Good Morning,

Over the last two weeks while running the new M5HP speakers on the Onkyo TX-NR6050, the receiver will make a random click noise every now and again. The sound is like the click noise it makes when you turn it off and on, so it sound like a relay flipping. When I watch tv or movies, it rarely ever clicks, but when I am listening to louder music, it will click every few minutes especially if there is a higher amount of bass in the sound.

The click is low volume, but its enough to hear it and its coming directly from the receiver and not through the speakers. I checked the settings of the receiver for an eco mode, but the receiver doesnt have anything like that. It does have an impedance selector which is 6 or above or 4. I have it set to 6 and above.

Is this normal for a receiver to make this sound in the middle of playing sound with no changes to the sound type or anything?

Should I request a replacement receiver and test that one to see if it makes the sound as well? It looks like costco will send me a new one and I can just return the old to the warehouse within 30 days.

Thank you.

I'm aware that some receivers "click" during commercial breaks as the sound changes from 5.1 during the program to stereo during the commercial. A clicking during music playback as you describe is not right.

I am curious if the clicking will go away when the setting is 4 Ohms. Can you try that?

I'm also curious what source you are using for music.

Thank you.

I can try changing the ohm setting to 4 later tonight and see if that makes any difference. It doesn't really happen when watching tv, but I am streaming content anyway without commercials.


I am using HDMI EARC to run the audio from the TV to the receiver. Lately I have just been using Youtube to listen to music. Last night when I was testing it, I turned up the volume to a point where the music is loud, but not overpowering and it would start clicking every so often, sometimes every few minutes like when the music became more demanding. Listening to the same music, I turned down the volume to lower levels and the clicks stop.

I have stood by the receiver to see if the music was changing from like stereo to surround etc and I don't see any changes on the receiver status screen to indicate the type of sound is changing when it clicks.
Its been doing this since I got the receiver.

Also check to make sure you don't have loudness compensation turned on. That lowers the volume during loud passages which is handy for those not looking for a divorce.

Another thing to try is to force it into a 2-channel setting.

The final thing is setting the M5s to small from large if you can or the frequency cut-off to 80Hz.

My 2012 Onk doesn't click BTW.

My Onkyo TX-SR393 AVR also clicks randomly. It's a relay switch, and after perusing multiple forums, apparently they all do it. There's no rhyme or reason, it just does, and it's not a warranty issue nor necessarily a design defect.

Dolby Digital was the missing piece that brought audio nirvana to my home; the M5HP was barely an upgrade from my already very good Kanto Yumi. There just isn't any music where I prefer stereo over 5.1 channel audio.

I don't do DTS:X though, it adds unwanted equalization.

Yeah I saw this mentioned in some other Onkyo posts on the web as well that it seems they do this, but not specific to the model I have. Its something I wont notice after a while, but I am just concerned there might be a problem later down the line if its not normal.

The receiver is setup in a 2 channel setting right now. I literally only have the two speakers right now with a center coming eventually when axiom ships it.

I wonder what the loudness compensation setting is called on the receiver settings. I will play around with the settings later to see if anything I do will stop it.

Nice thing is that I got this form costco, so I can pretty much return it at any point if I wanted. I might get a second unit to see if the other unit does this as well.

Onkyo calls their loudness compensation/equal loudness contour/Fletcher-Munson curve the "Music Optimizer". It supposedly restores compressed music, but to my ears, it's just a loudness switch. I use it when I listen to music at level 45 or less. It doesn't appear to do anything to compressed music, unlike the magical Sony DSEE HX engine in some of their headphone products.

I just can not come up with a explanation of why a relay needs to be flipped when you’re not changing anything. If it were the source material switching from 2ch to 5.1 and back it would happen at low volume as well as high. The only other reason (for a relay) I came up with I eliminated the second I thought of it … as no sane designer would use a relay to control a fan. If it’s not a relay … perhaps it’s a heat issue or a electromagnetic issue … in any case IMO anything clicking when nothing is change is either a design flaw or a defect.

If Onkyo claims otherwise then I’d love to know what it’s doing … after which I’d recommend getting a different receiver

Yeah I didn't have time last night to test anything, but will be working with the setting this weekend. I was looking at other receivers though and its a bit crazy how much of a price difference it is to go from a budget receiver like I have to something mid tier. Almost double the price.

In recent years, mainstream manufacturers have taken the approach of packing as many features as possible into their budget receivers which of course, comes at the expense of other important items such as number of channels, number and type of inputs and outputs, power output, quality and size of power supplies and DACs, build quality and other items I cannot think of for the moment. Although, as you say, a big uptick in price, more often than not, the extra expense for the mid-upper tier receiver can allow for more future proofing for extra channels, adding outboard amplifiers and additions etc. that the budget unit usually does not.

Nowadays the problem is just trying to get one.

i would have the concern that if it only makes the noise when you push the receiver to be loud. to me that would bring the worry that it's something to do with the power supply and or clipping on the amplifier section. As you have pointed out, this is not a higher end receiver so it can be that the specs on the amount of watts it can handle may be optimistically overstated.

I kind of doubt it’s a setting thing … but if you find it is I like to know about it.

Accessories4less.com has ok prices on refurbs. Out of 3 unit I bought 2 were perfect. The third AV8805 took a phone call,to Marantz tech services (to verify that I wasn’t missing something .. ie user error). Acc4less replaced it paying for return shipping. The 2nd unit worked flawlessly.

Not sure what your willing to spend … A 75watt 5.1 denon $350. A 75w 7.1 $450.
I bought a SR5014 a 7.1 (least expensive unit I could find with pre-outs in sept 2020). Currently it’s $750. It’s replacement 5015 is $800.

I bought the last great Onk for 700 Canadian beaver tails from Agent Orange at Visions in 2012 complete with XT32 and almost as much power as the ADA-1000-2. So nya nya nya nya nya!

Unlike the 1000-2, my Onk is full of technology described in dozens of patents including advanced vibration dampening as described in the patent below. These patents make it sound similarly good to any Bryston gear and this is a fact even though I've never heard Bryston (hee hee flame on). To vex off evil spirits, after my Totem Dreamcatchers ignited from the full onslaught of my ADA-1500-3, I removed the factory-installed purple dots above the tweeters acting as talismen and glued them on my Onk. Vince Bruzzece would be proud! His dinky, charred woofers are now entertaining the squirrels in my backyard:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7773373

Of note is the following excerpt:

"The function of the vibration-damping structure of the AV amplifier will now be described. With a configuration as described above, when the power of the AV amplifier is turned ON, a voltage is applied to the main transformer 52 and the sub-transformers 53 and a current flows therethrough. As a current flows through the main transformer 52 and the sub-transformers 53, these components vibrate slightly. Moreover, the exhaust fans 54 are rotated by a driving circuit (not shown) to also vibrate slightly. As the main transformer 52, the sub-transformers 53 and the exhaust fans 54 vibrate slightly, these vibrations are transmitted to the component accommodating chassis 45 on which these components are mounted.
Since the component accommodating chassis 45 is fastened to the sub-chassis 25 so as to be partially in contact with the sub-chassis 25 via a plurality of fastening members, the vibrations of the component accommodating chassis 45 are attenuated while being transmitted to the sub-chassis 25. Similarly, since the sub-chassis 25 is fastened to the main chassis 11 so as to be partially in contact with the main chassis 11 via a plurality of fastening members, the vibrations of the sub-chassis 25 are further attenuated while being transmitted to the main chassis 11."

There's more interesting reading below the above excerpt that describes the nasty effects of these vibrations on the audio signal.

Norimasa Kitagawa and the rest of his Onk crew wouldn't make this up. These guys do nothing, I mean absolutely nothing in their lives but eat and breathe this stuff all day and all night.

P.S. I remember reading that Onkyo had a heck of a time with vibration modelling. They'd introduce stiffening in one area only to discover that reflections from the stiffener resulted in more complex vibrations that created more problems. This is one reason a well-designed EI transformer is preferred over a toroidal transformer for power supplies. The EI transformer is less likely to vibrate particularly with a DC component on the powerline.

P.P.S. Agent Orange is the nickname I gave the sales guy because he had Orange hair and spittled as he scuttled his stammerings.

So I played music at 69.5 volume with the speakers set at 6+ohms for about 20 min and the receiver clicked 4 times in that period. I set speakers to 4ohms listened at same volume for 25 min and no clicks so far. No difference in sound quality either between the two.

I think the clicking is changing the ohms setting while playing to power the m5s maybe. When I changed the ohms setting the receiver clicked the same way.

I did order a replacement unit to see if another unit acts in the same manner.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/pub/media/catalog/product/m/5/m5hp-impedance.png

Someone mentioned this in the other thread I started about the ohms falling below 6 at some frequencies but they rate it as 8. Wonder if this is what is causing it.

Yup. That was me.

When you set to 4 Ohms, it is easier on the receiver. While your volume control is set to the same amount, the sound pressure coming out of the speakers is not the same. The difference may be imperceptible to you though. So just leave it at 4 Ohms and enjoy until you check out the replacement unit.

Hey, I got another idea. Leave it at 6 and turn it up loud enough so you don't hear the relay clicking. If it ignites, you'll have another to play with.

BTW, if you had bought the M2, you wouldn't have this problem. And I bet in that small room of yours, the bass would have been plenty. And with a sub in your future, you'd have pristine sound. You can always get the M2s for the missus though. And then you two can swap speakers every once in a while to keep things interesting, you know?

Switching the speaker impedance automatically while the music was playing would not be my first design choice. Your changing the voltage rails on the fly … trading voltage for current. I guess if the caps are big enough the transition would be smooth. If they are doing that (auto detecting it) and your speaker demands high current at some frequencies and needs a higher voltage at others (to avoid clipping) … then you’d get into this situation when you play this speaker louder than the receiver can cleanly produce … best guess

Personally I’d put a hard impedance switch on the back myself. it’s simple.

Actually, it's a very smart move by Onkyo and for all I know, it may now be required for CUL and CE certification. Someone using a 4 Ohm speaker with the switch set to 6 Ohms could ignite the receiver. The relay acts as protection while still keeping the system running.

I'd just leave the Onkyo on the 6 to 8 Ohm setting. TL;DR: the 4 Ohm switch is to pass UL/CSA certification and prove that an AVR won't catch on fire.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1

I disagree on his other untenable stances (center channel comb filtering is a problem, 80 Hz as the ideal crossover frequency, etc.), but in this case I tend to agree with his assessment. And you'd be surprised at the number of audiophile components that don't have that those certifications.

You'd be surprised at the number of audio companies that self-certify with no back-up.

Only a very poorly design one … le no self protection

Well I will see if the new unit I get next week does the same thing or not. I took a look at the accessories4less site.

https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...0-7.2-ch-x-110-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

Not sure if this is worth spending an extra $350 on over the one I have though. By how much it weighs it likely contains much better quality components. I would be missing out on the 8k passthrough, however that is not a big deal as I can just run a cable directly to the tv if i need 4k 120hz, which i would literally only ever need if I hook a computer up to it for gaming. It does have YPAO though which ive read is one of the better room correction utilities.


https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...h-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

This one looks decent as well. although I don't see it has room correction.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr5015/marantz-sr5015-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-a/v-8k-receiver-w/heos/1.html#!specifications This Marantz also looks nice and would be $800.

The Denon has XT32 vs just XT for the Marantz. XT32 changed my audio life. YPAO is a child's toy in comparison.

Not sure 8k is worth the money. You’d have to be sitting closer then comfortable to really need it. Besides it will be a while before 8k is affordable. Just MO.

Eblack, the Denon hands-down. Really too bad the Marantz at that price doesn't have XT32.

Just buy a NAD T778 and be done with it.

Cheap as dirt. Yikes!

We seem to have some price creep going on here … $350, $450, $750, and now … a $3000+ NAD … UNLESS Trevor has a source he like to tell us about …

Oh BTW, that NAD looks like a really nice receiver ,,. But I’d personally save up for Altitude 32 myself … think you can pick one up for as little as $24,000.00 USD. Oh, you’ll need to budget a few extra dollars for amplification as it’s only a prepro …

aaah what the hell … might as well complete the package by expanding the listen room AND don’t forget some extra speakers and subs …

Justify it by telling your wife how much you saved by avoiding those expensive interconnects .

If it were only that easy to just feign ignorance over some cheap inter connects Rrlev.

Onkyo has declared bankruptcy FYI y’all. Saw it on my google feed a few times now. Must be true. I think it is actually.. isn’t this the second time for them or it was a close call last time. ? I can’t remember. Hop fully they continue somehow with product support.

Premier Audio bought them. They're still making receivers and have promised to kick everyone's butt.

I only use Denon for installs. Engineers usually only spec Denon on drawings as well. All other installers I know are same boat.

For my personal missions at home its NAD. Dirac plus high power (under spec’d) amps on board makes it a great value. Even if they are expensive, I’ve tried the others…. Dirac is just too good to ignore. As for deals on NAD, try The Audio Room in Calgary. They sell packages and will usually discount if you buy more than one item.

Wouldnt install Onkyo and have discouraged a recent build away from them. Normal for clicks? Huh? Tried Sony, nope. Wont install Yamaha or Pioneer either. Cant take a flier with someone elses money. I always discourage “deal” based buying. You still pay, just in other ways usually -in life in general my philosphy is this. Being cheap costs you more than you think. I digress.

Why Denon? Unfaltering reliability and 100% compatability out of the box. Setup is easy and versatile for current immersive formats. They have ridiculous market share so updates are timely if needed. Menus are braindead to follow, so I dont get callbacks later when the homeowner has changed a setting they dont understand. Bluetooth is rock solid and they are up and running 30 seconds after I hand them the remote. Best sound? Nope. But pretty darn good and none of my installs are for audiophiles. They would be bad customers anyway honestly… lol.

I think it might be the receiver that is bad. I turned the av back to 6+ ohms and it was even clicking at lower volumes from time to time in the middle of watching or listening to content yesterday. I read through a lot of the reviews for the receiver and didn't see anyone make mention of having this clicking problem.

I agree completely when it comes to purchasing items, that buying budget will end up costing you more when you buy the nice item the second time. I will see how the replacement item functions first before I decide to spend more on an AV. I was originally looking at the denon S760H, but that unit got many bad reviews with it.

It appears these costco models are the best bang for the buck type of receivers and if I were to spend double the amount, I am having a hard time seeing what the value would be other than a little more power and better automated room correction.

I hope the replacement does the trick. I want to let you know though, not to under-estimate room correction like XT32.

It's fine if you want to return it, my Onkyo runs fine after a year even with the occasional clicking. I dropped the pre-pro upgrade idea when I realized that the highest I've ever listened to was 83dB peak, and that was at an extremely unpleasant volume for me. That 83 dB at the seating position roughly works out to a power output of...1 Watt/channel.

I agree with TrevorM about buying nice or buying twice. But I don't think there's anything wrong with having a starter AVR for a few years, make a wishlist of all the things you want to add, and then check the marketplace in a few years to see what scratches that itch.

I think Denon is hard to beat in the low tiers (<$500-600). Over that Marantz starts giving Denon some competition in the feature department (like preouts etc) . Once over say $1500 others come into play like NAD.

I personally avoid Sony and Yamaha mainly for room correction. But Sony low end especially ,,, they pulled stuff like marketing RCA video in but burying that it out won’t connect to HDMI out. I couldn’t believe it … the rca and hdmi video switching circuits were independent! That’s Marketing at it worst.

Back in the 90’s I was an Onkyo fan but have since moved away and don’t know much about them any more.

I too have switched from Onkyo to Denon and damn glad i did after reading this thread.
I had contemplated going with Onkyo again during the media room rebuild but a few things swung me to Denon, primarily the longer standing reputation for quality along with the better room correction software.
One thing i don't like is that i can't see to easily change the DSP mode from the front buttons. I hate having to use a remote to access such functions. It's a small but niggling thing. The other night i noticed while watching Crave that i had sound from my side surrounds but not the rears. The Denon was set in DD mode, it was only recognizing 5 speakers, not 7, but of course when i watch Disney+ or other that have a stream in more than 5.1 DD, the rear surround do kick in.
Kind of annoying that i can't get all the surrounds to produce sound when the Denon is in DD mode with a 5.1 signal.
Unless i'm missing something here.

I find it difficult a lot of the time to know exactly what surround mode I’m in. Often I have to flick through a few just to be sure.

On your 5.1 - 7.1 issue think I had the same problem when I had a 7.1 setup.
In the new family room it’s just a 5.1 setup. So … issue solved

You have to set it to dolby surround. Just hit the colored buttons at bottom of remote until it cycles to Dolby Surround/Atmos. Then leave it and it will default to that decoder next time that codec is detected.

Does it switch automatically (do the right thing) between that and 2ch music from cd, video dvd, and streaming music or video from the tv?

Yes, it remembers what you set on each input and returns as it senses signals.

Your Marantz should do the same I would think.

Looks like Onkyo has joined the list of portfolio brands. I fully expect Onkyo branded instant noodles, dishwasher rinse aid, and hand sanitizer in the near future.

https://www.audioholics.com/news/despite-bankruptcy-onkyo-pioneer-elite-av-drives-on

The Denon is set to DD when using Crave or Fibe. However, that 5.1 signal does not translate to the other two rear surrounds. When scrolling through the DSPs available, the other options are not DD (i can get all channel multi audio for example, or Neural X, etc.). When using the Apple tv cube, i also do not get a simple DD and instead get a different indicator symbols which you can see here :https://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4400H/NA/EN/DRDZSYhrhvtgzs.php

Anyway, long story short, i figured out what was happening and the primary issues were two things; signal from the individual apps not having all the same DSP default (i thought they did when i first set it all up) and almost more importantly, the AVR display mode is not what i was used to using.

First, Apple tv cube (or my Roku) had the default Dolby Atmos version when using Disney, Prime. No problems though as previously noted, the Roku will say DD + Atmos or something like that while the Apple tv cube uses these symbols. Both do all surround sound 7.1.

However, when the Bell PVR was in use, or the Bell Fibe app (through the Roku or the Apple tv cube), the default was Dolby Digital. This sounds 'right' but it is only DD 5.1. This is what threw me along with something i had not expected; the difference between how my older Onkyo AVR displayed DSPs on its LED screen vs. this new Denon. When scrolling through DSPs, the Onkyo would show you what you have selected. The Denon would show you what you have selected on the FIRST LED line, but on the SECOND LED line it shows you the next DSP in the list if you keep scrolling!
So, for example:

Onkyo LED panel output would look like this if Direct was the DSP selected:
Direct

Denon panel output would look like this:
Direct
Stereo

If i selected stereo next for both:
Onkyo
Stereo

Denon
Stereo
Dolby Digital

So here's the kicker. When i move on to the DD surround modes, here is how the Denon reads:
Dolby Digital +
Dolby Surround

When i see that on the LED output, i assumed i was in the Dolby Digital format that was required for the full 7.1 system. It literally looks like that is how it reads but it is deceiving especially since i was used to how my old Onkyo displayed the DSPs. Hence, by pressing the DSP menu one more time, it went into the Dolby Surround mode for all 7.1 whereas the previous DD was obviously just 5.1.

I now set that as the default for each of the apps, devices that were not setup that way before and going forward, if i change the DSP at all (like listening to music in Direct mode), i now know about how the Denon displays its DSP on its front panel.

My main issue with most of these modes is that I've never proven to my self that they setup right automatically. In the family room I use the TV to access all the streaming services. The video does not go though the receiver (although it might get it). The Marantz SR5014's only has a tiny porthole I have to walk up to to see what codec is set ... it's why I'm always a bit uncertain about it.

The HT's 8805 has a larger Display behind a door below the porthole which gives you a lot more info. I leave it open most of the time.

My last great Onk ever built is flawless! It detects formats from my PS3 and Firestick 4K. I am also able to configure the channel format I want on a per-source basis such that, for example, if a stereo signal is detected, it will auto-switch to PLII or Neo.

There are no funny clicks, pops or farts. It is rock solid. I will never let go of that Onk until it goes up in flames. Even then, I will dawn my fire suit, douse the flames, and using my vast skills, restore it to its former glory!

If you go back to 1993 or so, I had the top of the line Onkyo receiver (TX-SV909PRO). I loved that unit. It was built like a tank, But at the time the surround formats were kind of in flux and within a few years started to feel bit stale. I kept it anyway waiting for things to settle. Used it for audio only for a while and then gave it to my cousin when we moved to a place that didn't have a great place to put a system. I was actually sad to part with it. It served me well for almost 10 years and it' may still going. So, I know what you mean Mojo.

Yes and it'll be 10 years this fall and not a single battery change for the remote. And I've tried to kill it by shorting the speaker wires and dumping all it has into the M5s. Sounded like garbage but it wouldn't cut out.

When I had M100s, my VP160 mounted me Onk and covered most of the ventilation grid. The Onk kept powering the M100s no problem. I even juiced the M100 with all she had and after my room stunk of scorched voice coil and broiled cross-over, the Onk finally self-protected.

Well I got the replacement receiver and set it up last night. It appears the clicking is normal for this model and how the receiver handles changes in impedance/power draw I'm guessing. I suppose I will have to decide if I want to keep this or not as it mostly happens when listening to music pretty loud. I find it odd that this clicking isn't mentioned in reviews of the receiver. At least with Costco's return policy I have time to decide as I can technically return this whenever as its not on their 90 day return list of items.

Actually nevermind, I was reading more reviews and I found some about the clicking sound the receiver makes, and that their other model of Onkyo does this same thing unless the impedance is changed to 4ohms.

If you examine the impedance curve of the M5, you'll notice it dips to 6 Ohms below 80Hz. It dips even lower between 100Hz and 500Hz but there's less energy in that band typically. Therefore, try cutting the M5 off at 80Hz to see if the clicking stops. If it does, that tells you all will be well when you get a sub.

Thank you, I will have to figure out how to configure it that way over the weekend and test it. I am starting to get used to the sound and not notice it as much.

I just happened to notice strictly by accident that the company that owns the Onkyo/Pioneer brands filed for bankruptcy on May 13. It seems the convoluted ownership is downplaying the whole thing and they will continue to be offered, however, what happens with these companies going forward is anyone's guess and ultimately, it will be the potential customer who determines whether or not there will be a future for the brands.

They may rise from the ashes like a Phoenix and crush it!

Totally! Like Blackberry.

The North American custom sales channels for these brands has been in shambles for years. They are a race to the bottom commodity product now. ie. costco/bestbuy brand. Too bad. The click is a power limiting cct btw. Similar issue in review at ASR.

I tried to get a line on products a few years ago and was told dont bother….

Edit. Just heard from one of our foreman that ordered a RZ50 back in November! Still no show. Told him get refund stat. Not good.

So yeah……

We ordered a new dishwasher in February as ours is having more issues than i care to keep fixing. Were thinking a bit ahead to buy before it dies.
Expected arrival date, sometime later this month (May). Yes, 3+ months to receive a new appliance.
Things are very very slow.
If no inventory, you have to wait for literally it to be built and shipped, most often from oversees.
Crazy times.

Hah so the next night after I setup the replacement AV, it wanted me to do the first time setup a second time, which is a little weird. When I went to run the EARC connection setting part of it, the new AV just stopped connecting to the TV and wont run the initial setup for it anymore. Anytime I try to setup the AV, it wont connect via EARC. Tried to reset it, but its no longer working. Glad I didn't send back the original unit I had yet as that one is working just fine. Haven't tried to limit the frequency on the speakers yet though.

Buyer beware on the TX-NR6050 Onkyo.

Yikes! I take back what I said about the value of that model. Eblack, that model may have the dreaded HDMI board problem. Your first unit's HDMI board may go on you at any time.

Based on a preponderance of the data you presented, I judge that model to be a POS. Ditch it!

That or Onkyo's QC is not what it used to be ... guess we can take our pick based on the thin data we have ...

- Marketing dictating a price at which engineering needs sacrifice quality.
- engineering did a shit design job
- Manufacturing is cutting corners (Internal or Contract manufactures need to overseen)
- which brings us back to QC not flagging that the units are not working coming off the line ...

Or you are very very unlucky ...

That is IT! In protest to support Eblack, I'll be flattening my Onk with my 10 lb sledge followed by a ceremonial ignition in my firepit.

This is certainly unfortunate.
Run it through warranty if possible. Return if you can.
Sell if it gets fixed.
Buy something else.

Knowing that Onkyo was 'falling behind' a few others on features and quality (small items but significant and enough to note), is one of the reasons i went with a Denon this time.

Don't forget to post the pictures

Lol!

So I got a sub today and when the AccuEQ was run, it did the cutoff at 200hz for the fronts. I started listening to some music and some movie trailers and the receiver did click when the low frequencies were prevalent in the content, so it appears this AV receiver just likes to click when the content is loud and pushing the bass.


No idea if I will keep this AV or not as I really do like the sound it produces, but the clicks as a feature is a very poor design.

I still cant get over how much i like these M5 speakers, but it kind of amazed me that the sound from the subwoofer was not localized at all. It was like it was coming directly from the M5s when it wasn't. Too bad there are random clicks from the receiver lol.

Amazing, eh? Good stuff. Wait 'till you get 7 subs.

Did you get the SVS you ordered or did you use some other sub?

I got the SVS sub I ordered yesterday lol. Didn't realize they are located like a hour from where I live. I actually ordered a PC-2000 Pro to try out as well to see how it would look. Didnt realize SVS has a 45 day trial where you can return an item free of charge in that time frame.

Geez, you're becoming a bit of a fanatic. That's great. Now you're in a better position to decide and start educating us.

Haven't had a review of an SVS sub in a very long time.
Post your thoughts.

Well I have spent a few nights now with the Micro 3000 and the PC-2000 Pro. I must say I love them both. The micro doesn't have the range that the PC-2000 does, but I am starting to learn that most things I listen to and watch I wont be missing that 23-16Hz range. With that said, both subs sound great. I am kind of shocked with the sound the micro produces for how tiny it is.

The PC-2000 is a fun subwoofer but much larger. I will likely spend another week or so with them both to figure out which i am going to keep. I have been re-listening to content with both. I will say the PC-2000 is more "fun" if that is a good description as it does bring more pressure to the room.

The absolute best feature is the app you can use to adjust the EQ on the subs. I couldn't imagine getting another subwoofer that doesnt have an app to control it.

Good times, eh? Have you tried running both together?

Nah, I have no plans on having two subs, so I don't want to know what two would sound like

Ha! Let us know how that VP100 sounds.

I will once I get it. Still waiting for the center channel to ship.

I don't want to influence you, so I won't tell you how you'll like it so much, you'll wish you had the 160.

Lol

So I received and have been using the VP100OW with my M5OWs for about a week now and I think it sounds great and blends well. I think I need to move the M5s about a foot lower on the wall for a little better sound at the main listening position, but I love the sound these speakers put out and the look of them. Right now they are set so the bottom woofer is at ear level, and sitting back about 8 feet from them. Axiom knows how to make great looking on wall speakers.

Also I think I might just keep this Onkyo receiver, as I havent noticed the clicking anymore when in use. 90% of the use is streaming shows and it doesn't click when doing that and music only if its loud. I would buy another receiver, but im looking at spending almost double the money for one with similar features and wattage.

With that said, i was looking at the QS10s to put on the back wall right behind the couch that is up against the backwall at some point, however I noticed the FAQ for the QS10s, it recommends a receiver with at least 100 watts of power. This Onkyo only does 90 watts at 8 ohms driving two channels with less per channel the more you have hooked up. Im guessing if I keep this receiver, I should consider the QS8s instead?

Keep the QS10s … big improvement over the 8s IMO … the 10W difference is not going to make a much of a difference …
If the receiver has pre-outs then off load the front at least the front 3 … the surrounds don’t usually get that loud.
If you like to play things loud then you’d need something with some headroom and/or much more continuous power.
This is where an ADA1000 or better makes a big difference.

Yeah there are no Pre outs on this receiver. Its a small space as it is though so it doesn't take much to get loud in the room. Thank you

Just looked up the spec's on your Onkyo. Here's the way I interpret it:

To me it looks like the 90W out at 8ohms is taken by a compromise between voltage and current.
To get that power into 8 ohms the amp's supply voltage has dropped significantly and at this point it's literally out of juice.

The headroom quoted 120W at 8 ohms gives me ~31Vrms while the 90W figure is at 26.8 ...
To me it looks like most of the specs quoted here are mis-leading.

Perhaps all the receivers today do this. Just that this one gives me enough info to understand what's happening
Personally, I'd dump this receiver ...

I'm looking at my last post ... as I mis-stated what I was trying to say. Must have forgotten to take my meds as that third line is stating just the opposite of what I was intending ... Power wise the voltage has to drop on max continuous power to have headroom. As dynamically you need to have a higher voltage to get that extra dynamic power. What I should have said is that the headroom is insignificant (i.e. the voltage drop is not significant enough) and is quoted, IMO, to present the higher number (s).

Think in a day or two I'm going to start a discussion on evaluating receiver specs and how to read them with an eye on real world performance. I've made attempts at this before but I'm still refining how to do it. Anyway ... just need to find some time to write up the first post ...

That would be an awesome post. My limited understanding is that an 11.1 or 5.1 channel receiver that's rated for 80W/ch, 2 channels driven, only has 160W of total power to split between 11 or 5 channels simultaneously. That was something I didn't know when I bought my AVR last year. But as someone who's probably never used more than 1W/ch ever, it probably doesn't matter in my use case.

Some of my fondest memories were at my uncle's house, with his McIntosh amps driving his McIntosh loudspeakers to ear bleeding levels...and the needles never moving beyond 5W.

Analog meters are not fast enough to display peek loudness ... they are design to do a moving average (think about 300mS but don't quote me ). They really give you an idea of the relative loudness. Your uncle's amp at 5W may have been pushing 160W on the transients peaks per speaker (depending on what you were playing) ... So, at 5W nominal into two speakers there is a good chance some of those transients were clipping unless the amp had enough headroom to hit 320W at 8 ohms into 2 channels. Even worse is that the speaker impedance is quoted as it's nominal impedance. It actually varies with frequency so to be clip free it's possible that the headroom would need to be even higher (I'm guessing that the 15db transient factor doesn't account for that ... it would be great if someone with a bit more knowledge could verify it),

Also most UV meter measure voltage and I'll assume for an 8 ohm speaker ... if the speakers was 4 ohms that reading would be twice as much

It depends on the McIntosh model. Some have the ability to switch between instantaneous power and peak-hold. The later models use current and voltage sensing with a chip to derive power and drive the meter.

Yes but i don’t think they had any of that back back then …
I’m not sure about analog meters but today that’s definitely true for the segmented bar meters

Mojo … what think about clipping because of speaker impedance vs freq variation?
I kind of doubt that the 15db headroom rule covers it. Do you think we need add in another 3db to be safe?

So what I gather from the last few comments is that unless you have a very large room where you need to drive the speakers really loud for good coverage, the wattage specs on a AV receiver wont matter as much if the receiver has the other features you are looking for?

I'm still trying to decide if spending $400 more for a refurbished AV receiver on A4L is worth it (Denon x3500h) for the room correction it comes with even though I would be giving up the 4k 120hz pass thru, which I likely wont ever use. Some people swear by room correction, others say its not such a game changer. I have a 9x10 space that is open on one side into a larger basement, but not sure how better room correction will do anything.

You've already seen how useful room correction is for your set-up. More advanced correction will clean up the sound even more.

If you are happy with the volume of your system today, and you are not hearing mids and highs breaking up, then I'd say you don't need more power. You have about 20 dB of headroom in your system assuming a nominal listening level of 82 dB at 8 feet MLP.

Well that was my first experience with it, but the Onkyo room correct set the cross over of the M5s at 200hz to begin with and it did get the cross over right on the VP100 this last time i ran it at 80hz. I changed the crossover to 60hz on the M5s and noticed a marked improvement.

Volume wise I don't think I need more. I can see how people really get into the fear of missing out with audio equipment. There's so much choice out there and features its hard to say if things are worth it to you or not without actually buying it.

Frankly, I actually like the sound that comes from the vp100 so much it makes me wonder if I should have gotten the M22s instead of the M5s. Not that I don't love the M5s, as I do, but its just one of those what ifs with this stuff. I can see why "audiophiles" are always looking ot upgrade their setup based on crazy number of options and price brackets equipment comes at. To me the speakers will be a purchase I will use until they break or outlive me. But its like with this receiver, if I keep this one, will I be missing out on better sound if I get the xt32 correction?

Fun times with this stuff.

I found a couple of online calculators to estimate power requirements. From the Axiom blog, it seems 15 dB headroom is a good conservative amount of spare power.

https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators#amp_power_required

https://support.biamp.com/Design_Tools/Amplifier_Power_Calculator

Both are problematic in that do you use the anechoic or the room sensitivity? There can be a 3dB difference between the numbers.

For me, 70 dB RMS at the listening position is uncomfortably loud, and my number is 2 W/channel to get my 15dB of headroom.

Honestly I am not sure what a comfortable listening level is for me decibel wise. I can say that the volume level I like listening to it at, it can get much louder without distorting. If you couldn't tell, I am not knowledgeable in the different terminologies.

A free decibel app for your smartphone can give you a general estimate of your usual sound level.

I have roughly the same equipment as you, with the M5HP and an Onkyo TX-SR393. I sit about 8 feet away (see the gallery forum for my setup), and have Dolby Digital enabled (which is ~3dB louder than stereo or stereo direct mode). I usually have the volume between 35-46. If I'm listening to music and I want it loud, I set it to 52 or 53, which corresponds to around 65dB at my seating position, average weighted. I might hit temporary peaks of 77dB at that setting.

I have the AVR's max volume limiter set to 65 so I never bother my neighbor who shares a wall with me. I've tried level 75 when the neighbor's away, and the couch is shaking and I can't even see straight, it's so loud.

At average listening levels I think you're safe with most receivers.

It's even ok, IMO, if you're clipping the transients lightly. Most people don't notice clipping till it gets fairly pronounced. It still sounds like the music and if cranked further many interpret it as just being too loud (and not as distortion). I'm fairly certain that if A/B'ed with a clean amp most would notice the difference once beyond a light clip.

So i finally measured the decibels and the average was 66 with peaks around 78. I dont see myself listening to things any louder than this. Im guessing I would be fine with the power this receiver is giving me if I end up getting the QS10s then.

Were you measuring in dBA or dBC? The dBC readings are about 5dB higher than dBA.

Regardless, your M5s and SVS are barely working in your smallish room.

You'll love the QS10s.

Im not sure, the app I used doesn't state which measurement it is. I will see if I can find a different app to see.

Thank you