I've read many times that a particular sub is picky regarding location, or "easy to place". I'm not talking physical size here, but rather for best sound.
I don't understand. Considering the length of low frequencies, wouldn't a good location fo one sub be just as good for the next, since it's more about the room dimensions? And, considering two subs would both be reproducing 28Hz, and 44Hz and 71.6Hz, how could one sub be "difficult to place" and another "easy to place"?
If a room has a problem with 37Hz, with a huge suckout or peak for example, shouldn't two different subs placed in the same location have the same FR issues?
In other words, I'm thinking that particular rooms are difficult...(Suck, even)... or well-designed and it's not the sub that is easy or difficult to place, but the room that causes issues.
Is this incorrect? (allowing for a situation such as having a room with a peak at 29Hz that would make a sub with a dip at 29Hz seem easier to place "in that particular room"...???
I suppose you are right. It's just a frame of reference. It's probably the room that is picky, could be both. Although when I had some friends bring their subs over to do a little comparison a couple years ago we found the SVS was easier to place than the EP350 or the Hsu. So ??? There are probably many factors.
I am surprised you are asking the questions based on the sensitivity of those ears of yours Spock!!!
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how could one sub be "difficult to place" and another "easy to place"?
Maybe they are basing this on the relative weight and size of the sub? I'm sure an EP175 is "easier to place" than an EP600 
Seriously, I think your logic is correct. How difficult a sub is to place in a room, usually has a lot to do with the owners expectations. I suppose some of the subs with built-in room EQ might be "easier" to place, since they make adjustments for the specific room.
would a bottom firing sub have the same room harmonics as a front firing sub ?
would a sub with a 8" woofer have the same room harmonics as a sub with a 12" woofer ?
maybe the 'ease of placement' is dependent on these and/or other variables ?
I can say i had to do the subwoofer crawl to get the flattest response in my squarish room with EP175.
Randy
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would a bottom firing sub have the same room harmonics as a front firing sub ?
would a sub with a 8" woofer have the same room harmonics as a sub with a 12" woofer ?
maybe the 'ease of placement' is dependent on these and/or other variables ?
That's a broad question.
Sound is about air movement. The biggest variables therefore are the driver size, cabinet size and location to walls in distance units.
Think of the pebble in the pond when dealing with low frequency sounds. They are non-directional to the ear because of their longer wavelength.
Uh, what was the question again?
I'm off track.
Must be the glass of luscious Mondavi.
Yes, it is air movement. But a 12" cone moves more air, does it not, than an 8" cone? The air from a bottom firing sub has to make a 90 degree change in axis before it reaches your ear. Plus, the air most likely disperses in a radius after hitting the floor or floor plate, which means it is hitting rear and side walls directly rather than hitting a far wall and bouncing back as a front-throw speaker would do. A speaker with a throw of 3" must have different air motion than a speaker with 2.5" of throw. I think there are more variables than we might be accounting for offhand here.
I think its how each sub interacts in that same room. Before I bought the EP600, I had an Axiom mfg sub with two 10" drivers in the same cabinet - one forward firing, and one down firing. The ports were down firing as well. It seemed that I could drop that thing just about anywhere, and the modes weren't a big issue.
In the same (current) room, I've had a heck of a time placing the 600. Now, there is no comparison in sound quality - it goes deeper with far, far more impact, and is much tighter with music. The thing is simply amazing in that size of room.
It makes sense that it is a combination of all the factors. I guess the answer to Mark's question is that calling the sub picky is just an easy way to state the problem. In the end, all other things being equal, your room isn't changing when you replace a sub. The room is the constant. A different sub isn't going to make the room better or worse. It will just interact differently.
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your room isn't changing when you replace a sub. The room is the constant. A different sub isn't going to make the room better or worse. It will just interact differently.
yea, I agree with that.
I wanna get my avia disk and meter over to my brothers with his EP500. I curious how the trim settings will affect the flatness, in his given room.
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The air from a bottom firing sub has to make a 90 degree change in axis before it reaches your ear. Plus, the air most likely disperses in a radius after hitting the floor or floor plate, which means it is hitting rear and side walls directly rather than hitting a far wall and bouncing back as a front-throw speaker would do.
One cannot think so linear with this.
I mentioned to someone before to think less linear and they got upset.
Think of sound in multiple dimensions (the drop of water in a calm pond moves water not just along the surface, but also below).
Have you ever closed a door in one part of the house and heard another door in your house rattle not a split second after? Or a window? Open a window and have a door down the hall slam shut?
How can a door that is 30-50 feet away be affected by a window so quickly?
Same as sound, it is pressure and not the physical action of a 3' by 3' blast of wind coming in the window, crusing down the hall, ricocheting off of each wall until it hits the door slamming it shut.
Sound is about "pressure" in the air. One cannot view it solely as a linear function of a single mass moving in a specific direction 'fired' by a woofer, hitting a wall, ricocheting exactly 90 degrees, etc. There is way more to it than that (although with increasingly higher frequencies this does become more the case).
Yes air molecules will interact with walls relative to distances to the pressure change source (the source of the pressure energy being exerted which decreases with distance) being part of the mix.
The very instant a woofer starts a 15Hz tone, whether down firing or not, the pressure change is already affecting items 50 feet away in your house. I highly doubt you would hear any difference with a down firing vs. forward, subwoofer. I once took my EP350 and turned it to face the floor and placed it on 2 stacks of hockey pucks at each corner for kicks.
I think i still have a picture of that somewhere in my files.
I understand the nature of pressure waves as well as the next hobbyist/layman, I suppose. I was simply trying to introduce an example of the variables that might apply to different subwoofer designs. And instantaneous is a little loose in this context. Regardless of how accurately the human ear can discern sound below 60Hz, it is still sound and as such still travels at 760mph at sea level, give or take. So the effect of the soundwave hitting a rear and/or wall then propagating throughout the room from a bottom-fire woofer will have different consequences than a than the effects from a front firing sub. Delay is delay. I suppose I could have prefaced my earlier comment by stating the obvious about the nature of soundwaves but most of us here understand the basics. I certainly wasn't trying to describe a pressure wave as linear.
If you use your own description and apply it to a front and a bottom firing sub you can see what I mean about the propagation of the waves from the cone. It obviously is not a simple problem since there is always much discussion such as this on these forums. The effects of resonance, room size, subwoofer design, cone size, etc. obviously play into this because if not you would be able to toss a sub in a corner and call it a day.
P.S. Dammit, Mark! You cooked this broth, you need to get back in here and eat it!
What makes that one on the right only for men?
It's pH balanced for a...
No, that's not right.
It's in a manly green...
No...
Women can't handle THE SUPER SNACK.
Probably not...
It's only sold in, ahem, exotic locales.
Probably not...
Good question.
Looking at the fine print, do the words "intelligent connoisseur" and "finer points in life" belong in the same sentence with "crispy pretzel"?
Clearly, you, sir, are not an intelligent connoisseur who enjoys the finer things in life.
Not to put too fine a point on it, you lack that certain je ne sais quoi that allows you to enjoy the finer points in life. You could, of course, pick up a pack of pocky and run them through a pencil sharpener. Then you'd have some fine crispy pretzel chocolatey points to enjoy.
No, you stick your pocky in a pencil sharpener and see what happens!
I guess we know what a Men's Pocky is now.
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I guess we know what a Men's Pocky is now.
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Then shouldn't she look happier. She's got a whole pack.
Cultural difference? That's how they show pleasure?
Ah ha! There is one scene in F&F Tokyo Drift, when they are eating what I thought looked like a dark, uncooked noodle. Now I know what it was! It was Pocky!
Sure. "Is that a pretzel in your Pocky or are you just happy sashimi?"
I think your logic is sound in that two subs placed very close together will have similar peaks/valleys in bass response. The slight difference in position could make a difference, but I'd guess it would be minimal.
The manufacturer of my sub suggests that multiple subs be placed together. I'm sure they know more about this than I do, but if you have a major room boundary issue (or suckout), it seems more logical to have the subs in separate locations in order to even out room pressurization. Some publications suggest that this is also the way to go with multiple subs (and personal experience also seems to support this). It makes sense, really. If you're pressurizing the room from different locations, boundary effects will be unique for each sub, giving a more even response - assuming you take time to find the best locations. Of course, then you may end up with timing issues if the subs are not equal distant to the listening area.
I know I could never place another sub in the corner with my existing one. The HUGE peak at 30Hz would be untamable with two subs there (built-in PEQ can barely tame it as it is). Luckily, I have no real suckout zones, though I certainly have a few areas that do have stronger bass response, overall. Two subs, properly placed, would likely even things out a bit.
