Speaker dilemma (On wall) - Axiom Message Boards

OK, I have dilemma. A new piece of expensive furniture has replaced my current set up which included running two def tech sm450's off an onkyo 939. I use to use the Onkyo 939 for my home theater and upgraded too a denon 4806. So, I placed the Onkyo in the family room/kitchen, where we sit around and enjoy libations and sometimes party until early in the morning. This room is not ideal for dedicated audiophiles, but it is the party place.

Now that I can't use the def tech's anymore (too deep and won't fit on the new $2500 Amish sideboard/Credenza which sports a 42 inch panny plasma) and don't want to hang them on the wall, I have to revert to onwall speakers. So, I want to find the best speaker I can and possibly subwoofer that I can place next to the plasma. The sub would go underneath. My room is "live" as Chris Dixon stated, so I need the speakers to do the work and allow the room to have its deficiencies. So, please recommend to me the best on wall speaker you know of: I have a $5000 tops, budget (two speakers, one sub).

I really was considering Triad silvers, but they have no on wall. I am also considering Triad golds or Bronze. My goal is to hear music as purely as possible relying mostly on the speakers. I also own a Nad 1600/2400 tuner and pre-amp tuner and a rotel 880bx.
My room is approximately 14 by 20, vaulted ceiling, French style ceramic tile, one couch, Kitchen cabinets, a breakfastnook with miscellaneous tapesty rugs on the floors. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Lstly I was looking at the Axiom on-walls AS 150 but there seems to be an incredible amount of controversy over Axioms.

The only way you will ever be able to settle any alleged "controversy" to your satisfaction is to listen with your ears in your room.

Call Axiom.

My understanding is that the W22 is designed to be virtually identical to the M22 sonically. To save you the time/trouble of a proper inwall installation, you might consider auditioning the M22 for a bit to see if you like the Axiom character. If so, I believe Axiom will allow you to upgrade to another model within the 30 day trial period. If you are not satisfied, the only thing you may lose is the return shipping cost.

In reply to:
My goal is to hear music as purely as possible relying mostly on the speakers.

Based on your post I would recommend staying away from inwall or onwall speakers. They can sound quite good but if you are truly lookig for "pure" sound, and can not have floor standers any more, my suggestion is to go with bookshelf speakers on wall mount stands.

As far as the Axiom offerings, this would include the M22ti with the Full Metal Bracket stand. A pair of these combined with a quality subwoofer would give you great sound and reduce the boundary effect that inwall and onwall speakers suffer. They will also allow you to aim the speakers. I don't think swivelling drivers will yield the same quality you appear to be looking for.

IMO inwall and onwall speakers are for WAF and people who want the best aesthetic appearance where sound comes second. Please note again that inwalls and onwalls can sound very good. I just don't think they can sound as "accurate" as a well placed or well aimed speaker. It comes down to your priority.

Gee, that sounds like a challenge for an M22/W22 shootout!

From my listening to the W3 intalled in the wall powered with the Halos, I would not be to fast in not giving them a consideration for a quality sounding speaker. But thats my opinion, so take it for whats its worth.

How far back from your W3s do you sit? What is the relationship between the height of the speakers as mounted and your ear height?

I think some onwall speakers can sound very good. I know my installation would not lend itself to onwalls or inwalls unless I had an acoustically transparent screen. Just not enough space in my house.

I have not finished the W3 install yet, should be finishing up next week after I return from Axiom this weekend. Here is a pic of the installation:

Top of the W3 is 40" from the floor level, the bed is to the left, and when in bed the speaker is approx 20" above the ears. The head of the bed is about 30" in front of the speakers. Room is approx 15' x 18', with a ceiling hieght at the peak of about 14'.

The W3s fill the room very well, and to my ear, no big differance where one is in the room. Richeydog has heard the bedroom system, perhaps he will post an opinion as well.

Dennis?
Did you know you have a big hole in the floor?

Will post better pics next week when I finish the W3s. But that is not a hole, the bed is on a two tier platform I built and that is one of the 26 drawers for storage built into the platforms. <g>

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Dennis?
Did you know you have a big hole in the floor?

Don't worry Mark, its only there to gain access to Dennis' dungeon.

Seriously though, these speakers really do sound fantastic. I've never listened to any other inwall products before, so can't give a true comparison. But these babies rock! And look good too.

i want to move into Dennis' house, he has everything, like 10 M80s, 3 or 4-600s (at least i think that's what it's up to now) and even a trap door.....my recommendation is when setting up an in-home demo of the onwalls with Dennis is be very, very nice!

Definitely am looking forward to more pics.

Maybe I will revisit the idea of onwall speakers for the home theater. I'll still keep the floor standers for music though

. I can just her my wife now. "Do you really need two sets of speakers?!"

OK, I got the w22's and have them sitting on my wife's new piece of furniture (amish credenza type piece). The color of the furniture and the speakers (Boston Cherry) are a perfect match. As for sound, to tell you the truth, they are necessary sufficient: meaning, I am very pleased with both the aestetics and the sound! Go figure! How often does that happen.

So, with all the arguments that I have heard regarding brightness, harshness, etc. What I have to say about all those arguments is that yes, they are bright, but in a warm way. In other words, I think they are accurate as far as the music I listen to. I am a conniseur of acoustic music first, then country rock, then reggae. The w22's have past my test for sufficient and necessary. Let me put it this way, I was willing to pay $5000 for a good stereo set up: now I am going to spend the $4300 on something else. Lastly, I am not a push over nor an idiot savant. I like my music, more than most of my friends, AND I am very pleased, not to mention my wife who is glad I am not spending $5000.

An Honest response,

dale

Nicely said, Dale. If they are "sitting on my wife's new piece of furniture," I'm assuming they are not wall mounted yet. According to Tharkun (forum member, Dennis), who has the W3s in his bedroom, once mounted, they sound even better.

While we certainly enjoy hearing praise for the Axioms, what pleases us most, here on the forum, is that you've found a system that satisfies YOU. That, by far, is the most important thing. ENJOY!

That was one of the best replies I've read in some time.Congrats and as Jack said most importanly ENJOY.

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What I have to say about all those arguments is that yes, they are bright, but in a warm way. In other words, I think they are accurate as far as the music I listen to.

I think I know what you mean because I believe my Monitor Audio speakers have a very similar characteristic (similar metal cone drivers).

Sounds like your passion for music is much like my own. I suspect that I would enjoy listening to the on wall and I know that my wife would also enjoy seeing the onwall speakers (especially if I got rid of the floor standers).

Yes, I am pleased with them thus far. I wish they would have made these with the 6.5 inch mid/woofers. They are very attractive. I thought about the W3s?, buying two sets and mounting them as if, but, nah! Too much of a hassle. I did purchase a velodyne sl800-r sub for them. I was using a def tech 8 inch with a 250 watt amp, but the new velodyne comes with an auto eq on board with microphone to tune the sub to the room. It also is compact in size (which means it will fit where I need it to) and it has on onboard 1000 watt amplifier. Pretty snazzy me thinks. All in all, I believe to be a good purchase.

Just back from visitng Axiom and John Bridgman, had a great time.

I only have two of the EP600s, I'm not going to even going to try at keeping up with others that are having more than two of them.

I hope to get back to finishing up the W3s this week or next and I will post bettter pics once they are finished up. Well at Axion on last Friday, I did a blind test of some speakers. I had no clue what was behind the black curtain, had a selection of CDs and after listening for about 30 minutes, I completed the blind test form. Between speaker A and B it was really a diffacult choice, but I felt I prefered speaker A, since to my ears it had a tad bit more base and slightly better sound. But either speaker would have been a good choice in my opinion.

Later when I asked Ian what I had listend to, I was surprised, neither were floor standing speakers. The A speaker was the M2, the B speaker was the W2. A sub woffer had been added to aid with base. If I had been asked to guess what I had listened to was, it would have been a floor standing speaker of some type. So from that test, guess I have spent a lot more for speakers than needed. LOL

In reply to:
Later when I asked Ian what I had listend to, I was surprised, neither were floor standing speakers. The A speaker was the M2, the B speaker was the W2. A sub woffer had been added to aid with base. If I had been asked to guess what I had listened to was, it would have been a floor standing speaker of some type. So from that test, guess I have spent a lot more for speakers than needed. LOL

Simply amazing. I really have to take a trip out there with the wife. She wants us to drive out there so we can pick up speakers directly. She doesn't seem to to care that the shipping is free.

I think I am slowly getting brainwashed into downsizing even further. My wife would love it if I ditched the floor-standers.

I guess there is nothing to it except to order some onwalls when the theater room is complete and do my own A/B comparison. Now the question is....W22s or W3s? Based on the construciton of the VP150, I am leaning towards the W22s.

>>So from that test, guess I have spent a lot more for speakers than needed. LOL

Trust me, you wouldn't have said that if you tested at 120 dB

When I was running M2 mains with the SVS sub in a small listening area (one end of a 13x23 room) the results were as good as anything I have heard. I don't think the M2s gave anything up to the larger speakers.

As you stood/sat further back, though, you couldn't play at the volumes you wanted. Getting a "wall of sound" on music CDs was out of the question. That's where the bigger speakers (ie more drivers) really start to shine. With a 28 x 28 room and 115-125 dB music SPL I think you need all the drivers you can get

Oh you are correct, the listening area was not a large area., and thats why I have the system I have.

In reply to: She doesn't seem to to care that the shipping is free

It is free but I got additional 5% discount for picking them up myself in Dwight

In reply to:
It is free but I got additional 5% discount for picking them up myself in Dwight

Sounds like the plans for a road trip to Dwight are formulating

. However I'm sure I could purchase another pair of W22s for the bedroom for what it will cost me in gas

.

If you add a 500 or 600 to the list, that could off set the gas cost.

Actually just meeting the Axiom people would be worth the trip in my opinion, its a good idea to fill up with gas before Dwight, no gas pumps in the town.

I have been reading this thread with interest. I did some measurements and those M60ti's are going to overwhelm my living room area. Depth is an issue and those M60s are 15" deep and most say need another 18" from the wall. That might be a bit much.

I might have to resign myself to the M22s and count on the EP500 to take care of my bass.

KC, I think the "depth" issue is somewhat room dependant. In my case, I could not hear any difference beyond maybe 10~12" out from the wall if that helps.

Maybe someone official can chime in here, but my gut feeling is that the distance from the wall is mostly relevant to the mid to lower bass region and maybe the use or lack of a sub (along with your crossover freq) might be an issue as well??

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and most say need another 18" from the wall

18 inches from corner or sidewall.....maybe!

My 60's were 4 to 5 inches from the wall behind with no problem. My 80s are only 8 inches out.

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EP500 to take care of my bass

I'd get the EP500 anyway! It will change the way you listen to music or HT.

The distance from the rear wall just affects the amount of bass reinforcement. Some people find the mid-bass a bit boomy if the speakers are too close to the wall, but (a) it definitely depends on the room, (b) something like 15" seems to be the largest distance anyone has needed and most run them closer.

KC,

How big is you room?

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When I was running M2 mains with the SVS sub in a small listening area (one end of a 13x23 room) the results were as good as anything I have heard. I don't think the M2s gave anything up to the larger speakers.

As you stood/sat further back, though, you couldn't play at the volumes you wanted. Getting a "wall of sound" on music CDs was out of the question. That's where the bigger speakers (ie more drivers) really start to shine.

That gives me a lot of confidence hearing that since my room will be approximately those dimensions. Thus, a pair of W22s on the wall with a good sub would be the ideal.

The only issue I've been wrestling with is the "toe-in". Most people set up their floor standing or bookshelf speakers slightly toed-in for the best sound. Since I would like to use the on-walls for music as well, I am contemplating building the walls with an angle to simulate the toe-in procedure. AFAIK, the drivers are not able to swivel on the W-series.

Just me being anal.

At the significant and calculated risk of offering unfounded conjecture...

Bruce, I think that's overkill for a couple reasons. First, one of the key design goals of Axiom speakers (as I understand it) is even dispersion. That is, they are intended to deliver very smooth, even response even off-axis (to a point, of course).

Second, and more importantly, where the speakers are mounted relative to not only each other and the listener but also the room boundaries is going to make a much bigger difference than toe-in. Room interaction (especially with side walls) remains the forgotten component.

I remember reading that Ian was emphatic that the whole "swiveling tweeter" idea could only make the sonic image fuzzier. If it were me, I'd just try to find some sensible mounting positions away from the side wall and be happy.

Now, hurry up and buy them, take some pictures and give us a full report.

Sometimes, I think that I think too much.

thinking about thinking is a highly dangerous endeavor.

Sometimes, I think about NOT thinking. It's like a little mental vacation.

Good one, Tom. Heck, just wait 'til you're a little older. I take those "little mental vacations" all the time.