My center is below the tv. About the level between the mids and lows woofers on the 80s. Above the tv it would be 24 inches above the 80s.
When I am seated, ear level is about right between the 80s tweeters.
Should I use a 2nd center above the tv to even out the balance?
Can you not aim the center at the listening position? Leave it low and angle it upward to improve the imaging, or mount it high and angle it downward.
I have tried both. Dialog seems to come from the speaker instead of the screen.
Curious. How close are you to your speakers (left, right and center)?
I could see being a little close would cause this effect and perhaps it would be beneficial to balance the sound with a paralleled center channel.
Having another center on top of the screen (or on the bottom rather) will create a vertical "phantom center" which will make the sound sound like it is coming from the screen.
That seems to be a decent distance so I can only think that you must listen to your system at relatively loud levels or you have a very keen sense of hearing.
I agree that a second center will eliminate the localization that you are experiencing. You'll just have to recalibrate once you have the new speaker in place.
You have got less than seven days to buy that extra center before the price goes up
.
In reply to:
Dialog seems to come from the speaker instead of the screen.
I've never heard a center speaker that didn't sound like this. It drove me crazy. I now believe that the perfect center speaker is no center speaker. I started using the "phantom" center about a year ago and have never looked back (even sold my $1000.00 Maggie CC3 center and bought a Dish PVR 942 with the money. Great PVR BTW.)
Dialog now seems to be perfectly placed (according to the material) on the screen and the front sound stage is wonderfully blended.
My room is small enough that even if you are seated off axis the dialog is still well placed. I use Maggies for my fronts and they seem to be well suited for a phantom center but even with my Axiom M22ti or KEFs as mains it works well also. To me, center speakers are like the emperor's new clothes.
In reply to:
To me, center speakers are like the emperor's new clothes.
Hey, man, I
like my new wrinkle-resistant shirt.
Once you realize that there's nothing a center speaker can do better that both front channel speakers -- with the exception of centering sounds to a specific point regardless of a listener's position in the room -- then a center can be omitted altogether, given your room and typical audience.
I found that you can get the sound to "come from the screen" rather than from the speaker, at least with a smaller TV, but the trick seemed to be balancing the height of the center and mains so that they sort of "averaged out" to the middle of the screen. In other words, if the center is above the TV then the midranges of the mains need to be about the same distance below the TV.
If everything is centered or above, the sound is going to seem to come from the center channel instead.
In reply to:
Hey, man, I like my new wrinkle-resistant shirt.
"coz every girl grazy 'bout a sharp dressed man."
I don't doubt your method but it seems like taking the scenic route rather than the straightest path. Why not just use phantom mode rather than jumping through all the hoops to acheive the same result. Also, phantom mode eliminates the need for timbre matching - which I think is almost impossible (timbre match) unless identical speakers are used across the front and even then it isn't a given.
Simple -- if you run without a center channel then the sound only seems to come from the screen when you are sitting near the centerline of the speakers. As you move from side to side the sound moves with you. The center channel anchors the sound closer to the center of the screen...
I used to believe that timbre matching was a big issue -- my left M60 main sounded significantly different from my VP100 -- until I found the blown tweeter in the M60. Now they sound VERY similar
In reply to:
if you run without a center channel then the sound only seems to come from the screen when you are sitting near the centerline of the speakers
.
Yes, but it is only significant (at least in my situation) if your off axis position is way off to the side such as you would find in a large space or in a very near field situation. I also think that if "phantom" mode is used a good digital processor is important as well.
In reply to:
The center channel anchors the sound closer to the center of the screen...
I think that in many typical home theater situations (living room, den, etc.- not a mega buck dedicated home theater), "closer to the center of the screen" still means it sounds like it is coming from above or below the screen . Personally, I would rather live with a little less "anchoring" than a whole lot of "above or below" isolation. Good stuff
I can see where a blown tweeter just might make a difference.
My VP100 is in a odd position: on top of the TV (27"), on its angled back. It's angled up towards the ceiling, as opposed to being a straight shooter (that sounded really weird) or being aimed at the counch (which sounded good, but looked like a WATT puppy...). I very rarely notice the sound coming from the center, no matter where I am on the couch.
Thank you Ken!!
Finally got my wife off my case!!
When I read your "Watt Puppy" comment, I couldn't hold back a chuckle which the Wife heard and interrogated me about.
So I pulled up the Wilson website and showed her a Watt Puppy.
Suddenly an M3 inverted on top of our TV isn't quite so odd anymore!
Much appreciated!
Rich.
I built an angled shelf that directs the M3’s (my center channel) down to the sitting position. Prior to doing that, dialog was very noticeably coming from the speakers and not the screen. Not anymore. You also might want to play with your delay settings a bit.
Tonight I put the center on a stand below but closer to the screen. It sounded louder but not quite right. I think the second center is the next option. Tomorrow I will buy a shelf for over the tv and try a bookshelve I already have to test. If it comes close, then I will order an M3 monday.
Thanks for all comments!
How far below the screen was your center?
Why buy an M3? You're not going to mix the VP with an M3 are you? I wouldn't....
Whenever I get my room finished here in few days I'm going to experiment with a pair of 60's for center channels (vertical) parked right up tight to the TV on both sides ... Alan says we *might* get some off axis dialogue while sitting off to either side of the sweet spot but it should work out fine and dandy. We'll give it a shot and see, otherwise it's going to be a couple of 150s above and below.
I'll let y'all know how it works out.
Rat, the top of the speaker is 12 inches below the screen.
I added one of
these this afternoon.
Right now I have a Criterion 77 (1 inch tweeter, 3.5 inch mid, 8 inch woofer) above the tv. The dialog centers pretty well to the screen.
In reply to:
Why buy an M3? You're not going to mix the VP with an M3 are you? I wouldn't....
And why wouldn't you?
I would think that the M3 would be a nice bridge to the 6.5s in my 80s.
Any way to get it closer?
Rick, with stereo speakers in a two-channel setup a center image will move to the left or right with a listener, but not farther out than the speaker on that side. The same applies to two center speakers located at the sides of the TV; the center image can move out with the listener as far as that side of the TV. When two separated speakers are playing the same sound, but we move toward one of them, making the sound reaching us from it slightly louder, the sound source appears to move from directly between the speakers toward the louder one.
I don't think an M3 will mix well with the VP. Probalby just fine with the 80's, but you did say your were going to mix one with a VP and I think you will be disapointed.
Rat,
Can't get the speaker any closer.
Pulled the trigger on a pair of M3s just now. I can always use the speakers in another room if need be. A factory order with a 5 week lead time so the wait begins.
Bug: good luck on the M3s.
Five weeks will come and go before you know it. LOL!!!