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Posted By: cdot2four Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:14 AM
Ok so I was playing IM2 and in the opening scene I heard a fluttering coming from my M80's I was worried but after watching more I noticed it was fireworks going off (or I thought) so I didn't turn it down. But the next explosion I heard it again but louder I Listen to all my blurays at 0 and have never heard this before. I turned the volume down to -10 and still heard it fluttering. I ended up watching the rest at -20 and the fluttering stopped. I just added a vp 180 to my set up and the sound is definetly not coming from that it's the m80's. I have a 2809 denon and a emotiva xpa5, it's just a 3.0 setup. Have the speakers blown? Or is that movie just bass heavy? Would a sub fix this issue? Thanks
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:22 AM
Do you have your M80's set to large? If so set the speakers to small in the receiver bass management settings with 60hz or 80hz crossover point. You are asking those drivers in the M80's to do far too much and the fluttering is a sign of distress or possibly even permanent damage.

Get a good subwoofer. In fact...

Iron Man 2 is a bass heavy movie that is mixed quite "hot" on a lot of scenes. It will even make a lot of subwoofers which are specifically designed for this application of producing low frequencies to make unwanted sounds at reference levels - "flap", "fart", "chuff", "rattle", "flutter" etc.


Posted By: cdot2four Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:33 AM
Yeah I have them at large at 80hz so if I move them to small and then run audyssey I should be fine?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:44 AM
Setting each speaker to small with a 60hz or 80hz crossover point will definitely take the stress off those drivers during those scenes at those reference levels. Having the M80's set to large you are asking those drivers to produce low frequencies at high output in those movies which they are not capable of and are becoming distressed and bottoming out as noted by the "fluttering" sound.

I would recommend a subwoofer to fill the area between the 80hz to 30hz/20hz region.
Posted By: cdot2four Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:52 AM
Do u think I just over worked them? I really hope there is no damage.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 12:58 AM
My guess is no. That you did not do permanent damage to the drivers based on the fact that after you turned the volume down after the first few scenes, the rest of the movie you didn't hear any of those "fluttering" or other nasty sounds coming from the speaker (and there is a lot of midbass and low content after that). The drivers were simply getting over worked for those first few scenes and you had enough common sense to turn things down.
Posted By: cdot2four Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 01:03 AM
Yeah they were still rocking after that just at a lower volume. Didn't hear anything odd the rest of the movie. Thanks for your help
Posted By: solarrdadd Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 02:54 AM
using my pre-amps calibration setup, my 5507's Audyssey
MultEQ XT has set up my front 3 (M80v3's & VP180v3) to 40hz each, but, it has compensated with the individual levels for each channel so that no matter what i have played it at in my HT area everything sounds great. i listen to my movies between 50 to 60 (absolute) which is -32db to -22db (relative) and (it's plenty loud for me and my family) my surrounds QS8v3's are crossed over at 100hz and my surround backs M2v3's are crossed at 80hz everything sounds perfect. of course this is in my place with the furniture, room shape, couch, love seat book cases and such that it was all configured by Audyssey MultEQ XT to give me the best sound possible.

so just the crossover adjustment alone is only a small part of it. the individual levels need to be corrected as well. have you given your systems calibration program a try and then play the movie? i have not used an SPL to set up anything, i do have trust and faith in the 5507 & in Audyssey MultEQ XT & Dynamic EQ and they, thus far have helped give me some of the best sounding audio in both movies & music that I have ever heard in my life, in my HT area.

mind you i am using two dedicated amps for my gear, an XPA-5 for the main 5 and a UPA-2 for the surround back 2 and i never have worries about stressing them but that is to me the difference and reasons I wanted full seperates with dedicated external amps.

I would also ask if the OP is having problems with any other movie other than IM2 with strange sounds coming from the speaker that are not in the soundtrack or are distorted souunds that are part of the soundtrack? I'd also recommend checking out a couple of other movies to test that. Try The Incredible Hulk, Taken & Star Trek. see if any of these movies cause the same issue or not. check your levels too and of course, what volume are you actually listening to your movies at? in relation to the room size and distance you sit away from your speakers.

I do hope we can help you out cdot2four, we all want you to enjoy your Axioms!
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 03:02 AM
You don't want to be running the M80's set to large at reference levels EVER with these highly dynamic blu-ray disks which most are mixed "hot" in the midbass and bass department. You do not want to try to repeat this issue because you can be at risk doing permanent damage to the speaker.



Posted By: solarrdadd Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 03:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Dr.House
You don't want to be running the M80's set to large at reference levels EVER with these highly dynamic blu-ray disks which most are mixed "hot" in the midbass and bass department. You do not want to try to repeat this issue because you can be at risk doing permanent damage to the speaker.




your correct, i didn't realize that he didn't have a sub when running them, i thought it said 3.1 so i was surprised at the settings. most receivers will set the fronts to full if no sub is there and your correct, it's not a good idea when trying to run blu's at such an incredibly high volume level. i was in the middle of editing my post when i saw that and tried to simply delete it and start over but it wouldn't let me delete it.
Posted By: solarrdadd Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 03:09 AM
sorry about that cdot2four, i didn't read your post correctly. you definetely need a sub and how big is your room that you can stand listening to movies at that volume?!? I thought me listening to movies at 50 to 60 Absolute was loud (not too loud but loud) WoW, I've got sissy volume levels next to yours!
Posted By: bdpf Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:54 AM
I know it can happen cause I had the same problem as the OP a few months ago but don't really understand how it can happen! How can a driver be in distress? Specially since the OP has a dedicated amp, the M80s should have plenty of power to play whatever they can? I'm lost...
Posted By: fredk Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 05:23 AM
Because the driver does not have enough displacement to make the sounds it is being asked to.

It is possible to have a 6" driver produce audible sounds in the 25 Hz region, BUT ONLY if it is a very high excursion driver and it is very efficiently acoustically coupled (ie: a larg horn loaded sub )

Since the driver does not have huge excursion and it is not efficiently coupled to the air, all it can do a flap.
Posted By: bdpf Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 02:53 PM
In that case, shouldn't the M80s (or other towers) have high pass filters below their -3dB point to avoid damaging the drivers?

Also, the OP has a sub and chooses to redirect the LFE to main + sub, in that I understand, the M80s are asked to play 20Hz and they can't. However, in may case, I have no sub so the .1 should not be played. I thought only the LFE channel would go that low, not the Front channels. Am I misunderstanding something?
Posted By: ClubNeon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 03:07 PM
The cabinet itself is an acoustic high-pass filter. But put enough power into it, and you'll still cause significant speaker movement. It's not just that the drivers can't play 20 Hz, the air in the cabinet itself will help to impede cone movement below a certain frequency, offing some protection.

There can easily be content down to 5 Hz or so recorded on digital formats. I have CDs with 5 Hz tones. Without a crossover setting those notes would come out the main speakers.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 03:22 PM
Hi bdpf,

LFE+Main settings allows both the main speakers, the M80's in this case to be set to large playing low frequency content that otherwise would be sent to the subwoofer. Now if you have the crossover of the sub set at 80hz this is the area below the subwoofer will be utilized as well. The best I can describe it as a "double bass" feature.

This is a bad idea in general for a few reasons even for floorstanders.

1) Blu-ray movies have a lot of content below 40hz with even some subsonic content with extreme dynamic range. Loudspeakers are not meant to reproduce such frequencies at reference levels even the M80's. The M80's will sound a lot cleaner and handle more power set to small crossed over to at least 40hz.

2) You have these powerful amps and by having the M80's set to large you are robbing them unecessarily of power and headroom for the mains because instead of having the subwoofer handling the bass scenes which a well designed subwoofer should do well on most occasions (that has its own amp) the speakers are drawing power as well and this is the area the current draw will be the most. The amp for the speakers will be drawing a ton of current and working harder along with the speakers because of the low impedance of the M80's in the low to lower frequencies during those scenes.
Essentially by doing this you are making your amp work harder as well as your speakers especially at loud listening levels. Set to small, use a higher crossover point, a sub and the speakers will handle more power and sound cleaner especially during dynamic passages. Your risk of damaging any of your equipment is much less as well.
Posted By: bdpf Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:00 PM
Chris and Doc, Thanks for the explanation.
Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Blu-ray movies have a lot of content below 40hz with even some subsonic content with extreme dynamic range.

I thought only the LFE channel would go below that, not the FR and FL, ie if you don't have a sub they shouldn't be required to play these frequencies. I guess I am not properly understanding the difference between "regular" bass and the LFE channel.

Originally Posted By: Dr.House
The M80's will sound a lot cleaner and handle more power set to small crossed over to at least 40hz.

The reason I don't have them to small is because I don't have a sub yet so I can't cross them over. Even though I rarely watch BD at very high levels, the few times that I did I thought the M80s were doing an amazing job. The only 2 scenes that I ever heard the "flapping" were in IronMan 1 when he goes to Afghanistan and enters sonic mode and in Peter Jackson and the Olympians at the beginning when Poseidon first steps to the ground. Other than that I never heard anything else wrong.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:11 PM
With the LFE+Main setting, the low frequency signal .1 of the main speakers set to large (M80's in this case) are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer (starting approximately where the crossover point of the sub is set at). This setting creates a "double bass" effect.
Posted By: ClubNeon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:12 PM
The LFE channel isn't supposed to include pre-crossed over audio. Basically if you lose the LFE, you don't lose anything important. It's for Effects: earthquakes, explosions, etc. That doesn't mean there can't be non-effect low frequency content in the mains.

It seems that many receivers when the sub is set to None, it mixes the LFE content into the mains. That used to be disallowed, but appears to be common place now.

So something you may want to try. Don't disable the sub channel in the menu, but leave the mains set to large (don't use the plus mode). That'll at least keep the LFE out of the M80s.
Posted By: bdpf Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:35 PM
So, in the case of an Earthquake for example, is the rumbling part of the bass or part of the effect?
Posted By: ClubNeon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:39 PM
There will be some audio of the earthquake in the mains that'll be tied to the action on screen. To give an example: Sounds of cracking pavement, scraping rock, etc., and still some rumbling sounds. But the actual shaking effect will be encoded into the LFE channel.
Posted By: solarrdadd Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
The LFE channel isn't supposed to include pre-crossed over audio. Basically if you lose the LFE, you don't lose anything important. It's for Effects: earthquakes, explosions, etc. That doesn't mean there can't be non-effect low frequency content in the mains.

It seems that many receivers when the sub is set to None, it mixes the LFE content into the mains. That used to be disallowed, but appears to be common place now.

So something you may want to try. Don't disable the sub channel in the menu, but leave the mains set to large (don't use the plus mode). That'll at least keep the LFE out of the M80s.


yes, most modern receivers, if you set the sub to "none" it will automatically set the front L&R to large and send all LFE or any crossed info from surround & center channels to the front L&R. so until he gets a sub, like you said, select yes that there is a sub. also for the front L&R channels he can adjust the level for each channel, that will help with too. also in most modern receivers in order to have double bass, your front's have to be set to large or full in order for that to work. another thing i found that's interesting on most Onkyo's is that if you have the speakers full (and your only listening to 2 channel analog or you only actually have 2 speakers) you won't have a sub because the receiver will send everything to the speakers. you actually have to back it up to say 40hz, then it will automatically allow the sub to function and you will have 2.1 then you can cross over to the sub.
Posted By: bdpf Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 05:11 PM
Got it, thanks. I guess I never understood the difference since I never had a sub, had the sub setting on the receiver to NO and therefore had the LFE channel redirected to the mains still creating some light shaking at high volume level..
Posted By: Argon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 05:17 PM
I need to check when I get home - I think I have the 60s on Small. Let's say they are set to large but I am not listening at reference level or near reference - If I understand, I should be ok?
Posted By: ClubNeon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 05:33 PM
Yeah, you should be OK, except you could be wasting amp power trying to drive the speakers at 15 Hz, and getting no output in return.

I just thought of a problem for people who have surround speakers but no sub. When setting the sub channel to Yes, any speaker set to small (as the surrounds are likely to be) will lose the audio below the crossover point.

It's a real shame that receiver makers decided that Sub: None means "send the LFE to my mains". As I said, that goes against what Dolby used to recommend. They said that losing the LFE channel was fine, and that audio mixers should not put anything there that would be missed. The big problem with mixing the LFE channel into the mains is it is supposed to have 10 dB of gain applied before playback. So it isn't even at the same level as the other channels.

So, sub = yes, is fine if all your other channels are large (like a setup of all M80s/VP180s), but setting any channel to Small means losing actual content.
Posted By: Argon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 05:45 PM
Thanks, Chris. It has been a while since I set them up - like I said, I am pretty sure I set all to small.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/24/11 06:41 PM
If the impedance drops low below 20hz the speakers will be drawing a boat load of current especially at loud listening levels. Not only would you be wasting a lot of useful power but its also a good way to clip the amp as well as overheat and put a receiver into protection mode. This would not be good for the longevity of the electronics and/or speakers.
Posted By: cdot2four Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/26/11 07:42 PM
Wow 3 pages thanks for the input. I have played some more movies and everything seems fine. In a couple of weeks I will be buying a ep 500 to match everything so problem solved. When the sub comes I move the speakers back to large right?
Posted By: ClubNeon Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 02/26/11 09:43 PM
No, when the sub comes it'll start playing the sounds that you've removed from the speakers set to small. It's better use of amp power, and speaker dynamic range to do things this way. There really should be no speakers set to large when playing movies.

For two channel music, you may want to use the M80s alone, but if you have the sub placed, and calibrated well there'll be no reason.
Posted By: cdot2four Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 03/11/11 12:33 AM
When I set my speakers to small it puts the sub to yes? I don't have a sub? I can move the center to small but when I put the front to small the sub turns to yes from no??
Posted By: jakewash Re: Iron Man 2 fluttering - 03/11/11 03:47 AM
That is the way an avr works from most manufacturers. There should be a sub setting as well that must be set to no as you have no sub and once this is set to no USUALLY you won't be able to set the fronts to small
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