I love my M22's. I really do. But I lay awake at night wondering if I should have gone with the M60's. Mostly because the M60 Posse is out there, all the time, sending signals to my brain. So, some questions:
Is it twice the speaker for twice the price?
Will I lose transparency or detail?
I would imagine the soundstage would be larger, although the M22 is just suprising in its ability to produce a good soundstage. So does the M60 really step up here?
Can I move in with you when my wife finds out? I'll feed you BBQ and Italian!
I am especially interested in hearing from folks who have or have had both speakers. Please help before I have to buy a lead helmet!
Mark
You know you want the M50s.
I want the M50's too. Let's start the M50 posse!
How big is your room again ?
Never heard M22s but I went from M2s to M60s because I wanted speakers I could run without a sub. Playing at normal volumes, in a medium sized room, with a sub there is surprisingly little difference between M2s and M60s and probably even less between M22s and M60s.
If you're sitting well back, playing real loud, or want to run without a sub then you have to get at least M50s
OK guys; saddle up, let's ride, we're on a roll now. Remember the good ol' days when M3 was the darling of the Axiom set. Let's bring M50 up to that point of prominence! Yo Ho! Onward!
Oops, sorry, don't mean to hijack the post; a posse is supposed to be full of good guys, not post rustlers. But hey, we gotta good cause here.
15x12x9. Hardwoods. Coved ceilings. The M22's are phenomenal speakers, don't get me wrong. I mean, I am constantly amazed by them. I just wonder, you know. And I do like the idea of listening sessions without a sub as well. You hear the M22 and the surprisingly large soundstage they produce, and an alarm goes off in your head: "If the '22s can do this, what can the M60's do?" I have listened to the '22s without the subwoofer and they are flat out performers. Until you get to that 60Hz mark. The sub makes up for that lack, to be sure. I would like to think that after my well-documented efforts at blending the EP350 into my aural sphere I have it as well blended as I can. But I also think an integrated tower speaker such as the M60 would be even more smooth in it's integration of mid-low and low tones. I run the '22s with the crossover at 60Hz. Most people suggest running the CO at 80 with the 22. But the sheer tone quality of the sound is much more well rounded in the region between 80 and 60Hz when the '22s are handling that slice of the spectrum, so to speak. That is what I would like down to 40Hz at least, and I keep thinking I can have the best of both worlds with the M60's.
Hey Mark, we need to get out the lassos and round this M50 posse up
I can't speak for the M22's, but I have heard they are fabulous speakers. I also have the Denon 2805 and my M60's sound freaking unbelievable. I'm sure the sound stage, detail, transparency, etc. would be just fine, if not better. Not sure what your room conditions are, as the M60's will be bigger, but they aren't over bearing.
ps: I stay up at night wondering if I should have got the M80's
Mansfield Beech m60's vp150 ep350 4-qs8's
Denon 2805
Sanyo PLV-Z2 WXGA projector
Toshiba P.S. DVD Player
Samsung OTA HD receiver
I forgot to ask the most obvious question -- music or HT. For HT I don't think I would have bothered with the m60s, but for music it's REALLY nice being able to turn off the sub and just enjoy the mains.
Having said that, now that I have a decent AV receiver the M2 + sub combination sounds MUCH better on music than before. You know what, I don't think I'm really helping at all...
The M50 posse is gonna be hard to catch, they sleep well at night since there's no upgrade path to lose sleep over. Har, Har, Har. The M50 is as good as it gets, (at least in the pleasant class)
I have both the M60 and the 22's. You will love the M60's. What you are gaining is the low end. The 22's are very detailed and you WILL find that in the M60's. I really have to warn you that these are not speakers you can "spring" on the wife. They are about 6x the size of the 22's so if you are planning on sneaking them in with the hopes they will somehow blend in, you have a fight in your near future.
Anyway, good luck with the speaker selection and with the wife.
Now one problem I have never brought up. I was moving my M60's the other day. I have hard wood floors as well so I had to use the rubber feet that are supplied with the speakers. First off, the rubber feet smell like plastic ass (sorry of the wording, it was the best one to describe the smell). When I moved the speakers I noted that there were black rings left on my nice hardwood floor. I tried to wipe it off but I really had to work at it with some cleaner to get the rings out. I know, minor to some, but if those speakers were allowed to sit for monthes and monthes, I wonder how minor it would be?
I've had both. The M22 plus sub is very nice sounding. It's probably better than 90% of what people have heard.
However the M60s are better. They have a fuller soundstage and more midrange presence.
I was so happy with my M22s if I had to stick with them I'd be happy. However I dropped plans for a fancy custom console, giving me room for M60s.
Don't worry about your M22s. They are fantastic sounding speakers.
Get some SACD or DVD-A surround music and enjoy the speakers you have.
OTOH if money and space are no problem, you don't lose anything with the M60 but space and dollars.
Hmm... Many of you will know from my previous posts that my wife is quickly becoming a fan of higher-end audio. She never comes into my workroom so she really had not heard my ancient tube amp and speakers I have in here. But she now is elbowing me out of the living room on occasion to listen to her favorite cd's on the Denon/Axiom system. I don't think the '60s would be too hard of a sell. Criminy. Someone may have to swear me in as a deputy in the Posse soon. One more member to do battle with the growing M50 Posse. I'm writing this on a short break while watching LOTR-TTT. I can only but imagine what the '60s would sound like, being that the '22s are fabulous. But I really would like a speaker that can stand on its own withous a sub. As mentioned in my previous post, the '22s are simply great down to that 60Hz mark. I want to have my cake and eat it too! I already find myself doing more critical listening on the new setup than the ancient tube setup. Although this whole thing may be putting me on a slippery slope...
You may be doing yourself and the M60 posse a favor by listning to your M22s on your new system, rather than tubes. If instead you were listening to M3s on a tube set you may well have fallen into the seductive allure of that well documented "match made in heaven." That slippery slope may have lead you into the obvious M3 upgrade, the truly near stand alone M50. You might then be coming over to the growing M50 posse instead!
In the interest of jerking us back to the subject - why haven't you ordered the M60s yet?
Laying awake at night thinking about them is a blatant case of upgradeitis. I WILL NOT be cured with drugs. The M60s are the only cure. This advice is from a grizzled veteran of the "what if" wars of the '90s.
you could always see if there is someone out in the Portland, OR area that would demo some m60's for you and your wife.
Yes.
No.
Yes.
No, but thanks anyway.
Order up already. You know you want to. You won't be sorry.
We'll get bigjohn to swear you in.
(Ray3)In the interest of jerking us back to the subject - why haven't you ordered the M60s yet?
He's realy laying awake thinking about those M50's
The '22s are on my main system. Haven't played them through the tubes. My dad (with my "help") built the tube amps from a kit in 1975 when I was 7. They push a whopping 7 watts each. They are hooked on 1 side to an Onkyo preamp from around the same time (PA-100? the badge on back is faded almost completely) and on the other end to an even older pair of ADS Speaker Labs (no model number I can find) speakers. The speakers have an 8-inch woofer and a horn each. When I pulled the fuses for the woofers I found that the horns handle the high-mids and highs and the woofer handle the rest. The setup really sounds great. BUT it, well, it's a colored sound. I really notice this now in comparison to the Denon/Axiom setup. The tubes are warmer, mellower while the other setup is just plain more detailed and transparent. And to be honest, I can't tell you which I like better. I've only had the tube setup for 5 months, since my Dad died. But I listened to that thing from when I was 7 until I went off to college. Before the new system, I had an H/K Pro Logic setup that I mostly used for music listening. I bought it along with a "Home Theater" series RCA vcr in 1994-ish. I never was all that impressed with the
quality of the surround experience with the original Pro-Lo, hence my late arrival on the 5.1 scene. But I am now (obviously) a convert.
Considering our alleged M50 posse contains 3 members so far... I think we're a little outnumbered. I'm sure MD55 will join us, but too many have gone to the dark side (or worse...). Neverhappy, SutterCane...
I'm toying with the idea of joining you. I started doing some A/B testing between my M2s and Paradigm Atoms (aka the bedroom system). Still seems to me that the Axioms are way more accurate (pianos sound like pianos, string bass sounds like a string bass, and you can actually hear the little dangly things on the snare drums (are they called "snares" ?) doing their thing) there's something really "pleasing" about the Paradigms.
I don't think the P's are "better" as much as "maybe they have the same frequency response quirks as the speakers used to mix some of the albums" but there's something going on there. On the best recordings it's a no-brainer -- the M2s walk all over the Atoms -- but on the so-so recordings I would probably give the nod to the Atoms.
Seems to me that if it were possible to split the difference between the accuracy of the M2/M22/M60s and the "pleasantness" of the Paradigms & similar sounding speakers you would have something mighty fine. Starting to wonder if that's what the M3/M40/M50 family delivers -- great sound on a wider range of recordings without giving up too much on the best recordings.
Anyways, I'm going to experiment some more before doing anything drastic but it's something to think about.
I may be wrong, but it could be the force is with us. Mark today as an important date; The true word may start being heard. (or maybe not) At any rate, maybe by keeping interest up in the pleasant class of speakers, perhaos we won't be orphans quite so soon. But Yes, the list of departees is somewhat disheartning.
Rich
Alright! Welcome Mr. B, even if it is only conditional at the moment, it's very encouraging to find others interested in furthuring our cause, or at least expressing interest. I can't help but think that there lots of folks out there who want a speaker that is neither warm nor cold, foreward or laid back (ours isn't laid-back, rather "relaxed or "eastgoing" is more accurate) I could go on. Anyway, we hope...
Welcome to the cause.
Rich
(bridgman...Starting to wonder if that's what the M3/M40/M50 family delivers -- great sound on a wider range of recordings without giving up too much on the best recordings.)
Ya Ya that's it
Yup, I think that's it! Well said.
I think it's what was understood on the Axiom forums a few years ago but was somehow forgotten. Maybe we can just remind all those who read these posts of what were once very significant members of the Axiom family.
They deserve better than the coverage they've gotten of late.
Rich
Hi, BlueStater:
The M50 M60 question is cool, but what you have going with your fathers' tube set is actually more fasinating. I grew up with tubes in the 50s and 60s and to this day have a warm spot for them. (6.3V heaters made all the tubes hot, of course) But yes, you're correct, they do have a warm, even comfortable sound to them. I've looked at a few tube amps in the last few years, but just haven't taken the plunge yet. However, you have one with a history that you can relate to and that makes it all the more special.
There have been a number of reviews of tube sets on the Soundstage network, for example, that use the Axiom M3 as a reference monitor and they are thought of very highly. The're not terribly expensive but they sound great and they have no problem at all handling 7 watts and below. There are others on this forum that use M3s with tubes also and have voiced their enthusiasm for the match-up. Your amp with M3s in a stereo only configuration could be a real winner, reguardless of what you end up doing with your home theater set-up. At any rate your tube amp with the Onkyo preamp sounds too good to just set aside, I'm glad to hear you're using it. That kind of history deserves to be preserved.
Your Dad would be pleased.
Rich
In reply to:
We'll get bigjohn to swear you in
i think its a bad idea to put me in any position of officialness..?
but, hell yea.. get some 60's. wait, what was the question?
bigjohn
Yeah, it's a neat little setup. Maybe someday I'll pick up a pair of M3's. I still have to go through the box of tubes and other parts Dad had in his office. Hopefully there is some sort of manual in there for the amps. I will need to learn about biasing, etc. At least I think I will. I believe most tubes need to be biased when installed. From the look of the tube boxes, they are as old as the amps. I think he said once he bought the spares from an electronics shop that was closing down. I do remember that my old tube bass amp (Mesa Boogie Bass 400) had like 8 6550 output stage tubes and a few 7ax7 (?) preamp stage tubes. When I got the tubes changed, the bill had "biasing" as a line item. Now I'm sure the output tubes on these aren't anything near a 6550 or even a 6L6 or EL34 (common tubes in guitar amps) but I haven't really looked yet. Just been listening. Hope the spares last a good long time, though. They are Sylvanias, and from past experience with the bass amp I know quality tubes are getting hard to come by. The replacement tubes for my bass amp were "matched" Sovtek tubes. The local amp wizard (every reasonable-sized town has one of these guys who lives on the edge of town in a little house on a bunch of land and seem to know everything there is about every amplifier ever made) said the Sovteks are good tubes but you have to go through them individually to sort out the bad ones then match sets together before installing them. This is due to the legendarily bad QA in Soviet-era factories.
Oh Yeah, You're hooked now.
Tubes are actually alive little critters and once they know you're interested, they've got you. They demand involvement, real "care and feeding" kind of stuff. It appears you'd stumbled into their trap many years ago, (like 30) so you've already got lots of usefull experence to build on.
Get a good VTVM and some tweeking rods and have fun!
Rich
That's right,forgot about him, I didn't call him "the amp wizzard", but could have, it fits. He lived just up the hill from us and worked on everything tubes. His shop had a special smell, one I remember from the Navy working on,Yup, Tube electronics. Can you imagine tube COMPUTERS? Not just the soviets but us too!
He was a good old dude, last time I saw him was in the late 70s, my Dad gave him a Halicrafters short-wave set that needed attention, unfortunately he died before getting it back in shape-wonder whatever happened to that thing.
Anyway, thanks for setting me down this stretch of memory lane.
There was another place in Seattle when we were in drydock...
Rich