EP500...Lack of base? - Axiom Message Boards

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Hey everyone! Just hooked up my wonderful speakers from axiom last night. Fiddled with them a bit, was over-all happy.

This morning, however, as I play with the settings and what not, I've noticed a decisive lack of base from the system. The base kicks in and and you know it is there for the deep stuff, but in the overall playback of a movie...it just seems missing or weak.

I'm probably setting something wrong, but I'm a noob, so who knows. I'm not even sure what info to give you guys to help out.

I got the Epic 60-500 setup, a Yamaha 2600 for receiver. I've got the crossover set to bypass on the 500, set to 80 in the receiver. I've toyed between splitting the base between just the sub and the sub+Left Right fronts. I've also switched between small and large for the left and right fronts.

I dunno if I'm missing something, being paranoid, or what. I've heard that some speakers need to "break in" (whether or not that is true, I haven't the foggiest, these are my first "real" speakers), but I guess I was expecting a little more in the tone range right out of the gate.

Everything else seems great though. I'm hearing things I never would have expected to be there.

Suggestions? Comments?

Thanks in advance!
Mark

Hey Mark,

Wow, there are so many things to look at.

Sub location?
m60s locations?
seating distance in relation to room length?
sub knob volume (gain)?
receiver levels dB for the sub channel?
trim setting on the sub (flat, half, etc...)
acoustics of room, etc....
room size?

Keep in mind the realllllll lowwwww stuff in movies will be directed to the sub, however, depending on the music you listen to, you may not get anything from the sub.

If you can answer some of the questions above, we may be able to help out...

Quick reply. I like it.

Sub location - Next to my right front. About 10 - 12 ft from listening area.

m60's - about 9 feet from listening area.

The room is pretty large (also our dinning room...stupid Chicago condos) at about 20x22x12. The seating area is pretty much smack dab in the middle.

Gain - its about at the 9 o'clock position (about half to max).

receiver lvls dB - 0dB (if I'm looking in the right spot). Perhaps this is the ussue. The other speakes, right and left for example, are +7 and +8.

Trim - flat

Acoustics - room is pretty much bare walls (still decorating), hard wood floors.

size - about 20x22x12

So in the meantime I read a couple articles speaking to the crossover. The standard is 80, but the people over at audioholics seem to thick that is poor for HT... Should this be adjusted down to say, 60?

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The seating area is pretty much smack dab in the middle.

That alone is BIG no no. You are most likely sitting in a null and won't be hearing strong bass. Next time you play the system get up and walk around to see if you do hear strong bass in other parts of the room.

Nah. There is no base anywhere in the room. not next to the sub itself (my ear right up to it) nor, on the sides or anything.

Rick is correct, that the middle of the room is usually a null area. 1/3 or 2/3 back may be better. Is your sub up front?

From reading your levels to me it sounds like you have it turned up fairly high (9 o'clock is loud for the 500). I run mine between 6 and 7 o'clock, receiver at -7dB (other channels near 0.

Did you calibrate with an SPL meter? The other sub setting not mentioned so far is the phase. Make sure it is not fighting your mains. The easiest way to get this right is play the receiver sub test tone (which is crossed in with the mains if they are set to small) and choose the phase setting that gives you the loudest SPL reading on the meter.

I feel the crossover of 80Hz is ideal for movies with a good sub and setup. 60Hz may be fine for M60s or M80s, but not for QS8s or the VP centers.

Your sub is working right, I mean you should be able to hear it easily when playing test tones or music???

Good luck.

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Rick is correct, that the middle of the room is usually a null area. 1/3 or 2/3 back may be better. Is your sub up front?

From reading your levels to me it sounds like you have it turned up fairly high (9 o'clock is loud for the 500). I run mine between 6 and 7 o'clock, receiver at -7dB (other channels near 0.

Did you calibrate with an SPL meter? The other sub setting not mentioned so far is the phase. Make sure it is not fighting your mains. The easiest way to get this right is play the receiver sub test tone (which is crossed in with the mains if they are set to small) and choose the phase setting that gives you the loudest SPL reading on the meter.

I feel the crossover of 80Hz is ideal for movies with a good sub and setup. 60Hz may be fine for M60s or M80s, but not for QS8s or the VP centers.

Your sub is working right, I mean you should be able to hear it easily when playing test tones or music???

Good luck.

I agree, with the middle of the room thing. I hope I didn't sound like I was arguing. Unfortunatly, that is the only setup we can support given the rooms dimensions and the rooms purpose. It isn't exactly in the middle, though it is pretty close.

My sub is up front. In the corner actually. About 35 degree angle or so from the listening position. I'll try turning it down a bit. It was only so high because I couldn't hear it.

I have not used a SPL meter yet. I need to pick one up. I have always planned to, but i figured I'd do that over the course of the next week or two. But then I noticed the missing low freq. levels.

I think the base is working. You definitly hear it (and feel it) during the tone tests, however, I experience the same issue with music CD's.

For example, I loaded up "The Imperial March". I know from experience the wonderful base that track provides. But it seemed that the percussion section was out on break when I played it.

Another example is during the Universal Logo Opening in movies. Toward the end of the jingle (is this really a jingle?) there are suppose to be a couple of resounding booms... but instead I get a weak thud.

I'll pick up the SPL meter on my way home from work today, and see what it tells me.

Thanks to everyone for the advise and help. I really appreciate it. I'm just frustrated. I wasn't expecting an phenomenal performance right out of the box, but I was hoping for a little more than this.

--Mark

So this happens across the board on all inputs?

Is the test tone generated by the receiver or a DVD/CD?

For HT, 80hz crossover is best and what THX recommends. This is the point where LFE is non directional, meaning you can't determine where it is coming from... Now, music some people like to use 60hz. If your receiver allows you to set seperate crossover settings for each speaker, you could try bumping down the left/right mains to 60. My Denon 2805 only allows for one setting for all speakers, so 80 is best for all situations.

Have you tried flipping the phase switch to see if the base gets a little better?

When watching movies with lowww LFE scenes like the Darla Tap Scene in Nemo on the Aquirium, or when the Whale is telling Darla and Nemo to "Let gooooo" doesn't the 500 blow you away?

Again, unless you listen to Jazz, Rap, R&B, Country, etc with lowwww base, you most likely won't hear much from many music genre's.

If you have any Styx CD's try the song Renegade at the very beginning.

Yep, placement plays a HUGE part in it's performance. Even moving it a few inches in some cases will make a difference.

I had a real problem with music. The low stuff was there, but there didn't seem to be any "kick". It took alot of fooling with placement to get it where I was happy.

The other thing to remember is that most "consumer" speakers have bloated bass/mid-bass, and this is what you were used to hearing. With a "real" speaker, this gives the initial impression that they are lacking bass. This will change with more listening. (My ears took about 2 to 3 weeks to adjust)

I would also reset the L/R mains back to 0db as reference, and adjust the REST of the speakers up/down from there.

Here are my settings:
L/R: 0 db
Surrounds: +1.5 to 2.5 db depending on the source.
Centre: +2 db
Sub: usually at -12 db, but I will cut it to -17, or goose it to -6. Gain on sub itself is at 3/4 volume. I should really turn down the gain, but the 600 is a pig to move, and I'm lazy. Adjusting from the receiver is easy enough.

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So this happens across the board on all inputs?

Is the test tone generated by the receiver or a DVD/CD?

A little hard to describe. Not necessarily on all inputs, but there is a lack of the lower freq.

The tone was from the receiver.

I wonder if it isn't so much the speakers, but the DVD / Receiver connection? Or perhaps the receiver itself?

I have the DVD hooked up via a digital coaxial cable. There isn't much to it, but I wonder if something between the connections is jacked up...

The funny thing is I seemed to have more bass with the plain tv speakers. But I may just be remembering wrong there.

OK, does your receiver have a little display with all the speakers on it? Are you sure that the sub is set to be on on all inputs? Mine was off on one or two inputs for awhile.

Didn't notice because of the M80s for awhile, but...

In any case, check the phase on the sub. Lightly touch the surround of the driver and see if it's moving during those heavy bass scenes.

With a digital connection, you should be getting everything, unless you're, say, in pure direct (or the like) where it takes the two channels from the CD and puts them exclusively on the 2 front speakers. Even then, you should have a fairly significant amount of bass from the M60s.

Have you tried the "bass crawl" technique for positioning the sub? Put the sub in your primary listening position, play some bass heavy music, and crawl around until you find a spot that has good bass (tight, clear, loud, etc.). Then switch positions, you back in the chair and the sub where you found the good bass. You should now have the good bass you heard in the primary listeing spot. Placement is crucial, as I found out, since there are a few dead spots in my room where almost all the bass cancels (which sounds like your situation).

Just to ask a dumb question, is the green light 'on' on the back of the sub? If its yellow or not on at all, then something's not giving it power.

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The funny thing is I seemed to have more bass with the plain tv speakers.

That is funny. Are the main L/R in phase? That'll kill your bass if they aren't.

Yes, are you sure you have the positive-positive and negative-negative on the speaker hookups? Also, you are using the Sub Pre-out to Line in on your sub using a coax cable correct?

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Have you tried the "bass crawl" technique for positioning the sub? Put the sub in your primary listening position, play some bass heavy music, and crawl around until you find a spot that has good bass (tight, clear, loud, etc.). Then switch positions, you back in the chair and the sub where you found the good bass. You should now have the good bass you heard in the primary listeing spot. Placement is crucial, as I found out, since there are a few dead spots in my room where almost all the bass cancels (which sounds like your situation).

Ooo, good idea. I'll try this.

And yes, the green light is on.

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Is the test tone generated by the receiver or a DVD/CD?

...
The tone was from the receiver.

Try one of the Disney DVDs with THX Optimizer (Most recent Disney DVDs have this like Pirates or Pixar films like Cars, Incredibles)- or a calibration DVD like DVE or Avia and see if the test tone from the DVD source sounds close enough to the receiver tones.

If not, then you may have a problem with the receiver understanding the source signal from the DVD player. If so, then see this post for help.

Mark, welcome. Despite the lengthy discussion, there doesn't seem to be anything specific said about how you calibrated the sub level. Whether you let YPAO do it, which should be fine, or did it manually, there's a possibility that the 2600 sub out isn't putting enough voltage into the EP500 amp to keep it "awake". My own EP500 level setting was about 7 o'clock after calibration(you have yours around 9), which made my receiver put out more voltage than if the sub's level control was set higher. Try calibrating with the sub level control around 6-7.

I just wanted to update everyone and say thank you.

As it turns out, it was a little bit of everything. I'm almost embarrassed over here...

Basically, I started fresh. Reset defaults, turned down the subs gain to about 6 or 7, let the receiver auto configure, double checked it with my new nifty radio shack meter, and low and behold wonderful bass tones were heard throughout.

And the main listening position being in an acoustical dead spot didn't help.

It isn't terrible, but you can hear the difference if I move a few feet in any direction.

Time to find optional speaker placement now for my box of a room.

Thank you again to everyone. There is a really great community here. Thumbs up.

---
Mark

It's good to hear you got things figured out, enjoy.

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Time to find optional speaker placement now for my box of a room.

---
Mark

A new member of the "my room sucks" club? I'm sure Mark s Johnson would appreciate the company.

Good to hear you have got it worked out, except for the placement which can take a lot of experimentation over time (can't rush it really).

Enjoy.