Hello:
I'm in the market for a new CDP - my friends tell me i'm out of the times with a 1985 Philips & 1990 Sony.
A friend suggested the CD-A8T, a Chineses-made Tube/Solid State HDCD/CD Player ($700 US + $40 shipping + duty), with a three year warrantee. Anything goes wrong, you tell them, and they ship you a new part. I don't know the exact details.
He rates it at A++, says the remote is made of cast aluminum and weighs about a pound, and the CDP is built like a brick ....,
Anyone have experience with this one, or wish to offer comments?
CD-A8T CD Player
These Chinese hybrid players are getting good reviews. The popular Shanling models are very good performers and may be slightly cheaper. There is also a more expensive T100 model.
http://www.charismaaudio.com/T80.htmlUsed go for around C$575.
Thanks Jake:
I would agree based on my Chinese-made hybrid integrated amp that the Chinese are in the midst of turning out very good audio equipment, and are currently fine tuning their processes. We're going to see the same cycle the Japenese went through.
I looked at the Shanling T80, and found it expensive (I think it was about $1200 US or so on Ebay). Based on that price, I didn't venture into their higher numbered models.
Here's my only comment:
It seems like an awful lot of money for a CD player, especially when you've already got a tube amp.
Let us know what you think of it. I heard the Shanling at a local shop and was very impressed. I'll probably bring my Rotel 1072 up and do a side by side. I know several friends who say there isn't a CDP at that price point that can match it performance wise. Yes the Chinese are really bringing our neat hybrid gear. They still have a way to go with quality control though which continues to be a concern I have with Chinese goods generally.
kcarlile:
1. This comment is not directed to you in particular, but, would someone like to post a matrix which defines price vs CDP attributes, and while they're at it, they might as well continue on with preamps, amps, speakers, etc. The price you pay is based on item popularity, what you read, the opinions of friends, and what you hear. Unfortunately, with many people, the last factor itemised doesn't carry very much weight in the selection process.
2. Sorry, but you lost me on the CDP vs amp comment. How is the purchase of a tube CDP related to a tube amp?
If you're already modifying the output with tubes, do you need to add another set of tubes to modify the output?
kcarlile:
1. I still miss your point. Within any complex piece of electronics, thousands of transformations/converstions are taking place every second; that's the nature of dynamic equipment. So the point is ...
2. With solid state equipment, you have bipolar circuits interfacing with diodes, FET's, etc. And the point would be ....
We're obviously not going to agree. I think that solid state is far more accurate than tubes, but tubes can make nice adjustments to the sound. That was my point.
kcarlile:
1, Each has their pros and cons; you just have to decide which you like better, or in my case, experiment with both to find if I think one provides superior audio over the other.
2. Tube amps produce more harmonic distortion, but the type they produce is even order distortion, and is not as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion transistors produce. Large amounts of even-order distortion (as high as 1-2%) produces little listening fatigue, and can even be relatively pleasant. On the other hand, small amounts of odd-order distortion (less than 0.5%) are audible, even by untrained ears, and make music harder to enjoy.
3. When tramsistors saturate, it's like falling off a cliff, while when a tube saturates, the roll-off is gentle. Tubes use dangerously high supplies, while in general, a transistor doesn't. Tubes have a much shorter life span than transistors. And I think in general, transistor are much cheaper than tubes.
3. So you see, you can choose as many parameters as you like to compare, until someone runs out. Then the parameters have to be rated as to their significance in the application.
If you are interested in a vacuum tube based player
Pacific Valve has a nice selection of players.
wid:
Do you, or do you have friends who have experience with Pacific. If so, I would appreciate your/their feedback, provided that you/they have the time. One-liner comments are fine.
Thanks for the URL.
I do not have experiance with them but they have a pretty good following at
HeadFi. I have been in contact through email with them and they were very good at getting back to me.
Jakeman:
Re: CD-A8T, Tube/Solid State HDCD/CD Player
1. The Chinese audio place I want to buy from aren't currently interesrested in doing business in Canaada, although they have shops set up in the US. I have a contact in Toronto who told me to call one of the founders and tell him that he bought from them. Three E-mails & no answer.
The player is called: CD-A8T, Tube/Solid State HDCD/CD Player, and is $700US + $40 US shipping + Canadian duty.
AAA-Audio2. The nature of this E-mail was to post the results of your Rotel Vs Shanling? test), if you would be so kind. At its current sell-price, it better be pretty f'n good!
3. Keeep in mind that what we buy is made in the Orient, but we pay maketing costs on top of the product. The Chinese have no marketing charges.
Tamzarian,
I have no comment on the tubes verses solid state. Never heard a tube, but quite curious to do so one of these days…..
In regards to Ken’s point that you did not get, I believe that he is wondering why you would want (or prefer) to have a tube source AND a tube amp. As being a tube trait idiot, I can understand his question. Would not the tube amp add that little extra sonic characteristic you are looking for - seeing how it is downstream from the source (CD player)??
Again, I don’t understand the sonic difference between tubes and solid state, or how it is achieved, but logic makes me wonder why you would need both source and amp to be tube to get that “tube sound”.
I don’t think Ken was being anything but curious. I know I am…..
That CDP sure looks cool. I can't find any evidence in the reviews or photos that it utilizes tubes.
mdrew:
In general, if you we're interfacing to different logic or anaog families, the intefaces would not be compatible, so we have to make them so. To interface to a speaker you must provide:
1. low voltage
2. high current
which is opposite fo what a tube provides.
As I posted yesterday:
1. Each has their pros and cons; you just have to decide which you like better, or in my case, experiment with both to find if I think one provides superior audio over the other.
2. Tube amps produce more harmonic distortion, but the type they produce is even order distortion, and is not as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion transistors produce. Large amounts of even-order distortion (as high as 1-2%) produces little listening fatigue, and can even be relatively pleasant. On the other hand, small amounts of odd-order distortion (less than 0.5%) are audible, even by untrained ears, and make music harder to enjoy.
3. When tramsistors saturate, it's like falling off a cliff, while when a tube saturates, the roll-off is gentle. Tubes use dangerously high supplies, while in general, a transistor doesn't. Tubes have a much shorter life span than transistors. And I think in general, transistor are much cheaper than tubes.
4. So you see, you can choose as many parameters as you like to compare, until someone runs out. Then the parameters have to be rated as to their significance in the application.
5. If you still don't undertstand what I"m tryin to say, say so, and I'll give it another shot.
wld:
I will definitely investigate these vendors.
Thanks
Where you are loosing me is why the need for BOTH – AMP and CD player. Wouldn’t using just ONE of the two, and not BOTH, be enough to get that tube sound you desire??? Or is it the combination of BOTH that makes a difference??
I’m not sure how else I can ask this. Does anyone else understand what I’m asking??
Mike has accurately translated my point.
BTW, if your CDP has .5% THD, throw it out a window and go buy a $20 one.
Further, the figures I have heard (from Alan, I believe) are that THD below 1% is undetectable by the human ear.
mdrew:
I understand the question, and never in my life have I heard of a combo amp/CDP in one package. I was ignorant of the fact that one could buy a combination amp/CDP in on package. Pls. give me some names, and my apologies will be fortcoming.
nope, you missed that one. He wasn't talking about a combo unit, he was asking the same thing I did.
Quote:
To interface to a speaker you must provide:
1. low voltage
2. high current
which is opposite fo what a tube provides.
Both voltage and current are important.
An amplifier limited to a 5ARMS output will deliver 200W into an 8Ohm load regardless of the available voltage. Having more voltage available will permit the amp to drive more power into higher impedance loads (within the current output limit).
An amplifier limited to a 40VRMS output will deliver 200W into an 8Ohm load regardless of the available current. Having more current available will permit the amp to drive more power into lower impedance loads (within the voltage output limit).
I think what you meant to say is that tubes are better mated to higher impedance loads that require "less" current whereas solid state is better suited to lower impedance loads that demand "more" current.
To answer mdrew and kcarlile, if you want "tube sound" you do not need a tube source. You only need a tube amp.
kcarlile:
Thanks again for another lucid explanation. Would it be within your capacity to explain what you're talking about. You're giving everyone the impression that your're talking about a combo amp/CDP, and at the same time you're saying you're not. Is it too much trouble to to say what you're talking about?
Or perhaps when rational people explain things so they can be understood, you find it exhillirating to play the chase game. Earlier, I politely asked you for the benefit of the Forum to explain the nature of your comments/queries, but apparently that hasn't sunk in. I'm asking you again to be polite enough to explain answers or comments. Yes, some of us are so thick that we are in need of these explanations.
Way to be condescending and superior at the same time.
Moreover, I wrote a further explanation in the other thread (which you thanked me for).
I didn't ever talk about a combo tube amp/CDP, you're mixing me up with your mixed up impressions of MDrew's comment.
What I'm saying is in the post above your last by Mojo, and I think you're the only one assuming the existance of a combination device.
You don't need a tube amp and a tube CDP to achieve tube sound; it seems to me that that would be redundant. That is what I'm saying, that's what Mojo's saying, that's what Mike is saying.
Spend your money how you want--obviously you're not interested in advice that contradicts what you've heard or read before.
Mike, the basic object of an amplifier(or pre-amp)is to amplify without adding any audible sonic characteristic of its own(the proverbial "straight wire with gain"). If an amplifier doesn't meet that standard, then it doesn't fully qualify as a high fidelity component. Both transistors and tubes act as valves to measure out the amount of power needed, and correct tube design can be competitive with solid state design in achieving audibly flawless amplification. Using tubes doesn't necessarily cause a higher level of second harmonic distortion if a balanced push-pull configuration is used. The tube design would still have 3rd and other odd orders of distortion, but it might have an even higher 2nd order distortion if not designed to minimize it. This is apparent from lab tests on amplifiers, such as those on SoundStage, showing either higher or lower 2nd order distortion, depending on the total design, not whether tubes happen to be employed. As the Stereo Review amplifier test which has been frequently cited illustrates, there's no necessary "tube sound".
Quote:
...there's no necessary "tube sound".
What about during clipping?
Mojo:
This is exactly what I meant to say; the following quote from Mojo:
"I think what you meant to say is that tubes are better mated to higher impedance loads that require "less" current whereas solid state is better suited to lower impedance loads that demand "more" current."
Thank you for making this important correction.
Quote:
Quote:
...there's no necessary "tube sound".
What about during clipping?
This discussion been going on since the invention of the transistor. Some people make the curious and silly sounding statement that "tube watts" are more than "SS watts". What they are referring to is the soft clipping aspect of tubes that gently roll off sound rather than the hard clipping off the cliff, odd order harmonic and intermodulation distortion you hear when a SS amp clips.
Both technologies offer advantages and disadvantages when used in amplifiers or preamplifiers or hybrids. In my own still evolving view, a well designed audio component will shine regardless of whether its SS or tube based. Very generally speaking:
A solid state component will present the transient or attack far better than a tube based unit. The sense of , articulation and the way images are conveyed in space seem to favour SS. But the tube units because of their greater even order harmonics, especially second order, can have better low level detail and dynamics which can sound more natural. . When many people talk of tube sound they are likely referring to the decay, and continuious notes with more pronounced harmonics, which does make a more airy midrange. Many guitarists favour tube amps for this reason. Where tubes are generally inferior is in bass and LF reproduction which can sound loose and sloppy because of the greater decay and distortion compared to SS. As for HF reproduction, I have found them a mixed bag with siblance being more a problem with SS than tube designs but tube designs having more a tendency to roll off highs than SS.
Like alot of audio concepts we are talking shades of grey here and not absolutes, which is why I take pains to point out that these are generalizations at best and my own evolving observations. I have heard SS components that do sound "tube" like and vice versa. At the moment I'm trying to get the best of both technologies by running a tube Mcintosh 220 preamp into bridged SS Bryston 4bsst amps, so far with very pleasing results.
kcarlile:
Read my apology on the M60 + SAub thread. I really screwed up big-time yesterday with my posts. I've apologised to everyone on the Forum, and I'm apologing to you here. Will you accept it?
mojo:
Thanks for explaining that. My reasoning for having two tube devices was that although, total distortion would increase, tube 2nd order distortion would cause an overall pleasing audio sensation. Since I already have a SS CDP and amp, I can experiment with the two different types of CDPs.
You're not the only one to blame for escalating a non-situation into a situation. Sometimes people drag their "Jump to Conclusions" mat out of cold storage instead of giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Welcome.
John:
This is the important one to me, which is from one of my earlier posts:
"Tube amps produce more harmonic distortion, but the type they produce is even order distortion, and is not as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion transistors produce. Large amounts of even-order distortion (as high as 1-2%) produces little listening fatigue, and can even be relatively pleasant. On the other hand, small amounts of odd-order distortion (less than 0.5%) are audible, even by untrained ears, and make music harder to enjoy."
Tam, check the amplifier lab measurements, such as those at SoundStage which I mentioned. All amps produce both even and odd order distortion, in varying proportions. The use of tubes can result in 2nd order distortion being higher than third, or the third being higher, depending on the overall design(e.g. using a balanced push-pull configuration to partially cancel the even order components).
JohnK:
I thought the point of what I was saying is 2nd-order & in general even-order harmonic distortion is pleasant, while odd-order is not. Am I correct?
I shall check your reference.
Thanks
pmbuko:
I'm glad that you could see that an ill-perceived issue escalated into something that shouldn't have occurred. I have no grudges against ANYONE on this Forum, and I find them all to be be congenial people.
Nonetheless, I STILL apologise for the going-ons. (Hope those uppercase letters don't get me in trouble again).
Best Regards
JohnK:
Would you pls. give me a URL; I''m gonna' spend yrs. in that vault. Thanks.
Yes, I should have supplied the link.
Here's their list. It would be worthwhile to analyze all the reports when you have some time, but in checking I find that fortunately the very first solid state amp listed, the Accustic Arts, illustrates the point by having only the 2nd order harmonic high enough to appear above the noise level. Likewise, looking down to the Atma-Sphere tube amp, we find one of the examples of a tube amp having a higher 3rd order harmonic than the second.
Distortion characteristics and some other factors(e.g. very low damping factor, soft-clipping, etc.)sometimes spoken of as if they were unique to tube applications can be duplicated in solid state if desired.
JohnK:
Thanks for the URL.
I enjoy both solid state and tube components. My current favorite solid state amp is an Anthem PVA 5. I took JohnK's advice and checked out the SoundStage amp test spec page and noticed the Anthem PVA 2 (same as the PVA 5 but with only 2 mono amp components instead of 5). I was surprised to read: " Amount of the signal distortion products is very low, as is the amount of AC line-hum harmonics. Virtually absent is the cluster of AC line harmonics around some of the signal harmonics as has been seen in some other amplifiers measured." I thought JohnK had previously and frequently told us that a well designed amp would not manifest AC line noise. Maybe I have it wrong ... dunno.
I havent't found SoundStage.com specs and test results for a SET tube amp. I did see several results for Push Pull tube amps, but I never really warmed to the sound of Push Pull design tube amps.
I was under the impression that SET tube amps have dominant second order harmonics although I wouldn't begin to suggest that such a quality has anything to do with the sweet music my SET amp reproduces.
I enjoy all my systems. However, I prefer the tube system most of all. While some may think that real world amps operate like a wire which simply amplifies the signal without adding anything more I think this is extremely unlikely. So many little parts, quantum fuzzies and other imponderables which are invisible to those who already know everything.
Straight wire gain - It just doesn't happen in the real world.
I note someone posed the matter as presuming that tube amps "add" something to the signal. I suppose all amps actually add or subtract something from the signal. Nevertheless, the presumption that tube amps add something presupposes that tube amps are not hi fidelity components and that presumption is simply silly.
I prefer my tube system to all my other music reproduction systems because the music the SET amp reproduces is sweeter. Sweeter? What does that mean? someone might ask. Does it add sugar to the sound? No. It is a subtle quality which you get to appreciate after listening to music for a while. Just sounds better, nicer ... sweeter when sweet is called for. Like Jazz, even Ornette Coleman's cacophonous abuse of the saxophone sounds more like you were there and hating it in person. Female vocals ... sweeter, even Janice Joplin, more like you were there and could smell the Southern Comfort to go with the music.
If it sounds more like live music, maybe the SET tube amp is not adding anything, but rather acting like the straight music wire JohnK idealizes. I dunno.
A firm believer in the proposition that you can't have too much of a good thing, I also use tube sources to go with the SET 5 wpc tube amp ... an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CDP with tube output section, upsampler, big feet, powerkord upgrade, and some fancy tubes. The combination? Sweet! I don't have to wipe maple syrup off my audio rack, sweet, not cloying, sweet, not inaccurate. Do I like it better than the Sony CA9ES CDP? Yes, I think so, though subtle ... have to live with it for a while before the big smile blooms large as the music delights the soul.
Not satisfied with only one tubie source, I picked up, restored and then modified a beautiful H.H. Scott stereomaster tuner (a work of real beauty). All I can say is that the Scott tube tuner blows away any of the fancy solid state tuners I have used before.
I listen to KJAZ and love the music.
So, ask me to explain why my tube components sound so good, I cannot help you. Ask me whether they do sound so good and I can confidently state they sound wonderful, they sound better than some very nice sounding solid state equipment I have also enjoyed.
The tube components delight.
My advice? After you have massaged your solid state 2 channel system to the point you think you have a great sounding system, grab a relatively inexpensive integrated SET tube amp like an Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT or a nice Eastern Electric SET amp, a nice pair of Axiom M3s, a quick subwoofer, like an EP400, or if that stretches the budget too far, a nice quick Velodyne 10".
Put it in your dining room, or den. I think you will agree you will have found a feast for your ears, a tubed smile generator, a sweet music maker.
Make me wrong.
Hi,
Your tube amp is a real work of art. Do you have the EP400? Can you tell us about it?
Ah, Mr. Mojo ... I haven't gotten any of the new EPs, yet. My big 7.1 system uses an SVS 20-39+ or something like that. It thunders. OK for music, although with the Thiel CS3.6s the sub just provides a bit of foundation. The 5.2 system uses a Dahlquist PDQ1500 and Klipsch LF10. The modified Sonic Impact T-Amp 2 channel dining room system uses the Velodyne CHT10. The Garage Kenwood KA9100 system uses the modified Kenwood SW300 sub.
The tube system uses a Vance Dickerson Titanic 10 or maybe 12. I am certain that a nice EP400 would take this achingly wonderful yet modest 2 channel tube system to an even higher level of musical exquisitude.