A couple of things have transpired on these threads within the last few days which completely upset that which I thought was True and Right with the (audio) world, and is causing great anguish in my new speaker purchase, Such as...

All axiom speakers sound pretty much alike after all. And my new speakers of choice are missing some fairly important information in those areas critical to my new accoustically challenged listening areas desireability.

I still love the sound of my M3s, but I'm of the impression there could be better?-that's hard to believe.

Thanks to Randys' poll, I know you are there, all 120+ of you, and that's enough for a pretty good data base (or is it Bass?). So, a couple of questions if you please:

You don't need to answer if the response to either of the following is "No". I'll assume that you have no concerns in these areas. I don't know if some if these problems have been reduced thru running-changes so, if you could give me an idea of how long you've had your speakers?

I've read that a few of you have had problems with sibilance; have You?

I've also read that some of you have Ear Fatigue. For what reason? (reflective room, whatever)

Some of you have complained that, even though it has been reported on numerous reviews and posts that while the M60 is Somewhat Foreward, that the M60 is actually Too Foreward. Do any of you find this a major concern?

I know the majority of you are happy with your speakers, you have been collectively reminding me of that every day and every day again. ...and again. Very compelling; great user reviews and comparisons and almost gushing testimonials, By Gosh, I've been Brainwashed here!? (Or is it that dang M60 Posse?)

so then, Anybody not happy? Why?

Thanks in advance for your responces,(with hat-in-hand)

Rich.

P.S. Please respond, I'm pulling the trigger on my new speaker order Next Week!!

I'll kick this off. I have M60s, M2s, VP100 and Paradigm Atoms. Have owned Quads, Rogers LS3/5a and KEFs in the past.

Bought the M2s first. Never felt them to be bright (in fact I loved the sound from the moment they came out of the box) but I did find them really edgy at first. That went away after a few days, probably will never know if that was brain adjusting or drivers breaking in.

Bought the M60s after the M2s. Relative to the M2s I found the 60s to be quite mellow... probably because the extended bass made the sound more balanced.

In my bedroom upstairs (very live walls, 13x17, blinds rather than drapes) there might be a bit of ear fatigue. In the rec room downstairs (13x23, heavy drapes, lots of furniture) there's not a hint of fatigue -- if anything I would probably tweak the treble up a bit if I could.

I haven't found the 60s (or the 2s) to introduce sibilance where there is none on other speakers, but on any recording where you hear sibilance on other speakers I guess you might hear a bit more on the M60s. I think the way to think about it is that the M3s probably reduce a bit of sibilance in the recordings, not that the 60s introduce it.

Bottom line; I don't think this is a "good or bad" situation. The M2/M22/M60/M80 family will sound a bit more "clear" than the M3/M40/M50 family, but if there are bad things on the recording the bad things will be more clear just like the good things.

I guess one question is "what would you most like to improve about the M3s ?". If you're looking for great bass, smoother/more open sound at high volumes etc... then M50s will give you all that and more -- if you wish there was a bit more "clarity" sometimes then the M60s will add that but will probably expose a few more warts in your music collection.

My first thought would be that it's probably easier to go with 60s and make them sound like 50s with room treatments than it is to go the other way. The difference is supposed to be fairly subtle, a good example being the M50 vs. M22 comparison :

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ST&Number=47919&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

Also :

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=HT&Number=78117&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=50%2022%20which&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1year&Main=77752

Wow, thank you for your quick responce, just what I'm looking for and just as I'd hoped.

Your comment about the M60s being mellower than the M2s is interesting. (The freq plot Ian posted in December shows the M60s to be very flat, I wonder if there was a running-change reciently?)

Your "Ear Fatigue" statement makes good sense. Good answer, good answer!

Ditto on the sibilance question. I like that!

As to how I would improve the M3s; On axis they're great, but after Alans' comment about off-axis first reflections being low on the M50s,I got to listening to my M3s to the side and found that yes, they do seem to fall off maybe a little sooner than I guess I would have expected. (without much realy to compare them to) So I guess what I need is a speaker with better dispersion characteristics than the M3s.

Your last comment pretty well sums it up. If the M60 sounds closer to the M50 than I had been led to believe over these last few years, then the M60 sure seems to be the way to go at this point.

Thank you so very much for your quick responce!

Rich.

Yeow, how did this get so W-I-D-E-?
Is it wide for everyone else, or is it just me? Did I do something wrong or what?

If it's not wide for everyone else, please disreguard this post.

If it is wide for all, how do I STOP IT?!!

The long link is what is making the post so wide. To fix it, put the link inside the [url] tag.

The code: [*url=http://www.example.com] text that will appear as a link[/url*]

Looks like this:
text that will appear as a link

* delete the asterisk when you make links, I put it in so that it wouldn't be valid code and you could see what I did.

edit: Link to BBCode descriptions

Awright, thanks so much for the assist, looks much better now!
You wouldn't have any comments about M60s, would ya?

Thanks again,
Rich.

Hey Rich,

The M60's rule. Buy them. Now.

Seriously, in about a year of heavy use, I have not perceived any of the negative traits you mention. On the contrary, I find them to be both full and detailed. I'm happy as a clam.

Perhaps if we could swap MRI scans of our ears, that might tell us if my experience is relevant to yours. But I doubt it.

One way to find out.

[/spurs and chaps]I reckon that we're gonna hafta mosey on over to ol' Rich's spread and hep him unnerstand the true virtue of the M60.

Traitor!

Dear M60 AND M50 Posse's

WHEN YER ON A FENCE IT HURTS YER...uh..OUCH!!!

Traitor; No traitor, Alan told us of missing reflections: I,
I paniced! My M3s are wimping out in my new listening room!
It'a weird room, reflective brick fireplace to my immidiate
left and fifteen feet of nothing to the Wifes' right. I
need an M50 to the left and an M60 to the right!
Wat'l I do, wat'l I do?
SeewhatImean? Both speakers sound "about" the same, right?
Just have to determine which is best In My Room.

Until a few days ago I thought there was a big difference
between the two speaker types, now it appears there are more
similarities than I had expected. If an M60 can be quite
mellow in relation to an M2, why, that sounds uh, rather
"pleasant"

If, in fact, as it seems, the M60 can be both clean and
detailed, but not have all the badness I had read about
on so many of these posts-and they work best in my room...

Historicaly I prefer a warmer speaker-like the M3; but it's
beginning to sound like the M60 isn't really that much
cooler. So, I'm on the fence...OUCH!

Thanks For The Inputs!
(oh, gosh, which horse to saddle?)

Rich.

Rich,
Just order the M60's and marvel in the great purchase!
You can always return them if you are not satisfied (which I doubt). I have listened to a lot of good and bad speakers in my day. These Axioms certainly surprise a lot of people (namely an associate who sells Bose, Polk, PSB, Sony etc.) He was shocked to say the least when he heard my M60's
Good luck in your search.

Whoops, sorry about that. Forgot that F107 was an "almost M50-er".

The M60s are bright, annoying and make a constant "ssssss" noise whenever you turn on the amp. My ears get tired just looking at them.

Seriously, I think the M2s and M60s have almost the same response above 100 Hz -- just that having some decent bass really filled out the sound and made it sound more mellow.

Sounds like your new listening room is just too big for M3s. I would say think back to the old room. If they were fine there then 50s will probably sound great in the new room. If you would like a bit more "crispness and clarity" the M60s will give you that.

What shop sell Bose, PSB, Sony, and Polk all in the same building?

Seriously, he can pick whatever he wants... no skin off my nose! I just think it's funny that he was the loudest M50 proponent, having never heard them, and now he's thinking M60!

Hi guys-right you are, I deserved those responces.

A history of Axiom, compressed and maybe a bit one sided:

In the beginning, of the new Millenium, the M3 was king,
cost was important to what seemed the majority of forum
members. The logical step-up was to the M40-which was well
respected, and of course the M50. The M22 came out and had
a couple of warts; a long break-in was noted on one review
when Ian said that a few hours was sufficient.(this cast
doubt of ear break-in instead) another review listed
sibilence as a problem; Warmer electronics was suggested.
Nobody, in any of the reviews had anything but positive
things to say about the M3, and there were a dozen reviews
throughout numerous on-line publications. They were even
used as a reference monitor for comparing other speakers
and electronics.-it was cool.

Anyway, up until reciently the M50 was the obvious update
to the M3, the M40 was still ok in many eyes, but the M50
was a bit better-Alan even posted that the "M50 has quite
a bit more clarity and detail than the M40, but not quite
as much as the M60". That's good. Now to the present:

Look at the Axiom web site and see how the M40 and M50 are
presented. A new viewer of the site would in no way even
consider a purchase of either! Alan also stated, or perhaps
suggested, that the M40 may be eliminated(with just a little
reading between the lines) in a post questioning the missing
Epic 40 package. Enter the M60:

The M60, im my eyes had a rocky road to travel, many folks
had the complaints I'd voiced comments about, maybe they
were one in a hundred, but they were there and they cast
doubts, at least in me. Then Ian gave us the plots in
December showing the M60 in a much better light. Was the
M60 updated reciently to bring it to a flatter less
foreward state? It dosen't have the classic low bass/high
treble plot of a foreward speaker. Does the plot look any
different than a year ago? Don't know, never saw one. If it
always looked like that then I owe the M60 a great appology
as it's a really nifty "looking" plot!

Then Alan made his "Missing First Reflections" post...and
the M50 suddenly looks less like it belongs in my system,
right when I'm defending the beseiged M50 the most!!

Now dosen't That make a person feel silly??

Bottom line-to me anyway-the M50 looses some, the M60 gains
some and I'm in the middle. Rats, what's next?


Sittin on the fence

Rich

hi , whay i can see whit the choice of m50 or m60, depend of what floor you have in your room, take m50 whit wood floor ! and m60 whit carpet floor ! what you do you thing !!!!!

Rich,

I liked your compressed history of Axiom.

I won't add anything except to say that the M60ti has not been modified in any manner whatsoever since I joined Axiom three years ago. At that time, I did extended A/B listening comparisons to all of the Axioms (except the M1), in mono, stereo, and 5.1-channel configurations with and without subs.

When I heard the M60ti, I stood up, raised my arms, and in preacher fashion, pronounced it essentially perfect. "Don't touch it!", I said. "It has perfect spectral (tonal) balance."

Regards,

Hi! Willso and Alan;

We have carpeted floors, so that's one more solid vote for
M60! Thank you for your input; makes sense.


No changes in three years? Not even a little x-over change?
Oh darn, I was hoping that all that double-blind testing
caused at least a little change reciently to get rid of some
of the (few) complaints I'd read about in these posts. Oh
well, I guess you can't argue with perfection.

Good description of a near-religious event though, I can
easily visualize the Rev. Mr. Lofft making an epic
proclomation to the assembled flocks. How could I argue
against such furvor?

Your comment about the First Reflections a few days ago did
a lot to push me toward the M60 and away from the M50. I
have a listening room that needs all the help it can get.
I still have a "warm" spot fot the M50 design, but the M60
may be the better bet.(a ten to one ratio of M60 to M50 is
also hard to ignore) ALL those M60 owners can't be wrong.
It does seem a bit strange to realize that the "What If"
syndrome will apply to the less expensive less complex
design. I do like my M3s however, and hope that the M60s
don't sound TOO different. The word on the street is that
they actually sound quite similar, that'd be good.

Well, that's two more votes for the M60 with no decenting
comments so far. And I guess these aging ears could stand
some additional "crispness and clarity" too. So...

Thank you for the additional inputs, much appreciated.

Rich.

F107,

Take it from a guy who went from having two M60s and a reciever sitting on the floor in the middle of an empty room with hardwood floors for a few months, to having some carpet, drapes, and furniture in the room. In an empty room, the high end was greatly enhanced. As the "soft" stuff got put back into the room, the high end softened along with it.

sibilance? not really. I have (while messing with my sub) managed to end up with too little bass, giving the appearance of a borderline sibilant sound to them. I often wonder if some folks who have the brightness/sibilance issues just have a bad room that dampens the low & mid ranges too much. If you remove those, the highs might seem out of line. They would be.

To me the cymbals, chimes, flutes, and those clocks (and money) on Pink FLoyd DSOTM are just as loud, clear, and "bright" on my M60s as they are in real life. Not louder, not altered in any way. The same. Just right.

The only thing that just slightly (and I mean very slightly) bothers me is that they seem to be a little sensitive to placement and positioning. Too close or too far from the wall behind them can cause emphasized or lost bass. (Maybe all speakers are like this?) Too much, or too little toe in can cause a "confusing" image, or no image at all. No worries now - I have measurements, and I know how to use them! I can tell immediately when an M60 has been moved by as much as 1/4" when I listen from my seat.

Ear fatigue? only once. I don't care how cute she is, hip hop is now banned at my place.

I am 100% happy with mine.

"Ear fatigue? only once. I don't care how cute she is, hip hop is now banned at my place."


!!!!!

Hi Michael; Thanks for the response.

One thing in particular makes a very good point! Do the
sounds we hear everyday sound the same on the speakers or do they sound "Like Speakers" Yes! Better to sound like
the real thing. Good point.

Our livingroom is carpeted and well stocked with the "soft
stuff" We do however have a brick fireplace on one side
which will have to be treated to some "softening-up" to
keep the current reflections under control, but with a
large open area to the other side, so reflections should
not be a problem in that direction.

So, no sibilance, and usually no ear fatigue, unless...
cool, Then a good test disc and rat shack meter to help
with positioning, which could be critical, should then do
the trick. Outstanding!

AND 100% happy, Who could ask for more?

Thanks for the good info, another vote for M60.
Thanx
Rich

Matt,
There is a local electronics store (privately owned) that has been in the area for about 30+ years. I have purchased most of my electronics from them over the years as they will usually match the chain store prices. Besides, when you live in a small town I try to support local merchants.

Everyone wants to ultimately join the club.....admit it!!!!

Maybe someday we will let the M60 Posse associate with us...but not today!

Thats very interesting. A local dealer around here would never touch Bose and the like.

Answering the orignal questions:

Happy? Yes, I'm happy. Very happy. I have two front speakers for life. They are that good. Although, I deserted the home theater/5.1 for better two channel equipment with M60s (can't afford both). My stereo is in a "bright" room.

Sibilance? I no longer have sibilance after upgrading to a tube amp and tube buffered cd player. Amazing stuff. The Axioms are able to bring out brilliant, wide range detail in all frequency phases with the right equipment feeding them. I now hear more detail and I've heard lower frequences which I thought not possible (see Everything But the Girl - 'Walking Wounded' cd, first track).

Forward? Not forward but then again I don't mind forward. Again, after experiencing the Axioms with different levels of equipment, I can assure you it is not this speaker that creates a too forward or a too bright sound.

Which is best speaker? I'd say the M22s are the best although a sub is needed. M60s provide nearly what the M22s provide but with amazing bass. The clarity and detail of the M22s is amazing but perhaps that is only noticeable because of lower bass. I don't know but I loved the M22s. Without a sub, they are the perfect bedroom speaker, imo.

To have "Speakers For Life" is without question the ultimate
complement anyone could make concerning their speakers. You
needen't have said anything furthur (But I'm glad you did!)

OK then. No sibilance in a "Bright" room but with Tube
gear. Makes sense, they'd balance out, and sound good.

"Foreward" Interestingly enough, I've not had a Foreward speaker, so I don't know if I'd like them or not! I'd read
in the past that Foreward was "Bad" and just kinda taken that as a Truth, or maybe an axiom or something. So for all
I know it may not be a problem at all.

Well then, another batch of good comments on the M60s! It
dosen't come as a supprise I suppose, considering the
overwelming popularity of them in the receint poll!

I thank you very much for your input and hope that you
continue to enjoy your speakers as much as I hope to enjoy
mine.

Thank you once again;
Rich.

It took me a long time to respond to the M80Posse; Just the
word "posse" brings back uncomfortable feelings and supreme
embarrassment that are associated with the word "Posse"

However, getting that all behind me, joining the M80 club is
impossible at this time. For one thing my listening room is
way too small;4000 cu.ft and up are required, my area is not
up to it at only 3900 cu.ft. Additionally, my new
receiver won't handle 4ohms. (although Audioholics tested
its' predessesor reciently and found that it drove HIS M80s
with no problems) the receiver still is rated for only 6ohm

So, no way could I even conceive of getting M80s at this
time. See?

But I'm sure the M80s are fine speakers though, Fine
Speakers.

Anyway, enjoy your...uh, do you have a set of M80s, or are
you, like me, mearly a charter member of the posse? If so,
watch your step until you actually have the speakers-you
never never know...

Until another day, but not today;
Rich.

Unless I get a disgustingly huge room, I don't think I'll go M80's anytime soon. NOW what I do grin at them for, is whole house audio... You know, a pair in the family room, living room, den, maybe one in the stairwell landing... just sound everywhere

and Grille's off baby!

- D

Yeah; whole house is cool!!

We just moved into this house so I haven't got a whole lot
done here yet. I almost got sounds in the kitchen until I
learned that my old HTIB wouldn't fit in the top of the
pantry-with the speakers out, of course-well, it would have
fit, but I couldn't open the cd rack to change the tunes!

Can you imagine what size of an amp it would take to run
about ten M80s around the house-AT THE SAME TIME!!
My poor Onkyo would be reduced to cinders straight away. My
old one, as well as the new one I haven't even gotten yet!

But yeah, whole house sure would be fun.
Another project for another time.

Rich.

If I did that, I'd grab a 7 x 200 Rotel or Sherbourne amp, or maybe a bunch of mono block amps from Outlaw...

- D

Now you're talkin'

I was thinkin.. if I could lower the freq range by a factor
of a coupla thou, of using a Klystron to power those bad
boys!!!

Yup, a solid megawatt or so would do it!

Just have to figure out how to keep the walls in place and
the house more or less where it is.

Gotta admit though, your way IS more realistic.(lol)

Rich.

if anyone is looking for a whole house amp, good bets would be:
Sherbourn 16 channel or
Sherbourn 12 channel or
B&K 12 channel

Uh, no question, those could lead to some serious fun!

Or some equally serious highly negative WAF numbers!!

Oh well,
Dreamin's free;
Rich.

While we're talking about whole-house sound, wonder how many rooms you can share a subwoofer across ?

Maybe an EP600 and a whole whack of M22s...

Uh...the one in the living room does a pretty good job of
shaking the, uh...whole house, but, um...

No, that's not what you mean, Huh?

Actually, no idea, really. Good question though.
Rich.