I have Axiom setup with a Harmon Kardon AVR635. M22's, QS8's, VP150, and a EP500.
When I watch HD-DVD or DVD movies at loud volumes sometimes the voices come across with a raspy-ness and harshness during conversations. I've read that it might be the receiver being too "bright". I often find myself turning the treble way down to alleviate the problem.
Anything I can do/check to help this out?
Thanks for any help!
Can you quantify "loud"? Are you sure you're not over-driving your HK?
Hm.. Well if you ask my wife it's WAY TO LOUD. But in all honestly I wouldn't think at the volume I'm talking about would push the reciever to the max. Loud enough to give the theater effect. But still alot of volume to go on the reciever knob. Does that answer the question? And how would I know if I was pushing the reciever to much?
Thanks!
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And how would I know if I was pushing the reciever to much?
Raspiness and harshness for one. It may sound like I'm trying to be funny but I'm really not. Unless you have an oscilloscope to see clipped waveforms, your ears are the best judge.
Does the tone control help? If so, you're likely not over-driving it.
You said "sometimes" which leads be to believe that your HK's 75W are being taken to task during movies that have large dynamics. Or, maybe you have a damaged tweeter or amplifier channel.
Turn your speakers off and then turn each one on all by its lonesome. Any raspiness or kazooing from one and not another could be an indication of tweeter damage. Replace that speaker with another and if the kazooing moves with the speaker, tweeter damage is probable. If not, that particular HK channel has a problem.
I'm running a VP150 with an HK 635 and have never had any of the issues you are describing, nor have I ever felt the need to tweak the tone controls on the 635. I also believe there are a few of us with AVR635s around these parts and I don't recall ever reading problems such as yours on the board. To me it doesn't sound like a power problem ... I presume everything is connected correctly and properly calibrated? Have you nailed the problem to the 150 center and if so, have you checked the drivers in the speaker to make sure they are working like they should be? Also, do you have this issue whenever you are in 2 channel stereo mode?
If you want to check if it's a problem with the receiver you can connect one of your 60's as your center.
"You said "sometimes" which leads be to believe that your HK's 75W are being taken to task during movies that have large dynamics. Or, maybe you have a damaged tweeter or amplifier channel."
We've (I!) have had our 635 cranked to some extremely loud levels over the past couple of years with the 150 and have never felt as though the receiver was ever peaking. Unless JB is turning the volume level to the utmost extremes, which from the way he is describing I wouldn't think so, I wouldn't believe it's a power issue with the 635 ... I'm betting it's something else.
Thanks everyone.
I definitely don't turn it up to the Max volume. I really don’t think I’m straining the receiver. If the volume was more close to full tilt I would definitely feel that may be the cause.
When I say sometimes I mean it depends on the movie and the person talking I guess. Depending on the deepness of the voice of the person it could sound like they are whispering. Hope that makes sense. I want to make it clear that it's not every movie or voice. And it's usually only noticeable when there is a conversation without much background noise. I distinctly remember a scene in the latest Mission Impossible movie when Tom Cruise is talking to his wife near the fridge in the kitchen. It was very evident something was strange with the sound. It sounded like he was whispering with a “hissing” at the end of the words.
Adjusting the Treble helps but does not solve the problem. And obviously hurts the sounds overall.
So if this is a possible bad tweeter what other tips are helpful in locating it? What else could it possibly be if not a tweeter or strained receiver?
JB I had a driver go bad on one of my 80s not too terribly long after purchasing them and I located the bad driver by playing music while placing my ear within an inch or so to each driver until the culprit was found...you won't need to turn the volume up loud in order to locate a bad driver in this manner. You should definitely tell a discernible difference between the good drivers and the bad driver, if that is indeed the problem.
Other than maybe some sort of digital processing issue within the receiver in a particular mode (DD, PLIIx, DTS...etc) I wouldn't know what the cause may be.
Someone with a lot more knowledge than me will show up sooner or later, good luck!
If it is just for some movies, it could also be that you are victim of extra highs in the sound material itself added to compensate for movie theaters size and number of people. Does your receiver have a "re-eq" feature to compensate? With many movies meant for big, big screens (Harry Potter, X-Men and so on), I have exagerated "s" until I turn the re-eq to on.
That's a great point. It's called "cinema equalization" on most pre/pros and it should be turned to "on" to tame the highs.
Ok. So I went on a hunt for a damaged tweeter or driver and came up with nothing. I couldn't hear any differences between them.
I also remember another well known music DVD where I experienced this problem. It's the Eagles Farewell Tour: Live From Melbourne. What an amazing sounding DVD btw. I listen to it set on DTS and I could hear the harshness with the highs.
Anyone with the H/K 635 know of a "re-eq" setting? I'm going to hunt for it.
Thanks again everyone.
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Anyone with the H/K 635 know of a "re-eq" setting? I'm going to hunt for it.
JB I did a 5 or 10 minute quick through of my 635 manual and didn't come up with anything regarding the equalization that either Eric or Mojo is referring to...maybe a more thorough search will yield something.
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Anyone with the H/K 635 know of a "re-eq" setting? I'm going to hunt for it.
JB I did a 5 or 10 minute quick through of my 635 manual and didn't come up with anything regarding the equalization that either Eric or Mojo is referring to...maybe a more thorough search will yield something.
I Couldn't find anything either unfortunately.
Do you have your grills on or off?
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Do you have your grills on or off?
Right now, off (Because I was trying to find a bad tweeter or driver). Usually they are on.
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If it is just for some movies, it could also be that you are victim of extra highs in the sound material itself added to compensate for movie theaters size and number of people. Does your receiver have a "re-eq" feature to compensate? With many movies meant for big, big screens (Harry Potter, X-Men and so on), I have exagerated "s" until I turn the re-eq to on.
That's exactly how I would refer to it... Exagerated "s".
This won't help much, but at least the letters "Re-Eq" are now well identified to be a THX trademark! (no kidding).
Onko Asia's Web-site (I have an 805) says the "very helpful"
following:
"Re-Equalization (Re-EQ™)
Movies are mixed for large cinemas, where the speakers are placed farther away from the listener. THX Re-EQ re-establishes the accuracy of the tonal balance for close-range home theater speakers. Without THX Re-EQ, higher frequencies sound excessively edgy or bright."
Too bad they don't mention EXACTLY which frequencies and by how much. That would allow you to either just play with trebble settings or, if you have an equilizer, use its more precise knobs. You may want to look it up on THX web-sites (if such a thing exists).
Not familiar with the HK's but do they eq settings like the Denon's auto setup? If so turn them off, in my opinion. My Axioms had to much midrange sound when using the auto eq.
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Not familiar with the HK's but do they eq settings like the Denon's auto setup? If so turn them off, in my opinion. My Axioms had to much midrange sound when using the auto eq.
So the plot thickens. Because your not familar with the H/K's you probably don't know the answer to this question. I'm hoping someone familar with the H/K's will know this. I used the Auto EQ to initially. It set the speaker delay, size, etc. However the current setting is Ez Eq: Off. Also most of the settings I adjusted which turned EZ Setup settings off. So I would assume any Equalizer settings are off.
This doesn't have anything to do with auto-eq. On your Denon, if you go into the DD or DTS menu, you'll see the Cinema Equalization selection. Change that to "Yes" if your speakers aren't behind a screen.
I don't suppose its just some poorly recorded sections in the movie and the system is just exposing it as such?
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I don't suppose its just some poorly recorded sections in the movie and the system is just exposing it as such?
At first I assumed as such. But it's has become apparent to me that it's too consistent of a problem to be poor recordings. Atleast I think so.
Having the Denon EQ (or any other brand) on after autosetup CAN affect the sound of the speakers, especially at higher levels. And that goes for modes other than DD or DTS. After initial setup, with EQ turned on, my m60's sounded to harsh sounding because the midrange/high frequencies were enhanced by the eq settings.
After turning these features off and using a non altered signal, the music sounded natural and true to the source.
That goes the same for tone controls in my opinion.
How long have you had your system? If you've had it a while and this has just started happening, then you need to contact Axiom. Maybe something's fried in the crossover.
BTW, I was listening to Diana Krall live in Montreal on DVD DTS tonight and the only thing that will fix her sibilance is jaw reconstructive surgery. Her CDs are all that way too although maybe not as pronounced.
JB, even those who like to create imaginary sound flavors for receivers would put the HK in their "warm" list rather than their "bright" one, so you can disregard what you read on that point.
If you have EZEq off, that can't be part of the problem, but you might try the EQ process on the chance that it would help(which some users report)rather than hurt.
As was mentioned, Re-Eq is a proprietary THX process to reduce high frequencies in some movies which sound excessive in home listening. The 635 isn't THX and doesn't have it, but applying some treble cut with the tone control on offending material has a somewhat similar effect.
If you've checked carefully enough for a damaged tweeter(my first suspicion), it would appear that some of the material just has too much treble for your listening room(or you should listen to your wife and turn it down).
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JB, even those who like to create imaginary sound flavors for receivers would put the HK in their "warm" list rather than their "bright" one
Can I get mine in Brighterscotch Ripple?
Bren R.
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Can I get mine in Brighterscotch Ripple?
Mmmm, what a deliciously disturbed waveform.
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How long have you had your system? If you've had it a while and this has just started happening, then you need to contact Axiom. Maybe something's fried in the crossover.
BTW, I was listening to Diana Krall live in Montreal on DVD DTS tonight and the only thing that will fix her sibilance is jaw reconstructive surgery. Her CDs are all that way too although maybe not as pronounced.
I've had it a year and half. It's always been there. Just got to the point that I wanted to do something about it, 
.
I'm going to try the EZEQ setting to see if I hear an improvement.
Just to double check. What should my crossover's be set at?
Does anyone know of this feature inside the Dolby Digital setup called Night Mode? It's set at the "Mid" setting.
If I'm not mistaken, Night Mode compresses the dynamic range so you can hear all of the detail without having the volume up too loud, so you can listen at night without disturbing others. So, as a rule, you want night mode off.
JBS,
you might be more happy with a couple of M2s wired in parallel, or a couple of M22 centre channels. (vertically orientated of course).
just a suggestion.
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JBS,
you might be more happy with a couple of M2s wired in parallel, or a couple of M22 centre channels. (vertically orientated of course).
just a suggestion.
Hm.. How come?
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Hm.. How come?
Some people prefer the sound of the Axiom bookshelves compared to the axiom centre channel. I have heard both the VP150, and my dual centre M2s...I like the sound of the dual M2s better...the VP150 sounded just as you described...at least to my ears. It doesn't matter to my father-in-law, which is why I suggested the VP150 centre for his room.
Yep, that's exactly what night mode is.
You said "...it got to the point where I wanted to do something about it.". Does this mean that this problem has been getting worse?
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Yep, that's exactly what night mode is.
You said "...it got to the point where I wanted to do something about it.". Does this mean that this problem has been getting worse?
No. I wouldn't say that. I would say it didn't bother me that much at first. But time and time again I had to low the treble to the point I decided to post a question.
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Hm.. How come?
Some people prefer the sound of the Axiom bookshelves compared to the axiom centre channel. I have heard both the VP150, and my dual centre M2s...I like the sound of the dual M2s better...the VP150 sounded just as you described...at least to my ears. It doesn't matter to my father-in-law, which is why I suggested the VP150 centre for his room.
Interesting. Would switching the VP150 channel with the M22 channel give me a hint that it could be the overall sound of the VP150?
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Interesting. Would switching the VP150 channel with the M22 channel give me a hint that it could be the overall sound of the VP150?
Yes it would. if you can situate the M22 vertically, it would be best. IF you like the M22, you will like the M2.
Since I've been using essentially the same setup for several years (Harmon Kardon AVR635, M22's, QS8's, VP150), I'll chime in. John is right in that the 635 does not have the THX Re-EQ option.
I don't know how long your night mode has been at 'mid', but that should definitely be off, unless you truly are using it with the intention that it was designed for. Turning night mode off seriously might rectify your problem.
I use the H/K auto-EQ on more than off, and do find it useful. As discussed, perhaps try using that again.
Maybe try some resistors in the VP150 and see if that tames the harshness of the tweeters you are hearing.
Bottom line, with my system, I've never noticed a pattern of the problem you're describing. Sure, a particular DVD or CD might have a little harshness, but that is more the source. So something sounds a little strange in your case. Hope you can figure it out.
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Yes it would. if you can situate the M22 vertically, it would be best. IF you like the M22, you will like the M2.
We must get together to try all the different speakers we have as centers, VP100,VP150,M2,M3,M22,M60 and get Mojo to bring an M80! I think this would give us an extremely good idea as to which would make the best center for most people.
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Since I've been using essentially the same setup for several years (Harmon Kardon AVR635, M22's, QS8's, VP150), I'll chime in. John is right in that the 635 does not have the THX Re-EQ option.
I don't know how long your night mode has been at 'mid', but that should definitely be off, unless you truly are using it with the intention that it was designed for. Turning night mode off seriously might rectify your problem.
I use the H/K auto-EQ on more than off, and do find it useful. As discussed, perhaps try using that again.
Maybe try some resistors in the VP150 and see if that tames the harshness of the tweeters you are hearing.
Bottom line, with my system, I've never noticed a pattern of the problem you're describing. Sure, a particular DVD or CD might have a little harshness, but that is more the source. So something sounds a little strange in your case. Hope you can figure it out.
I'll switch Night mode to OFF first thing. When you run the auto-EQ setup doesn't this force the speaker "sizes"? Once you adjust it manully it automatically turns the auto-EQ off?
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I'll switch Night mode to OFF first thing. When you run the auto-EQ setup doesn't this force the speaker "sizes"? Once you adjust it manully it automatically turns the auto-EQ off?
Honestly, I haven't run the auto-EQ in years, but from what I recall, it requires plenty of fine tuning. If I recall, I would run it in auto mode, it would set my speakers to large and with funky crossovers, then I'd manually set my speakers to small with the crossovers I wanted (80hz for M22's, and then 80 or 100 for the VP150 and QS8s (I can't remember)), and then I'd re-run the EQ in manual mode. Then everything should be set up the way you want it, and the EQ should be on.
If it turns it off, then just go into setup and turn the EQ on. The beauty is, it is pretty easy to switch back and forth, so you can see if you like it on or off.
Twin M80s flanked by twin M22s
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A link with Re-eq curve... down about 7dB at 20 KHz, with a -3dB point of about 7 KHz. Like turning the treble down a lot
audioholics
Ok. The auto EQ is horrible. I tried it a few times and everytime I turned it on it was a substantial decrease in audio quality. Not to mention my problem got worse.
Watched a few different clips of movies tonight in Dolby Digital and DTS. The hissing, exaggerated ssssss, or the whisperyness was still very evident. If I listen carefully to each speaker it's definetly from each one. So it seems it's either the speakers... or the reciever. Since knowone else with a 635 seems to have this issue or atleast gets bothered by it... I'm not sure what to do. Frustrating...
I'm thinking a processor and not an amp is what JB may be in need of at the moment ... sounds like maybe a receiver issue to me.
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A1400-8, nuf said?
Wife.... nuf said
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I'm thinking a processor and not an amp is what JB may be in need of at the moment ... sounds like maybe a receiver issue to me.
What are you thinking? Try a different reciever?
JB, we've pretty much eliminated a speaker issue and the settings on your 635 are jiving with the settings that most other 635 owners are using without these issues using the same speakers. It would be nice if you can get your hands on another receiver so that you may be able to compare, even if it's a borrowed unit.
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If I listen carefully to each speaker it's definetly from each one.
Which speakers are you referring to? All of them or just specific ones?
Hm... I don't know anyone that has a decent reciever either.
The fronts. The M22's and the VP150.
Do you have a boombox with speaker terminals that you can connect up temporarily?
Yes... I would have to find different guage wire though.
Even a bad receiver might help you eliminate either the speakers or the receiver from the equation. Perhaps you could take your M22s and/or receiver to an audio shop and ask to hook them up to see if they have something that sounds better. This could help you troubleshoot and if you find the problem you’ll already be in a place to start looking for a solution.
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Ok. The auto EQ is horrible. I tried it a few times and everytime I turned it on it was a substantial decrease in audio quality. Not to mention my problem got worse.
Since the problem got worse with the auto EQ on is it possible that your receiver is set to apply a manual EQ that just isn’t as bad. I had a similar problem with the auto EQ on my Denon making my center mostly and main somewhat sound hollow or weak and tinny with exenterated hissing sounds from some male voices. It was caused by the auto EQ clobbering the lower vocal frequency range which it automatically copied to the manual EQ when I first used it. This also only showed up in the three front and the QS8s I suspect because there just weren’t many male voices coming from the surrounds.
Dean
Why? Just use a few strands of the wire you already have.
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A1400-8, nuf said?
Wife.... nuf said
I think mine is holding back the "...you bought those so now I get to go buy something...."
No problem with that. She can buy an EP600
.
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Why? Just use a few strands of the wire you already have.
Much to big. Would never fit....
jbs,
is this problem with all the speakers or just the VP150? I highly suggest trying out the M22 centre to see if you like it.
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jbs,
is this problem with all the speakers or just the VP150? I highly suggest trying out the M22 centre to see if you like it.
Hey Hutzal,
It definetly sounds like it's an overall soundstage problem. I'm thinking about disconnecting the center and seeing what results I get though. I may do that tonight.
jbs, that sounds like a good idea, to run a phantom centre, you will then know if it is just the VP150, or something else. Also check to see if all your speakers are wired in phase, this is something that you may have overlooked...
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Wired in phase?
positive from speaker to positive on receiver, negative on speaker to negative on receiver.
Its probably smart to double check just to make sure they are all connected properly.
Gotchya. Might as well. I remember being very careful. But who knows.
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I remember being very careful. But who knows.
Yeah, who knows. My parents were very careful, too, and then they had me.
Not really, but I'm trying to add to my mythology.
Let me throw this out there. All my tests from quality music, DVD's, etc come from a Xbox DVD/HD-DVD player. I'm using an Xbox Monster cable/Optical cable. Is it all possible a source problem?
I don't want to start a war on anything like that but many have reported that fiber optic cable is "harsher" sounding than coax. I don't know if there is a scientific basis behind this or if it's psychological. I personally don't have an opinion on this at this time.
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Let me throw this out there. All my tests from quality music, DVD's, etc come from a Xbox DVD/HD-DVD player. I'm using an Xbox Monster cable/Optical cable. Is it all possible a source problem?
I have found when I use my DVD player as my source for my music, the cds all have a little to much brightness and when I use my cd player with analog output they sound smoother, whether or not it is due to the digital out I don't know but both players have virtually the sam especs for their cd playing ability, ie. Signal to noise ratio, etc.
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Let me throw this out there. All my tests from quality music, DVD's, etc come from a Xbox DVD/HD-DVD player. I'm using an Xbox Monster cable/Optical cable. Is it all possible a source problem?
You can try to connect the right left of the xbox outputs to the "CD" inputs on your receiver, and it should get the signal regardless of the fact that optical is connected as well.
I'm sure the audio will then be so mucky it won't matter.
This latest idea of the source just made me realize I need to try the M60s with the DVD player. I will report later.....
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I'm sure the audio will then be so mucky it won't matter.
It technically SHOULD be cleaner, as you are using left and right coaxial inputs.
But won't I lose the Dolby Digital, DTS, etc?
The xbox only has the component and optical cables. I'll have to find the original xbox cable with the left right composites.
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This latest idea of the source just made me realize I need to try the M60s with the DVD player. I will report later.....
FWIW, I did find the mids/uppers a little more distinct with the digital off the dvd player compared to the analog cd player, but not enough to come close to the M22 using analog.
I did hear more sibilance on the digital feed when using the M22s alone.
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This latest idea of the source just made me realize I need to try the M60s with the DVD player. I will report later.....
FWIW, I did find the mids/uppers a little more distinct with the digital off the dvd player compared to the analog cd player, but not enough to come close to the M22 using analog.
I did hear more sibilance on the digital feed when using the M22s alone.
Are you saying I need to purchase M80's, ?
So I did ALOT of testing tonight and found the following:
*Sirius via Anaglog composites had no harshness with music
*CD's via the Xbox DVD player had no harshness whatsoever
*Eagles Farewell tour DVD had alot of harshness and exaggerated "SSSSS"'s from voices when cranked loud. This came from the entire soundstage.
*HD-DVD and DVD movies with quality Dolby Digital audio have harshness and exaggerated "SSSSS"'s. Only when the voices are solo. The sound is amazing otherwise.
When I cranked the treble way down to about -8 it really helped with the harshness when watching the movies. It didn't seem to effect the overall audio. On the Eagles DVD it really hurt the overall audio when I did that even though it improved the harshness of the voices.
I did give the Auto-EQ another try and found it helped the problem with harshness if I gave it a -5 tilt. However this significantly lowered the overall volume and pretty much took most of the lower freqencies out. This left me without a sub,
.
My listening position is directly in front of the VP150 about 10 feet back. If I move about 4 feet to the left or right the harshness decreases but is still evident. Instead of disconnecting the center I lowered it's output to the max -10. This obviously helped but it was still evident. And it was horrible without a center...
I'm still looking to try another reciever. And plug a M22 into the center instead of the vp150.
So it looks like good quality audio with no background noise really shows the harshness of voices during conversation. I must say I'm frustrated at this point,
.
JB, enough strands can simply be trimmed off of the stripped end so that it'll fit. The thickness of the last 1/2" doesn't change the overall resistance of the wire significantly.
Is it possible that you just need some junk in your room?
Do you have bare walls and hardwood in that room, or have you got bookshelves and carpet and other things to break up the reflections?
My sound improved after I put a microwave on bench off to the side where there was formerly just a big empty wall.
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This latest idea of the source just made me realize I need to try the M60s with the DVD player. I will report later.....
FWIW, I did find the mids/uppers a little more distinct with the digital off the dvd player compared to the analog cd player, but not enough to come close to the M22 using analog.
I did hear more sibilance on the digital feed when using the M22s alone.
Are you saying I need to purchase M80's, ?
No, the M80s are just as bad as the M22 for upper end, the M82 combo is what you are looking for , which means you need M60s in parallel with the M22s. The 60s take any edge off the M22s. 
I am getting to like this combo more and more. Switch off the M22s when a poor cd is in the player and switch them back on for good ones. Movies are having more richness and fuller sound as well!
Please forgive me, I'm trying my best to follow along.
Is it *possible* that the XBox as the source is the problem for DVD's? Is there a chance you can try your setup with another (stand-alone) DVD player and see if the results are different?
Are there adjustable output settings on an XBox? Seems like you're only having trouble with DVD's, so perhaps it is the DVD player rather than the speakers or the receiver.
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Is it possible that you just need some junk in your room?
Do you have bare walls and hardwood in that room, or have you got bookshelves and carpet and other things to break up the reflections?
My sound improved after I put a microwave on bench off to the side where there was formerly just a big empty wall.
Probably. I have hardwoods and fairly bare walls. Small room.
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Please forgive me, I'm trying my best to follow along.
Is it *possible* that the XBox as the source is the problem for DVD's? Is there a chance you can try your setup with another (stand-alone) DVD player and see if the results are different?
Are there adjustable output settings on an XBox? Seems like you're only having trouble with DVD's, so perhaps it is the DVD player rather than the speakers or the receiver.
Step ahead of you. I'm going to borrow a PS3 to test some DVD's and Blu-Rays next week.
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JBS,
you might be more happy with a couple of M2s wired in parallel, or a couple of M22 centre channels. (vertically orientated of course).
just a suggestion.
Ok Hutzal. I switched the Right M22 with the Center Channel. And the results are........
Less harshness. But exaggerated S's are still there. Most evident from the Center channel. I'm assuming it was only less because the fact I was down 1 tweeter and driver.
I can get my hands on a Onkyo TX-SR705 to borrow for some testing. How would this compare to my H/K 635?
I think it would be comparable enough for you to tell if the receiver is the problem.
If its not better with the PS3 nor Onkyo, and as your room is quite reflective, I will suggest that you will need some wall/floor treatments, which isn't a bad idea regardless of the outcome.
Jason, you saw and heard how bright my room was. Did you notice any of the symptoms that bsengineer is reporting?
But his room has hardwood floors and yours doesn't. The reflections off jardwood can be pretty severe.
I didn't notice the hardwood. Yes, agreed.
Ok. I have aqcuired an Onkyo TX-SR705. My results are as follows.
Results with the 705:
1.) Using this Re-EQ feature helps the issue with exaggerated "S"'s
2.) As always cranking down the treble helps as well
3.) Lowing the center channel output helps the issue as well
4.) Standing to the left of the VP150 takes away the harshness of the "S"'s
So essentially there was very similar results between the H/K 635 and Onkyo 705. But the 705 has more features to handle the issue. I must say I really like the feature set in the Onkyo.
It seems atleast for the harshness that it is coming from the center channel.
The exaggerated "S" can sometimes be very distracting and harsh to the ears. To the point where I don't understand what people are saying.
As per Hutzal's suggestion I tried the M22 and it was better but was still there.
Now as far as hardwood floors etc. I'm not sure this would help with the center channel because it's aimed at the listening position. I have tried pointing it above or below but it puts to much of a reflection on the voices.
What are my options?
There must be a problem with the 150 if it is that sibilant. I suggest you contact Axiom.
"4.) Standing to the left of the VP150 takes away the harshness of the "S"'s"There must be a problem with the 150 if it is that sibilant. I suggest you contact Axiom.
Ya think?
...but JBS says the problem is still there with the M22.
There must be a problem with the 150 if it is that sibilant. I suggest you contact Axiom.
...but JBS says the problem is still there with the M22. Maybe it's better with the M22 because of 1 less tweeter? Just throwin' ideas out...
JBS,
are you still using the xbox as your source? Have you tried other sources?
JBS,
are you still using the xbox as your source? Have you tried other sources?
Still have the problem with my HDTV DVR over Optical.
...but JBS says the problem is still there with the M22.
There must be a problem with the 150 if it is that sibilant. I suggest you contact Axiom.
...but JBS says the problem is still there with the M22. Maybe it's better with the M22 because of 1 less tweeter? Just throwin' ideas out...
I just tried a phantom center. And cranked the M22's way up. Very harsh at loud levels.
Not trying to be a smartass... but have you ever been checked for a formerly torn eardrum?
What you're describing often happens to divers and audio engineers who have ruptured an eardrum.
Just suggesting all possibilities.
Bren R.
Not trying to be a smartass... but have you ever been checked for a formerly torn eardrum?
What you're describing often happens to divers and audio engineers who have ruptured an eardrum.
Just suggesting all possibilities.
Bren R.
Nope. But I've never had an issue with hearing, always perfect scores!
I guess having the wife suffer through a testing session wouldn't hurt.
"4.) Standing to the left of the VP150 takes away the harshness of the "S"'s"There must be a problem with the 150 if it is that sibilant. I suggest you contact Axiom.
Ya think?
The harshness goes away moving to the left. The exaggrated "S" still exists. Same results with M22 except I would have to give it more volume.
What if you move to the right?
What if you move to the right?
Same results.
I don't know how far to the left or right you've moved. Do you hear the harshness 25 degrees off centre and 50 degrees off centre?
I don't know how far to the left or right you've moved. Do you hear the harshness 25 degrees off centre and 50 degrees off centre?
I'm approx about 9-10 feet back. and I will move approx 4 feet to the left. So around that area and further (left and right) the harshness is gone.
That means you can't handle the accuracy of the tweeters. When you move off axis, the response attenuates. Get some resistors from Axiom.
That means you can't handle the accuracy of the tweeters. When you move off axis, the response attenuates. Get some resistors from Axiom.
Interesting.
I can understand the basics of a resistor. How exactly will it effect the tweeter though? And how are they applied to the speaker? Does Axiom provide these upon request or?
Apparently Axiom does supply upon request. I am not sure how exactly they are terminated. You may have to solder them on. The resistor will decrease the power fed to the tweeter and make the tweeter sound "softer". It may be acceptable to you or it might not but it doesn't hurt to try.
Apparently Axiom does supply upon request. I am not sure how exactly they are terminated. You may have to solder them on. The resistor will decrease the power fed to the tweeter and make the tweeter sound "softer". It may be acceptable to you or it might not but it doesn't hurt to try.
Let me throw this out there. Is it possible for the drivers to give out this harshnees?
I very much doubt it. You can always disconnect the tweeters to assure yourself. I don't know how easy it is to do that. I imagine they use quick disconnect or screw on terminals.
I very much doubt it. You can always disconnect the tweeters to assure yourself. I don't know how easy it is to do that. I imagine they use quick disconnect or screw on terminals.
Good point. I may try this tomorrow night.
I very much doubt it. You can always disconnect the tweeters to assure yourself. I don't know how easy it is to do that. I imagine they use quick disconnect or screw on terminals.
harshness = gone
Disconnected the tweeters on the center. Of course losing all the highs but no harshness.
Congratulations. How were the tweeters connected? So you'll get yourself a couple of resistors then?
Congratulations. How were the tweeters connected? So you'll get yourself a couple of resistors then?
They were "quick" disconnects. A couple connections not really quick and would rather refer to them as stubburn disconnects.
I'm going to get ahold of Axiom and see if I can get some resistors. If this fixes my issue I see M80's in my future!
Try to get Axiom to terminate the resistors for you so that you can just slip them on to the tweeter and the wires.
Let us know how it sounds when you're done.
Try to get Axiom to terminate the resistors for you so that you can just slip them on to the tweeter and the wires.
Let us know how it sounds when you're done.
Unfortunate news. Per Axiom they do not advocate using resistors as it would alter the sound, etc. They have suggested working with the placement of the center. Damn.
that is REALLY strange!! I would suggest pming Alan to ask him about this, I have heard in the past that Axiom has supplied resistors to other owners...
There were also threads on this subject that went into the resistor values and how to connect them. There were two resistor options as I recall. I believe the time frame was around late '04 to mid "05.
Used to be that the search function would find what you need. Haven't tried it with the new forum format yet.
Another thought would be to go back to the previously discussed alternative speaker option. The M3 for center would most likely be your best bet. I mean; after all, the VPs are offered with the M3s, so why not an M3 with M22s?
I have had M3s with M22s, although the differences are minor, the M3s less honest qualities (and the 6.5" woofer) do not add to a seamless soundstage with the M22s. And since it is the tweeters that are causing the problems, I do not think an M3 would solve it.
Just my opinion tho...after having M3 centres with M22 mains, I ended up ordering M2 centres and they match a whole lot better than M3s...
I have had M3s with M22s, although the differences are minor, the M3s less honest qualities (and the 6.5" woofer) do not add to a seamless soundstage with the M22s. And since it is the tweeters that are causing the problems, I do not think an M3 would solve it.
Just my opinion tho...after having M3 centres with M22 mains, I ended up ordering M2 centres and they match a whole lot better than M3s...
If I can get this harshness under control I will be upgrading from the M22's to the M80's using the tradeup program. I would assume the 150 would mesh better with M80's.
I really think with your sensitivity to harshness from the VP150, I would really recommend auditioning the M80s first...the M60s have 1 less tweeter and may be better suited to your listening preferences.
I really think with your sensitivity to harshness from the VP150, I would really recommend auditioning the M80s first...the M60s have 1 less tweeter and may be better suited to your listening preferences.
I was thinking that as well. Disconnecting one of the tweeters in an M80 won't work?
I have had M3s with M22s, although the differences are minor, the M3s less honest qualities (and the 6.5" woofer) do not add to a seamless soundstage with the M22s. And since it is the tweeters that are causing the problems, I do not think an M3 would solve it.
Just my opinion tho...after having M3 centres with M22 mains, I ended up ordering M2 centres and they match a whole lot better than M3s...
If I can get this harshness under control I will be upgrading from the M22's to the M80's using the tradeup program. I would assume the 150 would mesh better with M80's.
It is my feeling that the M60 would suit you much better, as the highs are nowhere near as forward and the M80s. I feel the VP150 actually matches better to the M60s as well. The VP100 plays a little more cleanly(bright) than the 150 so I would say it would match the M22/M80 unless in a medium to big room and the volume is high, which you seem to like.
M60 and VP150 is what you should be going for, IMO.
I was around during the prior resistor discussions that took place here. I also used the resistors for a little while on my M22s way back when. Axiom used to provide them willingly upon request. That said, I have not used the resistors on my M22s for several years.
Basically, around the time I requested them, the anti-Axiom rhetoric on different boards was at its peak. And I kind of got caught up in the hype of people calling Axioms bright, etc. So I asked for the resistors, used them for awhile, and while I still enjoyed the Axioms, I felt a little of the magic was missing for me. So I took the resistors off, put them in a drawer, and haven't thought about them since.
But anyway, as to the current problem, I just don't think there is any magic answer. Sure, the resistors may be a partial solution, but maybe Axioms are just not the best speaker for jbsengineer. I'll see if I can find my resistors so you have some idea at least what type they were. And they did come ready to attach to the tweeter, which was a very simple process. Good luck.
I've been racking my cranium about this for a few minutes now, and I can't honestly recall if this problem existed with M3s, M40s or M50s. It seems to me that although the resistors went into the tweeter circuit, it was only with speakers that used the 5.25" drivers.
That although all speakers used/use the same tweeters, the M3-M50 were not included in the problem.
JBS,
I too vote for the M60s but instead of the 150, I suggest M2s based on what Robb and others have been telling us. The 150 will continue to sound harsh to you regardless of your fronts.
He finds the M22 too harsh as well, so M2s included? Maybe M3 with M60 would work or (gasp) M50s and M3s. maybe auditions are in order.
Robb we need to listen to M3 and M60.....
Yeah, Jason. I think you're right.
I would love to hear some M50s...they do intrigue be quite a bit...
Currently, where I have my studio monitors placed, I would say they are about 8-10 inches from the back wall...and pretty close to the corners...and they have ANNOYED the heck outa me when I am recording bass because of that damn hump!
I subbed out the M3s for M22s last week just to see what it sounded like...MAAAAANNN...I NEED M22s in my studio!! I am saving up for some black custom ones...we'll see what happens...
I still stand by my comment that M3s would not help his situation...I don't think it has anything to do with the woofers, only the tweeters. I just think the "axiom" sound from the tweeters is to JBS' preference...we shall see!!!
I think JBS should order all the tower speakers and decide in his own room
The tweeter's response is far more subdued in the M3 than the 150.
The tweeter's response is far more subdued in the M3 than the 150.
well that is something that I did not know...where is this info? just from the curve? If this is the case, then M50's and M60's are something he would probably like...
The tweeter's response is far more subdued in the M3 than the 150.
Mojo,
Interesting. I'm definetly willing to try them if this is the case. How do you know this?
Take a look at the frequency response graphs of the 150 vs. the M3 on the products page. There's a 6 to 7 dB difference.
The tweeter's response is far more subdued in the M3 than the 150.
well that is something that I did not know...where is this info? just from the curve? If this is the case, then M50's and M60's are something he would probably like...
Hutzal,
Have you tried M3's as centers instead of the M2's?
I was around during the prior resistor discussions that took place here. I also used the resistors for a little while on my M22s way back when. Axiom used to provide them willingly upon request. That said, I have not used the resistors on my M22s for several years.
Basically, around the time I requested them, the anti-Axiom rhetoric on different boards was at its peak. And I kind of got caught up in the hype of people calling Axioms bright, etc. So I asked for the resistors, used them for awhile, and while I still enjoyed the Axioms, I felt a little of the magic was missing for me. So I took the resistors off, put them in a drawer, and haven't thought about them since.
But anyway, as to the current problem, I just don't think there is any magic answer. Sure, the resistors may be a partial solution, but maybe Axioms are just not the best speaker for jbsengineer. I'll see if I can find my resistors so you have some idea at least what type they were. And they did come ready to attach to the tweeter, which was a very simple process. Good luck.
NO. Don't say that,
!! I love my Axioms. They are for me, or atleast I think so. I love every aspect about them! I may be a little too sensitive to the tweeters I guess... ,
jbs,
I originally ordered M3s for centres instead of the M2s. I found that I did not like their layed back qualities when compared to the M22s...I had one mounted way up really close to the ceiling, and it was exaggerating that 100hz to 150hz bass hump with some vocals...the M2s are much better in that regard.
When I had them upstairs and about 4 feet from walls, they sounded really great, no problems with them at all.
The M2s are more forward than the M3s, its a quality that I much prefer, however, the M3s may work well in your situation.
I like the sound of my M3 centers. One above and one below my SXRD.
I like the sound of my M3 centers. One above and one below my SXRD.
Have you compared them to a VP150 or M22 before?
I like the sound of my M3 centers. One above and one below my SXRD.
Have you compared them to a VP150 or M22 before?
I had a VP150 before my M3s and was able to compare the sound before I shipped back the VP150.
You have to realize that I like the sound of the M3s. I have 3 pair!
But anyway, as to the current problem, I just don't think there is any magic answer. Sure, the resistors may be a partial solution, but maybe Axioms are just not the best speaker for jbsengineer. Good luck.
Out of the 140 or so (thus far) very helpful replies to this persons obvious speaker troubles this is probably the single best result for him/her at the moment. Every probable solution has been exhausted by numerous knowledgeable members, including the removal of tweeters, adding resistors and so forth?
Maybe it's time to raise the white flag.
Well, there are other solutions too. Like 0.1mH inductors that he could put on the tweeters. I'm sure someone from Axiom would like to beat me with a stick right about now :-).
I like the sound of my M3 centers. One above and one below my SXRD.
Have you compared them to a VP150 or M22 before?
I had a VP150 before my M3s and was able to compare the sound before I shipped back the VP150.
You have to realize that I like the sound of the M3s. I have 3 pair!
Hey; I do too!
....well; the number of drivers also adds up to twelve!!
Yup; the M3 for center duties is a real winner! Even more fun crossed at 60!
I like the sound of my M3 centers. One above and one below my SXRD.
Have you compared them to a VP150 or M22 before?
I had a VP150 before my M3s and was able to compare the sound before I shipped back the VP150.
You have to realize that I like the sound of the M3s. I have 3 pair!
I see you have M80s as well, quite the mix of different sonic signatures. Not so sure I would like it, (I sent back V1 QS4s becuase the tweeters were different and sounded a little off) but obviously you do and thats all that matters.
Care to elaborate on the M80 M3 center pairing?
I haven't heard a VP100 or 150 with my M50s, but I've heard from lots of folks who have them with their M3s or M50s and they all say they sound just fine. Axiom even sells them that way in their packages of course.
I guess the 5.25s and 6.5s go quite well together. And of course they all use the same tweeters.
But the tweeters are crossed and equalized differently.
Sure; but they've been sellin' 'em that way for years and nobody seems to be complainin"!
I am sure they sound very nice.
You said they all use the same tweeters as if to imply that they all have the same tweeter response. The tweeter response however depends not only on the tweeter itself but also the cross-over frequency and the subsequent equalization.
I am sure they sound very nice.
You said they all use the same tweeters as if to imply that they all have the same tweeter response. The tweeter response however depends not only on the tweeter itself but also the cross-over frequency and the subsequent equalization.
Nope; only mentioned the tweeter cause you mentioned it yourself when you stated you returned your old QS4s.
Naw; I'm not the one who says they sound good together, cause I've never heard them. But Axiom felt that using the same tweeter throughout the entire audiophile line was important enough to remove the old hybrid tweet. But yup; how the tweeters fit each box and the mids is important for sure.
I'd really like to see a white paper with waterfall plots for all these speakers. That would be jolly fun!
I think you're confusing me with someone else. I never had QS4s.
That would be me that returned the QS4s, that hybrid tweeter was just off enough for me to tell and it bugged me alot.
Uh...yeah, that would be it....oops, uh....
My bad.
re: tweeter vs woofer -- the difference between M3/40/50 and 2/22/60/80 is mostly in the 4-5 KHz range, which "officially" is tweeter territory but in reality is in the crossover region where both drivers are contributing. Axiom folks have posted a couple of times that the difference is primarily caused by lower off-axis output from the woofer at the top end of its frequency range, ie the 6.5" naturally rolls off more sharply and/or at a lower frequency than the 5.5" woofer.
A resistor does not seem like an ideal solution for what is really a response bump (or, more precisely, lack of a response dip). I'm rusty on crossover design but at first glance a series capacitor might be a better "hack" than a series resistor, although of course there would be additional phase changes in the crossover region and the effects of those are always hard to predict.
Has anyone with M2/M22/M60/M80 speakers had access to a good parametric EQ and taken down the 4-5 KHz range a couple of dB to see if that has the same effect as switching to M3/M40/M50 ?