m80, large or small?

Posted by: minorc

m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 11:53 AM

Hey all,

Having an issue with my new amp regarding speaker designation, when I run the Mcacc on my Pioneer elite it allocates the M80 to the LARGE setting, which renders my Velodyne 12" sub useless in every mode except for watching blu-ray's on the PS3. From what I can gather reading different threads scattered about the net, the LARGE setting is for full range speakers that can handle bass output, and the SMALL setting is for speakers that you only want very little bass and the rest to be handled with the sub.

I understand that by having the M80's set to SMALL it takes a bit of stress off the Amp not having to pound the bass, but is really optimal for the speaker? I mean it has 2 woofers, you would think it could handle some bass, I even have them Bi-amped.

I can't seem to figure out why there is no bass output from the sub in any other mode but PSM (digital signal on PS3).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by: minorc

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 02:04 PM

Well I just found a mode in the settings called "plus" which allows me to keep the M80's in the LARGE setting and have subwoofer playback.

Is this optimal? Any guru's want to chime in?
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 02:14 PM

The general recommendation is to crossover your mains to your sub at 80Hz, but personally I would look to cross them over a little lower considering your M80s are very capable.

In my particular room, I get smoother bass by crossing over my M60s at 40Hz and using the Denon version of "Plus" as well. I also have an outboard 200 WPC amp to take much of the burden off of my receiver.

No offense, but it's not likely that you are actually bi-amped.
Posted by: Murph

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 03:00 PM

Your M80s can certainly handle lots of bass. No fear there. However, if you have a quality subwoofer, it is normally better to let it handle the LFE and let the mains concentrate on 80 Hz plus(or whatever your crossover is set to). No need to reproduce the bass twice. In fact, they call this "double bass" and it is not normally recommended although a few people actually like it. The crossover is not a hard cut-off so they will still do some bass below that number, it is more of a slope.

Also, what Mark was wondering about being bi-amped is, you are undoubtedly using 2 separate amp channels per speaker and you probably have removed the clips tethering the binding posts together but have you also gone to the trouble of using completely power separate amps & removing the crossovers in the speakers to be replaced with active crossovers before they even get to the binding posts.

If not, then what you have done is 'passive' bi-amping. It's fun to do but each driver is still receiving essentially the same full range signal going to both binding posts and there is no effect to sound quality (except at a subliminal level... which is where the "no offense" part comes in.)

If you have done the complete 'active' bi-amping job, please let us know the specifics and what you thought of the results. Not many of us have gone this route so it would be fun to get your experience.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 04:11 PM

I have M22's as mains and vp160 (+ 1 M22) as center. My Denon allows me to assign different cross overs per channel, so I use 80 for mains and 60 for center, and 100 for surrounds.
Posted by: minorc

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 04:43 PM

As of right now my setting's have the M80's set to large with an 80Hz crossover and the sub set to PLUS. The subwoofer is a very capable Velodyne DPS-12.

No offense taken, I'm here ready and willing to learn.

I did the Bi-amping as per owners manual instructions.

Removed the jumpers.
Top inputs of M80's are on the FR+FL inputs
Bottom inputs of M80's are on Surround Back inputs.
Update:Google search shattered my expectations of Bi-amping.

So what I did accomplishes nothing?

At the moment I'm only running 3 speakers and the sub, I have another M22 not connected.
Posted by: LucRaymond

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 05:59 PM

Originally Posted By: minorc
Hey all,
I can't seem to figure out why there is no bass output from the sub in any other mode but PSM (digital signal on PS3).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

If you set your speaker to large they will play all frequencies. If you set some speakers to SMALL, all their lower frequencies (below the crossover point) will be sent to the sub.

If your sub is set to YES (not plus). It will only play the bass from the SMALL speakers or the LFE channel (.1). If your M80 are set to LARGE and you play a stereo content, your sub will be inactive. If you set it to PLUS, it will play the lower frequencies from all speakers.

You can also have the sub working if you leave it on YES and choose ALL CHANNELS STEREO or if you use a special Ambiance Mode.

I personally use the PLUS mode.. and keep the sub volume at a low level.
Posted by: 1sweetspot

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 08:18 PM

I have my Pioneer set to large plus for my fronts (M60's) as I prefer the sound and bought floorstanders for that purpose. otherwise, bookshelf speakers that reach to 70 hz or so would be good enough. Your M80's will handle bass I'm sure. experiment to see what you prefer-that's what makes it fun.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/07/13 10:32 PM

Chris, when you have a good sub such as you do, all speakers are "small", even ones physically large as the M80. The point is that although the speaker may handle the bass reasonably well, a good sub does it even better and the speaker should be relieved of the lowest bass burden(no large or "plus" setting which forces it to play full range)so that it can play the higher frequencies more cleanly.

Yes, the so-called "biamping" claimed by some receivers accomplishes nothing. Using two output channels from the same amplifier instead of one isn't biamping. It might be called "bi-channeling" or something, but still is drawing voltage from the one power supply section and no increase in power is possible.
Posted by: minorc

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/09/13 06:16 PM

Good stuff, thanks John
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: m80, large or small? - 01/09/13 06:49 PM

chris if you have your 80's set to large, then there is no crossover, so not sure how you can have 80hz. the crossover comes into play when you set a speaker to small, and select a frequency below for which the sub blends. just because you set to small, has nothing to do with physical size of speakers. With a setting of small and say 60-80 for a crossover, your 80's will still pump out very low/powerful bass, and hand off the real low stuff to the sub which does a better job moving air.