Gday all. I've been reading through this forum for months and I am the proud new owner of a pair of m80s v3s, pair of Qs8 v3s and have a vp180 coming shortly (just got the confirmation from Noreen about shipping as I was writing this !!! Woo Hoo!). I am extactic with the sound quality so far paired with an Onkyo TX-NR5007. Im certainly not a noob when it comes to quality sound as this is my 5th home theater setup and I have had my share of high end cans with many different amps and DACs.

I am not an expert at bass management however and I will be forking over major cash to get the best LFE my $2500 can buy. Not being able to afford two ep800s, I was hoping you guys could help me out in making the best decision for my setup. The room is not done yet but will be a dedicated home theater room just big enough to properly fit my 120inch screen for my Epson u8500. I am more concerned about getting bass you can FEEL, meaning under 20hz. I am thinking dimensions somewhere in the range of 15'x9' with 9' ceilings give or take. I tried to look through the forum but did not find this topic in any threads... I apologize if my question has been covered. Peace

Btw, also picking up another pair of Qs8s

If you're looking for depth, go with the single EP800. Not that that the EP500s won't supply that, but the 800 will supply more.

Congrats, btw.

Thanks! Im super stoked with my setup. There is a clarity I thought I could only get with my Grado RS1's or Akg 702 headphones...

That is pretty much what I was thinking Re the ep800.. Going with one and really concentrating on the ideal room placement.

How big is your room? Not much LFE content out there under 25hz, so the 800's lower reach potential may not be as useful as a second sub.

I suppose it depends on what movies one has in their collection, and also what "not much" means. It seems like in The Master List of DVD, HD-DVD & Blu-ray Movies with BASS Thread on AV Science Forum, there are plenty of single-digit bass moments listed.

If you really want to “FEEL” the bass under 20Hz and your seating allows it I would get a tactile transducer. For less than 1/4th the price of an EP800, about $390, you can get a Buttkicker LFE Kit, the one I have, which goes down to 5Hz with more authority than any retail subwoofer made AFAIK.

http://www.amazon.com/ButtKicker-BK-LFEK...cp_ob_e_title_0

IMO a tactile transducer is a far more effective/efficient way of getting really low bass than a subwoofer for the similar reasons that a subwoofer is more effective than most “full range” speakers at producing bass. Primarily it’s purpose built to produce very low frequencies and transfer them directly to you rather than transmit them to you through the air.

So if I were you I would consider an EP500 and a tactile transducer before dropping the $800 more a single EP800 would cost you.

Another advantage you have is dual subwoofer outputs like my Onkyo 3007. Makes integrating a Buttkicker with a sub a breeze.

Cheers,
Dean

I still look forward to getting one of those. One of these days.

me to, just trying to decide how many of the actual vibrating units I would need. I assume one for the stage for the rear seating, and maybe one to attach to the Dricor floating subflooring to rattle the front rows..

I think Dean's idea is really good.

What if it makes your chair rattle?

Not much, to me, would be less than 20% of all video media with sound produced and distributed via air, cable, satellite or physical storage means for the past 50 years.

That's a fair definition. Not much, to me, would mean that it would be difficult for me to find anything to watch with that low-bass content regularly, but I don't find it that difficult. Of course, I like re-watching stuff, and I buy more movies than most people.

Based on my experience one per row should be sufficient if like in your case each row of seats is sitting on a stage/riser or something other than just the floor. They do make smaller units that in my opinion would be appropriate for individual chair mounting. IMO a full size Buttkicker is overkill for a single chair. Hell if mounted directly to the frame one Buttkicker is overkill for a couch which is why it works fine just using the “foot” pad and resting a couch leg on it. I am just using a modified version of that by attaching mine to a 2x4 and resting the back legs of my three chairs on it. Works great.


I imagine if the BK is going to rattle your chair there’s a good chance the subwoofer would too. I’ve used both my BK and EP500 in two different rooms and never had the BK rattle my seats. OTOH my EP500 has always make something rattle that I subsequently had to locate and “lock down.”

I’ve read up on Buttkickers a lot and don’t remember ever running across anyone having a rattling problem. The only operation issue like that I’ve read about was someone who had it resonating (chair mode as opposed to room mode?) with their couch at a certain frequency. AFAIR the result was being to strong at that frequency and taking extra time for the vibration to dissipate (decay). I’ve also read of people having the dissipation problem if their mounting surface be it a riser or the seat, if mounted directly, is not very ridged.

In both case I’ve used a BK the frequency response and attack/decay are superior to the subwoofer. I imagine It’s because I only run the BK below 40Hz which is to long a wave to resonate with my seating.

Another potential problem with integrating a BK with a sub is setting the distance if you have a subwoofer with DSP. Unless you have a receiver with separate calibrated outputs then the sub and BK are going to be out of sync by how ever many feet the subs DSP chip adds.

One more potential issue is if the receiver applies a heavy correction to some part of the bass that the BK is also playing, that correction is also going to the BK which not suffering from a room mode will now be under powered. In this case a second calibrated subwoofer output could simply be run hot to make up for some of this which IMO would cause a big problem if your only running the BK over a small range like I am, 40Hz > 5Hz.

the back row is on a riser, I assume one unit would attach to the riser to rattle the back row. I just installed Dricor subflooring which is a floating subfloor to let the basement concrete breath and evaporate any moisture. It is a toungue and groove system, figured that the 2nd buttkicker could be installed to the flooring behind the front row. I've hear people say their sub performance dramatically improved once installing Dricor, versus over concrete and carpet.

Thanks for the tip on that. I'll have to look into it.

Thanks Dean! That's why you guys rock. Honest, practical opinions not based on bragging right and suggestions that save money to boot. I will definitely look into the butkicker and start with one ep500 for now.

Your welcome! Post back how things work out for you as it’s always best to get a variety of experiences.

BTW, cool screen name. Vanity was hot in that movie!

I forgot to add that even the physical distance to the subwoofer may cause it to be out of sync with the BK if you can’t set their distances separately.

You know I just re-read your initial post and want to make sure that when you say “the bass you can FEEL, meaning under 20hz” that we are really talking about the low bass rumble that shakes your furniture and not the midbass punch that you “feel” in your chest, the type of bass you would feel at a rave.

Now I’m curious… The AVS list of movies doesn’t make it easy to see what LFE each movie dips down to. Do you know of a list anywhere on the net that does note LFE content of movies? Maybe a spread sheet?

I suppose one should also define “low” LFE in which a person can actually “feel” it. I don’t know what that is.

But, in response to the OP’s original question and desires, the EP500, EP600 and EP800 all dip under 20hz. Actually, the specs on all three are not that fair off from one another. From my own personal experience, I prefer two EP500’s in my room over one EP600. I don’t miss the loss of LFE at all. I still feel LFE like crazy. Heck, I’ve been engrossed in a movie when my paint legs started shaking against my leg and it about scared the crap out of me thinking a mouse or some other creature was crawling up my pant leg.

Regarding the Buttkicers, and I'm being serious, do you guys think I could use one with my wheel chair? Do they need to be bolted onto something or can it just sit beside a chair etc.? Also, is it possible to move it easily? Another thing I thought of is that I could place it on the chair that is right beside where I sit, but does the effect resonate a couple feet or is it very localized? Are they unsightly (it wouldn't be hidden whatsoever)?

Lots of questions, but what do you guys think?

Thanks.

I think it would make the chair rattle.

That's entirely possible, especially since I have a bunch of stuff in the nap sack on my chair. I didn't know if I'd benefit from it if it was attached to the chair directly beside where I sit, if not attached to my wheel chair somehow.

I thought I might, based on an earlier post by Jason I think, where he mentioned placing one on the stage and a couple more in various places around his theater room.

Cam the Buttkicker need fairly direct contact to transmit it’s LFE. There are a couple options that might work for you.

The Buttkicker Gamer 2:

http://www.buttkickergear.com/product_p/bk-gr.htm

Which attaches directly to the chair. I’ve never tried one so I can’t vouch for how well it works. Nor can I tell you how easy it is to install and remove or how sturdy the clamp is.

Another option might be to get either a regular BK or one of these:

http://www.buttkickergear.com/ButtKicker_mini_LFE_p/bk-mini-lfe.htm

You could mount it to a flat piece of wood and just drive your chair onto the wood. Should work similar to the way the mounting plate for resting a couch leg on it does. Or like I have it with my BK mounted to a 2x4 with the back legs of the chairs resting on it. As long as the surface area touching the floor isn’t so large that it dissipates the vibration to much it should work. I’m sure the full Buttkicker could handle this but since I haven’t ever used the mini I can’t vouch for it’s power.

Cheers,
Dean

Thanks for those suggestions, Dean! I just skimmed over your message as it's bedtime for me, but I'll check the links out when I get back from camping.

Cam

A spreadsheet would be nice, but I don't know of a place that has that. I agree that it would be nice to see the list done a little differently, and updated more frequently. Better yet, let's all suggest to Blu-ray.com that they put the LFE info in the Audio portion of every review. I'm sure they'll go for that, right?

Can you describe the Dricor a bit for me? It sounds like just what I need but the manufacturer's web sight doesn't say a much except a 1 paragraph blurb and the picture looks basically like a square of foam with a pattern inlaid into it.

Cancel the foam part. In looking closer, it actually looks like it's just square panels of presswood.

Not to sound sarcastic, but where is the vapor barrier in that or do they consider the epoxy keeping the presswood together to be the vapor barrier?

They really should explain things better on their web sight for floor newbs like me.

Hi Murph - I've installed 2 entire basements with Dricore so am quite familiar with it. The underside of the chipboard is a rubber/plastic compound that allows air to flow through all of the channels underneath the subfloor. When installed tightly against each other via the tongue and groove, the plastic parts push up against each other creating the vapor barrier. I am also willing to guess that the sealant they put on top of/into the chipboard also helps add to the vapor barrier effect. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. I'll trade you for some grouting advice!

Thanks Dan,

Now it makes sense and you explained it much better than their web sight does.

No experience with butkickers but I almost wish the EP500 didn't work as well as it does (I said almost). Because it is so great at filling my 4000 cubic foot dedicated HT with LFE, I can't convince my wife to let me invest in a 2nd one.

Never heard the 600 hundred or 800 but I am sure two 500's will have your foundation crumbling within a few weeks. Remember to glue the china to the shelves in the china cabinet before you start!

Paul

AxiomJackson,

I can chime in here on the dual EP500's. I spent a year trying to get that "satisfied" low end rumble, depth and punch with 2 different subs.

After getting the dual EP500's I couldn't be happier. I currently have them stacked one on top of another and it's just incredible.

If you go with 2 EP500's, you won't regret it.

Dana

I bet someone will correct me, but if you have them stacked one on top of another, are not you just creating parallel wave forms, thus negating the entire purpose of having two subs with different wave patterns to reduce nulls?

Wouldn't the EP800 be the same thing, with 2 drivers, one above the other?

Yes, but it is still considered one sub.

I'm not sure if just that little bit of distance makes a difference, or not, which is why I said I may be corrected. I see the two drivers of either the EP800 or the stacked EP500s as a way to move more air, which is a good thing, but maybe not intended to replace the effects of two well placed subs.

This kinda goes along with what I've done with the M22s. Using bookshelf M22's with the on-wall M22's mounted vertically above sound better than either by themselves.

I think if you get the phase right, it would probably work just fine.

In fact it is easier to keep two drivers which are located on the same plane, and playing that same signal, from being out of phase, than two drivers located at different points in the room.

All I can tell you is what I hear & the 2 EP500's stacked on top of each other shakes the freaking room like I have never felt/heard..:)

And yes, I used to have them in separate front corners. I don't know if it's phase or what, but with them stacked in one corner, it's way better for "my room" of course...

Dana

Subs in the same location or near the same location by being stacked work like a single more powerful sub by combining their output waveforms. Separating the subs has the potential to balance the output more throughout the room if placed correctly, but less maximum output than 2 stacked subs in the main listening position.

Whether the goal is to maximize the combined sub SPL in one main listening spot or balance the sub output across multiple seats is up to the individual.

Stacking the subs has a similar effect as setting them next to each other. They are basically as near to each other as they can be but when they are stacked the frequency is distributed slightly along the height (z axis) of the room as opposed to an x or y axis.

Putting one sub in a corner will excite all the room nodes, good and bad. Adding another sub near the same corner will increase the output, I believe it is 6dB, and I assume those nodes will also be even more increased.

Depends on what your goal is, for me I want a smooth frequency response in all locations of the room, and still getting great output that is not boomy as a result of exciting the nodes. This can only be accomplished by placing the subs opposite of each other, either mid wall or opposite corners. Doing this helps cancel out the nodes, giving you a flatter/smoother response.

Maybe you should try opposite corners.

As Dave points out, there're two different approaches in locating two subs. Any two subs playing simultaneously result in a 3dB level increase, however if the two cones are located very close to each other(either horizontally or vertically), within about one-quarter wavelength, they mutually support each other and the level increase can be 6dB rather than 3dB.

The other approach looks for not an extra increase in level, but reducing room modes for smoother bass throughout the room. For this purpose the subs are widely separated at the midpoints of opposite walls or in diagonally opposite corners.

Bolted. The low frequency sound needs to be conducted from the Buttkicker to you. There can't be an air gap, because that would insulate you from the sound.

On the original question, I'd prefer two EP500s to one EP800, and a Buttkicker or any different sub with an EP500 to two EP500s. The rule is that two different kinds of bass will probably give better results than a single kind of bass. And that's because the more alike two bass sources are, the more likely it is that you'll have bass cancellation (which you want to avoid).

Greg, not so; cancellation is precisely what is wanted when two subs are positioned to reduce the effect of room modes.