Ok there is one thing that I just don't understand... how is biwiring any better? Sure you can show off your big expensive bi-wired cables, but sonically is there a difference. The same goes for bi-amplifing, the signal before if gets to the speaker is all the same, no matter how many amplifiers you have connected to your pair... right?
In reply to:
how is biwiring any better?
It's not. There is SOME potential for a better signal with bi-amping, possibly in theory. There is absolutley no gain in bi-wiring.
How would you gain from bi-amping? It would appear you are exchanging possible problems resulting from a more complex signal with more likely problems resulting from additional connections and signal processing!
I agree, but enough people claim to hear a difference that I won't dismiss it out of hand. I haven't had a chance to do any testing on it myself. Either way, it certainly wouldn't be enough for me to waste my money on but audiophiles are strange creatures.
Every article I've dug up on the matter has offered no real justification for why bi-amping might provide any improvement. Most seem to hinge on the use of a crossover to split the amplifiers. One amplifies the high signals and one amplifies the low signals, thereby freeing each to work more effectively on their individual frequency spectrum.
All of my clock and data signal management expertise is focused on frequencies MUCH higher than home audio (1-50GHz...). In that realm, the suggestion of bi-amping would be absurd for the very reasons you mention. However, I haven't really measured the resultant skew from using two amplifiers in order to determine whether or not it would cause a problem. I know it would in my world, but I can't really speak to home audio in this regard.
I thought bi-wiring didn't matter but I was wrong. For some reason after I bi-wired my setup I heard more detail and separation in my music. I even did a blind test. I went up to my friend B&W speakers who forgot to remove those clips behind his post. I did not mention anything to him and just started to take it off. After I had it off he was like saying what the hell I did. His speakers sound definitely much better and clearer. He has been using those set of speakers for 6 years bi-wired but no one told him he was supposed to take out the clips which attached his low and highs.
Most HIFI stores would lend you a good set of bi-wireable speaker cables. Use your ears as a judge.
Speaker wires also does make a difference (unlike what most people here believe). Sure is you got regular zip vs Moster cables...you won't know the difference......try it against Kimbers or QED...you'll notice something (and its not just a lighter pocket).
Assuming I buy 45 ft kimber cables at $9 a foot for my QS8 for rear surround, this means that I am paying $405 (plus shipping?) to connect my $235 speaker or a total of $640 per speaker.
At these prices, I better hear substantial sonic improvement. Would it not be wiser to buy $540 speaker and connect it with $100 worth of cables and definitely hear substantial sonic improvement? How about $600 speaker and $40 cable (about $0.89 a foot)?
Biwiring is a myth.
In the terms of scientific physics it doesn't make sense.
In proper tests, subjects did not discern b/w biwired and non-biwired setups.
In regards to the wires themselves, copper is copper is copper, period. If you can magically change copper to another substance that moves electrons better than other copper wire simply by wrapping it in various materials, then you must be god.
There is more than just 'opinion' in these statements. There is scientific fact.
But hey, the day people actually listen to science is the day the earth is near apocalypse.
old Alan post
old Alan post 2
JohnK old post
I found an excellent article about bi-wiring, has both pro's and con's about it.
http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
It would be wiser to spend all your money on the speakers and buy your wire by the foot to your needs from Home Depot or Radio Shack. The hype behind speaker cable is nothing more than just that.
You miss my point. I personally have heard a difference. I had a chance to take home wires more expensive than your lamp cords. I heard a difference. I didnt mind shelling out $200 CDN for cable my front mains. I can afford it. If you read articles that said there was no difference and that good enough for you then its good enough for you. And no I would not run Kimbers for my rears so surround because I don't care if I get more definition on my rears or not. My standard 12 gauge is good enough. But I enjoy my stereo music moreso now that I have those Kimber up front. As I said in my earlier email use your ears and my ears told me it sounds better.
Enjoy your budget speakers. Enjoy your lamp cords.
For those of you who claims biwiring is a myth, please, go buy yourself an extra run of speaker cables, try it, and then tell us all if it made a difference. I can't imagine an extra run of 12ga HD cable costing that much. I personally have a 250ft spool of these cables and I have tried different combinations (single wire, biwire, doubling runs, etc), and they all sounded different.
For those of you who claims expensive/exotic speaker wires are snake oil, please, go listen to a few different wires, and then tell us if there is a difference (though not necessarily for the better). They MAY NOT be worth the money, but I think the issue on hand here is whether or not there's a difference.
Naysayers, sometimes, can be even less scientific than the yaysayers (?! Is that even a word
)
That different wires can produce a slightly different sound has never been disputed. However, every single double blind experiment I've ever read has indicated that, while the experts were able to identify differences in various cables, NONE were ever able to consistently state that one cable SOUNDED BETTER than any other.
Saturn,
I'd be curious to know by what means you were able to conclude the cables sounded better. Did you take the scientific approach and involve another person to help you construct a viable doube blind test or did you plug in the cables you spent $200 on and convince yourself that you hadn't just wasted $200?
I've never known anyone, myself included, to reliably pass expensive speaker cables through a double-blind.
Regards,
Semi
Soon we'll need 5000 watts just to power 0 guage welding cable speaker wires...lol. But seriously, I love this idea for Do-It-Yourself speaker wires
http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
I've seen that before. That guy has WAY more patience than I.
So Chess...I'm curious now, do you have Home Depot in Canada?
In reply to:
However, every single double blind experiment I've ever read has indicated that, while the experts were able to identify differences in various cables, NONE were ever able to consistently state that one cable SOUNDED BETTER than any other.
Semi On, I think you are acknowledging my point. My point wasn't any particular (brand of) cable is better; it was that they each sounded different, and because there was a difference, each person, along with the associated equipment, will have a particular perference.
Certain individuals on this board that participated in this thread do NOT acknowledge there is a difference ("myth", "no gain", etc).
I'm all for using cheap cables -- I use them myself; but I won't so readily dismiss other people's "findings" as just opinion (anybody remember the person that made Cat 5 based speaker cables and upgraded to WBT connectors? flamed, crashed and burned in a matter of days).
Man I love this, this forum is quickly turning into AA and AR
I should bi wire my entire system with water cooled cables. That way, after blowing all my money, I'll want it to sound better so badly, that it WILL sound better, because I believe it does......
Semi
I did the Double blind test only with my friends system. I never even mentioned anything to him. He noticed a difference. What the diffenrece is I am not sure. But he liked it more after the fact.
With my system I did replace the cable back and forth many times. Also got the fiancee to listen to the differences if any and she herself noticed a difference. Is the difference better. Now thats hard to quantify. At the very first time when I changed it the highs sounded more shrill or more defined to the point I thought I was going to get sick. Why I felt that way. I do not know but thats how it made me feel. After a couple of days either the cable adjusted or I got used to the sound. I switch back to the old cable and I noticed how the old cable sounded more muted or flat in the highs. I used the same music..same test CD.
As I noted in an earlier test... the canadian tire lamp cord vs 12 gauge oxygen free vs Monster XP vs Monster MCX bi wire cable I DID NOT NOTICE any difference between any at all. But with Kimber or QED or Transparent I did notice a difference. Is it a difference that is worth to the listener ... that up to the individual. Is the difference BETTER? Again that is left to the individual. My Monitor Audio Silver S6 speakers are very revealing speakers specially with the highs and mids. I also tried the Kimbers with the M22Ti and also noticed only a slight change but it was noticeable.
I have actually tried this rather than some individuals who say that there are no difference and based their opinion on other individuals written reports and not their own ears.
If all this cable fluff did not work why is there an industry that many people buy into. Why don't the local HIFI shop use Radio Shack lamp cord. Why doesn't www.soundstage.com who has given many reviews to all the product lines of Axiom use RadioSahck lampcord. Places like those use Kimber, QED, Transparent, DH Labs, Nirvana.
Next time you go to your local HIFI shop, ask them why they don't use standard 12 gaugespeaker wire on there Mark Levinsons, Krells, Watt Puppy's, Brystons, Exposures, Blue Circle, Naim, Rega, Classe, Arcam, Meridian systems, TAG McLaren.
OSG,
You've made the biggest error in all of science.
You made a conclusion based on absolutely zero data.
Your inferred conclusion is that we 'naysayers' apparently believe there is no difference in sound with different cables but you based this on your assumption that none of us have even tried different (or more expensive or more elaborate or biwirable) cable when in fact many of us have.
If you had asked some people here first you would have had the knowledge that we are not spouting untested opinion.
I have heard other cable brands (at least 2 beyond what most ppl term generic) and i have biwired my system before. Was there a sound difference?
None that i could detect. My friend thought he heard a difference until i switched the cables a couple more times and all of a sudden he was picking out the cables at near a 50:50 split. He couldn't tell either. HOWEVER, our test was BIASED as are most home 'tests' that people do to attempt to distinguish sound differences.
Does it come down to each individual having different hearing? Although its true some people hear better than others, the majority of people all fall into a population average. My friend and I certainly form a small sample of two but so far the results are consistent.
Is it possible that all these music audiophiles just have more amazing ears than the rest of the human population?
Highly unlikely. That would make for alot of 'special' people and hence the average should then be shifted higher in compensation.
What is likely then?
That these 'audiophiles' are actually deceiving themselves into hearing differences because such is the way of human nature. Ego alone makes one person believe they can do something better than the next guy such as hear finite electronic differences between two cables of the same gauge and same conductive material. Especially for the male sex, you throw in the 'competition' factor and there is no end to what one person can apparently hear/do better than the next guy.
So how do you remove the human emotion as a variable?
One method, and a pretty decent one at that, is through blind tests run by an uninterested third party under controlled conditions.
I read sometime several months ago about a blind test at a home electronics expo where people such as the 'yaysayers' to biwiring were invited to test their apparent ability to hear a difference between cable types using a sound system and a closed sound booth (a relatively unbiased method assuming the ppl running the booth did not have an alternative motive). Formal studies have also been done and you can find info in scientific journals and perhaps some online reprints.
The results of such tests?
The yaysayers became enlightened first hand that they could not tell any differences between cable types as they picked out the normal and biwired cable sets approximately 50:50 regardless of which cable was being used. This is to say, 50% of the time they would pick out the biwired cable when regular cables were used and vice versa.
"Wow" they would say. "Those 12 cent a foot regular cables were up against 5 dollar a foot biwired cables and i couldn't tell the difference?"
"That's correct." said the scientist.
Have i made my point clear now?
The science i am referring to is not fiction. It can be found, read and understood by most any man/woman. If you EVER get the opportunity to enter a blind test and try this out for yourself, then perhaps finally YOU will be the one to 'see the light' so to speak. But until you move your 'tests' out of your home and into the lab, i have very little faith in the subjective data you provide to the discussion. Unless of course you can provide me with some valid data to the contrary. The scientific mind should not be a closed mind but definitely a scrutinzing one.
All that aside, i do like the look of some of the expensive cables. They would fit my room decor much better than the light grey coated ones i have now.
Ya, we've got a Home Depot here and there.
But they've got crap selection for speaker wire.
Some really stiff 12ga stuff that cost $1.50 a foot and i would need pliers to bend.
I went to a local audio electronics friend who sells audio (as opposed to industrial) grade cable. It was nice and flexible, 50 cents a foot. But the light grey sheath just isn't cutting it with my nice Boston Cherry Axioms.
Saturn,
have you heard of a thing called advertising?
The almighty dollar is what most motivates the cable 'snake oils' of the day, what drives the sales of expensive cables and what prompts people into believing they can tell the differences even if others cannot.
Don't fool yourself.
It still comes down to human perception and emotions as stimulated by the 'hype' of advertising.
As for going to hifi audio shops, yes, MANY of them do sell expensive cable, and if you actually get to know some of these people personally, especially the ones that repair the equipment for a living, many of them also do NOT use anything more than regular 12ga generic stuff for their home systems. Just because they sell it, doesn't mean they use it.
In reply to:
Semi On, I think you are acknowledging my point. My point wasn't any particular (brand of) cable is better; it was that they each sounded different, and because there was a difference, each person, along with the associated equipment, will have a particular perference.
Not exactly. Each person wasn't consistent on their own. On one pass, they'd think one particular brand of expensive wire sounded better, on another they'd pick a different brand. Often times, they picked the generic wire. None were able to consistently prefer the same wire.
This is a different point entirely.
> > how is biwiring any better?
>
> It's not. There is SOME potential for a better signal
> with bi-amping, possibly in theory. There is absolutley
> no gain in bi-wiring.
Actually if you are using 16gu wire, biwiring actually could help because it splits the load. If you are using 14gu, or even better 12gu you shouldn't notice any difference.
Michael
In reply to:
Actually if you are using 16gu wire, biwiring actually could help because it splits the load. If you are using 14gu, or even better 12gu you shouldn't notice any difference.
That doesn't make biwiring better. If you use two cables, one a biwire set, that both equal out to 16ga, you wouldn't have any major improvement.
Wouldn't the size and length of wire change it's resistance? And could that somehow effect the sound quality someway? Higher resistance is used within the crossover to filter certain frequencies. I think the best way to go is fiber optic cable and the signal would be totally pure and unaltered. As far as bi-wiring/amping goes...lets get Ian to bi-wire some M-60's and get a frequency response and waterfall measurements and we'll know scientifically how it effects them.
Chesseroo said,
"Is it possible that all these music audiophiles just have more amazing ears than the rest of the human population?"
Much like a wine tester may possess extraordinary olfactory senses, so do some audiophiles (I stress a very small number). Much like your average wine tester and average audiophile there is a certain amount of training which provides a level of acuity. Level of acuity is not to be confused with amazing hearing. I still recall being trained to recognize a "C" note. A magical moment indeed. The "C" note was always there but it took training to recognize it. I do not poses amazing hearing nor am I a good musician. But you begin to notice subtle differences with training and critical listening. The point is listening critically to music and audio gear is a combination of hearing and training to hear.
My two cents. I have yet to notice any "improved" sound from exotic cables but I'm always available for listening tests!
On bi-wiring/bi-amping. Bi-wiring seems a waste of cable to me for all the reasons you've probably seen before. I see the dble binding posts as a mechanism by which one can add a particularly good tube amp for the mids and highs while using the solid state amp for the low end. All part of the fun of playing with our gear.
You also have to trust your instincts and ignore the price tag. Are Wilson Watt Puppy's worth $17,000US? Not to my ears! not by a long shot.... but I'd sure love to own a pair of Waveform Mach 17's.
Cheers,
Dan
Chesseroo:
Let's just say I disagree with you on biwiring/wiring, but I do agree with "The scientific mind should not be a closed mind but definitely a scrutinzing one".
Cu is Cu is Cu, but I am open to the fact certain twists, thickness, directions, fancy-things-like-silver-wrapped-copper that makes you go WTF?!, well maybe (just MAYBE) sometimes it MAY make the sound better.
My expensive cable that fits my industrial style basement decor is 2 runs of braided HD 12ga Cu cable in black polyester sleeves. NO, they are not the best sounding cables I have heard; they are just what I have on last, and I'm just too lazy to be arsed to make something else
Total cost for a 8 feet pair - $40. (So no, I'm not a yaysayer, just not a naysayer!)
Now, if we could now start on biamping
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Cu is Cu is Cu, but I am open to the fact certain twists, thickness, directions, fancy-things-like-silver-wrapped-copper that makes you go WTF?!, well maybe (just MAYBE) sometimes it MAY make the sound better.
THIS is where I find all of this silly. I'm an electical engineer by education and current position is in VERY high frequency networking and telecomm semiconductors. WE have to worry about noise in wires and engineer our test boards with very expensive SMA connectors (still cheap compared to the idiocy I see in the audiophile world at about $8 a pair) and expensive, precisely measured cables to connect our very delicately crafted evaluation board to said connectors and our $250k Tektronix Oscilloscope. Our devices are also operating in the 5-50GHz range.
ONLY there does the skew and jitter of a cable and connector matter. ONLY there will you have differences that are measurably large enough to cause an eye diagram to lose value. From an EE standpoint, at frequencies in the range of audible sound, the amount of jitter and skew present in a cable does not change enough by cable to actually add any value to one cable over another.
Regards,
Semi
DanTana,
The size and length would add some resistance, but it's so tiny as to be totally insignificant compared to the load.
A good point and well thought through.
I bet that one took you about an hour to write with 2 kids on your lap eh?
I like the biamping idea. I had never thought about that before. You got any tube amps we can play with?
As for the Waveforms, gimme the Watt Puppys. I could use the spare cash...once i sold them.
Semi, just what do they have you doing over at Ars?!!
Making the next gen quantum bombs?!!
Ars is a hobby. I work at ON Semiconductor (hence the nick).