

I will try all suggestions and report back the results.

Pictures will be forthcoming after my buddy the "Wire Management Guru" and I clean things up this weekend.

Here in Portland you can go into a pub and get some of the best beer brewed anywhere. And in many watering holes you can select from 100+ taps pouring fine brew from around the world. I am working on my chili, but my specialties are wood-smoked brisket and ribs and hardwood charcoal grillin'.

Yum! While watching th "Great Chili Cook-Off" or somesuch, I saw a segment on one of the contentant's prep. He basically took 3 or 4 kinds of chilis, charred them on the fire, pureed them, and used that as the base for the whole thing. One of those "no beans, no tomatoes" recipes. My attempts at duplicating this recipe thus far have resulted in my mouth burning with the heat of a thousand supernovas or a watery, tasteless sludge. But I will not be deterred!

Oh, Mark, you're gonna fit in just fine around here.

I love Portland (I'm from Tacoma, and live in Puyallup). We used to go to Portland a lot before our kids were born. I love all McMenamins, and the Lucky Lab, too.

Stick around and help us with our BBQ.

Random thoughts :

It's not likely this is the problem, but what frequency are you crossing the VP150 over at ? If it's anything below 100 Hz you might have a bit of a bass hole which could make for a boxy sound.

If the front of the VP150 is not hanging out in front of the TV/shelf that's going to hurt the sound a bit. I'm hoping you don't have a shelf or something directly above the center speaker -- my VP100 sounded boxy until I realized I had essentially put it in a box

Finally, don't know if you have seen this article from Alan. No real details but a good reminder of how much difference finding the right placement can make.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_center_channel_sound.html

Good luck, let us know how it goes !!

My family is in Port Townsend. This place is getting smaller and smaller...

John,

Thanks for the input. Crossover is set at 80. I just realized something that has been right in front of my face that may be a problem. My A/V rack is pulled about 2' from the rear wall currently while I'm tweaking things an preparing for the Wire Management Marathon. That could be a problem. And in a Doh! moment, I realize I read Alan's article on center sound before I even ordered my speakers. I
have now stuffed my tail between my legs and will go forth and fix the problem.

BBQ Brisket (simple, "faster" recipe)

1 untrimmed brisket
1 handful sea- or Kosher- salt
1 handful freshly ground pepper
1 pile of white oak logs
1 case of beer
1 smoking contraption of your choice (meaning BBQ, natch)

1) Rub, don't sprinkle or pat, salt and pepper into brisket
2) Seal in (CLEAN! UNUSED!) garbage bag overnight
3) Load in a couple of logs, let it burn until mostly coal
4) Regulate temp to 210 to 225 deg. F.
5) Place meat, fat side up, in the "pit"
6) As the wood is consumed, light another log in a firepit or another BBQ and let it burn until it isn't producing large flames, then add it to the firebox. Keep temp. constant.
Note: Starting new fuel seperately helps immensely in regulating temp. Also, until the wood gets to the point of smoldering, there are a bunch of nasty things in the smoke which can make your meat taste terrible. Also, TOO much smoke will make your meat taste bitter.

8) Keep this up, 8 to 14 hours. Don't peek for the first 8 hours.
9) Drink the beer. I don't recomment starting when you first light the fire.
10)Brisket is done when the fat is completely rendered and you can cut the meat with a coax cable.

Mark

Kee-riminy! I can't type to save my life today! No wonder the script I was working on all day kept coughing up errors. Wow, Port Townsend, Puyallup (that's Poo-yallup to non NWers). Let's pick a pub and have a couple. In Olympia, maybe?

Thanks to all for the advice!

Mark

In reply to:
Wow, Port Townsend, Puyallup (that's Poo-yallup to non NWers). Let's pick a pub and have a couple. In Olympia, maybe?

Did I neglect to mention that my step-father, one John Robert McMenamin, is a cousin of the McMenamins of NW pub fame? And he isn't even the part of my family in the NW, he lives in Chicago.

Surreal.

>>Note: Starting new fuel seperately helps immensely in regulating temp.

Cool, I learn so much on this board. If it wasn't almost -40 with the wind chill I would run out and try it. The great thing about -40 is that it's the same in F and C, not to mention it's REALLY FLIPPIN' COLD.

So, to recap, Mark has posted a recipe that includes meat, beer, contraptions and measures of "pile", and "handful".

Can I please get a Tim Taylor grunt from the congregation!?!?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Actually, us Northwesterners have been pretty scarce hereabouts up until now.

Joe, that is something about the McMenamin connection. Mike and Brian seem to have done pretty well for themselves, and have certainly given me good places to spend my time. They generate a profoundly good vibe.

OK, it's now 1:45AM PST. My buddy who is a professional in the
audio field (live sound reinforcement and studio production) came by to be my ears whilst I moved things around some more. We started by giving the system a critical audition. Next thing we did was go to Pure Direct and cut the sub, leaving the '22s on their own with the crossover still active at 80. Played with postition, then tried the crossover at 60. The results were stunning! These little babies, placed properly, were Superb! The difference between the (recommended) 80 and 60 points was reveletory. I would recommend everyone at least try the CO at 60 with the '22s.
Next, cut in the sub. Moved it out until the back of the cab
was 18" from the rear wall. Bass tightened up considerably. Now, though, we had a db bump in the low mids. Moved the mains out from the side walls to (again) roughly 18" and the
curve flattened out. Wow. No EQ at all. Critical audition again with the same music and all of our nitpicks had disappeared. Now, 5.1. Moving the TV stand back to it's normal position 6" from the rear wall just about solved the VP150's farting problem. Faster relief than Beano. Moving it back and forth atop the TV took care of residual gasiness. Saving Private Ryan in 5.1 = Bwaareeeeaarrrrrggghhhh!

Interesting. Being that the '150 isn't ported, I didn't expect
proximity to the rear wall to be much of an issue. Experimentation proved me wrong. I hope more 5.1 newbies somehow find this thread, and Alan's article!

Quick Honey-"Teriyaki" chicken

1 Package chicken thighs (or as many as you need)
Honey, warmed, mixed 1:1 with soy sauce.

Lightly salt and more heavily pepper thighs
Set up a grill for indirect heating. On a Weber-style grill,
use a chimmey full of charcoal, preferably real mesquite woodcharcoal (you don't use fluid, now, do
you?) and make a pile on each side of the coal grate (newer ones can come with little "fences" to hold the coal on each side). A drip pan should go in between the coal. No liquid, please. Leave top ven wide open, close bottom vents maybe halfway.

Place chicken skin side up betwixt the coal. Close lid and cook for ~30 minutes, until temp of chicken is 140F. Baste with honey/soy mix a couple of times.

When t=130, turn thighs skin side down and place over coals.
Cook until skin is crisp, another 5 minutes or so.

Remove, baste with honey mixture and sprinke sesame seeds on
top. Makes a great appetizer/party snack.

Mark

PS: Look for the Axiom/Hsu subwoofer showdown Saturday evening in the Home Theater forum. I can't wait to lock 'n'
load tomorrow!

I know I can trust a brisket recipe that says it's done when you can cut it with a coax cable!

I wrote:

In reply to:
I think that the biggest change you'll find in positioning is moving it further and closer to the wall.

And then YOU wrote:

In reply to:
I didn't expect proximity to the rear wall to be much of an issue. Experimentation proved me wrong.

Ummmmm-
Do I get a beer to go with my chili?

To clarify, I thought this before I read your and others' advice. I am but the grasshopper.

>>Critical audition again with the same music and all of our nitpicks had disappeared. Now, 5.1. Moving the TV stand back to it's normal position 6" from the rear wall just about solved the VP150's farting problem. Faster relief than Beano. Moving it back and forth atop the TV took care of residual gasiness. Saving Private Ryan in 5.1 = Bwaareeeeaarrrrrggghhhh! Interesting. Being that the '150 isn't ported, I didn't expect proximity to the rear wall to be much of an issue.

So, one last request. Can you go over to GeneticDrift's house and set up *his* VP150 ? Make us all happy

Thanks to all for the input. Problem solved. I am now VERY happy with the 150, as well as the entire setup. Prost (you can't see me lifting my Jack 'n' Coke to my monitor)!