I am planning on buying a pair of M60's in the near future, so I was wondering if you M60 owners out there can help me figure out a good pair of speaker cables to match with it. I hear that all of the Axiom line is slightly forward sounding. So I was looking for something on the warm side like the Cardas Quadlink. Any suggestions?

P.S.- I have a Denon 3802 receiver that would be driving the M60's.

If you do a general search in the forums for speaker wire or speaker cable you will find plenty of info already discussed quite recently on this topic.

To keep things short, don't waste your money. Buy some decent 10,12 or 14awg (depending on the length of your wire run) speaker cable from local vendors that suits your budget and save your $1000 for components like those extra Axiom QS8s, nice stands, new listening couch, etc.

You can find Ultralink 12awg speaker cable for a buck a foot or less (Cdn) as one example.

i sell a conditioned unidirectional wire for 15$ us a foot
fully burned in with your choice of connectors-8 colors available-(i start with home depot 12 gauge wire then perform some voodoo with my secret electronic conditioner- age for 6-8 months- find a sucker-sell them)
i can put you on my waiting list if you want-that only cost 50$ for application fee(i check were my babies go)lol
if you want to bi-wire use the power cord thats 12 gauge by 4 wires works nice -only 70 cents a foot-and you only have one wire on the floor for each speaker
i tried the onix brand it was a joke(sp100)

buy phoenix gold 12 or 10 ga. at absolute most, buy kimber 4pr.

Hello Bestboy4
I agree with Chesseroo and Polara, buy a quality 12 or 14 ga.
wire and save your money for system upgrades. By the way Polara, I age my wire in an oak barrel filled with ginseng root and goat tripe for about 13 months, you might want to give that a try.

CAV104

Hello Bestboy4
Forgot to mention it, I have a pair of 60,s with 12 ga. they sound awesome.

CAV104

Aww guys!!

I am soooo disappointed!

You don't know nuttin about exotic speaker wire! If you really want the absolute finest sounding wire on this side of the solar system, then here is what you do (and you are not gonna believe this, I swear):

Run down to a professional electrican's supply store (not a home improvement slug store) see if they can order this: Cryonix 10 gage dual tetrahedoned laced hyperstranded 3 conductor solid litz silvo-copper wire with dynapolymer shielded insulation. This is the same stuff used for a lot of the high tech witing on the Space Shuttle. It is made by a speciality company that is a subsidiary of General Electric that is under contract to General Dynamics and NASA. Believe it or not, in a run of 200 feet, this stuff not only has absolutely NO signal loss, a resistance and capacitance that is so low, it is unmeasurable, and get this: it actually INCREASES the signal strength if the runs are less that 75ft! Steven Hawking said "It its the closest thing to perfect I have ever heard" And let me tell you , that is testimonial enough for me! If you can get the federal government discount, it will only cost you about $650/foot. A truly great deal, I assure you. Connected between my M60s and my Emerson 3.5wpc clock radio,I swear I am listening to a Macintosh 2250wpc power amplifier! NO Kidding! You just gotta try this stuff!

Get some!

Randyman

Hey Randyman,
$650/foot! What a bargain and I only need 160'. BTW what type of projects do you PM?

CAV104

Hello Bestboy4,
All kidding aside, read some of the previous posts about this topic. What you might want to try is this, first, pick up a decent brand of 12Ga.and give it a listen for awhile, second, order on line monster cable or whatever you decide and give it a listen, if you don't hear a difference you can return the cable since you bought it on line.

CAV104

Hey CAV104,

Laughed out loud here. Love the aging process in goat tripe and ginseng root. I don't have any goat tripe but I do have some goat cheese (it's great except for the goaty after-taste). Would that work okay? And after I seasoned my Home Depot 12-gauge in the cheese, I could eat it (the cheese, that is)!

Regards,

Ooh the sarcasm abounds in here eh?

Hey Alan,
Glad I could lighten up your day.

CAV104

Sorry folks I had a typo. Meant to say $650/ft Canadian! (I think that comes out to about $86.75 American!)

CAV104 - I do PM for design and construction projects.


Randyman

So you all are telling me that some generic Home Depot wire is as good as enginered speaker wire? I don't think so.

Maybe I didn't explain my question as well as i thought I did. There are some cables out there that can seem bright or warm. Some speakers out there can sound bright or warm. My question then is not about the gauge of the wire. My question is are the axiom m60's bright or forward sounding, and should I buy a cable like the Cardas Quadlink (known for its warm and laid-back sound) to compensate the overall sound in order to make it more neutral?

Hello Bestboy4,
I can only give you my opinion on the 60's, to me they are clean and natural sounding, the bass is tight and the mids, vocals and highs are clear and crisp. They are not an in your face speaker. In so far as the cable selection is concerned, well, whatever floats your boat. While we are on the subject, I would like to know how a length of engineered cable can influence the electrons into a warm and laid-back sound or for that matter, influence or change the characteristics of the electrons after they have departed the source. Anyone care to illustrate and explain.

CAV104

Bestboy, the Axiom speakers do lean in the bright or forward direction, therefore you need a warm cable to compensate. Fortunately there is a simple way to buy this : the red cables are the warm ones.

Seriously, your last post reveals that you appear to have fallen victim to a number of audio mythologies. Your cable decision needs to be based only on something you don't discuss, i.e. the length of the run from amp to speakers. Depending on that length anything from 16ga to 12ga copper wire will allow for full performance at far under$1.00 a foot. Don't allow yourself to be deluded into wasting your money on exotic cables.

Bestboy4

My personal experience with the M60s is that they indeed are bright and forward sounding.

When it comes to speaker wire - All joking aside - There are two camps at work here. Those that believe that wire has a sound (or a specific influence on the sound) - and those who believe it doesn't.

If you truly believe that you CAN hear a difference in expensive and/or exotic wite, and the difference is worth the $ to you, then by all means buy it. (otherwise you probably won't be happy) If you will search the posts for the past 2 months you will find info from both Ian and Alan about this subject (and Ian is the one who designs the speakers). Both will tell you that from their double blind testing experiences, they and their listening testors cannot hear any difference between the expensive exotic stuff and good 12 or 14 gage copper wire (the Home Depot or Radio Shack variety).

So, if you want to believe that wire has the ability to make a speaker sound brighter than "normal" or more warm and laid back, then you will probably hear it. (the mind is a marvelous thing!)

Just about everyone who make posts here will have an opinion. If you want mine (and you may not - but here it is anyway) I think that you should aim your energy and $ toward something (like the quality of the source or reproduction equipment) that will make a real difference in the sound you listen to.

Good Luck,

Randyman

If you haven't taken the hints or helpful suggestions yet then let me be blunt.

Very few people in this forum would pay such ridiculous amounts of money for speaker wire and even the OWNER of Axiom has stated that 'regular' speaker wire is fine (gauge is MORE important than brand name).

To quote Mr. Alan Lofft (Axiom resident expert) from several previous notes on this topic:

"Use #12 or #14-gauge copper wire--good, generic cable (Radio Shack is fine) or the bulk cable from Monster if you want... If the cable run is only a few feet or a metre, you can use thinner cable, 16 gauge for example... The only requirement of cables is to keep resistance low over longer cable runs, and that is accomplished with thick copper cable...Good-quality generic cable is fine--just make sure it's thick enough to keep cable resistance to 0.3 ohm or less. You can do that by selecting 14-gauge or 12-gauge cable. (As the gauge number becomes smaller, the cable is thicker.) For example, 22-gauge cable is like telephone wire--very thin. For short runs of cable, 6 to 8 feet or so, you can get away with 16-gauge cable...Others on the boards here will tell you where you can buy inexpensive cable--AR, Recoton, Radio Shack, etc. If you want to use branded cable like Monster, it's okay. The cable is fine but you'll simply pay more for the same copper"

As a biochemist i completely agree with Alan that one company's 99% copper Will NOT be any different from another. Copper is always copper.
If you believe differently well hey, its your money to blow but electrons will still always move at blinding speeds no matter how oxygen free or long stranded it is.

If your ears can actually tell the difference when some of those electrons shift from the p orbital to the s orbitals (using Cardas instead of Radio Shack) then man o man, i hope you work for NASA.

JohnK/Randyman,
You guys crack me up.

I am what many people refer to as "frugal" or "value oriented" and that is why I lurk so much on these boards before a purchase is made. When selecting cables for the system, I chose the generic cables from Home Depot. However, after reading hundreds of posts regarding the subject, even I played it safe with the guage. Following Ian's advice, I purchased 14 guage for all runs under 8 ft. and 12 guage for any runs longer than that. My local Home Depot sells 250 ft. rolls of 12 guage OFC (Oxygen-Free Copper) for only $55.00 USD
How can you beat that?!? You should be able to wire your whole 5.1 system with 250 ft.
Good Luck.....

as they say theres a sucker born every minute
some day you might see its all marketing
ive talked to a lot of electrical engineers and none have ever said otherwise
but what can i say some people believe in santa till ther 35 years old

Hey Randyman,

I sure am glad you cleared up that Canadian / U. S. dollar thing. Thought it was going to cost $104,000.00 but now it's only going to cost $13,880.00. I'll let you know when it arrives.

CAV104

Think you all for your opinions and suggestions, they are greatly appreciated! I'm sorry if I came across a little harsh in my last messege.

As far as electron transfer is conserned, I believe that things such as capacitance, inductance, and resistance all play an important role in the way an analog signal is transfered from one point to another through a wire. They can change the phase, tonal balance, and/or cause distortion of a siganl. That being said, the wire dielectric and geometry changes those values tremendously. I would suggest reading Robert Harlery's book 'The Complete Guide to High-End Audio,' or visit the AudioQuest web site for more information on the subject.

Once again your suggests were very helpful and hope to buy some of that 12ga stuf from Home Depot for starters. In the future I will demo some name brand cables and post my thoughts in a later thread.

Thanks again!

this thread is just HILARIOUS!!!

I, too, when first introduced to audiophilia, was considering spending a lot of money on good cables.. in the end, I bought some 12 ga OFC from pheonic gold for .75 cents a foot. It has a really thick jacket, which i needed because the wires get stepped on sometimes, since they wire my rear speakers. Whne i bought my center and front speakers, they came with Kimber 4PR, which is pretty good but I would not have gone out and paid 3$ a foot for it. It's a 14 ga wire, and claims to have great shielding, so there's less signal loss... yeah, it probably does, the sound was cleaner than el-cheapo 16 ga, but then again, 14 is thicker than 16, and my runs are 10 feet long.... it probably was the thickness that helped a lot.

Bestboy, you are coming along the right track now in at least buying some "low quality" wire and testing it against more expensive stuff.
However, to do this experiment properly though you need to have a blind test. If you switch the wires yourself before listening you will never get an unbiased answer. Get a friend to switch around the different wires and make sure they never tell you which pair is plugged in. Do this test about 20 times (i'm not kidding) and then chek to see how often you actually picked the more expensive wire.
I've done this test as has 2 other friends of mine (using Kimber Kable, Audioquest, Monster cable, Acoustic Research and generic stuff) back in university. I managed to pick the Kimber Kable only 7 times out of 20 and the Acoustic research 11 times out of 20. THat averages out to 9 times out of 20 which essentially is 50%. THat is the number you would get if you picked either choice enough times at random. Use the same song, the same volume and the same equipment and even the EXACT same listening positions (don't cross you legs, bend over, move left or right, clean wax from your ears, sneeze, etc.).

The problem with reading books or online material is that it may NOT be true. Anyone can write a book and publish it. That doesn't mean it contains facts (i.e. love story novels or conspiracy theories).


If you really want to find out the truth about these marketing terms like "inductance, dielectric, etc. then read JOURNAL PAPERS from reputable journals.
These published papers are reviewed by scientists and their peers for acceptable content and proper scientific procedure. A journal paper will not conclude that one wire sounds better than another because it has some extra shielding unless they have PROVEN this fact with imperical data.
Such is the world of proper science.
I know the hype about better cables is tempting. I bought some more 'quality' brand name stuff recently (Ultralink 12 awg for a buck a foot) over the Home Depot material for 2 reasons: i was looking for a more flexible jacket and second, the Home depot stuff was actually 46 cents more expensive per foot.
Beyond the aesthetics quality of the cables, there would be little reason to pay alot of cash for cables to use on my stereo equipment that falls into the $2000 category (at present Onkyo DS797 and Panasonic CV52 dvd/cd).

When the cables start costing more than my speakers is the day i'm a millionaire and have the cash to blow just for fun.

But thanks for the lively conversation. THis thread is officially out of control.

I agree with you their Ravi.

Your speaker impedance to gauge may have been an issue in producing a strong enough signal. Mind you 10ft is still not a long run but i was advised that for runs of 10ft or less with 8ohm speakers to use 14ga or less. Longer than 10ft to about 40ft, 12ga and beyond 40 use 10ga. These distances decrease some what for 4ohm speakers.

I believe i got those approximate numbers from a friend here in town who repairs and installs truly hifi stuff for a living (e.g. for local yuppies who want those $50,000 systems).They were his suggestion according to what he uses for home installations for his clients and seem to be about what i've read from other ppl's perspectives in these forums.

I tried some 18ga crap (not even copper, probly tin or some kind of steel) that i had laying around with the axiom m60s when they first came in cuz i was waiting for my real cable to arrive. The sound was less than flattering. Almost sounded distorted and rough.

Now i have 10awg gauge all around just because i can. I bought one big chunk of it and now i don't have to remember or mix different gauges for a 6 speaker set up. They are all Ultralink standard 10awg, period.

Bestboy4,
I would suggest you ordering some mif-fi cable (Cardas or Kimber Cable) from an outfit (Audio Advisor) that has a 30-day return policy. Compare this against some Home Depot zip cord and let your ears tell you if there is any difference. Remember that your room's acoustics will also impact what reaches your ears.
When I purchased the M22's, I noticed that they were wonderful speakers, but were indeed forward, as many people have noted about Axiom speakers. (Soundstage Magazine said as much about the 80's in their review).
It's amazing how many people believe mid-fi speaker cables are a waste of money, but have no qualms about referring to a speaker as "bright" or "forward".

I will let you know how the $8.00 a foot speaker cables are when they get here next week.
Take care, Michael4

Thanks Michael4, can't wait to hear about your cables. I was temped to buy the M22's, but I wanted to be able to biwire (another subject which I feel not too many people are on fire for around here), so I went with the M60's.

Andrew

Hello Bestboy4,

If you are that much of a purist then you should spend as much money as you like to achieve the desired results. FYI I have had the audioquest web site bookmarked for some time now. I have also auditioned various cables and did not hear any tremendous difference from a high quality 12 ga. and as far as I could hear there was no difference at all. But thats just me.

I am curious about something and maybe you can answear this.
Why purchase of pair of speakers that you consider to be bright and foward then compensate for this with an engineered cable to get the desired sound? Why not just purchase speakers that have the desired sound you are looking for in the first place.

CAV104

Good point about the speaker choice.
Sometimes the obvious eludes us all.

So what cable types did you try? Anything in the $10,000 range?
I would love to just see those things.

Hey chesseroo,

Well actually, yes, what I did try was in the $350.00 (us$) per foot range. I needed about twenty one feet, and let me tell you what a deal I got. The cable listed for $7,350.00 (US$). Guess what! The dealer took 10 percent off. I can't tell you how thrilled I was.

Oh, and by the way, after I audition them for about three days, I will UPS overnight them to you.

Whatta ya think? Sound OK.

CAV104

Hello Cav104,

Fortunately I'm not a total purist. I will admit though that I did just cut about $900 total in speaker wiring form my audio budget if I go with Sound King 12ga.

I do like a little forwardness in my speakers (ie. the Boston Acoustics VRM series), just not alot. But some manufactures go overboard with titanium tweeters and cause shrill highs. I hope to go with Axiom because of their good repor. My final decision however, will be made after I the M60's in my living room for a couple of weeks.

Bestboy4

Rock on.
Expensive cable and free at that. I'll make a killing reselling them on ebay.

I wouldn't describe the M60s as forward but definitely a touch bright. It provides a clarity though that makes our choir vocal recordings sound accurate. For home theatre it makes the dialogure clean, even muffled whispers.
Changing our cd player from an old Technics to a newer Denon made a HUGE difference as well.
Never underestimate the influence of your other theatre components. The sound is only as good as your weakest link, and for us it was by far a crappola cd player.

350$ US a foot? Not bad! What a deal at %10 off!!

you guys wanna hear the dumbest marketing for high end wires I've ever heard in my life?

At the Montreal Sound and Image festival, Nordost was auditioning their new flat speaker cables. They were about 5 or 6000$ US a pair, 8 feet lengths each. The guy presenting the audition said the following in his speech

"the reason why most audio companies do not use rock music in their demos is because it is some of the hardest music to reproduce... it is very fast, so you need cables and speakers that are as fast as the music to keep up... the new Nordost cables are the fastest in the market and can keep up with any kind of music... now I'm going to play you a drum solo, listen as the music is not slowed down at all"...

so he put on this drum solo, and WOW!!! it wasn;t slow!!
OH MY GOD!! I should have just bought 20 pairs right there.. To my surprise, there were actually many IMPRESSED people in the room!! I would have liked to see him use 12 ga radio shack in comparison, to see how much slower the music would have been..

gimme a break, Nordost.. what kind of music plays faster than the speed of an electron travelling across copper?

Sorry everybody, but I just gotta get back in here with a comment.

If it even slightly true that those expensive exotic engineered cables improve the sound, then I don't understand why equipment manufacturers don't use them to wire up the components INSIDE their equipment! Man, just imagine how much better a CD player or an amplifier could sound if that super cable was used to connect all those tiny little ICs! WOW! or even if they could use that wire INSIDE those tiny little ICs!

Hmmm... I'm gonna contact Motorola, or NEC. Maybe I'm on to something here......

Look out Bill Gates! Here I come!


Thanks for all the great posts! This stuff makes my day!

Randyman

Ya, i'm gonna start wiring my computer with 10ga Nordost.
That ought to make this little Duron cpu sing eh? (pardon the pun)

im redoing my whole house so maybe my lightbulbs will last longer

HAHAHAHA!!!

this is truly the best thread ever on this board..


maybe my lightbulbs will last longer...... oh man, that's PRICELESS humour!!

Hi everyone!

Great thread! In all seriousness though, I have the M22s and will have a run of 4-6 feet. What gauge would be best? 12,14,16? Thanks. Oh, I also agree with the view that copper is copper. As a physicist I am sure that this is so. However, does anyone know anything about silver cable or silver interconnects?

thanks

For a run that short a 14ga should be perfectly fine. I use 10awg all around just because i bought one big long length of it. I didn't see the point in having 14ga for my main runs, 12ga for medium length runs and then 10ga for really long runs, etc., so i just chose one gauge period.

As for the silver cable/interconnects, i've read many different things but ulitmately it will conduct an electrical signal which is the whole point. Considering it is a different metal it may have a different sound than copper but who's to really say?
It will cost more that's for sure.
I have yet to try listening to anything silver myself.
It definitely won't oxidize as easily as the copper which is good if you are going to bare wire your speakers.

Quark, if you really had that name you couldn't have become anything but a physicist, could you? The only point of significance on your speaker cables is that their resistance be negligible in comparison to the impedance of your speakers. Bear in mind that all speakers have over 100 feet of wire( cheap wire! ) inside with gauges running in the 20s and 30s. A conservative rule is that the cable resistance shouldn't be more than 5% of the speaker impedance. In your case a 6 foot run of even 20 ga would have a total resistance of about 0.12 ohm. Copper is the ideal low-resistance relatively inexpensive material for conducting electricity. Silver has an even slightly lower resistance, but it's absurd to spend the money when copper supplies the low resistance so easily.

Hello Everybody,

Ok, Try this site for a good read, Http://www.sundial.net/~rogerr/wire.htm - If you have trouble connecting, let me know and I will foward the page to you.

CAV104

Hello Everybody Again,

This is my first attempt at posting a link, lets see how it goes. This is the link for my last post. By the way, its all about SPEAKER WIRE and just when you thought you had enough.
Speaker Wire

CAV104

Edited by axiom?
Just what kind of link did you add there CAV?

Hey chesseroo,

One thats educational and informative of course. Just needed a little help with the url thing.

CAV104

OK, so I'm convinced about speaker wire. Actually, I'm convinced to UPgrade, as I still have some cheapo 16 guage zipcord for my surround speakers.

But, how about interconnects? Is it the same where the cheapest cord with the appropriate connectors are adequate or should you spend some dough for some decent ones? From years with a cheap system, I have concluded that the cable does make a difference, as I often would have unexplained static, distortion or video noise that could be alleviated just by moving cables around. It seemed that the cheap cables lacked the insulation to avoid interference from surrounding cables/fields. Or they were too thin, and were easily damaged. Any truth to this?

Having just put in an (expensive) order for some bettercables.com interconnects to finally replace my cheapo ones, I hope that this was justified! (for the sake of my survival against a vigilant budgeting spouse!) It's probably not too late to cancel the order!

Personally i've never been one to pay much for interconnects either but i agree that the crappola stuff that comes with the dvd or vcr really sucks. Tin metal wiring with inflexible cheap plastic shielding and loose fits.
I've had issues with crackling and that nonsense as well. I shouldn't have to shift any cables to get good connections.

I looked around on ebay and found some acoustic research cables which i've picked up for no more than ten to fifteen bucks each or so (got a toslink, composite a/v, component vid and subwoofer cable which cost about $20 cuz it was a 30 footer).
Beyond buying a slightly better built interconnect i sure haven't gone crazy purchasing really expensive stuff. After all, copper is still copper...but the crackling sure has improved.

ChrisR

Ah... You have hit on another area where there could (will be) controversy! As a believer that good speaker wire is just plain copper wire (12 to 14 gage), I have a slightly different opnion about interconnects (ICs) (whatever happened to the good old term of patch cords?) Well, anyway...

I believe that most equipment that comes with ICs, comes with pretty cheap ones. And IF you have a fairly high end system (meaning lots of $ invested), then you should "consider" some good quality ICs. I say consider because if you are not experiencing any audible problems or sound degradation, then I wouldn't bother.
But let's say you have the "bug" to upgrade. You go out and buy that new $1000+ HT receiver, and/or a $500 DVD player, then why not spring for some really good ICs?

So, what is decent or a reasonable amount to spend? Ah! Now we really get down to the nitty gritty! So...How much do you WANT to spend?

Well, (for example) if you trip down to a Circuit City and look at their Monster (brand) cables - you will find at least 3 different "quality" (and price) levels. Which do you buy? Well just ask the salesman! (And you will probably end up with the most expensive!) That's a waste of $ if you ask me! I say shop around and buy what you are comfortable with. The only TRUE way to tell if there is any difference in the "sound" is to do a double blind listening test (as already pointed out in this thread). And for most of us, that's pretty difficult. Again - copper is copper! IMO - What really counts here is quality of construction, connectors (gold plating is good!) and shielding/grounding. Once you pay for ICs with a good connector and shielding - the actual wiring will (should) be just fine. Stick with a brand known for quality and price in the middle of the pack, and you should be a happy (and somewhat frugal) audophile.

So, if you choose - let us know what you decide.

Good Luck!

Randyman

Well, as it turns out, it was too late to cancel my order with bettercables.com! They were so prompt, the day after I left the post about the cables (and the day after I orderd them) they were at my door. And that was the free ground shipping - overnight!

I decided that since I now had a good quality preamp and amp to connect instead of just a receiver, I at least needed new cables to connect the amp to the preamp. For the others, I could wait and see, and maybe do some comparisons. (Things are mostly wired with the freebie cables or Walmart specials.) So I have new bettercables silver serpent interconnects between my Anthem preamp and amp. I also bought one new digital coax to "upgrade" my old CD player. (see my post in another thread)

The sound blows away anything I had before, but that is comparing the new components, not any cables. I just didn't want to worry about the connections between the amp and preamp being low-quality. The source connectors I'll do one as the mood strikes.

Well there are worse things in the world than having interconnects that cost you a bit more, like having interconnects that cost you a second mortgage on your house. And the scary part is THOSE SUCH CABLES EXIST!!

Interference, capacitance and crosstalk are the main issues with interconnects. Capacitance can be minimised by choosing the right cable (say a quality coaxial cable). Use of a highly capacitive cable may cause instability in the amplifier which can impact the sound adversely.

Crosstalk and interference are eliminated by the use of shielded, coaxial cables. You can make your own interconnects with good-quality audio coaxial cable and connectors. If this is too much of a chore, get the RCA gold series interconnects from Walmart. They retail for about $15-20 for packs of three (usually color coded - but I am yet to come across an amp that is fussy in this respect!) and are difficult to beat.